Off Air... with Jane and Fi - How do you sex a cat?

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

The ladies are getting a bit competitive with the office over the postcards - so do keep sending them in. Meanwhile, Jane's been dreaming about a new, half dressed, co-host.Plus, Chef Graham Hornigold joins to talk about his Netflix documentary 'Con Mum'. Send your suggestions for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I couldn't believe they were doing this to us and it was a man to make it even worse. And then of all the men in the world, this is the man that my subconscious picked for this role. And I just have no idea why he was at the forefront or the bottom or whatever you however you refer to your subconscious. It was TV actor, former husband of Denise Welsh, Tim Healy. And he was going to do the podcast with us. Topless. Looking for your perfect place to call home? Lethbridge Land is shaping the future of our city with incredible communities like Crossings, River stone and watermark. Each neighborhood is designed with innovation, passion and responsibility to enrich your life today and strengthen

Lethbridge for tomorrow. From vibrant urban hubs to serene, coolly views, there's a community waiting for you. Discover the lifestyle you've been dreaming of in a Lethbridge land community. Visit lethbridgeland.ca and take the first step towards your new home today. Well I think Jane was thinking of Verona, the gentlemen of Verona, not Girona. The gentlemen of Verona were Italian. Were they Italian? Hang on a minute. I believe so.

I don't know what went on between them, but hey, you be you. I still think that is the most passive aggressive term in the modern world. You be you, in other words. Absolute plonker. But yeah, you carry on. Do you know what? Heady excitement in our house, because for the first time ever,

Dora I think might be on the cusp of a friendship. She's definitely got an admirer. Every single morning it's actually become, I was taking images of this poor old Muggy but now I've just stopped because the kids are saying, don't send us any more photographs of this, you're turning into a mad woman. Get a life mum. That's pretty much what they mean. But I come downstairs and there's this cat, a huge grey cat, waiting outside the back

door for Dora. That is not a friendship. That is threatening behaviour. That's what Barbara's dad started doing. I come downstairs in the morning and this great big Maine coon was just sitting there just staring down on them. What wanting visiting rights. Yes.

Yeah. Fathers for justice. Well, Barbaris Tide is fathers for justice in cat form. Really? Right. No offence intended there. It's often been remarked upon and he's not applied through the usual methods for visiting rights.

He completely abandoned her at birth. It's quite possible. Right, yeah. Same old story. He wasn't the only gentleman to be doing impregnation at the time. So, no, we don't like him, Jane, and I would really worry for Dora. What's Dora's reaction? Well, this morning she stayed asleep. She doesn't get up early at all.

She's very much a lady cat who likes to sleep in, so she doesn't surface until about 8.30. This objectionable moggy had been on the steps since 10 to 7 when I first observed it. Can't be certain it's male, I just don't know how you sex a cat. It's enormous, I know that much. But day in, day out, he's out there. It's out there, she's out there, look who knows, you be you. But I just, I don't know, I'm beginning to feel a bit threatened. Yeah, I wouldn't, I don't think that's a friendship. I think that is a problem looming. And I would get, our solution to the Babs dad problem is I have bought

some very effective nifty water pistols and they live by the back door and when we see Barbara's dad we get the water pistols out. Because cats on the whole don't want friends do they? No not really, I mean all of my three do really like each other and actually when... I do hope people enjoy this content. Is anyone still awake? We'll move on to geopolitics in a moment. Just in a tick!

There's not much going on in the world at the moment, but let me just squeeze out this story about Pinky Ponks and Cool Cat. So they were brothers and when Ponks died, it was so sad actually Jane, Cools went and sat in the place in the garden that Ponks used to call his own and he went there every day for about three weeks and you could tell that he was genuinely missing his mate. So I'm not sure that they form a friendship you know and then decided to do a podcast together and all of that type of stuff. But I think they I don't think they're as solitary as people like to claim. That's interesting. OK, well, other cat admirers, cat origins, cat fanciers, will be able to tell us what they think.

Yeah. And I'll definitely keep at least my children up to speed with everything that's going on. Or don't leave us out. At our back door. Don't leave the group out, please. You know when your children sort of initially respond to something you're interested in,

but then the response has just ebbed away through the week. That's just not much of a response. So if you're listening girls, can you... I know one's away, but one's only down the road. You think she'd get in touch? So do you ever get the AW response? That's when I know that my kids... OK, what does that mean?

Well, it goes to be, oh, look, isn't that lovely? Isn't that gorgeous? Oh, just to a quick... To a quick A-W. I think, OK, let's drop the subject, move on. It was when my children were quite a bit younger, at their most recalcitrant, when OK would be reduced to K. K, K, yeah.

What do you think? And sometimes just K-K, which I think, oh, we're not sure about that. No, definitely not. Anyway. But then they don't make any harm by it. So, thank you for your continued. What would be the collective noun for postcards? Let's ponder on that. Sheaf. Sheaf. Sheath. Oh sheath! For God's sake! But I tell you what, it's great because other programmes are getting a bit jealous. Yes. And we hate to be petty.

Hugo Rufkin's producer came over and said, what's all this then? It's our fan mail. It's our post, we said. Slightly smugly. And we're going to have one of those boards, aren't we? Like what they have in the crime detective dramas on wheels that we're going to wheel into the centre and instead of sticking up pictures of miscontents and malfeasance, we're going to put your beautiful pictures up instead. Which will really put a marker down. We are like a pair of ancient cats staking claim to our territory, basically.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention Howard and he's written a proper handwritten, it's like having a pen pal, he's in Germany 40 kilometres work round trip. What? It's a very long ride. And sung with the larks at five in the morning with nobody else around. Just think. So we're in Howard's ears when he's doing that. It's absolutely brilliant. Thank you for that. He's been an expat, he says, for a long time and listened initially to poorly performing state broadcast of the BBC. but now he's moved over and he's trying other things. Sorry, it's not the state broadcaster is it? It's sometimes assumed it is but it's not really. It's independent isn't it Faye? It's funded by us.

It certainly is and a lot of people resent it because it's this time of year when we have to pay the television licence. I know, I saw mine going out. Yes, I have to say, I pay it for the city as ours alone so I'm not complaining. Well I think never has there been a more important time to keep as many institutions going as possible that are trying to do independent news. I'm with your sister. I really am. Look what's happened. Look what's happened. I don't know how you're feeling about the current level of his orange-ness in the world, but do you know what? Do you

mind if we just park it for the next 48 hours? I've found myself properly, properly, blood pressure on the rise this morning, just because he's given that, he's been recorded detailing how pleased with himself he is in front of a group of Republicans at a private dinner and he's boasting about how all of the other countries are kissing his arse and I just, how he thinks that he deserves to be in charge of so many other people's lives if that narcissism, narcissism is what's driving him. Well would I cheer you up by reminding you of the story I've just told you about the dream I had last night? This is quite funny. Okay. No it definitely, actually it's a good point, it definitely took my mind off it but dear listener, after Jane had recounted this I

didn't say darling you just need a holiday. This is not healthy dreamscape. So I had a dream, I know this is so boring and you can stop listening. You can never listen to Offair again after any sentence that begins, this is the dream I had last night. But I dreamt that a new podcast co-host, well, if there can be a co-host when there are three of you, was going to be imposed on us by Times Radio and I couldn't believe they were doing this to us and it was a man to make it even worse and then of all the men in the world this is the man that my subconscious picked for this role and I

just have no idea why he was at the forefront or the bottom or whatever you, however you refer to your subconscious. It was TV actor, former husband of Denise Welsh, Tim Healy. And he was going to do the podcast with us, topless. Were we having to do it topless? No! But you and I, we were just so angry. Well I'm angry just hearing it now. I just do not understand why, I mean I know we've talked in the past Rosie said oh we'll get a dream expert on because I think best not to. In some ways best not to but what the hell is happening?

Or something that you need to do privately. Well, so that dream is, I mean, it's a work anxiety dream, isn't it? And it is because we are going to visualise the podcast eventually. I thought we weren't supposed to say that. Hot news will come out further down the line. I mean, it's the way that the world is going. And I've already suggested that it might be quite fun if we just always did it wearing beards or always wearing flat caps or we could have pipes or just something. It's just a little bit daft and in keeping. But at no point did you suggest it? I was just about to say at no point did I say either we were going to do it topless,

the internet broke and they literally couldn't fix it or we were going to do it topless, the internet broke and they literally couldn't fix it. Or we were going to have to do it with a man exposing his chest. I mean, I don't, I don't, I feel unsure asking this question but, I mean, have we seen Tim Healy topless in a movie or a TV show? I don't know why. This is just your imagining? Let's just check he's still with us. Oh no, I'm pretty sure he is. He's Matt Healy's dad.

Yes, yeah. What's up Rosie? I don't want to... We'll get back to her in a second. Such an intergenerational dream as well. No offence at all. I mean he's probably younger than me. How old is he Rosie? It's Rosie on board today because Eve's still not well, get well soon. Oh look, so there are, no this is it, can I just borrow your phone for a sec. So Rosie

has now found on a very very quick Google search a picture of Tim Healy half naked surprising Denise Welsh on Loose Women. So that's up on the YouTube so I think you've seen that. I haven't. I know I think that's because that's exactly what you've dreamt isn't it? Well it is but... That he's walked into a studio and revealed himself topless as some kind of a surprise. So I think... Let's talk about Andrew Carnegie. I can't go on anymore. I just can't. No, that's just really strange. It's incredibly unsettling. Now for reasons I certainly can't remember,

Andrew Carnegie cropped up on the podcast yesterday and we were wondering about the source of all the wealth he had because he was a noted philanthropist and I just had no idea that he had come up with something called the Carnegie Hero Trust Fund. I'd never heard of it either. No and what a fantastic initiative. This is from Julie. Thank you so much for this Julie. Like many industrial pioneers Carnegie's success depended on the hundreds of thousands of laborers that worked for him often in difficult and perilous conditions. Men and women died in terrible accidents in projects he was associated with.

In the last ten years of his life, Carnegie resolved to give away his wealth, an estimated 12 billion in today's money, through many philanthropic activities in both America and Scotland. One such project was the Carnegie Hero Trust Fund. It's still active to this day. He realised that when men lost their lives in industrial accidents, their families would suffer financially, especially long before life insurance. The Carnegie Hero Fund gave yearly grants to families of those who'd lost the main breadwinner through acts of heroism, and my husband's father was one such man. He lost his life in the Bristol floods of 1967. He entered a swollen river to save two young

adults from drowning. Whilst he did save them, he himself got swept away. My husband was only two, and his widowed mother had him and his older brother who had been born with learning disabilities to bring up. Now because of his brother's problems his mom couldn't work and the Carnegie hero fund financially supported the whole family until my husband started to work but his mom and brother all their lives were helped by the fund in different ways. I mean just how fantastic is that? Well it is but God how sad. Also incredibly sad. I mean, just how fantastic is that? Well, it is, but God, how sad. Also incredibly sad. Blimey, blimey, blimey.

You've got a two-year-old at home and you're still a decent enough man to think, no, those kids need saving, off I go. Both my husband's mom and brother have now passed away, but even so, my husband still has contact with the trust and I cannot stress enough the strength it's been to him throughout his life. I mean this is just such a slice of life I had no idea about this and Julie thank you so much and how brilliant that you were listening but just thank you for taking the time to tell us about it.

Well good things come out of Dunfranlon. Well they really do and what a brave man your husband's father sounds as well. I mean these you know these people who throw themselves into floods and try to help. I mean what an absolute hero and that money richly deserved. So God, I mean, honestly I'm absolutely amazed by that. I wish I'd known all about it but didn't. And do you know what? That is one of the genuine pleasures of doing this podcast. I just never know what's going to come in next. And actually to follow that up, this one comes in from Nicola Mansfield who says, long time listener, sometimes emailer, Andrew Carnegie quote, and I'd never heard this either,

to die rich is to die disgraced. Isn't that wonderful? It's made me rethink my will. Okay, not all about you but okay. My great-grandfather was given a Heroes Award by the Carnegie Trust after he and his son drowned. The bequest was paid to my great-grandmother and her four surviving daughters. The eldest daughter had her education paid for. She went on to set up clothes rationing via the Board of Trade and received an MBE. I visited the Dunfermline Hall, a museum, to see the register of awards. received an MBE. I visited the Dunfermline Hall and Museum to see the register

of awards. It was very moving. They give many awards to date, especially to survivors of road traffic accidents, terrorism and similar tragic events. My family owes a great deal to this benevolence. Very best wishes. Well, all hail Andrew Carnegie and any other stories to do with him, or actually other people in your family or you yourself or people you know about who've benefited from philanthropy because I think it's a very underrated virtue. It seems to sometimes be accompanied with a bit of cynicism now, you're only doing it for your tax benefit or whatever it is. But undoubtedly there are people who genuinely want to make the world a better place having enjoyed good fortune

themselves. Now David has corrected me, I'm so sorry to have got this wrong David, forgive me I have sinned. I'm from the Beverly area. You are really dicing with religion at the moment. Honestly and it's approaching Palm Sunday. In what way am I dicing with religion at the moment. Honestly, and it's approaching Palm Sunday. In what way am I dicing with religion? I wonder whether... Not being bothered about Easter. Which I'll always big up as a festival just for the sheer multitude of chocolate possibilities that surround me. I would argue you're being equally sacrilegious, actually.

Anyway, David is from the Beverly area children and wanted to let us know that well me in particular that Beverly Minster isn't a cathedral it is however the one or if not the largest non-cathedral churches in the UK it's also apparently bigger than 30% of cathedrals in England. Right it's a man's's example. Oh, feet, honestly. See, there you go again. Just, I was going to, I was going to genuinely ask, do you have a favourite cathedral? I do. It's Winchester. It's got the longest nave of all the cathedrals and there's me, a woman, saying that something is very big and very long. So I've just done a little bit for equality there Jane. All bass is covered. Right. And Winchester Cathedral is beautiful. Is it? Yeah I've performed an oboe solo in Winchester Cathedral

and it's got glorious acoustics. I was so nervous that day Jane, I was only about 12. It's got a, I mean that's what will always stay with me. You can almost not see the end of the cathedral because the nave is so long and there were just a lot of people there and I suddenly thought, oh, oh. Do you know, I think, okay, here we go. Performing on that scale is something that is very difficult for anyone to do and I think we do ask a lot of children, don't we sometimes? Do you think?

Yeah I do, I mean not that I was ever accomplished enough to play an instrument in front of loads of people but I could just about read out loud but even that I used to wrestle with so it was really daunting actually and I think especially if you, so I didn't, it was the first time I'd ever stepped out as a soloist, I'd always been in an orchestra and I really enjoyed that, that was absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, that's a bit different. And you were just surrounded by everybody else, you know, just running, running the race.

But actually stepping out as a soloist is very daunting. And some people really, that's their moment and they absolutely thrive. And interestingly enough, don't smirk because you might not find it interesting, it being an anecdote not about Liverpool I'm afraid. But Jon Snow also played, I think he also played the oboe weirdly and did a solo in Winchester Cathedral and we did talk about it once and the difference between us was so clear, it's clear on many levels I know, but he said it was one of the most exciting and fulfilling moments of his life and for me it was one of the most terrifying and let's change direction moments of my life. So isn't that telling?

Just two people can do exactly the same thing and of course you have a very very different reaction. But I remember when he told me thinking, oh okay that tells me something, that really tells me something about myself there. And I'll just say, bye! See ya. Was that when the oboe was put into the box and the lid was firmly closed? Oh, yeah, no, quite soon after that. I just don't enjoy this actually. It's too much for you know little little me. Well can I say I'm sure but you could if you if you were to pick it up now today you could play a tune on it? Oh I'm sure

I could play something but I would have completely lost the finesse and all of that and and I don't know the oboe is weird actually you've got to your breathing's really really key I don't think I'll be able to do the proper breathing anymore. It sounds very complicated. Not really but I just wouldn't be able to do it which is why it will never ever come out of its box again. Okay well she says that now. No I really. It wouldn't, it wouldn't, I don't want it to. Eileen is in Solihull. I can't actually remember now whether oh Solihull is that one of the areas affected by the bin strike in Birmingham. Sutton Colfield, we had a guest on yesterday, the MP for Sutton Colfield. Andrew Mitchell.

He said parts of his constituency were affected by it. I've got a feeling Solihull perhaps might not be, but anyway she just says, we're talking about going into other people's houses, I really like this. My late husband had a central heating business which involved him going into customers' homes to give a quote. Once he had to measure up a bedroom, where somebody was fast asleep in bed. People are funny, aren't they? They just say, yeah, come in.

Yeah, just do it. It's all right. They won't notice. I suppose we're all different. I guess if there was somebody just having a kip in the middle of the day and it was just profoundly irritating to the householder, then why not invite Eileen Slate's husband in to measure up for the central heating? Do you think you'd just wait a bit?

He would, yes. More of those would be lovely. We did have a theme for a while, didn't we, about things that the window cleaners had seen and also about the number of people who hid from the window cleaner, which is just quite weird because if you've said hello to them at the door, they do know you're in the house somewhere. If you let them in, they are aware that you're very much there. But I completely understand because actually, even though you're asking them to do a service, it's really weird when they can see you just going about your daily business inside your house. Well, because my window cleaner comes at breakfast time, there isn't a lot to see.

When you say that, it sounds like you've got a lot of visitors first thing in the morning. And a lot of dreams are taking place just before you wake up, Jane. So I would say actually, it's probably quite a beefy time of the day in the coffee household. OK, actually another one. This is a much more serious one about going into people's houses from Pippa who's in Sydney. Thank you for this Pippa. You prompted me to reflect and write about my experiences as a health visitor. I was trained in the 90s with the aim of working in paediatric palliative care. Now interestingly, despite entering numerous homes during my initial training, I never ever felt unsafe, likely because my visits were always scheduled. This contrasted

with one instance in palliative care in quite a tough neighbourhood where a family's ingenious advice was to put a tissue box on the dashboard to stop my car being targeted. I never felt physically threatened and I was always treated with respect and kindness." So there you go, perhaps that is a kind of sign that you're a representative of a service that is really important, just leave the box of tissues on the dash. Never heard that before but maybe that does work. A memorable part of my Health Vista training was a self-selected two-week community placement and I chose the Body Shop in Bristol. As they had a community project at the time, the placement allowed me to offer massages to various groups, teaching

mothers to do baby massage, connecting with the elderly and visiting the HIV community where physical touch was often missing. It was a truly privileged experience. However, there was one rather awkward moment when I had to massage a young man with a large and distracting penis tattoo. Right. Gosh. Sorry, I really had to process that for a second. You weren't expecting that. Nobody was expecting that. That's why I read it out. Nobody was. And I was just, so it's a tattoo of a penis, not a tattoo on his penis. I, well that was my question but I think it might, I don't know. You couldn't have a tattoo on your penis,

could you? Well you're asking the wrong person. You can. Gosh, how does Rosie know? Okay Pippa and Sydney, I think, I'm sorry, I thank you very much for taking the time to email once. You're gonna have to email again I'm afraid, just give us a little bit more on that. It's a tiny detail please, important though. I love the story about being a health visitor. I think these people, it's so important these roles and you just have, you come, it comes with a wealth of insight into the way people live or sometimes have to live and I think we can all learn from hearing about it. So our lovely GP on the live show which is Monday to Thursday available.

Times Radio App is a good place to start, it's completely free and it's between two o'clock and four. We always have a health section on the programme on Tuesdays with Dr Rachel Ward and she, in her jeez bless you. It's appropriate, good timing. Bless you. In her practice they are going to start trialling these new health visitors, community wellness health workers, but she was making the point that it is actually a really, it's a difficult job to get the right person for because you really are looking

for somebody from within the community who will immediately have an understanding of the community. So you can't send people into other people's homes if they come with an automatic barrier of difference. So actually that was proving to be the hardest thing within their practice to get the person right. And I really hope that there are enough people out there who want to do it and that it's decently paid, Jane. That would be good. It would be good. Because I think if you, perhaps if you are someone who meets one of these

community workers, maybe you don't need their help but you might know of somebody else in the area who could really benefit from it. So it's that kind of spreading intelligence isn't it, that it could be really really important. Yeah, but also just connecting all of the things. So connecting a piece of damp, you know, on your bathroom that is exacerbating your asthma and all of those type of things. It is going to be very valuable work if it goes well. Our correspondent in North Carolina, come in North Carolina correspondent Catherine, your discussions on feminism and equalism and this will be the last that we have on the subject because Lady Jane Garvey gave

a very powerful lecture on the podcast yesterday which is well worth hearing again actually if you've got a moment. A full lecture? I did, I was very impressed. But what did it lead to? A night of weird dreams? It had figures in it, it had dates, it had statistics. It was great. Your discussions on feminism and equalism have made me think more deeply about the subject

and the apparent backlash to the gains of women. I've raised a boy and a girl, now both in their twenties, so have seen it from both sides. And whilst I tend to side with the opinion that we shouldn't change the word feminism to equalism just because men don't like it or are put off by our seeking basic equality, I am reminded that we have to address the world's problems as they are, not how we wish they were. And that does mean addressing the causes of the current rise in misogyny and sexism in any way that resonates with these boys and men. Having said that, it is beyond infuriating that women

over the past 50 to 100 years have tufted out, worked hard in jobs and education, faced really poor odds, which are still poor, more CEOs called John than all women combined, women routinely passed over for a promotion due to bias etc. And succeeded in spite of all of that had been against them. Men and boys now acting like they've been badly done by and not also putting in the effort is extremely hard to take." I agree with absolutely everything that you say Catherine and you know I think when you really start thinking about it you realise the rock and the hard place still incredibly firmly in situ and navigating around those two things is always going to be difficult but I think having an open mind to both those positions can surely only be helpful.

Yeah thank you Catherine, I agree with every word as well and I really wish I'd been able to condense my thoughts as pithily as you. But there you go, you can't have everything. Funerals. Your discussion of funeral planning says, Lynn, who's in New Zealand, we are honestly getting everywhere today, aren't we? North Carolina, New Zealand. You just don't get that kind of thing.

Solihull. And Solihull, yeah. Your discussion of funeral planning made me think of my own efforts a couple of years ago when I faced a major operation. Cue a discussion with my family of the type of funeral I'd like, should things not quite work out as I'd hoped. Music, for some reason they put the kibosh on, another one bites the dust. You see, Lin, I am with you Raleigh's there. I don't think you don't really want that. I think if that's what

she wanted then it would be brilliant. Who wouldn't have smiled during that? You'll Never Walk Alone was meant to be played at each of my parents' funerals, says Lynne, but on both occasions the musician simply didn't play it. So, well, that's not good, is it? Not an oboe, sorry, Fee, but Acker Bilq's clarinet version of Stranger on the Shore would be good. Well that would be beautiful. That would be nice. And of course, as a Beacles fan, how about yesterday?

And I love this from Lyn, she says, I like hearing your theme tune start. What will it be today? Maybe some laughter, some insight, something serious and a dash of frivolity. From New Zealand, cheers, Lynne. Thank you Lynne. Well cheers to you too. I think honestly you've just got to stick to somebody's wishes and if they want to make you feel sad or they want to make you laugh or they want to raise a little bit of an issue in song then you've just got to go with it. I think it's very poor form of a musician not to play what they're told to play. It's not up to you. Blimey!

But the musician on taste grounds just thought, no, not going to do it, you'll never walk alone. Or probably, you know, if you've done it 14 times that day, you might be a little bit fed up. But tough titties! It's your job. You see, I quite like the idea of you'll never walk alone. I quite like walking alone. So the idea that I'll never do it is actually quite annoying when you think about it.

No! Leave me alone! To walk alone! Don't know! Who do you like a bit of this podcast played? Not this bit! Just very briefly because we've got a really interesting guest today and we need to make enough time for that because we can go on. And this is about cremation. This is from Celia. Thank you Celia. We did read out the email from the woman who had been slightly, felt a little bit got out by getting marketing information about the company Pure Cremation. And you can understand why it was a bit, shall we say, discouraging. Fast forward, oh no, hang on, sorry Celia, I'll catch up with the right bit of the email in a minute. I wanted to share two quite different versions

of organising events following the demise of some of those people close to me. I'm your age Jane and I lost both my parents at quite a young age, I was just 21 when my dad died and my mother was, and I lost my mother at 24. It just felt very weird when I thought that my brothers and I were orphans, and in those days, in the mid-80s, I just felt very swept up in the traditional approach, and my brother and I organised cremation services for them both, with their ashes distributed on the rose gardens in the gardens there. It didn't feel at the time that there were any other options available. Fast forward 35 years, after meeting my husband and raising two children we

faced the old age of his parents. They both lived well into their 80s and on one of their visits to us a couple of years ago they presented us with two credit card sized cards from a direct cremation company and said when the time came to call the number on the card they discussed what they both wanted had paid for a direct cremation service ahead of time to save us having to make decisions well that seems to me like a really good way of doing it and my father-in-law started to become increasingly frail and a couple of years later in early 2023 he sadly passed at the age of 91. We called the number and the service offered

was absolutely excellent." There you go. So I mean that's the whole point of a funeral plan isn't it? Yeah. It is. To just make it easy for your relatives and do you know what, I've already got one myself Jane, I don't mind admitting this, just because I was doing my will and I thought, okay, I'm just going to do everything all at the same time and I want it to be very easy for my kids. I think it's an interesting talking point actually when you are separated from somebody, you know, I think it's even more important to write down your wishes because it will be your children that really who

open the file and go through things and stuff so in an attempt to make it easy and also just personally I found it incredibly reassuring to just tie up all of these loose ends I don't feel it's morbid it's just something that I did on a Wednesday and it's all written down there and you know silly tunes will be played and nobody will have to worry that it wasn't what I wanted and I hope that's okay really. I think it is okay and it's also worth saying, do you remember an interview we did a couple of years ago now? It was with somebody very interesting, can't remember who or where they

were from but you don't need to have a funeral of any kind. No. If you don't want one, just say so. No, so you can't choose where you're buried. You can't just go and bury somebody in a back garden or toss them out at sea or whatever. You've been done for that, haven't you? But in terms of actually having to have some kind of a funeral or a service or anything you know after the body has gone somewhere, absolutely not.

Do whatever you like. Yep, so lots to think about there. Shall we end on something a little more cheery? Hang on one second. Well, I only have very serious ones left, I'm afraid, including azempic weight loss drugs where Melinda is upset. She's right. No, we'll talk about that tomorrow. We will, definitely. We'll talk about it, I promise, Melinda.

Jane and Fee, your chat about work experience reminded me of when I taught... Well, no, this isn't the valvectomy. No, it isn't. That made me feel a little bit upset. It isn't the valvectomy, and now you've said it, and now I've said it. Your chat about work experience reminded me of when I taught at a secondary school in Middlesbrough in the early 80s.

My colleague David taught art. He went to an appointment to have his sinuses cleaned, only to find a member of his tutor group in the room doing work experience. I don't know why that's funny, but it is. And the valvectomy is not funny at all actually. I'm sorry somebody witnessed it. I'm even sorry that somebody was having to go through it, but it was a part of work experience and that I find slightly heartbreaking. I think there are times when a work experience person might want to step out of the room, especially if they're only there for a day or two. I think that just seems very difficult, Jane.

It's definitely an odd one, isn't it? I always just find the closeness between Volvo and Volvo, for some reason, always makes me laugh. I mean, I need to, desperately need to to grow up and at some point I will. But they're very good cars, aren't they? There is now nothing that I can say that isn't going to sound like I'm making some kind of a sexual innuendo. Rosie is begging for mercy. Now Graham Hornigold's incredible story features in a Netflix documentary called Con Mum. Graham is a leading pastry chef, he's appeared on MasterChef on the telly, he's worked in Michelin-starred restaurants and he's founded a very successful doughnut company

called Long Boys. Now in 2020 he was contacted by an elderly woman claiming to be his long-lost mother. What followed is, to put it mildly, startling. The woman is called Dion Hannah. She was at that point in her early 80s. She told Graham that she was dying and really wants to make up for lost time. Graham and his partner Heather were expecting their first child at the time. Graham had made a good life for himself and things were looking pretty good. I asked him how that first contact from Dion was made. July the 4th, it was the first day back into the kitchen so we were in Boxpark Wembley which is the original site of the Long Boys and about half past nine at night we get an email, no joke, literally that's how it came and it just said the words you know I am DL Marie Hannah formerly Hornygold looking for my son. That was basically it. And your childhood had been a bit challenging to put it mildly, a tough

time with the people who did bring you up? Challenging to a point, not challenging with my step mum. She did everything that she could under duress essentially. But yes, there was one element, albeit that he was protective and he got us to a stage, you know, to be an adult at least. He fed us the clave dust, but it was a difficult house, yeah. But nevertheless, there was a gap in your life. You did not have what so many of us take for granted, which is a mother.

Yeah, I mean, it's like you don't go looking for it. It's just a nagging that's in the back of your head. And at no point did I think after 45 years absence that you were going to find your mum. So, yes, you yearn for it and you are curious as to your background because you get questions like, you know, do you have any allergies? Do you have any history of X, Y and Z? And you're like, well, I don't actually know because I don't know my parent in that sense so everything is new so

touch wood we're all good. Had you made an effort to find your birth mother? When I say effort it would be you know you've got your birth certificate you've looked you've done a Google search you can't find anything it's not like we've gone out and had somebody you know on the ground boots on the ground or gone to Singapore I think it was oddly and actually checked out an address which was on the birth certificate I believe or marriage certificate I can't remember. But that was as far as you were taken. Yeah. So that email I mean how did that make you feel? Well, essentially, it was just odd.

You know, you get the odd question, and I'm quite savvy in that sense that, I even asked, is it a scam, no tricks, no jokes? Because you don't expect to get an email from your mum after that period of time, do you? Well, I just cannot imagine. I mean, the truth is most people, which is why the documentary has been so successful, most of us have not got any idea of what that would do to an individual.

Yeah, well, it's because you can't really prepare for it, and it goes on to how... You know, it's a reaction to something which has sat on your personality forever because you've not processed it. So, I mean, we talk about toxic masculinity at the moment, but it's not really toxic in the sense that that's what we were brought up with. Now it's regarded as toxic because we don't take care of our mental health in that aspect and that's essentially what happened here isn't it is that you've got an unprocessed trauma e.g. the lack of a mother and then when they come in your responses are taken out of not taken

out of constex but but they're not something that you're you're familiar with. So how long was it before you met her? Three weeks. And when, where was that meeting? So we met her in a hotel in Liverpool and she was living high life, champagne and staying in the penthouse. Yes that was the first bit that where my gob was first smacked in the course of this documentary. And the explanation for her wealth was what exactly? So she said that she had various businesses around the world and that she was the illegitimate child of the former Sultan of Brunei and so she had wealth from that.

Didn't say that she was still attached to the family, said that they didn't speak to her and that she had multiple businesses and all the time she's on her phone and she's talking to people all around the world, literally all around the world, you know going to fruit farms, talking about soap and containers that used to go to Africa and things like this. All of these are and then you look you look them up and you actually see that that's how business used to be. So for 40 odd years that might have been the way it was done. You and Heather, both intelligent people, you did ask questions didn't you? Yeah, absolutely asked questions. Backed up by, you know, viable answers and, you know, solidified by the presence of a banker and a lawyer, which I know it seems like we don't speak much about them, but it's for reasons, you

know, out of my control, but essentially it's there. They're the ones that bring validity to the tale in our sense. Yeah, these are two, I was going to say characters, but they are legit a banker and a lawyer. Yes. I appreciate there are probably legalities around naming them, I get that. But they were often in conversation with this woman or in the presence of this woman when you met her. Every day, instructed by and with her. Yeah, I mean this is why people really do have to see this documentary because it does, it literally beggars belief the complexity of everything. How did this lady explain her absence from your life?

I mean, I didn't really process that element in the sense of why weren't you there. She said that we were taken away from her but I have no recollection of that obviously I was too young. For reasons why I don't really know. I can't actually I don't even know if I even asked that question because at the time I was just thinking okay I've just seen you in my life we We were going through Covid still. We had a baby on the way and she told me that she was dying. Yes, her illness was, was it ever completely sort of pinned down as to what it was she was supposed to be suffering from? Supposed to be suffering from bone marrow cancer and brain cancer.

But she, I mean what struck me was that she continued to have a prodigious appetite for fine dining and the best champagne. Yes, again, you know, that's in hindsight, you can see that, but at the same time in my mind it's like, you want to live out your best life, you're going to live it out. So when was the first time she said, basically, you know, can you help me out with a few quid, I'm a bit brassic. When did that happen? It was just a couple of days and it was just gonna help with the hotel bill and speaking, you know, at times with personnel from the bank, obviously banks were closed, so difficult to transfer large sums of money. You at one point are shown really absolutely being torn between

what you felt was your duty to this woman, your dying mother and your partner who had just given birth to your first child. I mean look anyone who's been there knows that that's when you really do need support and you are, well you just don't know what to do and in the end, what did you choose? Well no, I mean it was six weeks had passed after the birth and myself and Heather had a conversation about getting her out of the house. So it was decided that we would go and do this thing in Zurich, which was what she was talking about. And again, you you know it was solidified because previous to that she had been talking to a banker on the phone.

So we went. But when you say we went did you did you all go because this? No no no no myself and Dion we went. Yeah. And Heather was left at home. Dion is the name of the elderly lady. Yeah. We should say she was in her early 80s at the time all this happened. Yes, in her early 80s. Yeah. And your partner had just given birth and you go to Zurich with this woman to sort out some of our financial problems. Yeah. And a week turns into well, how long were you away in the end? the end? Seven weeks all day, seven weeks in total sorry, because she kept on saying that there was delays and we were visiting banks but at the same time there were occasions where you're fighting to get back because you're aware that obviously you need to come back but then in your mind you also can't leave what you believe to be dying or sick individual in a hotel by themselves in

Zurich when they're in a wheelchair. And during the time you're in Zurich you don't just meet with people who appear to be entirely legitimate but you're shown in to the private rooms, the secret rooms of these private banks. I mean they're all over Zurich I'd gather but these are places that you can't get access to unless you are supposedly one of the mega rich. Can you explain that now? I really don't know how she managed to get them to let us into the bank and into the private rooms to have a discussion About succession planning essentially

I don't know. I don't know how she got that in but again that's one of the nails that really did drive her home that that might actually be a possibility and that everybody in the family you know could benefit from that. So you felt it was something worth pursuing because you had this baby, a new life starting for you and your partner and this was a way of securing everybody's future? Well I mean it's not just our future, it's everybody within the wider family and everybody who she wanted to pass on her wishes to because she was talking to trust lawyers and you know there was a deep discussion about how that would be formulated. It would be that there would be no cash to any one person. It would be given out as a certain amount and set amount so it

didn't change anybody's life and it was only ever used as interest versus capital. So from my background you wouldn't know that unless you're sat in those types of meetings. At what point then did you and Heather begin to disagree? It was when we had the cars and... Dion bought you cars? So Dion had brought us cars and said that they were gifts for 45 years absence because she'd never bought anything and that she would pay them now and then she would pay them off later at a later date. So they were in our names and she was paying.

She was paying. They weren't just any cars either, were they? It was a Land Rover and it was a BMW, but essentially, you know, people buy people cars as a present for a kid. You know, it'd be a 500 pounds runabout, or if you upgrade, then that's what you're, you know, if'd be a 500 pounds runabout or if you upgrade then that's what you're, you know, if you've got the wealth to do that then you're going to buy a different

car aren't you? I have friends, associates who drive around in Ferraris but they're only 26, 27. So it depends on what scale you're talking about, you know. You can have people who are lying on the beach in Bournemouth or lying on the beach in Nanaboo off the back of a super yacht. That's just the way the world goes and I know it sounds like bad to say in that sense but it's not it's just that was the reality of what it was at the time. Did you like her? Did I like her as a person? Yeah of course I liked her as a person before before I liked her as a person yeah because you've only got six months with her and she seemed very, very sincere and genuine. Well, you'd have to be, she's very, very

good at what she does. Watching this then, Graham, I suppose I kept thinking, well, obviously, you know, the poor guy's been scammed here, she's not his mother, but then I thought, actually, you know what, they obviously, they look alike, they do look look alike there were some mannerisms facially similar and the really sad element of the story is that it turned out when you had dna tests done that she is your birth mother yeah which must have i mean what was that like that realization well i knew at the start you You never doubted it? No. I mean, for the sake of the camera, you can't see, but there's a clear colour difference.

So it's not something that I questioned, but initially when I met her, I asked if she wanted to have a DNA test, because you need to make sure that I am your son, if you really want to do this, to make sure that the family is looked after in that sense. But again, you know, you've got a lawyer in Bangalore dealing with that. You're not worried about that. You're worried about how much time have you got? You've got six months left and I've only just met you. So anything

else is a bonus in that sense. And I know that's hard for people to understand, but that's the reality of it when you're in that type of situation. If you know that your parents are going to be passing or perceived to be passing at any time, the last thing on your mind is what am I going to get out of it? Otherwise, what sort of person are you? These hotels she was staying in, the bills she ran up, who did settle them? Well, I've settled one, but only partially, and it later transpires that obviously the other principles in the piece were actually subsidising it. Yeah, one was a filmmaker, the other was a businessman of some description. I mean, this woman's capacity to dupe people is pretty much off the scale.

And I mean honestly Graham, I could not believe. I hate the fact that everybody eulogises about how good she is. But at the same time I understand. I don't think she's a good person. No, no, no, not good as a person. But you know, within her chosen profession she's very very good at what she does. I mean yeah I mean if she wasn't my mum I don't think she would have got me personally because it was the mum link but to see her because all these individuals obviously I didn't know that they were they were giving her money, because they've all been told, don't tell Graham, and they all have their own separate tales,

like Payne and Marcus wouldn't know about each other's business with her, those types of things. Do you see what I mean? As it came out. I do, yeah. So it's like the way that her mind must work is crazy. So do you think that she had just decided she needed a fresh target, she looked you up, realised that you'd become successful through your own hard work and thought,

oh, this is fantastic? I believe honestly that if COVID hadn't happened and lockdown and the airports were still open and there was still transient business for her, then we probably wouldn't have ever met. But it was the fact that she saw an opportunity in a difficult time. Exactly, yeah. It's beyond cruel actually what she did. I can sort of half, and I'm choosing my words carefully, half admire her skill at duping people that she didn't know. But to pick on you seems just astonishing. And how has it left you?

Well I was in a bit of a bad way at the time, you know, when Heather and our son had gone and... Heather went back to New Zealand. Yeah, Heather went to New Zealand to introduce our son to the family. I stayed because, you know, I had what I perceived to be a sick and dying mother. We got family here as well. And we had the businesses and they were just coming back online. So to be two weeks in quarantine, to not know whether or not you could get a flight back, which is why I didn't go. Because if something could have happened to her whilst I was away then I probably wouldn't live with myself or probably would have some resentment for the other side as well, wouldn't I? So, yeah, I mean that was a difficult decision, but at the time it seemed right and yeah,

I can't change that. What has happened since? Well tell us first of all, has she ever said sorry to you? Only as it is in the documentary but essentially it's a false narrative. Essentially it's just a way to bring you back in. Yeah okay, we should say that she doesn't face any criminal charges at all in this country. Current, yeah. Yeah, but she has been charged very recently with fraud in Singapore. Have you had any contact with her at all lately?

No, I don't know anything about that. Essentially, I've only seen what I've seen in the papers, so that's all I can really say on that. And you haven't spoken to her and does she have any contact with her grandchild? Not that I'm aware. Would you want her to? No. So what, where does this leave, I just feel that on behalf of, I don't know, it tells us quite a lot about the yearning that we all have for a mum actually and if you know like me you've had one

and you've never questioned it yeah it's an extraordinary privilege and watching this documentary really made me reassess all that if i'm honest what do you want people to take away from it well i want people to take away you know the value of well essentially it's's... part of it is... part of the piece needs to come across as you know bad things happen and you need to process them regardless of male toxicity or masculine toxicity you need to look inward and do some work to heal on all aspects of life, be it work troubles, money troubles, one of your family members has passed, you need to take the time to grieve properly

because people out there recognize those subliminal triggers within your personality and they take advantage. So regardless of who you are, what position you are, take stock and look inward because people will take advantage. But you can't blame yourself for what happened. No, I don't blame myself, but you attract those types of people and you have those types of reactions because you don't process trauma. So that's one of the things that I've learned from my side. The other thing is obviously that she's been using my name, whereas in my industry I'm known for shedding light and for raising

chefs and for you know giving food and being you know really you know quite successful in that sense. Whereas personally you, there's somebody running around spreading poison and destroying families and things like that. And that's another reason why we sit here, not because I'm worried about people looking at me and saying I got scammed because online scams or telephone scams or your card gets cloned people have more of an empathetic sense to it whereas if it's a face-to-face scam then nine times out of ten you're ridiculed which is why people don't talk about it and people don't call it out which is why things like Dion essentially can self-perpetuate because

they go unchecked. Have your friends been supportive? Yes, yes I mean of course there's those that are you know there's odd comments but I don't pay attention to because I know who I am and I'm confident in my own self and I have a good friends network and family around me so that's all we can do isn't it. And how are you as an individual moving on from all this? No I'm fine I'm back to myself. Stayed by myself so that I can do the works required so that I can be the best version of myself and get back to being you know in an ideal word my authentic self versus the version which we're required to be for society.

Graham Hornigold talking about that incredible life experience he's had. That Netflix documentary, very much available now, it is called quite simply Con Mom. And as you'll have gathered, the saga is far from over. I think actually what that really made me think about that documentary was just the longing that we all have for a mum and Graham fell upon the woman who said she was his mum because he just wanted a mum. Because it's a massive void that always needs filling. Yeah, a huge void. Anyway, really well worth a look if you have the time. It's 90 minutes long, it's not one of those things you've got to invest in for days on end. It will absolutely horrify you, quite frankly.

Unlike white lotus, feel free to offload on an ending that just really seemed to be, you know when you run out of time in an exam and you just go, blblblblblblbl, it was a dream. And it was just too much time invested for a very strange outcome. Jane and Fee at Time Stock Radio is our email address. What is the address that people can send their postcards to, Jane? Is it News UK, the news building number one, London Bridge Street, London SE19GF? Boom!

Well done, Fee. What? With Jane and Feegel. What? With Jane and Fie at the top. Because it's really annoying our colleagues. It is. Keep it up. Send a lot. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.