Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Hummus abominations - with Yotam Ottolenghi

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

Beetroot or chocolate infused hummus anyone? Well not in an Ottolenghi restaurant.The legendary chef Yotam Ottolenghi joins Jane and Fi to talk about his new cookbook "Extra Good Things" and reveals which cultural recipes he has "bastardised" and which he would never dream of touching.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Hello and welcome to Tuesday's Off Air with me, Jane Garvey.

And with me, Fee Glover. I really struggle with the and me bit. Can we just say with you and with me? Shall we do that? Just with you and with me. Okay, let's do it all again. Hello and welcome to Off Air. With you, Jane Garvey. And with you, Fee Glover. That's no good either. Dear okay let's just just we'll

just from now on we'll just crack on at the start of the podcast because no if you're bothered if you're bothered to listen you know who we are and let's face it most people aren't going to bother to listen so here we go welcome to our fair on a tuesday where we discovered that jane's favorite part of her body are her beautiful feet no i said a part of my body I didn't dislike, my feet. Stig Abel was somehow involved in this. I can't remember how or why. Did he say he'd had horrible feet? Yes, because he claimed, and I think this is outlandish,

that a foot fetishist had attached herself to him on social media and was asking for photos okay and he wanted this story i mean he wondered whether sending her some pictures of his revolting feet would put her off but you said correctly pointed out probably not no i don't think fetishes work that way i of course and i think you might remember who it was, a radio presenter on another network did once send me a photograph of his feet, which I thought meant that our relationship was taking an unusual turn and not one I necessarily appreciated.

Oh, dear. And every time I hear his voice now, I think, oh! Yes, I'm not surprised. Known to HR, I think is the euphemism. We got lots of lovely emails today and this one comes from Jude, who says, Hi, Fionn Jane, regarding Mr. Rinaldo. I'm wondering if what we're seeing here is him having a bit of a strop

because this is his first experience of not being picked for a team. Something I'm sure most of us experienced at primary school and were told at the time was character building. So tonight you'll finally be able to see Piers Morgan. No, it's tomorrow. Tomorrow tonight you'll finally be able to see Piers Morgan. No, it's tomorrow. Tomorrow night you'll finally be able to see Piers Morgan. It's literally... It feels like it's upon me now, Jane.

And we were just saying, it's so heavily trailed, we feel that we've seen quite a lot of it anyway. But I confess, I've gone from thinking, well, I won't have to see it because I know so much about it. I think I probably will watch it. Oh, you will be watching it now? Yeah, I think I will. Okay.

You think you will? We'll keep us in suspenders, won't you? My God. I mean, the jeopardy's just off the scale. Right, well, let us know whether you make a decision and then you can always change it, I suppose. That thing about what you learn when you're tiny is so important in sport, isn't it? But it just never gets through in football. I've stood on the touchlines at my son's football matches

and seen the worst of humanity on display in the parents, who would then be exactly the kind of people, I think, who would go and shout loudly in a stadium at adults as well. And the whole thing is just, I find it increasingly bizarre. Did you ever shout? No, not in the way, no, not in that kind of way. I mean, obviously I shouted encouraging hummus-based kind of love and attention sentiments. You'd chuck a pit of bread at a parent who'd offended you.

Yeah. But no, I haven't done that kind of sledging, which is what it is. Well, that is what it is. I always struggle a bit to know what's appropriate to shout at sporting events. And the only thing I could ever think of shouting at football was just, go on.

Yep. Go on! I've never had anything more in my locker, which, considering I'm not bad with words, is a bit disappointing, isn't it? There was one fantastic dad who just used to shout all the time, that's your ball, to whatever position the ball and his son was on the pitch. And just, you know, eventually lots of opposing team parents

were shouting back at matches. Because my children are so spectacularly unsporty, there was only one occasion which I had to witness the younger one in a netball tournament. And I dutifully plodded along because she'd never been chosen for anything in her life. And she really wanted me to be there. So fair enough. It was a big moment for me. In the entire match, she at no point handled or indeed came into any contact with the ball. At the end of the game, she came huffing over and she was bright red in the face, hair sticking to her head. Do you

think I was any good? And I just said, what? What did she say? Based on what? Crushing moment here. So I just said, oh, darling, I thought you looked fabulous. You looked like you were really up for it. And she said, yes, I was. I said, yes. Just the point is in a game involving a spherical object, at some point, you as a participant have to at least hope to come into contact with it, direct contact with the spherical object. Hence, that's your ball. That's your ball. That's your ball.

That is your ball. That's your ball. Yeah. Go on. Oh, dearie me. So we talked to Jotam Ottolenghi today on the programme, didn't we? And he was really delightful. And we had a couple of funny moments with him, which I wasn't really expecting.

But he's got a new book out, which is all about what happens in his test kitchen. Wouldn't he love to work in the Ottolenghi test kitchen? Well, interestingly and laughably, there is a suggested script for this podcast, if you can believe it. It says here, we started by asking him how he feels. Sorry, if he feels he's proved the naysayers who originally opposed him presenting Gardner's World wrong. Well, I wish we had started the interview with Yosemite Ossolenghi with that, because he would have been genuinely bamboozled.

I tell you what, that's a question he's never been asked before, and we're always trying to get one of those in, aren't we? Yeah, we really are. Oh dear, we've got a template problem, haven't we? We've got an issue. Yes, we have. We're going to have to go out in a flounce, probably start flinging slices of tomato around.

Well, it's inevitable, isn't it? It's such a high-pressurised environment. Don't take it out on a fruit. It is a fruit. Don't get me going. Well, I think, just for fun, which is not to undermine Yotam's interview at all, because it was really delightful,

but I think we should see whether it works. You start with that cue. Go on, read it properly. We started by asking him about how he feels. I still can't get this right, even when I'm pretending to. Anyway, we started by asking him about if he feels he's proved his naysayers wrong, the people who originally opposed him presenting Gardner's World. Right.

Okay. That's brilliant. Okay, and i won't say almonds or almonds brilliant what what would you say just do a natural pronunciation okay i'll say almonds almonds no almonds he said they do like a hybrid maybe don't don't confuse the issue anyway sorry let's go back to being veg forward what does that mean so essentially it's risk it's you know it's not it's not a vegetarian cookbook um but it's got it really has a focus on vegetables and i've always had i've done this for many years so um even in my restaurants the vegetables are at the very center of the menus.

And that's still the case, even in the cookbook. So I love vegetables. I think they're the best thing you can eat. But many people eat vegetables without being totally vegetarian, without being vegetarians. And this book, like all the other books that can be before it is really focused on vegetables and how you can really extract flavors out of them or inject them with flavor so all the extra good things which we can talk about are there to really get that those vegetables tasting especially good okay and the ot then, this is the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen. And this is an actual place, isn't it? Yeah, it's the place. It's a place on the Holloway Road in London. And essentially, it is where we create recipes. There's a team, there's a team of about five or six recipe testers.

And this is where we test every single recipe that goes into books and into a newspaper column that we publish and also recipes that are tested for the London restaurants and delis, products, et cetera. So it's kind of the heart of the Otolenghi Hub in terms of recipe creation. And it's really fun. So as as you can imagine delicious things are happening but also really wonderful conversations about like you know what's going to go with what and what we're going to what are we going to serve

this Christmas as opposed to last Christmas so it's totally it's always it's always it's always about food it's very geeky, technical conversations, but also very, you know, it's what we want to eat. It sounds amazing. Can I just ask you something about the universal palette, though? Because if you've got lots of people who are taste-testing things, you know, everybody likes slightly different things, more heat, less heat, more salt, more sour, whatever, whatever. But sometimes when I watch those cookery programs, especially MasterChef, actually,

they always talk about someone having a good palate as if there is one kind of benchmark. Is there? I tend to think that there is all sorts of cultural variants and personal variants, but I do think there's something about a really good, delicious dish when it kind of just hits the spot that is universal. With all the caveats of, you know, of all the things that are relative and how different we are from each other, etc. I do think that when you hit on something which tastes incredibly good, you know it. And so I would, I tend to agree with that, you know, with the meat, it's got an optimal

cooking level, vegetables have their kind of also, I guess, optimal to cooking level, but also how much you can extract out of them. So when you have when you taste something, which is well done, and is balanced, you recognize it, and you know it. something which is well done and is balanced, you recognize it and you know it. But when was the last time your socks were absolutely blown off by a fantastic new combination of flavors or ingredients? So it's not necessarily something completely new every time you test something, because there is a limit to how much you can innovate in terms of like putting one thing um against something you've never had before that doesn't happen very often but the surprise or the or the innovation or the moment where you taste

something you go oh wow that's wonderful that happens every single day when you we try things and i mean that's the beauty of beauty of these kind of creative environments. And by no means, the after-lenght test condition is not the only place where recipes are created. It happens everywhere where people create recipes for books or for any other reason. But, you know, sometimes it's the smallest, minor variation that could make a huge difference. I'll just give you one little example today, just because it's fresh. I just had it a few hours ago. I was at the test kitchen and we have one of the recipe testers called Verena. She's a very talented baker and pastry

chef and she created that. I don't know if you know, but there's certain desserts that are called, it sounds terrible, but it's really good. It's like self like self-saucing self-saucing dessert is a dessert in which part of the rest of the of the of the pudding is not completely cooked so it's a bit of a sauce and so she created this thing which had which which was it it was an almond based milk chocolate pudding pudding. And before it goes into the oven, after you create the batter, you pour over a combination of cream and water, and that kind of accumulates in the bottom. So the bottom doesn't cook completely, so there's this kind of runny sauce going on in the bottom,

which makes everything so delicious. And that does – it was kind of an eye-opening moment because I had that, and I go, oh, gosh, that is an eye opening moment because I had that and oh gosh that is so good I have never had that I had all the flavors together but not this particular thing and it was utterly delicious. Can I just ask you a question on behalf of people who have sort of a few herbs knocking about but can't usually access fresh herbs really quickly or just don't have the time to go out and buy them so can we substitute for example fresh thyme with just a bit of dried thyme does it work the same way and can we miss

ingredients out if we just don't have them totally and i mean people have always talked to me about you know you look at your recipes they've got such a long list of ingredients i mean do we do is it really absolutely essential to have everything there and i always say like you know it yet it's not the case you can substitute things so there's certain things you can omit uh you can play around and and i mean i kind of create a benchmark which is the the benchmark with which everything goes according to plan but then when you take one or two things element out you should you're also going to be pretty happy when you try things i've just spoken to someone who said oh you know i don't like chilies i don't like heat so i cook all your recipes that are even the ones that are all about

the chilies i still make them and they're still perfectly fine and delicious for me so i i think it's really okay as as long as the ingredient is not included in the title of the recipe, that's what me and my job office say, you're okay. Can we play Ottolenghi roulette, whereby you just pick a page number and we'll talk about the recipe. So you can go anywhere between page 27 and page 212. Pick a number. Do I do that? Yes, please.

Oh, 69. 69. Unusual number to pick. Come on, Fee. Jane, don't. I just came into it. Well, it might be his date of birth. You never know. 1969.

Oh, I see. Why did that come to that? Let's just press on. Move on, everybody. Roti with golden rasam. I don't even know what golden rasam is. Great pick. What is it? So rasam is a broth that comes from India.

And it normally would have tamarind and lots of spices. And in this particular case, we use yellow tomatoes. You can use red tomatoes, but it's just how wonderful it is with the turmeric and the other kind of yellowish spices. And it's got heat. It's got ginger. And it's really, it's kind of like in the hot weather, but obviously it's wonderful also in the winter. It's got that kind of heat that really penetrates and makes you sweat and with lots of heat, lots of chili, mustard seed, et cetera.

And obviously the rotties that, you know, people would know rotties, it's a wonderful flatbread that you kind of dip. It's got, our rotti has got ghee, so it's cooked with ghee, which is clarified butter. And you kind of dip that in your golden rasam or the rasam broth with the turmeric and all the rest. And it's just wonderfully delicious. It looks beautiful. We have some love for you, Yotam, from Aileen. I cook Jotam's courgette frittata with paprika rather than cumin. I hate cumin and it's still a showstopper, says Eileen. So you're right, people are just mixing and matching and doing what they like with your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can

navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone. Anonymous asks, after years of using dried curry leaves, not a patch on the fresh, which I've just tried. Should I just chuck the dried ones in the bin and only use fresh from now on? You shouldn't have bought them in the first place. So the dried curry leaves are just, they just don't do anything. It's as if they've got no flavor whatsoever. So either fresh curry leaves, which freeze really well,

so you can buy a bunch and keep them in the freezer, or just like so many other ingredients, as we've established, you can do without them. I wouldn't get the dried curry leaves. It's one of those things that really don't work. I don't say that about many ingredients. Many of them dry well, freeze well, go well in a can, but not curry leaves, unfortunately. Thank you.

If you only had a fiver and you were cooking dinner for four, which of your recipes would be a go-to one? Oh, you know, there's an opening, the opening recipe to the book is called beans on toast toast but it's not any beans and it's not any toast it's um it's a kind of like uh it's a kind of slightly uh spice take on so it's butter beans that come from a jar or it can come from a tin but you can use other beans as well and there's a kind of a mixture of cheese cream and curry that you put on top and you toast it. And whilst the toasts are being made and all the butter melts, the cheese melts,

and things go nice and crunchy, you make a quick pickled onion, which is pickled onion, red onion sliced with a bit of cider vinegar. And that pickled onion really happens within minutes. Obviously, you can make a jar and put it in your fridge, but that acidity really cuts into the richness of the beans. And it's a quick meal and it's really fantastic.

It's ever so pretty. It's like 15 minutes. It's beautiful because the onions go the most stunning, almost kind of neon pink, don't they? That's right. So that looks very nice. You've got kids, Jotam. Do they eat as wide a diet as would be available to your

customers in your restaurants they don't like coming to my restaurants unfortunately um so we have we have like the only time i can get them into one of the restaurants is in the morning like for breakfast but and then you know they'll have the scrambled eggs and you know but they they find this food too intense there's too much going on and they would say that i mean it's not like they're they're too picky i mean they eat vegetables and they're okay but they're like they can't stand the taste of preserved lemons and if something is like full of green bits lots of chopped herbs that puts them all so um yeah so that i'm really reassured to hear that it is reassuring i i do

want to know though would you ever take them to such thing as a fast food emporium your term they have you know um we've had a couple of those i live in camden so on the high street really just around the corner from us there's a bunch of um fast food restaurants and they they really gravitate and it's a it's a battle i mean we we kind of like i go okay once a month they can go to one of them i won't mention any names but they they get their fix but you know actually i mean they are good is with everything that i'm saying i mean if i love making rice so rice or fried rice with fried onions and some and some nice vegetables, they'll eat that. I think what I learned with kids, the best way with kids is just to give them more of what they

want. So I mean, obviously, they like starches, and they like pasta. So you just you just work with that, then you just add more thing, you load it with other nutrients. But rather than just make something that they would never touch, kids always win. Yes, well, they do. You've got restaurants. How are they doing? And are you concerned about how they'll fare over the coming months? So far, touch wood, things have been OK for us in terms of the restaurants have been busy. I mean, we've been struggling on all kinds of fronts in the sense, I mean, like all other

restaurants and so many other businesses in this country, we've been struggling on all kinds of fronts in the sense, I mean, like all other restaurants and so many other businesses in this country, we've been struggling to recruit and maintain staff. This is a well-known and documented problem. And many people in our industry are campaigning now to open the country to more immigrants, qualified immigrants, people that can work in kitchens and in restaurants in general. So that's a struggle. Obviously, everything is more expensive. So far, we're doing okay. But I am worried about next year because I think people are going to feel this crisis even more, the cost of living crisis.

And I am worried about how we will be able to sustain the businesses successfully with all these difficult conditions. On a completely different tip, we were discussing hummus in the production office before coming on air today. I don't know whether you have strong opinions about it, but do you like the pimping up of it? You know, you can get every type of hummus now, can't you? With the red pepper, the roasted garlic, the barbecue flavors, lime and mandarin on top. Is it right? You know, this is a thing. So it's a cultural thing. So I

grew up with hummus. Hummus is a staple of both Palestinian and Jewish residents of Jerusalem, the city where I grew up. So I love hummus and I love a really good hummus and I really don't like all these mixes. But, and that's a huge but, I realize that this is of my culture and of my heritage. So this is why I'm quite protective, but I've done my share of bastardizing the cuisines of other places all over the world. So I can only speak for myself. But if people want to play, they can play. But I would never touch such a thing, especially not a beetroot hummus or chocolate hummus. I think these are just abominations.

Well, I totally agree with you there. Yotam Otelenghi. And that hummus, I am quite a fan of a good hummus. But they really do vary. I'm a little bit like you, I don't like the titivated ones, I really like the basic, proper good hummus with lovely flatbread is delicious but that beetroot and chocolate abomination

should never ever get to any shop. Yeah I was very glad that he had some kind of stern thoughts about hummus Impressive man, Extra Good Things is the name of his latest cookbook. I also just really liked his advice about you can leave any ingredient out apart from one that's mentioned in the title. I think I'm going to take that with me to my grave.

We've had some really lovely emails. I'll leave you to read the one from Sian. Can I just do the one from Barnes? I don't know whether that's a person or a place really, whatever uh jane and fee catching up with podcast this morning i too thought airplane mode could only be used whilst on the airplane so pleased to know it's not just me displaying it ignorance friendships a now ex-friend of mine said friendships were either for a reason a season or a lifetime so very. This particular friend and I met at Twins Club, both first-time mums with two babies each. We were friends for 17 years through the ups and

downs and in-betweens. She was my rock and I believe I was hers. Our friendship ended without discussion or exploration. Life's events took over and we went our separate ways eight years ago. About four years ago, we bumped into each other. It was perfectly amicable. We hugged, we exchanged pleasantries, and we wished each other well. I do have three M4 friends, though. As a woman, I believe it's vital to have solid female friendships and drip feed this message to my young adult daughters. Men may come and go, but those sisters are ever present. So very pleased that we now have more of you for people who are thinking what is an m4 friend it's just something that a friend of mine once explained to me it's not my

idea but it's the notion that you have at least one friend during the course of your lifetime who if they were driving down the m4 on their way to a glorious spa weekend and you phoned and said, I'm in trouble, I really need to see you and have a drink, they'd turn around and come back. Well, it would depend on whereabouts on the M4 I was. It's not you, don't worry. OK. Or indeed how good the spa was.

Let's bring in Sian's email. She's very nice, this. I've been catching up with the new show and I listened to Kayleigh's account of being jilted on her wedding day. Now that was a long time ago. Really weeks ago. But if you can go back, that was I think in our first week at Times Radio. It was such an incredible

time because we were trying to embed ourselves in here and get used to everything. And the government was falling apart. Every day. Yeah, prime ministers were changing and people were resigning. It was simply never ending. Anyway, in the midst of all that kerfuffle, we did interview this wonderful woman called Kayleigh and she had been jilted on her wedding day.

Sian says, I was struck by how brave Kayleigh was to own what must have been a devastating situation and to continue to do so in the aftermath, which, as she stated, is arguably the most difficult time when everyone else has returned to their normal lives and she's still very much adjusting to her new normal. I made the decision last Christmas to separate from my husband of almost 10 years, with whom I had two young children, after which I'm only now beginning to understand was an emotionally abusive marriage. Making that decision to leave took a long time and

many, many months of anguish and guilt and distress, not least due to the fear I had about the potential impact on my children, my ability to cope both practically and emotionally, and what I would lose. Fast forward to 11 months later, and I've now moved across the country to be closer to my family. I've got a new job, I've bought my own home, and I'm starting to build a new life for me and the children. I'm beginning to find the person I used to be and didn't even know that I'd lost. But I found it's taking time to come to terms with the grief of what I've lost. But also, more importantly, what would have been. I am plagued still by the feelings of never being good enough. But Kayleigh's story has caused me to reflect on what it means to celebrate yourself

and to make memories that you do want to keep with you forever. How grateful I am, she says, for the friends who've travelled to see me in my new home and regularly keep in touch to see how I'm doing. I'm rambling now, but thank you for this welcome reminder, says Sian. Listen, any rambling is welcome here because we're two of the great ramblers and we can take it, can't we? Very much so. And it's never a ramble. It's a life experience

in our book. So anything that you'd like to tell us about it is janeandfeeattimes.radio. Jo got in touch. Jo is a survivor of bereavement by suicide. But we did have another email as well from someone who wishes to remain anonymous. Because I referred to that terrible tragedy yesterday in the podcast as committing suicide. And I fully understand that's not the form of words that people would wish to use anymore. Died by suicide is a more understanding phrase to use. So my apologies for any offence caused. And it's always a delight when you point things out to us. So please don't be shy on that front.

We've got a bursting to the seams programme for you tomorrow. Hope you can join us. Who's on? Who's in it? Wellness Wednesday and the gong will ring and we're going to talk tomorrow about whether standing up is actually a better thing to do in your workplace than sitting down. I can't really, really going to try and keep

an open mind for that one, Jane. No, I'm not going to bother. But anyway, that's one of the things we'll be talking about. Also, we're chatting tech with young Katie Prescott, who's always a very, very interesting guest. Love chatting to her on a Wednesday. And our big interview is with the novelist Emma Donoghue. Now Now she wrote Room and one of my favourite novels of the last couple of years, The Pull of the Stars. And she is the woman behind the film The Wonder, which is just dropping, I think, on Netflix this week and is in some cinemas as well. It stars Florence Pugh and it's about one of the Irish fasting girls. I just thought it was absolutely riveting and also beautifully filmed, but also just there's a lot to talk about around that subject.

So Emma Donoghue on the programme tomorrow. OK, goodbye. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can. Monday to Thursday, three to five on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can, Monday to Thursday, three till five, on Times Radio. Yeah,

embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye. Voice over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings.

So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility.

There's more to iPhone.