Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I am my cat's Queen - with Dawn O'Porter

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

Jane and Fi discuss pet grief, intimacy with pets and writing sex scenes with writer and former TV host, Dawn O'Porter. Her latest novel, 'Cat Lady', is out nowIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Emma SherryTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Off Air with me, Jane Garvey. And me, Fee Glover. And we are fresh from our brand new Times Radio show, but we just cannot be contained by two hours of live broadcasting. So we've kept the microphones on, grabbed a cuppa, and are ready to say what we really think. Unencumbered and off-air. Hello and welcome to Off-Air with her, Jane Garvey, and her, Fee Glover. Right, so it's been another

hectic week. It's the end of our third week at Times Radio. How would you assess things this week? We were sort of half hoping for quieter times, but once again, stymied. In fact, today has been relatively, I don't want to say run of the mill, it was a really enjoyable programme today, I enjoyed it. But it was not so driven by events at Westminster, was it? programme today. I enjoyed it. But it was not so driven by events at Westminster, was it? It didn't have the same kind of jeopardy that has accompanied nearly every other day in modern British political history since about, oh God, July, June. Although there was one point this afternoon where we thought that Vladimir Putin might make an important announcement. So maybe it wasn't all that run of the mill, actually.

There was a moment of tension around about ten past three. But if you've stuck with us, then I hope that you think there's been some improvement just in our It wasn't all that run-of-the-mill, actually. There was a moment of tension around about ten past three. But if you've stuck with us, then I hope that you think there's been some improvement just in our professional... Professional what? Professionality. Professionality. No, that's not a word. Professionalism.

Professionalism. In our levels of professionalism. Especially around the hard junctions. We've been trying hard for those, haven't we? Well, I'm not sure we've really mastered anything. But I think there's a certain appeal to a more ramshackle approach to broadcasting isn't there? Well we're hoping we really do. Anyway what was lovely

today was that we had a real life guest who actually shared some space with us which was much appreciated. So Dawn O'Porter who we're going to hear from in a minute but one of our themes and it runs throughout her novel doesn't it was about pet grief and this is a really lovely email from Jo.

Do you want to read this one? I was intrigued when I heard that you were going to be discussing pet grief today, says Jo. I wasn't a pet owner, no pets as a child or as an adult until four years ago. I got a text from my then husband of more than 11 years, informing me that he was leaving me for somebody else. Yes, I realised the text message aspect of this is a discussion topic in itself. I, after a period of time, looked for a new partner who, like him, shared my passion for fell walking. Sadly, what I found were quite a few men who claimed that they could walk up mountains, but it turned out that they couldn't.

There are only so many times you can wait for 20 minutes at the top of a mountain waiting for a man to catch up. So I decided my solution was to get a dog. Coco the Cockapoo is not only a much better fell walker than my ex-husband or any of the so-called 20 minute club, but she is far more loyal and more loving than my ex. We're now a unit in walking and in life, always pleased to see me and the best company. Of course, I am planning for Coco to live forever. But if that shouldn't happen, my grief will be quite immeasurable. I try not to think about it and the gap in my life that will result when she's no longer with us.

Pet grief, at least in my case, will be real. That's from Jo in Cheshire. She's anticipating pet grief. I mean, she hasn't actually been there yet. Well, if she can stride up a mountain or fell faster than your average bloke who probably has said on his application form that he's super fit. There's a lot of men on those apps, Jane, dressed in Gore-Tex at the top of mountains. It is, it's a favoured approach So I think she's a canny lady and thank you

very much indeed for joining in our conversation. We also tried to discuss titles for autobiographies because we were talking about Prince Harry's book which has been revealed today. The title is Spare. Maybe Haunting I've decided that's the right adjective for that title

Haunting? Yes and as Kate Borsay pointed out on our programme something of a challenge to the royal family I mean we've got a hint just from the title this won't necessarily make for easy reading down at the palace or any of the other substantial homes

enjoyed by members of our royal family. Yeah we are both going to enjoy reading that when it comes out. Read it with an open mind. Oh, we'll read it with an open mind, but we'll certainly read it. And I think the idea, I mean, Kate tried to claim that she wouldn't read it. I think we'll test her on that, won't we? As we get to know her better, we'll lay some traps.

That'll be a kind of collegiate thing to do in a new job. Sounds very sisterly. We'll definitely go for that. So Dawn O'Porter, who is... She's good fun, Dawn, but she was... I'm sorry to say, she said herself she was a little hungover, didn't she? Was that Jamie Oliver just making an appearance? Did it? Apologise for that.

There was a slight gurgle. Well, I had to try the rather heavy carbonara. I know. I wouldn't... Even if I'd walked up a fell and down, I would never choose a carbonara. It's not my favourite pasta at all. I should have said to Hannah Evans who came in,

I don't like gnocchi, but I got the gnocchi. Anyway, look, it's early days for us here. We're trying to make friends with people. Yes, what were we saying? Concentrate, gather, gather. She was hungover because she'd had a book launch party last night. Terrible noise. Only those of you with

really acute hearing will have heard that digestive episode. Gastric moment. I don't think it's really the PR coup Jamie was hoping for. No, well, I don't think it is either. Faster Dreams is the name of his new venture. Faster Dreams. Faster Dreams.

right so back to dawn reporter who was in to talk about her novel it's her eighth book it's her fifth novel it's called cat lady and i think it's one of the actually i just didn't know what to expect from this book i read it all in one go last night i genuinely enjoyed it well done i know well you know how sometimes you spend a whole day just gawping at screens and you think, I want an old school evening with a nice mug of tea, a sofa and a bloody good book. And you got it. And that's what I got. So, yeah. So she started by telling us about the boundaries or lack of boundaries that she sets for her lovely cats, Myrtle and Boo. I'm just all in I love it when they walk across me when I'm sleeping when I feel their warm hot bodies against me I love I love the cats in the bed. Do you? Yeah I really do. What about that you know that ridiculous early start

they have at about 10 to 5 in the morning? Yeah that can happen but we also just rescued two dogs so the cats aren't really in the bedroom at the moment because they're just so angry with us so um but i kind of miss them i miss that you know tapping on the face my my boy cat did um drop an actual rat onto my pillow at three o'clock in the morning a few months ago heartwarming i know so i i did have a moment then when i was like right that's it no more pets in the bedroom but then we just we just we just love it so the door always gets opened although he actually opens the door my cat he's worked out how to open the bedroom, but then we just love it. So the door always gets opened. Although he actually opens the door, my cat. He's worked out how to open the bedroom door. You've got a clever one in mind.

He's got an important announcement. No, well, I just love your dedication at the beginning of the book. Should I read it out? Yes, do. So the book is dedicated to Sniff, Nin, Tikku, Minu, Aka, Fluke, Twiglet, Suska, Lilu, Potato, Myrtle, Boo, and all the pets I've yet to meet.

It is very delightful. Well, they all, I had very special relationships with every single one of them. Dawn? No, Twiglet, Myrtle, Boo, and Shushka are still alive. I had to hand that in because my deadline was coming.

And a week later, we rescued two dogs. I feel really bad, but Meatloaf and Puffin didn't quite make it to the dedications, but they are very much in our lives. Okay. Now, I have to be honest with you. This novel wasn't really what I expected it to be. Right. And I really enjoyed it.

But there were some twists and turns I just wasn't prepared for. And we should say that at the centre of the story is a very vulnerable woman called Mia. And she has a very particular and very sincere and deep relationship with her cat. Now, that is something that is mocked in society. And it shouldn't be, should it? No, I find it really odd. I think as a cat lover myself, I had a cat before I was married and before I met Chris and had babies. And this cat was such a significant part of my life and something I was really, really proud of. Had times when I literally had no work and couldn't afford to feed myself and borrowed 20 quid off a friend and spent it on cat food.

And I used to feel so bad about myself, but just was so proud that this cat had no idea that I was broken. It gave me a real feeling of self-worth along with that unrequited, not unrequited, wonderful love that you get from an animal. So it's been a long day. And I just see it as such a positive thing in somebody's life. But for some reason, women with a cat, if they're single, there's this negative connotation that is attached to that, as if that's icy or coldness or unlovable in some way. You've hit on something with me that's a raw nerve with me, so I cannot get another cat because then I will be just defined forever and it really terrifies me.

So I'm sticking with the one really unpleasant cat for the time being. So you think if you had a companion fedora, so if the cat's outnumbered you in the house, that would define something? That's me finished for good then. Okay. I shall never marry again. I think you should go the other way and just embrace it and just keep getting them.

Do you, Dawn? Yes. It's a sign of a big heart. Well, I mean, that would be ridiculous in my case because I don't have a very big heart, as Fee's about to say. But there's also a pet grief is something that happens to all of us who've kept animals and have formed a relationship, however peculiar it might seem. It's blooming awful.

It's horrible. When they go, isn't it? Yeah, it's really upsetting. And I think that there's my cat died in 2020, 16 years. My dog died earlier on this year. And they were two earth shattering experiences. I actually weirdly that particularly with the dog I really I just when when my cat died I immediately was like oh god I need a cat and I I had one within a month

and it took me about nine months to be able to even consider getting another dog but I've experienced like grief in my life losing humans and in that moment where it happens it's the same feeling it is just pure grief it's so upsetting and I was very lucky that some of my friends understood how sad I was and really rallied around but there's a lot of people who feel that they it's not worthy of you know it's not worthy of people's attention but this phrase it's just a pet or just a cat just a dog is just not fair because it really defines your home and you put so much effort into having these cats and I wanted to shine a light on pet bereavement and just remind any people who maybe don't love animals that when someone that

you know loses a pet they're really really sad and you should take care of them the thing that I find really annoying as well about losing a pet and people's reaction to it is when people immediately say you can always get another one because you wouldn't say that about a person no and the other thing that everybody says the first question question is, how old were they? Like, I know it was going to happen, but it's still absolutely accurate. You wouldn't say that about a person. How old were they?

Oh, that's all right then. It's that. I think people do. Well, you know what I mean. It's not the first question that you ask. But I just think, I definitely felt, particularly with the cat, there's a lot more sympathy with dogs, I think. But particularly with the cat, there's a lot more sympathy with dogs, I think.

But particularly with the cat, I felt that I didn't have, I kind of wasn't really supposed to be talking about it after a couple of weeks when I could still burst out crying about it now. And I just, you know, I have very kind friends who looked after me, but it was, to me, a very similar feeling of grief to what I'd experienced when I'd lost people. And I ended up really liking Mia Mia the central character in the book because she has she's a sort of woman who's settled for a kind of weird half-life that she doesn't even really recognize is that

yeah because she's like so many of us compartmentalized and she's just getting from the end of one day to the start of another isn't yeah on paper it's all going very well yeah she's got the husband the house the job and um as it all falls away you realize that a lot of those things didn't serve her very well and i think the pandemic did that to a lot of people made you kind of think oh do i actually like what i'm doing who i live with the job that i do and there was a lot of reassessment happening i didn't want to write about pandemic but it's the same kind of feeling of when something catastrophic happens your life is changed when you rebuild it what do you what do you take with you the pet therapy grief sessions that you write about in the book have you been to something

similar yourself yeah so about 18 years ago I was in New York and I had a blog and I was just going to different self-help groups and writing about them did like laughter yoga and sound healing and things were really woo-woo back then but quite like normal now feature on wellness Wednesday yes there you go lots of lots of umming at crystals um I mean umming not omming and I was um one group that I found was a pet bereavement group and I thought oh this is going to be hilarious I could write a really good article about this what a ridiculous thing and as soon as I walked into the room I was like oh my god I could never ever write about this in a you know in a mean way and so I never wrote that piece but I held on to them and those people it was very sad

and people were very lonely and they didn't have anyone in their lives who would give them a second of a you know the sympathy that they needed about their grief. And here they are. They popped up in this book. And it's really nice to write about them with heart as opposed to as a journalist. Yes. OK. Now, let me just tackle the controversial subject of too much intimacy with an animal. Now, I'm not talking about what you think I might be talking about. I'm talking about not so much cats in the bedroom, but actually in the bed.

And I know people who let their dog get into bed with them and even put their head on the pillow. Please tell me, I mean, that's not good for any relationship, is it? It can't be. Between humans, I'm talking about. I'm not opposed to it.

Our last dog, Potato, towards the end, he was so old and mad, we just let him do whatever he needed to do. But we do generally, dogs sleep on the floor and we sleep in the bed. But as soon as they hear our voice in the morning, they jump up. Okay. Right. I think we've exhausted that line of inquiry. What I'm interested in is because you, you don't live in London. You're here just talking about the book now for a couple of weeks. So it's back to LA, but I think you've set up a kind of British office life really well in the

book when presumably you haven't worked in a British office for in fact have you ever worked in a traditional British workplace yes I used to temp in all sorts of offices is that where it all comes well no I actually um I I uh found a jewellery designer here called Rachel Jackson who I'd never met I asked on my blog can anyone introduce me to a jewellery designer here called Rachel Jackson, who I'd never met. I asked on my blog, can anyone introduce me to a jewellery designer to set the scene of an office? And I did like a two hour long Zoom with Rachel and she really set the scene so that I knew that that was that would be what it would like if you went into a jewellery company. So an old fashioned research. Brilliant. No, it's proper effort. This is why I want to know about writing fiction as opposed to nonfiction, because you have done both. Now, writing fiction, is that your happy place to be?

Because you can roam completely free, presumably. I wrote nonfiction during lockdown and you're just stumbling over yourself. And my commitment is that I will go all in. So when I'm writing nonfiction, I go all in and then just feel horribly overexposed. But I'd rather do that than write a book that isn't, you know, honest. So when I'm doing fiction, I can push the boundaries of anything I've ever done or thought or heard and say what I want and not exposing myself. And so it's a lot freer and I way prefer it. It was it was great to write that book, Life in Pieces, but now it's fiction from now on.

I think writing non-fiction is harder. Well, thank you, yes. Well, certainly Fia and I found it extraordinarily difficult. We've never even tried fiction. No. Oh, I wanted to ask about sex scenes. Do you mind? Oh, please ask about sex scenes.

There's a faintly, there are a fair few sex scenes in the book, but, I mean, not an extraordinary number. But is that, are're faintly comic, or slightly troubling? I think they're both actually. How do you do those scenes? I would really be wary of writing anything like the sort of stuff that appears in this book. I love writing sex scenes. Because I'm not writing like perfect Hollywood, you know, movie, gorgeous sex scene. You're really not, by the way.

No, but I think, but I think if you were to like, this is creepy, have a hole in the wall and watch other people have sex, it would look awkward and weird and they'd be doing strange things and they'd be trying odd things and it would be kind of noisy, but not in a sexy way. And that's the kind of sex that I like to write. Those kind of weird encounters that you have, even if it's your husband or, you know, when you're dating people. And that's the kind of sex that I like to write. Those kind of weird encounters that you have, even if it's your husband, or, you know, when you're dating people. And I mean, all you have to do is sit and have a glass of wine with a group of girls and you all share your sex stories. And it's, that's the reality. Yeah. So are these LA friend sex stories? Or are they real friends? I would never tell. Okay. How old are you, Dawn, please? I'm 43. Okay. I think there is still a really profound gap

between the ability of women your age to talk about sex very openly and women our age to talk about sex very openly. I can hand on heart say I've got very clever, lovely friends. We talk about absolutely everything. Nothing is off the table, but we never, ever talk about our sex lives. Well, I was having this very conversation this morning in our 20s my friends and i would go into like minute detail describing the sex that we were having with people but as soon as you meet the one a relationship becomes

important that just stops and it's because even with your best i i don't talk about my sex life with chris even with my best friend in the world. And that was all we used to talk about. And we've actually discussed why is it? And I'm like, I don't want to know about you guys. It's too intimate. Is that because you might see them both a lot? Well, I don't know what it is, but I also don't want her to know. I think you just treasure what you've got with that person a bit more. It's a bit more, it's more at stake.

And sharing it feels like you're exposing it to something that doesn't need to be involved so no I think about that a lot my single friends still talk about their sex lives in quite big detail but anyone in a serious relationship just doesn't and does that make it even more exciting and fun to write about yeah I mean I giggle to myself when I'm writing these sex scenes I absolutely love it and a lot I wouldn't there's various things that have happened there's a I know that you wanted to talk about it, so I'll find the right words. There's a scene with a sharpie. Thank you, Dawn.

This bizarre sex scene that was so weird to write but was absolutely inspired by something that someone I know experienced. Okay, I'm really not sure I needed to know. Because it's not, to me was I was mildly the cat shot off the sofa when we got to that bit last night she couldn't cope people do weird things oh I know that yes yes I yes I have to accept that they do Dawn um and then when you so how does it feel to have written that and you think oh did a good job there I'll just make myself a cup of herbal tea do you know all you want to do as a fiction writer is give your reader something that

they haven't read before? Well, you did. And that's what I felt like I did. So it was a big pat on the back for that one. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, what I should say is that this book, which I hope it entices a few people to go out and search for it now, because it's also got a fantastic cover. Let's just hear it for the cover design of an upside down,

looks like a Barbie doll, upside downdown in a can of cat food. Yes. And if that doesn't attract readers, I don't know what will. I was heading for a really important literary thought there, but it's completely gone. Can I do a cat thought instead? Why don't you? Do you think that the domesticated cat genuinely does have

kind of human characteristics and personalities or is that just what we've created and placed onto them if we took a feral cat in would the same thing happen to them i think so a lot of people say if you take a feral cat in that was you know terrified of you and then you start feeding it and you get it spayed or neutered then it will eventually you know be lying on your chest i find cats so human I'm I swear my boy cat and I have this like have proper conversation no you don't but I do feel like he understands me and I understand him but I think people you know when it's your pet you you've got a formula to the way your day goes you've got stuff that you do where it responds to and you kind of have little routines and things

like that so I I do with my cats. I mean, my cats, people say, oh, cats think you're just their slave. I don't. I am my cat's queen. They stare at me like, what now, madam? What's going to happen now? Stare at me in the shower. And did they like the book? They loved the book.

Excellent. And they were the inspiration. Excellent. And how important is it? I hope this isn't a spoiler. I remembered my question now. How important is it to have a happy ending for your rather vulnerable lady at the centre of the story

who I really like, Mia? Oh, thank you. It's so important. She's not a particularly likeable character. You grow to love her, right? Well, thank you. I'm glad that you liked her. But I think with all books, you want to leave with a feeling of hope. And so it's not to wrap it up too neatly in the perfect ending, but you do want

the reader to get to the end and go, oh, she be all right and that's a good feeling. Dawn O'Porter she's good fun even when she is ever so slightly hungover I've got to say she does hungover in a way that I certainly don't do. She looked absolutely fine. She looked immaculate absolutely immaculate and the reference to a sharpie there don't be distressed by it it probably is what you think and I don't care what Dawn says. Dawn says people do strange things. I hope not too many people do things as strange as that. But Cat Lady is an interesting read.

Might you be sending it my way as a Christmas present? I do very much hope so. I've marked a few of the pages, so I think it might be a little bit obvious. But we should also say that Dawn O'Porter had some very classy book gifts. You know, the things that sort of marketing bump that sometimes comes your way when people have got a book out. And she had some very interesting things, didn't she? So she has gifted us with some pen holders

that are basically like tins of cat food, but they say Cat Lady on them to publicise the book. But they're slightly the wrong way round. So in order to stand them up to put your pens in them, the logo and the legend around the tin is the wrong way up. I just hope that an intern didn't get into trouble there. Well, I would

imagine Dawn did them all herself. So maybe when she was hungover. It's the kind of thing that I do a little bit too much the night before. Thank you very much for engaging with this garbage. Tomorrow, there's a little bonus ball. If you miss Susie Dent on our Times Radio show on Wednesday, you can hear it in tomorrow's off-air podcast.

And Susie's always well worth hearing. Do-do-do-do-do. Brilliant. you have been listening to off air with jane garvey and fee glover our times radio producer is rosie cutler and the podcast executive producer is ben mitchell now you can listen to us on the free times radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday

3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.