Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I could drive you places, you could drive me mad!

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

In today's episode it emerges that Fi forgot to compliment Jane on her flecks of grey, so now the whole 'au naturale' plan has gone out the window... more on the big cat man in a moment. Plus, Jane speaks to Health Editor of The Sunday Times, Shaun Lintern, about his coverage of The Sodium Valproate scandal. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can have just one fag in your hand, in memory of the one fag you had on the arm of the hand. Just that one cigarette. And then, darning, of course, all your awards. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore? FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month.

Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.com. Hi there, it's Dan Snow, host of the Dan Snow's History Hit podcast. It is officially summer here in Europe. I would love for you to accompany me on a history lover's holiday vacation around this continent. On my podcast throughout August, I'll be your guide to Europe's most iconic historical hotspots. From the bell towers of Paris's Notre Dame Cathedral, to the streets of Pompeii, to the Gladiator's Coliseum in Rome.

We'll walk in the footsteps of Anne Berlin, a Tower of London. we will unravel the mysteries of the Minnoans on the island of Crete. Let me narrate your historic summer on Down Snow's History, wherever you get your podcasts. Hannah is wearing a classic outfit today. She was a very crisp white shirt. Very crisp white shirt. Yep, and then Gene, oh, you've got a jort. She's wearing a jort, and you've got the ankle socks as well.

A jort with, what is that, Hannah? It's a star. It's a star on the rear area in embroidery. It's a good look, isn't it? It's a good look for Hannah. You won't be seeing me in a jort. Well, I think if either of us came to work in that outfit, the thing is that the jorts would come down to just above the knee,

and that would be very unflattering. And I cannot wear an ankle sock with george. Just, again, I'd look like a toddler. We'd look like we were on our way to soft play. You certainly would. Can I just relate something that happened to me on the tube, on the way in today? It was really extraordinary, Jane. I went going down an anecdote avenue?

We are. Okay, lovely. We're going down. An incredible thing happened on the way to the studio today. Welcome aboard listeners. This has never happened to me before anywhere. and I wonder whether it's happened to other people. I was in a tube carriage, quite a quiet tube carriage,

right at the top of the train. Nobody ever gets on because the platform's too short, et cetera, et cetera. And there were about three of us in the carriage. And a woman, about my age, got on. And I had my headphones when I was playing my music incredibly loud. And I could see her asking the other two women in the carriage something and then definitely trying to ask me something. I thought, okay, that's fine.

And quite often I ignore people who are trying to talk to me because I'm reading, I'm a Londoner, and that's what happens. But I could see that she wanted to connect. So she was asking everybody in the carriage whether they'd recently eaten nuts because her nut allergy is so bad that she cannot get on an enclosed space if somebody has recently eaten nuts,

and she has to wait until she has a relatively empty tube carriage just in case somebody has got off and has just eaten nuts. so that kind of air circulation. She can't travel during the rush hour in case people are breathing a kind of nut breath on her and she had a sign on her bag saying severe nut allergy and she said that about twice a month

she does have to use an EpiPen because she'll just be on a bus or she will have gone to a shop and she's just standing in a queue or in the same kind of environment as somebody who's had a nut. Isn't that a debilitating thing? Bloody hell. I mean, the jeopardy

every time she leaves the house. Yeah. It's just extraordinary. So what would your... So you hadn't eaten nuts? No, I hadn't eaten nuts. And the other two women, they hadn't eaten nuts either. But then we all had an interesting conversation

about whether or not people really know that they have. Because actually, if you've had a great big bowl of granola, I'd probably say, no, I haven't eaten any nuts, but there may well have been nuts in a granola. Or one of those protein bars at the moment, or all of that kind of stuff. And she said that's what happens. you know, people think that they haven't eaten nuts

but I will have a severe reaction so I know that they have but people aren't kind of deliberately trying to mislead her but I really, I mean we all really, really felt for her she was a lovely woman and I almost wish that we could keep in touch but I wonder whether anybody has that experience

of being that person because I was just amazed that what she must have to go through on a daily basis to just get around I don't think we give that very much thought too at all. I mean, I'm always a bit puzzled by allergies because my understanding is you can develop an allergy at any time in your life, can't you? So you can suddenly discover, and it probably won't be much of an experience, that you are indeed allergic to shellfish

or indeed to nuts. Is that right? I haven't made this up. Well, I'm not a qualified doctor and I've treated me for years. I'll dig in to my honorary doctorate from the University of Kent in classical civilization philosophy to say, I've got no real idea, but somebody out there will have. But now, I think you're right. And it's like the hair dye thing, isn't it, that you can think, oh, no, I'm fine, I can dye my hair. And then one day you go to the hairdressers, they start dyeing your hair. No, you're not okay anymore. So, yeah, let's hope that never happens. Well, I thought you were growing out your grey. Yeah, I've gone back, I got bored of it. Really?

Actually, yeah, I just thought, no, I don't, no, I still don't want to do it yet. I mean, look, I could change my mind because I'm absolutely, I'm such a wacky individual. I could have blue hair in a couple of weeks. We just don't know. I'm not sure about that blue hair, pink hair, green hair thing. No, okay. Well, I mean, I haven't yet allowed myself to go grey, so maybe that's when it becomes really appealing. Well, I tried it for two or three weeks. Didn't like it much. Yeah, I thought it was looking quite nice, actually. And I was quite surprised because you're not very, very grey. You've just got little flecks of grey. I thought, well, good on you. This is going to look great. I mean, obviously I forgot to tell you.

Yes, I was going to say, I don't remember that conversation. Okay, well, look, who knows? Who knows? But anyway, back to the allergies. I'm just really interested to know. I think that is such a, such a disabling thing. Oh, it's awful, poor woman. Yes, poor woman. And I've never come across it before. Love to hear your stories, how you're coping. And I know that this is such a nightmare for parents of kids who've got severe allergies.

So it's just maybe an interesting path to go down. It really is. So let us know if you have, particularly if you are trained, you're actually qualified at this area. We'd love to hear from you. Because you never know who's listening and we have had an email from the Big Catman. Oh my goodness, we couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it either. More in a moment. But I just wanted to say this is very much from the Nothing to See Here department. But the Pope is keen to share his flat with some roommates. He's moving some friars in. He's a nice Pope. He looks like he's going to be a good Pope. You say that. I just want I want him to do and say more. I had quite high hopes, but I maybe I've perhaps just over-egged

what he's capable of doing. He's not been there very long, give him a chance. Well, there's a lot going wrong in the world. Why isn't he kind of going out and saying stuff? He's too busy sorting out his flat. I mean, there's a sitcom to be I mean, Father Ted was one thing, but the Pope says here

his new roommates could be and we don't know this. This is by Tom Kington, the Times, Italy correspondent. His new roommates could be three Augustinian friars, an Italian, a Filipino and a Nigerian. Sounds very nice, doesn't it?

They manage his wardrobe and the Vatican has not commented yet saying the plan hasn't been formalised. But hasn't he already departed from previous papal extravagance by doing that? Delay in moving is said in part to be due to damp.

Oh, we've all got damp. I know, terrible. Has he departed? Yes, I suppose he has. He's sort of being relatively humble by the standards of very important people, and we get a little bit of that in this country, don't we with the Royals,

when they downsize to eight-bedroom properties. You think, oh, keeping it real. Yes. You're just like us. And they have no staff. And I put it to you that, I think they might have some people who pop in. Yeah, I think they've really.

we have as well. Anyway, if you've ever shared a flat with the Pope, or actually I just think flatmates generally is quite a rich seam because before I moved in when I'm a boyfriend, I did live with a boyfriend. I did, yes, ages ago I mean literally 150 years ago I did live exclusively with my female flatmates and we did have

it was good I mean there was a lot of terrible food I mean really terrible food so many baked potatoes in the the 80s and 90s. I mean, I must have eaten more baked... I looked like a baked potato. I mean, I looked like one anyway, but I really looked like one back in the late 1980s. I mean, I'm not dissing my flatmates at the time, but bloody hell. Did you have rotors? Did you have formal rotors of cleaning? Well, no, because there's only ever two of us in fairness. Oh, okay. Yeah. Right. So it was literally, I didn't have many

friends. It was difficult. No one, you know. Oh, yeah, no, at one point, I did share... I shared with a bloke when I first came to London we weren't in a relationship he wasn't of that persuasion fee can you believe such a thing I mean not even me not even I could change or perhaps it was the sight of me entering the bathroom facility

I'm just going to let you go down this road entirely by yourself no no anyway so I really do want somebody very clever to write a sitcom about the Pope and his flatmates well I don't you should should do it yourself. I haven't got the time.

Okay. I've got a house to clean and manage. Oki-dokey. I always think those rotas are very funny. There's always somebody in that kind of dynamic. So I think at university I always live with three other people, always four people in a house. And actually largely with blokes. So it did end up being me who tried to do the rotor and it shouldn't automatically fall to a bit. And And just the comical excuses that were used why you couldn't fulfil that particular part of your rotor. I mean, eventually, if you were going to reduce that source all the way down,

the excuse was, I'm a man. Yes, that's why I can't do it. So I think I did do quite a lot of tidying off of kitchens. But actually, that is unfair. There was one bloke in my third year at university who was so on it like a bonnet, and he used to get incredibly annoyed with the other gentleman of the house when they didn't

fulfil their domestic duties and one time he ended up just taking the entire contents of the sink up to one particular domestic felon and just putting all of the dead sauce pans and grimy cups and stuff like that under this poor bloke's duvet

under the duve right so when he got in at night he saw oh who's that you've got a phone I love it when he gets phone calls it's always people trying to flog something for I'll offer her service. Let's see.

Hello. What is it? Her Majesty Redd Renew and Customs. Hang on, I mean, put this on speaker. So this is a scam. This is a scam. Listen, everybody. Please press one to speak to our officer.

Oh, let's speak to an officer. Should we do this? Let's do this. It seems unlikely it's HMRC with that accent. Hello? Hello? It's great this scam. Hello.

They're really on it. Hello. Hello. No, you're not there. Well, they're the world's you most useless scammers. I'm going to hang up now. I don't think you are who you say you are.

Okay, bye. Bye. See, bye. Oh, he hung up first. HMRC, which has moved to Vladivostok. Honestly, and also the... Nobody from HMRC is calling on a mobile number. Well, no, they might be. They might be.

This is just a useful reminder that these shipbags are out there. They are, yeah. Targeting vulnerable old women like us. So just be careful. Right, let's dig into Rick Minter. Yes. So, well, first of all, let's just deal with another big cat sighting

because they have flooded in. We've got one here. Just last week, while I was at the play park in Kingsdown near Deal, says Sarah, with my husband and grandson, I saw a big cat. In the absence of any other jingles. Thank you. It walked past a gap in the next field. I didn't even mention it at first because I knew my husband wouldn't believe me,

and it had already gone. It's actually the second time I've seen one. The first was about 15 years ago on a country lane nearby. This time, I just watched it calmly. But listening to you two has made me realise these sightings are quite common right which brings in Rick Minter the professional thank you for mentioning my work on your podcast he says I've included a link to my podcast on this very topic also below details of the current exhibition I'm curating and a recent article of mine in the BBC's wildlife magazine thank you very much Rick following your podcast

so far I've had one person in Deal in Kent I think that's our correspondent Sarah email me with a big cat report when I did the Ramblings edition with Claire Balding look we can't keep mentioning class really weird I got quite a few reports of big cats

from all over Britain from Radio 4 listeners well almost all of them matching a description of a leopard in its black form right now earlier on when I was discussing this in the office with Fee

she made a rather unpleasant remark about how some radio four listeners Just train their binoculars on their garden for 24 hours a day. Well, no, I just said that they might be the kind of people who had time on their hands. That isn't beyond the bounds of possibility. Let's just be honest. Male and female black or melanistic leopards breed on black, i.e. produce exclusively black litters.

You can hear plausible descriptions of observed mothers with cubs in my podcast series. and many descriptions from the likes of Doug, a plumber, as well as all manners of other professions who've had sightings, including the police on duty and retired. Right. Emphasis, perhaps on the retired there. But we're not putting all retired people in the box marked, possibly inebriated after one o'clock.

But it's a long time to wait until escape to the country. I just feel the afternoon somehow No, but we are fascinated by the big cats This comes in from Sean and Catron Leopard in its black phase He queries this Have we now learnt that contrary to the old saying A leopard does change its spots

You're on to something there, Sean Offair fulfilling and educational remit Says Sean Despite being a little patchy on the subject of Jenny Can you finish that sentence? Because Sean's a very regular correspondent Despite being a little patchy on the subject of jellyfish consumption.

And we did. We heard from quite a few people, off air, off air, when we went off air, that you can eat jellyfish. Well, Rosie, our executive producer, claimed that she knew someone who had and it was, quote, chewy. Yeah.

Which doesn't surprise anyone, does it? Well, it doesn't. No, on any front of that anecdote. But Rosie, she knows people in the food world. Oh, yes, she does. Because her proto-husband is a chef. Yeah. Well, it's not just any chef. He's a very good one.

He's a very good chef. I can't get into his restaurant. I did try and make a booking in the earliest that they could fit me in was October. I'm doing in October. Yeah, sold out all the way. Can't she swing it for you? No, I don't like to ask those kind of favours. Rubbish. In public, anyway. Right, okay, Jean says, I just heard that email from the woman who went to the wrong barrack.

This did make me laugh. It was Ruth. Ruth, I think you've been such a good sport about this. Jean says my daughter used to work for a travel company who'd often book school group travel trips On one particular journey A group from a local private school arrived at Heathrow for their trip to San Jose The customs officials wanted to know where their visas were

Oh we don't need them to go to Costa Rica was the reply Well said the official You're going to California Over the organising period of six months prior No one had noticed at the school or the travel company that the flights had been booked for San Jose, California, not San Jose Costa Rica, which was nearly 4,000 miles away. It did cost the hapless travel agent their job

and the company around £80,000 to correct the error. Ouch, that... I'm glad the lady who went to the wrong barrack enjoyed her time there, but I do feel sorry for the 30 or so pupils who only got to enjoy that terminal building at Heathrow. That would be a very, very disappointing coach Journey Home. really would be.

Fun fact for everybody, in Austria at the airport there, there is genuinely a desk for people who have accidentally arrived in Austria thinking that they're going to Australia. Oh, what? Yeah. They can't be. Yeah, look it up. What's you fumbling in your pocket for?

I was fumbling for my hankies. Oh, okay. I haven't got one. Why would you do that? You wouldn't do that from Britain because you'd know damn well. It was two hours. Well, because we're far too clever, Jane. I'm a firm believer in British exceptionalism.

No, it's not just far too clever The length of the flight Surely would be a big hint I know I just read it in a newspaper somewhere I didn't make the desk myself Okay well You don't need to investigate

Now Sheena is laughing a great deal About poor Jane G Having to read all fours Oh God I do a review of all the novels That I read so it's easy for me To quickly refresh my memory

Says Sheena Reading this was such a complete waste Of the few years I have left I didn't even offer the review Oh, come on. Don't be tempted for too many other fabulous books out there. Best novel I've read this year. There are Rivers in the Sky by Aleph Shafak.

And actually, I've seen a lot of people out and about reading that. Have you? So I'm going to make a note to read that myself. On holiday, the defunct Portuguese holiday that ended up in Suffolk, I read Sarah Moss Riteness. Now, have you, did you read Summer Water by Sir Foss? I think I did. Set in the Caravan Park in Scotland.

It's absolutely brilliant. It's one of my favourite. books ever. Yeah, I just really recommend it. I think she does internal dialogue, especially in women's heads, really, really brilliantly. And her latest novel is Riteness. And I think you'd really like it because it's got a theme of the diaspora of the Irish and also the people who came to Ireland in the 1960s and the devastation that was caused across Ireland by being unbelievably exact about maternity, babies, contraception, the ramifications of an early pregnancy,

all of those kind of things. It's a really, really, really good book. Okay. So I just want to pop that out there if anybody else wants to pass on. I have a book recommendation. I was talking to Jamal earlier in the week on Monday when you went here about the fact that I am now reading

that book about Andrew and Fergie. Oh, the Andrew Lowney book. Yes, entitled. Do you know what? It is truly hard. horrifying. Nobody emerges with any credit from this. And I do mean nobody in the Royal Family. They just, it's just, it's well worth a gander if you, if you get the chance. I mean, obviously, it's only out and hard back at the moment, but he's been quoted as saying that loads of people

have contacted him since it was first published and first serialised in a newspaper and that more people have come through with more, more information for him. So, yes. I mean, I think, honestly, I think if enough people read it, I think we'd be seriously talking about. maybe we should actually ask some serious questions about this institution. Anyway, I don't think we're anywhere close to a genuine movement for a Republic in Britain, but you do wonder when you read stuff like this, how long we're going to carry on with this. Anyway, just my view, and there is another side,

because there's another side to everything, isn't there for? Not everything. Not everything, no. But this isn't the other side to Miranda's all fours. We just ought to say that lots of people have loved. this book. Oh God, it's been nominated for prizes. People think it's remarkable. Of course lots of people love it. Well, this is from Anonymous, but I just need to say that she is hugely clever based on what she does for a living. So, um, respect to you for writing in to say. Miranda unleashes an absolutely phenomenal creative talent to represent the moment of a woman's life

where she sets herself free from the plan she had for herself and the expectation of society and her own family and friends. On a road trip that, including incredibly beautifully, doesn't go anywhere because it doesn't have to. Okay, fair enough. What she actually does, room decoration, sexual exploration, are for me artistic representations of her exploration and very touching and funny ones at that. I love this book because I felt the wind of this woman's freedom in my hair.

Wow. Okay. And I laugh so much, which was also part of the exhilaration. Brilliant. Quality listener with a quality email. Thank you very much for that. Have you, by any chance, seen a really good documentary on the eye player about the brain surgeon Henry Marsh? I watched it last night. Fiona, so did I. Did you? That is extraordinary.

Why don't we live together? It's been mooted before. Come on. We can be flatmates. We could. I could do your roots. I could drive you places and you could drive me mad. Right.

What did you think of it? I just thought he was really, interesting company and I hugely only look how can you not respect the brain the skill set required to do what he did for a living and I thought he was very humble when he met because he really acknowledged honoured the fact that some of his decisions had been wrong that he had messed up and that he'd been very hard to live with and that some of his some of his operations hadn't worked they hadn't been done he tried to do things that he shouldn't have tried to do I I so I I really learned a lot from it, did you?

I did, and I'd agree with all of that because he's come to a place later in life where he is brilliantly self-aware about his arrogance as a young surgeon. And I think that just always needs investigating this idea in medicine that there's a kind of pyramid and right at the top of that pyramid of the surgeons

and they are godlike creatures, nobody questions their judgment, they're on a daily basis in charge of making decisions that affect people's lives and the lives of their children in particular. And I think we need to keep knocking on that door because it just seems really weird that they've been elevated to that kind of status.

So I think as a 74-year-old man, to be able to have such clarity is really, really good to see. And I love the fact that now when he's teaching, that's the lesson he's trying to teach, that you should be aware of your own limitations as a human being. you shouldn't allow the flattery to make you arrogant and you should always ask for help and I thought he made such a good point

about you're a kind of solo operator as a surgeon and actually the one thing that you don't ever have to do is ask a fellow surgeon to come in on your deal you're just in charge of that theatre yourself so I thought all of that was brilliant his eccentricity I did think that it would be so challenging to have lived with that.

Well, in fairness, his second wife doesn't live with him. No, and I was just about to say. Which I thought was interesting. I went to bed last night thinking about the documentary because there's a point that Henry Marsh, the surgeon, is wandering around his house in Wimbledon and he says, I've lived in this house on my own for 20 years. He was divorced from his first wife, mother of his three children,

and then later in the documentary we meet his second wife, who he's still with. And I was thinking, okay, he's lived by himself for 20. Did I miss a little bit? had I propped out to get myself a non-alcoholic beer because it's a weekday. So I'm glad you said. So they don't live together?

No. No, okay. Which, I mean, look, it's probably not a bad idea. We shouldn't move in together. It would ruin us. Okay. I mean, I also thought it was, the other thing I took away was that he went on a trip to Ukraine

and fair play to him for doing that with just one pair of other underpants. And he said that he, every night, he washed his pants and his socks and then he slept on them to get them dry. Yes, I didn't understand that. The warmth of his body dried his pants and then he put them on again in the morning.

So where does he put them? Well, presumably he just puts them in bed with him. I don't think that can be right. I don't want pants in bed with me, too? No, I mean, we're not wet ones. There is a limit. Okay, oh, we're just very odd. Anyway, look, we all pack very differently, don't we?

We certainly do. Because I always take a pair of pants for every day and extra. Do you? Yeah, always, that question. Do you ever travel? just with cabin baggage. No. I wouldn't dare. No. I don't want to be that person, but I never will be. I have this ongoing thing because I always travel with just cabin luggage. I don't like to have this big doggages. I do look at people. You're going on a two-week holiday. Massive suitcases.

What is in there? What's in there? For heaven's sake. Well, I don't take a massive suitcase. I just don't want to be left, you know, ill-prepared. What if I'm invited to a gala? Good point. I'm going to have to change my luggage allocations. There was very famously, at one of the places I watched the BBC, it was always an evening dress on a hangar in a certain office, as though it might simply at any time be required.

Yeah, it's very fun. Oh, Lord. We stood behind somebody once who was going on holiday to, France, and this was kind of the middle of France. It wasn't flashy France for anything like that. We were just picking up in the days of the kids. They did have luggage that went in the hold. And she was a bit like watching the conveyor belt on the generation game.

So they had suitcases, but they also had a magic mix that came through. They had a coffee machine that came through. And she had a sewing machine that came through, all wrapped up in that, you know, bubble wrap and all of that kind of stuff. And I think they were. They were going to France. Yes, on holiday. Not to live.

Well, I don't think so, because then they just had normal suitcases with them and they got in a higher car. But I did think, okay, well, maybe that's a different way of doing a holiday. You know, if you want to sew in the sunshine, and if you want to really love your cooking, and you want to make sure that you've got all of those things with you,

basically, a bit of a lot of thing. I think the magic makes good cope alone on its own for a week. Co-at-home on its own for a week. Does that make any sense? Yes. Did it? Yes.

Cope at home on its own. Yes, no, we're okay. We're okay. Right, well, I mean, if you've taken some kitchen utensil abroad and they've appreciated it, let us know about it. Now, Figgs, I can't stand them. Oh, I know. So you're in trouble.

You better read this out because it's just addressed to you. It's from Nikki. I'm a long-time listener. But she says here, I love and admire you both so much. My side's sake with laughter often as I listen to you. during my nightly ritual of getting ready for bed and while my husband

often raises his eyebrows thinking, why doesn't she laugh at my jokes? Well, maybe he's just not as... Maybe he's not that funny. I mean... Anyway, the reason for writing this, says Nicky,

is how could anyone describe a figure as vile? Which is exactly, Jane, how you refer to this most delicious of fruits. They're my absolute favourite and when in season I often overindulge as they grow in abundance

in my mother's garden. Maybe it's to do with my Greek Cypriot heritage, I don't know, but before I wisen to the idea of being cremated, she does say upon my death, that is, and not before, I had asked to be buried wearing my favourite Giorgio Amani trouser suit, surrounded by copious amounts of ripe and juicy figs. What? So you want to be cremated in a Giorgio Amani suit, can I just suggest that is a waste of a wonderful trouser suit that would probably delight somebody down the local charity shop. Yes, I've never really thought about an outfit that I'd want to be sent off in.

Well, we can both wear our honorary doctorate robes. No, I just rented mine. Very cheap. No, I rented mine, but, well, the university gave it to me for the occasion, obviously. I'm sure we could both just ask, put it in the will. Do you not want to wear your blue-tit uniform? Can you still fit into it? I think up top it would be something of a challenge.

Okay, Nikki, I'm really sorry about this. I really hope it's not an open car. Oh, shut up. Honestly, it's a good job, I'm not sensitive. They'll give everyone a laugh. You could have just one fag in your hand. In memory of the one fag you had on the arm of the one. Just that one cigarette.

And then, darling, of course, all your awards. they could just be scattered that's how I'd like to be buried or cremated but this is interesting what I actually meant Nicky and I said that the figs were vile it's the figs that plop

from my fig tree in East West Kensington I just put it to you I don't think they'd be very nice Have you tried them? Once I did have a tiny I'm not drawn to soft fruit in any form I don't like anything

I don't like strawberries I don't like any of those things so I don't think they'd be my thing but I did say the other day it was when Jamal was here that I'd come down early doors Saturday morning to the garden and there were three foxes in the back garden and I'm not excited, I am a journalist

but I'm not exaggerating, I hadn't been drinking, three foxes and they were eating the figs. Ooh! I know, and they haven't been back since. So I don't think they like them much. Anyway, shall we do this really deadly serious email? Yes. Because we do, I mean, it's light and shade here,

as you all know, regular listeners and thank you for being there, we appreciate it. I just found this such an important subject but bloody hell it's difficult. It is a very difficult one. Do you just want to do a tiny bit of context because it refers to your Nicola Sturgeon interview where you asked her.

Yes, so, well, I'll tell you what, yes, I'll do that and then you read the rest of the email because I interviewed Nicholas Sturgeon last week for her memoir, frankly. And, I mean, in a way, she's causing problems for herself by calling it frankly because a lot of people think she hasn't been all that, Frank.

And one of the issues is her relationship with Alex Salmond, who was the previous leader of the Scottish National Party, very much her mentor, but a man who had a reputation and eventually faced some very, very serious charges of sexual harassment and sexual assault. I should say he was acquitted of these charges and he's now dead. So we can't libel the dead, we can talk about Alex Amid as he was. And he was a man with a reputation that went before him, certainly in Holyrood circles in Scotland and women.

were told not to be on their own with him. So some people are pretty disappointed with Nicola Sturgeon for saying, as she did in many interviews, not just the one with me, that she was not aware of this part of his reputation. She'd merely thought of him as a man who possibly had had some affairs, all consensual. There we go.

Thank you. So our correspondent listened to your interview with Nicola Sturgeon and raised her eyebrows at that portion of it too. It reminded me of a dilemma I faced recently, our correspondent says, the difficulty of someone you know and love being accused of sexual misconduct. My brother, to whom I'm very close, admitted to me recently that he had slept with a girl at university, who then accused him of taking advantage of her when she was too drunk to consent. She apparently confronted him about this months after the night in question when he had a new girlfriend and also told the girlfriend

about it, apparently to warn her about his behaviour. When recounting this story to me, my brother was very dismissive and just accused the girl of being jealous and trying to stir things up. I was so shocked at this whole revelation and just listened in stunned silence before we were interrupted by others and we haven't spoken of it since. In the months since, my brother admitted this to me. I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. I feel torn between desperately wanting to believe my brother's version

of events, but also my natural inclination to believe a woman in this situation. The brother I know is incredibly kind, conscientious, and someone I would describe as a feminist, not remotely an Andrew Tate type. And yet logically, I know that many of the men who have sexually harassed or assaulted women would be perceived similarly by their loved ones. I guess because of this, I feel some empathy for Sturgeon in not being able to fully decry Samund in the way I suspect she would have done had they no prior relationship. Coming to terms with the idea that someone you love or loved is capable of such things is incredibly difficult to wrap your head around.

I would love to hear from any listeners who've experienced similar or from anyone who has advice on this. Well, thank you for sending that and it's a very eloquent description of what's happened and I am pretty sure that listeners will have thoughts on this because it will be by no means, unfortunately. an isolated occasion and there are many interesting points that come out of that how well you think you know somebody how well equipped you are to judge someone's behaviour when it comes to a sexual

relationship so many people have different parts of their lives jane we don't know everything about the people that we love and also i think what's become quite a complicated thing actually the you must always believe women all of the time that is there in us to protect the sisterhood and protect the vulnerable but there have been cases of women who have made an allegation against a man who is entirely innocent

and it ruins lives it absolutely ruins lives that does happen it doesn't happen as often as some people might think it doesn't but when it does happen oh yeah but we should never, ever equate the number of times that happens with the number of times a man gets away with rape. No, I completely agree. But in that person's life, that is so difficult. It's so poorly. I mean, but you ask anyone who defends an alleged rapist in court, they'll always say, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, they like to see a number of women on the jury

because female jurors are always harder on the complainant, the woman alleging rape. than you might think and that's because there's part of the female brain that and again you can really take me up on this if this isn't right or you think I'm just barking up the wrong tree that women will look at a situation like this and think well I so let's say it was me for example I've never been on the jury let's say I was on the jury now I'm very fortunate I've never been sexually assaulted by a man

so I would say I would probably think there'd be a part of my brain well that's the reason that hasn't happened to me is that I've been careful I've been sensible I'm not saying this is the right part of me I'm just saying this part of me exists and I think it exists in almost all women and I wonder whether that does make us it's not as straightforward as some people might think you might think oh pack a rape jury full of women and this will definitely improve justice for victims of rape unfortunately it doesn't work that way because we've got proof of that there are often

half of a rape jury might be female maybe even more and it hasn't led to loads and loads of men going to prison for rape when in fact they are guilty because there's always that part that nasty internalised misogyny part of our brain

that leads us to question what a woman is saying and I hate it and I hear what you're saying it would be so interesting to do you know of any absolute statistics on that I suppose the only way that you'll be

able to really prove that is by having a completely male jury on the same case listening to the same evidence and see if they came to the same conclusion. Do you remember that they did a very... It was a Channel 4 experiment It's coming back. It is coming back, isn't it? I don't know what case they're doing this time but

that was one story was about a sexual assault I think wasn't it? I didn't watch that one. It was very good actually in the sense that it really made you think about the process They had two separate juries. They reached two different verdicts, basically. So, yeah, this is a really tricky one.

But to our correspondent, I think you've raised such an important issue and thank you for doing it. And you love your brother and you want to think the best of him. But she's wrestling with that, her feminist brain that tells her because it's been so difficult for victims of rape to get justice. God, totally. And also, it still seems to be the case

that consent is not understood. And look, but we all know men get raped too and, you know, God help them trying to get justice, by the way, because I think that's incredibly difficult. And there isn't the right sympathy for that. There isn't, you know, people don't want to talk about it at all. And I understand as well that's being used quite a lot in the Ukraine-Russia war is that prisoners of war are being raped, men, this is.

And it's just something that we just don't want to, we just really think, oh, no, we don't want to. Well, we talked a bit about that, didn't we, with Christina Lamb. Right, yes. And do you know what? I was quite interested, when we put Christina Lam's interview out and she was talking about an exhibition that's at the Imperial War Museum at the moment,

which is about sexual assault used as a weapon of war. And I thought, actually, that we would get quite a big response to it because Christina was very clear about how difficult it had been to get any journalists or newspapers or podcasts or TV shows to talk about it because it's such a difficult subject to entertain and I did think this podcast would be absolutely the right place to start having more of a conversation about it I think we got one email tone and it slightly broke my heart actually

and there was one email that we had that was actually just quite rude and kind of I think it accused me of being too victim-focused and again a bit of my heart broke over that because if we can't talk about all of this stuff here and take it out into the wider world then we're just not going to solve these problems we can have a laugh and we really enjoy having a laugh

and that's what our community is but let's never shy away from stuff like this well it's about as difficult as it gets I would say so thank you to our anonymous correspondent because you've certainly made me think and neither of us are experts and we're not saying we're right about this and I know that I went off on one of my

post-woman's hour rents about statistics and about jurors but I think it was informative there are some uncomfortable but deeply uncomfortable truths out there about this and by the way I'm not telling off our audience for not being in touch I just felt it was an absolute example

of how we we still can't accept some of the darkness in the world no because we don't want to No, of course we don't. Of course you don't. I get that. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore. FIS is 100% online, so you can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca.

Now, this is a really important scandal. It's actually, it is a scandal. And we all ought to know about it. and we certainly ought to talk about it more, and we certainly should care about it. It's sodium valproate, a medical scandal bigger than thalidomide, but still not something that is on the tip of everybody's tongue. Thousands of children in this country are living with the lifelong impacts of this drug, taken by their mothers during pregnancy. And as the years roll by, parents and carers are inevitably getting older

and finding life tougher. It has been over a year now since the Patient Safety Commissioner, produced a report about how a compensation scheme might work and absolutely nothing has happened. The Sunday Times Health editor, Sean Linton, has been following the Sodium Valparate story for many years and he began by explaining just who sodium valperate is prescribed to. So it's mostly prescribed to patients with epilepsy. It's also used in patients with bipolar as well and some use in migraines as well. So for many years it was a first-line choice drug for epilepsy,

even despite known risks of the drug, to unborn babies in women of childbearing age. But it's no longer a first-choice drug, or that's certainly the hope anyway from the medicines watchdog. But is it entirely safe to take if you're a man, for example, or if you're not a pregnant woman? So Valparate is a very effective drug at treating epilepsy. the problem becomes when you're pregnant

and in fact we know that it can actually affect men as well it can affect their sperm and it can there is emerging evidence I think it's best to describe it as which is causing some concern for regulators that men taking Valparate can go on to have disabled children if they obviously have sex with a woman and a baby results the baby can be damaged as a result of the men taking Valpride. There's still science being done on that,

but that is enough of a concern to warrant warnings from the regulators on the use of Valprate, both in men and women. Now, it was first licensed back in the 70s, and when did people begin to report concerns about it? So almost from the beginning there were warnings about it. So Sinoffi, the manufacturer, actually told the then-medic safety committee that there were sort of warning signs of it in animals that it could be teratogenic,

which means it can affect unborn fetuses. And I think the crucial decision of that committee was to press ahead with using the drug and to effectively hide those risks and those warnings from patients. In fact, they used a phrase about they didn't want to cause fruitless anxiety. And they even, in this day and age, I think,

quite a shocking decision, and they decided to maybe alert the doctors, but to keep the issue off the patient leaflet so that the public didn't see it. Which, you know, when you think about what we're talking about in there. That really does stink, doesn't it? It does. It's a bit of, I think it goes back to very paternalistic medicine at the time. But again, as we highlighted in the Sunday Times back in 2022,

this committee had been created in the shadow of another huge drug disaster thalidomide. And so even though their reason for existence was a similar drug issue, they sort of made this decision. And quite frankly, it set the ball rolling for huge amounts of suffering over the decades that followed. Is it fair to say that this is actually a bigger scandal than thalidomide in the sense that many, many more people are affected? Well, we, in the Sunday Times, we called it a scandal worse than thalidomide in 2022. and the reason for that is the estimates are that there are thousands of babies who were affected by valperate. There is a spectrum of that effect. So there are some children who are so physically disabled, they are effectively bedbound and need 24-7 care.

There are other children who have learning difficulties and autism but are able to live a life, but still needing some help and care. And it's everything in between. but there are thousands of those victims. Thalidomide was a devastating drug left children physically deformed. It affected hundreds, I think, in the order of around 500 to 600 babies. So in that sense, we think it Valkyrate is worse. Since our reporting in 2022, the England's Patient Safety Commissioner, Dr. Henrietta Hughes,

effectively adopted our headline, and she described it as a scandal worse than thalidomide and validated what our concerns were. She did more than that. She said these people deserve compensation. Why haven't they had it? Yeah, well, she did indeed back the Sunday Times call for compensation. And, you know, that report is over 18 months old now. And the current Labour government have, I'm afraid, done frankly nothing. They have not explained in any detail any of the work that they say is going on in the background. They provided no details of that, no timeline, nothing at all to the families. The government, I'm afraid, haven't. even said whether they will adopt the principle of redress and paying compensation. This is despite West Streeting the Health Secretary having been photographed with the campaigners

for Valprey redress, holding a poster saying, I support their group. So I'm afraid the question is with the government, you know, what are they going to do about this scandal? It's accepted by all sides across the House of Commons that redress is necessary. There have been, since Henrietta Hughes' report, there's been over. 100 different parliamentary questions from Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, all kinds of MPs, green MPs as well. There is a cross-party consensus that this needs to happen. And I'm afraid ministers just haven't done enough yet to tell us even what they're thinking is.

Well, it's good to know that at least parliamentarians are attempting to bring it to wider attention. Let's just have a listen to the voice of somebody who's right at the heart of this. This is Branwyn Mann. She's now 29, which is an illustration that this isn't about babies and young children anymore. And Brownwin has a fetal valproate spectrum disorder. Here she is. I personally feel let down by everybody, by the IMMDS review, by the government, by all the officials, even by the patient safety commissioner. I mean, there's a reason why a lot of people were totally Valprite they'd like to be out there

I think it's because people are just starting to give up, you know? So Bramwen is somebody, I think, you met her family, Sean, is that right? I've interviewed Branwyn a few times, yes, and she is typical of a child with Valprite who's now into adulthood and that, you know, we have to remember this scandal goes back decades, so these children are getting older and also crucially so are their parents and this is really the issue with valpway

we've got a generation of disabled children they need care they need support people like branwyn have ongoing health issues caused by the drug she's waiting to have several surgeries because of the effects of the drug on her physical body and that's true of many of the children i've met that they have you know ongoing physical problems that require medical intervention, but when their parents aren't there, who is going to look after this generation of children? If we don't put in place now the care plans, the cash to support them, to buy their homes, to give them somewhere to live, what we're going to end up with is children being institutionalised who can't look after themselves, they may become frustrated as children

with autism can do, as adults, they may become violent, etc. The risk is that the system, the police, the NHS, et cetera, throw away the key and put them inside an institution where they won't get the care and live the life that they could. And that will cost the state an absolute fortune. It would be cheaper to put in place

those plans now. Also, these parents, they need that reassurance that their children are going to be looked after, that they're not going to end up being locked up in some grim institution. We already know that that's a problem for children with learning disabilities. So,

I just, I can't emphasise enough this is the right thing to do anyway from just a pure justice perspective. These families were harmed through no fault of their own. This was a state failure. The state owes it to them. But it's also good, cost-effective governance to act now and avoid a bigger bill later on. What does happen to the manufacturer involved?

So Sanofi have, I think, faced calls for compensation. The inquiry into Sodian Valparate by Baroness Cumberidge that was published in 2020, did say that they had a moral obligation to contribute any kind of compensation. But the simple reality is Sanofi did warn at various points, the regulators, about potential risks of sodium valperate. It was the regulators that didn't do what we think they should have done. They hid the warnings, they didn't act quickly enough when the warnings started to emerge.

So it's really a regulatory failure. It's a state failure. This isn't an issue really about the drug. company failing. Although it's interesting to note that in France, Sanofi has faced prosecution and criminal action over some of what it knew when in the 1960s when the drug was being discovered and when concerns were amazed. And in France, of course, some families are being compensated by the state. So I'm afraid the UK is behind the curve on this. Right. And the figures involved, is it simply that the government has looked at what they might have to cough up? And I appreciate

the point you've made about actually, if they don't do something now, it might cost all of us so much more in the future. But they don't think long term, governments in a democracy don't really have to, do they? So they might just be thinking, oh, you know what, we can't. We've got the infected blood scandal. There's the post office compensation that needs to be paid. Frankly, we don't have the money. It's not fair, but do you have any sympathy for that line of thinking?

Well, of course, the government has to manage an economy and manage a public state. I think, however, it is incumbent on any government to stick within the realms of natural justice and to do the right thing. And I think most members of society in Britain would be quite sympathetic to the Valpore families. No, if they knew someone or had this in their family, they would want the right thing to be done.

And I think we also have to do the right thing because it shows to the wider society that the state is behind you, and something like this happens and something goes wrong. We will learn lessons from it. We'll do the right thing. As a government, we will move forward in the right direction. I mean, you raise infected blood.

There are other major scandals as well, the post office scandal, etc. There's a bigger question here about the failure of the state over many decades in Britain that have left these huge scandals and the price tags that come with them. Why does it keep happening? Well, I think it is a question for, you know,

the civil service, machinery of government is slow to respond to warning signs. We saw that with the post office scandal. We saw it with infected blood. We've seen it with Valpolite. There were signs there. There were alerts raised. But the machinery of government, the machinery of the NHS and the regulators sometimes puts, you know,

that's in the too difficult pile. Or the reputation of the NHS or the government needs to be protected. And actually it's that unwillingness to accept difficult conversations. difficult truths that might be emerging, which means there's a temptation to cover up. And I think we've certainly seen that in Valparate. And I think the government needs to learn the lessons from this. And I'm afraid it needs to pony up. These families were not harmed through any action of their own.

This was done to them by a failure of the state, and it has a responsibility. And I think West Streeting knows this. I'm hoping that there's some serious work going on behind the scenes, because he needs to go and meet some of these families, see how they're living, and they're scratching a living on benefits. Some of them are being dragged to benefit tribunals to justify their disability from what is a lifelong condition

that will never get better and yet they're constantly being put under pressure. These lives have been stolen from these children and their parents who have to care for them 24-7. This was all done to them. It's time for the government to do the right thing. Well, I think everyone listening will think, yeah, we've got to step up.

Or they've got to step up. West Streeting has said, I think, that he has sleepless nights about the state of maternity services. Maybe you should be having a few sleepless nights about this as well. Absolutely. I think if I was West Street in, there'd be a lot of things keeping me up at night. He's got a huge difficult job. And he's coming in after 15 years of delayed decisions

and underfunding for the health service, as we've seen across the country in other sectors. There's a lot of work to be done. He's prioritising certain things. I'm afraid the Valparate Children need some prioritise. Sean Linton of the Sunday Times. He is the health editor there. And you might be thinking, well, they've talked about sodium and valproate before we have. And I just feel this, we've just got to keep going back to it until these people get their money. Because just the impact on lives, just colossal. It's not glamorous. It's not something too many people want to focus their minds on. But Sean's doing a sterling job there, keeping it or trying to keep it in the headlines. Jane and Fee at times dot radio is our email address and tomorrow our guest on the podcast

and on the show in the afternoon Yes No I was going to give you the opportunity to do our message my handy Two till four That's that one come on come on sorry sorry Sorry she's just having her little sleep That's the Times Radio show fee isn't it It's 2 till four Monday to Thursday

And it's available You can take us with you if you're going out and about possibly looking for big cats in your area. It's Jane and Fee at times dot radio if you want to email but if you just want to listen it's the Times Radio. Yes, okay, you've done that. Mandy's back off. Sure off. Sophie Watson's on the program tomorrow. She wrote into the podcast when we were talking about cities and she is an expert on urban planning so we booked her as a guest. Fabulous. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee.

Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio. app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you for your patience. Your call is important. Can't take being on hold anymore? Fizz is 100% online. You can make the switch in minutes. Mobile plans start at $15 a month.

Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca.