Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I don't know what drugs you're on today... (with Maggie O'Farrell)

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

In today's pod, Jane and Fi dive into the strange world of secret donors, invading people's dreams, and the tragic tale of Ronnie the dead rodent. Plus, they speak to bestselling author, Maggie O'Farrell about her latest novel, Land, and what the Oscars red carpet is actually like. You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/ Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's always worrying, isn't it? It's an open plug. Jack on the floor. Is it a jack? Anyway, sorry, writing a note there. Maggie O'Farrell's husband's teeth. So she's got an imprint taken from one of his sporting mouthguards. I mean, that's a line of questioning in itself, isn't it?

And so she keeps an imprint of his teeth on a shelf in her writing shed to remind her to write with bite. I just love her. I think she's a properly genius accent. trick and one of many, many examples. Well, I'll certainly bring it up. Maggio Farrell is our guest. Yes, and she has written this incredible new novel called Land,

which has been highly praised across the spectrum. And as already, they've already got the film rights. The same people who made Hamnut. Well, I'm not surprised. I mean, they'd buy a shopping list, wouldn't they, after Hamlet? Yeah, nobody would buy my shopping list yesterday. Oh, don't put yourself down. No, darling.

Do you tell us what's on it. Eggs, tomatoes. I can't see it. of being a big seller. It's so useful they're having that notes option on your phone, isn't it? Oh, it is funny. So do you occasionally glance back at the old ones when you're making a new one? Really tragic.

Just brilliant, aren't they? Absolutely brilliant. I did, I was going to put this up on Instagram, actually, but I'm not on Instagram. I'm having a pause. It was a little list that I found when I was clearing out one of the many, many, many boxes because I'm having to do Avon. I'm Avon? You cook me, bleeder.

North London. Blimey guv is wrapped up for me. My youngest daughter has taken to singing North London forever just to annoy me. Driving me up the wall. Shut up. I think that's fabulous. I'm having, oh, for goodness sake,

what is wrong with you? I'm having to do that massive, massive sort-out of, you know, 20 years of family stuff because we are moving on to a smaller abode. And I keep finding all of these things. and there's just this magical list that I wrote. I think at some time in the 1990s, I would have been about 23 or 24,

and it says a tray, whiskey, eggs, vanilla pods. Oh, those are the days, hey. And it was just, when I looked at it, I just thought, God, that was just such an exciting time in my life. It was so much more exciting than my lists now, which like yours are eggs, tomatoes, loo roll. Dettel, question mark. Yeah, it's grim, isn't it?

Whiskey, eggs. and a little pods and a tray to carry it all on. Where was the trade going? I don't know. But the fact that you clearly were living the good life and were so carefree, at that time in our lives, do we ever know that's what we are?

That's my... I don't think we do. Isn't that the tragedy of it? No, you see, I think that's the glory of it. I think if we knew that that was freedom, that it would go, it would be replaced by other things, I don't know whether we would act the same way.

I don't like looking at my life like that. It just was what it was. And I love the fact that it just was. I mean, it was way more chaotic. There's loads about my 20s. I would never, ever, ever want to revisit. But I love the fact that it had those moments that are so different to now.

I wouldn't want the two things to be connected by predictions. Okay, well, good, but I would read the book about your 20s. That's the book you should write. Have you got copious notes? It's not yet. No, well, okay. I'll read yours, though. Yours is more dynamic than people might think.

I beg to differ. It's actually nowhere near as dynamic as in my dreams. I occasionally conjure up dynamism, but I've never actually lived it. I think, no, the lady doth protest. No, I absolutely don't. We've had a horrifying email for a woman, and I totally get what she's saying here. There's nothing more dreary than other people's dreams,

but she's called Fiona. She says, I just want to tell you of a recent trauma I'm suffering with. Oh, this is terrible. Other people's dreams are boring, so I'll keep it short. Can you please assure me, Jane, that you didn't start a secret relationship with Jeremy Coxon in lockdown. You haven't recently married him, and you're definitely not having twins.

Okay, Fiona, he properly irritates me. He really does if I hear him coming up on any form of media or in any way present in my eye line, everything goes off. The paper is shut, the radio's turned off, the television never goes on when I think he might be lurking. Can't bear the man. Have I made myself clear? You have.

So the likelihood of you having entertained him in a fecund way. And the likelihood of me being able to bring forth twins at the moment is... Well, the likelihood of him being able to love. It's well said. Thank you. He's in the greatest shape, is he? No, no, he's to be fair. He's had a few health issues.

But that, and I certainly don't mock those at all, I know who brings pleasure to millions. Just not to me in my dreams or anywhere else. So, relax Fiona, didn't happen. Okay, but, I mean, is it good to know that you're featuring in people's dreams anyway? It's great, actually. It's really good. Do you like it?

I don't like it at all. There are two mum friends who I bumped into recently in the hood, and both of them have said, oh my God, Fie, you were in a dream of mine the other night. I find it really spooky. Oh, no, because I'm fast asleep, and the idea of me lolloping across somebody else's subconscious, it's fabulous. I felt genuinely kind of, I felt sad for them that I'd interrupt in the life.

Well, there is that. It was very odd, but I can never remember my dreams. They dart like minnows now in the morning. Can't grasp them at all. Oh, really? Yeah. Some days they linger with me. too long. I just want to mention Jules. She says the email's got the fantastic and slightly unnerving top line,

Catherine Cooxton drowned my cousin. Listening to your chat about the above author and sending this from Catherine Cuxon country itself, which is the north-east of England, whilst residing in the north-east of England in the 80s when men were men and women just put the tea on the table, my young cousin was cast in the film and stage production of the 15 streets by Catherine Cuxon, playing the younger sibling of the wonderful Jane Horrocks and Owen Teal she unfortunately met a watery end in a tragic boating accident not a dry eye in the house my auntie is still traumatised at the thought of her canny bairn meeting such a fate

keep up the sterling work and see you in North Berwick says Jules can't wait can't wait too fringe by the sea tickets available on the website special guest star Jan Raven she'll really really tickle your ears she is an impersonator is that the right term She's an impressionist. Impressionist, sorry. I knew it was a bit off-target. It's very close.

I think impersonate is the kind of criminal version. Oh yeah, that's true, actually. I've been caught for impersonating again, Jan. No, I don't think she's ever got a criminal record. No, no, no, no. Which actually makes her quite unique in showbiz, probably. We would be very happy to welcome her to the stage in North Berwick. Yeah.

Kinemar comes in from Nella in Yorkshire. Maybe it's to do with the movement kinetics. Never thought about that. Have you asked your mum about that? No, I'm going to say that for a special back holiday lunch. After all, films are now known as movies. I did study Latin at school, Nella tells us, and in 2018, did a week refreshing my knowledge

at the wonderful Gladstone Library in Flintshire. But I haven't looked up kinetics for you as I'm in a CBA mood. Oh, good. Can't be asked. Well, let's just stop the podcast right here because I'm in a very similar mood, Nella. But Nella follows it up by saying,

don't get me started on people, including politicians who say nuclear, for nuclear, as if there's an extra ooh in it, yours for many hours every week. Well, it was good of you to be asked to send that. I'm with you. We've got a colleague here who says news, haven't we, instead of news. News stig. I think it's real name Stuart. Stuart? Isn't it Stuart?

I think it's Stephen. Is it Stephen? Okay. Because I was thinking maybe if it was Stuart, there was something about stew that he didn't like. So it'd always been a stew, but that just doesn't matter. up, does it? I've wasted some time. I don't want drugs you're on today, but well it's a Thursday and actually it's a good point I've had a headache since yesterday morning as I've taken

quite that I'm right at the edge of my pain relief. Sometimes those heads that are not so bad that you can't go into work but just take possession of the top half of your body and can lurk for three or four days are I think one of the worst aspects

of midlife. I really do think they're horrible and you can wake up with them sometimes. or even conjure them up in the night, can't you? Totally, yeah. Horrible. Yep, and it is that feeling in the morning, you know, where there's actually a pressure on your head, and you do think, gosh, lifting my head off the pillow's going to hurt.

And it does. I mean, it's just like, oh, oh. So it'll pass, it'll pass, it'll pass. And we've got a lovely long weekend coming up, actually. We're not here on Monday, because we've got a day off that we have no idea why. We honestly don't know why this is happening. And we wonder whether that's just a gentle buildup

to being properly far. But anyway, for whatever reason, we're not here on Monday. So we'll be back with you on Tuesday. Lost in the midst of time, but I think you'll probably cope. Oh, yeah, I think you'll cope. And, I mean, it's come as a brucey bonus, I think. Except I think the weather's still a little rocky. But at least there isn't a tube strike.

Gosh, it was cramped on the Hammersmith and City line this morning. Oh, my goodness. Well, I feel for you, because actually my journeys have been just like everybody's kind of gone home for the weekend and I can finally get a seat. It's just quite odd. Well, I don't... The Hammersmith and... No, nobody's interested in me.

No, I am, Jane. Oh, I am. Keep going. It's a bit like dreams. I was saying to Hannah earlier, other people's commutes, fundamentally, who gives a shit. I made the mistake of complaining to my sister the other day and she said,

well, don't live in London. Otherwise, not... It was that simple. Anyway, I should say, actually, my sister is 60 today. Oh, happy birthday, Alison. She doesn't listen. Alison.

Did it annoy you that there was a song that was ragingly good? in our youth that would have fitted her time of... Yeah, but don't forget, Alison by Elvis Costello, it's a good song, isn't it? It's a slight, when you actually listen to the words, I don't think he'd had a great time, I think he'd been rather cruel to Alison.

But yes, I think he's one of the few songs about an Alison, actually. Whereas Jane, well, you've got Goodbye to Jane by Slade, Rod Stewart, of course, baby Jane. The Rolling Stones had a song, I think, Lady Jane. So, yeah, I'm all right for songs. Yeah, yeah. Well, what a...

Where does we? Fiona featuring songs? Well, the only one that I can think of is, I think Fiona is in a lyric of the Sky Boat song, but I might be wrong. Not exactly. It's not top of the pops, is it? Sky Boats.

I can't. I can't recall whether actually that's just something that somebody made up a verse for me to sing when I was young. But no, I can't think of any Fiona's and any lyrics anywhere. Isn't there at the House Martin song where they... Oh, no, but that's just a little. long-listed names, isn't it? I don't think that curse. Maybe Fiona features in that, doesn't it?

Yeah, I don't know. You might be right. Montrose does feature, then, and everything but the girls' songs. Oh, yeah, no. Yes, you're catching. Boom! Is Crosby featured in any of the Beatles back? No, but we... Is anyone still awake? We did. Don't forget. I'd rather hear the Hammersmith and Circle Line story to be off.

It's City Line. I'm sorry. Well, you shouldn't live in West London. Why would I know that? Although, we do share with the Circle for a large part of the journey. Anyway, okay, no one is it. Right, I'm going to move on to a serious issue. Yes, could you, please? Can you actually just plant some content in this unfurtile ground?

Well, this is from Kate, who says, I've tried to address this with you on WhatsApp, but I've never had a response. I'm not quite sure. How could we have been reached on WhatsApp? Not sure. Maybe you mean Insta. But actually, Kate makes a good point here.

We're talking yesterday about origins and roots and culture, and this is of some significance today because Maggi O'Farrow's book, Land, is about precisely that land. I mean, it's about the famine, it's about Ireland, it's about people, it's about prehistory, but fundamentally it's about land. And actually there's just a quick,

can I just quote from the book here? Here we go. The patch of flatland around which the streams flow where the ancient elders had their altar and invoke their gods, not far from Brith, that's a character, and her dog's place of burial, is indifferent to the bloody and fearsome shifts

going on all around it. All land is. One tribe gives way to another. High kings, the tack chieftains. Chiefs invoke the aid of a foreign army. Another tribe slaughters and drives out a third. The people from one side of a river snatch their territory of those from the far side.

And on and on it goes. The land is still the same. It stays the same. Whoever's in charge of it, whoever lives there. So I hope that doesn't put people off the book, but that just gives you an idea that it's not just about people, it's about the land itself. Anyway, Kate says, frankly, when you speak about nationality and belonging to roots and culture, etc., as you did yesterday, could you please remember

that some of us have no freaking idea where or who we are from, nor our cultural heritage? It depended on the adoption system back then to share honesty, and they didn't. It was very cloak and dagger. I've had at my own expense, had to be DNA tested and find honest court records. Many of us were adopted because it wasn't okay back then to have a child out of wedlock. Some of us more recently because we were removed from parental situations deemed unsafe for us. So just to that point, neither you nor I have been adopted. So I suppose we will never understand what that feels like. I mean, I absolutely say to you, Kate, in all honesty,

I can't imagine what it feels like to not be completely certain who you are, where you're from, or as you say who you're from. And that's really, really tough. So I think we do take it for granted, don't we? Definitely. And I'd be quite interested in hearing more from Kate because I think it's a very valid voice at the moment, not least because it challenges our perceptions that there's something to be gained from knowing your identity.

Because I bet Kate has thought so much more about who she is, about where her character comes from, about her personality traits, than people who don't need to examine themselves so closely, who can just point at a grandparent, point at a place, feel something of recognition. So I'd love to hear a bit more about that. But you're right to enter the fray with that as well because I don't think people take enough notice. And also, as we've talked about quite often on the podcast before,

through wonderful guests, those records are so, so poor that when people go in search of more detail about their origins, the redactions can often be so hurtful and so disappointing. And I think the more we can talk about that, the better. Because you should be entitled to know. and so many people have tried to find out and it's not being great.

No, no. We're very sorry, Kate, because we do speak from a position of privilege on lots of subjects and that's certainly one. Yeah, and quite often, Jane, I mean, let's be honest, we speak from a position of ignorance. No, I'm not sure. Yes, we do.

And that's what's wonderful about the podcast because people point things out to us. Can I just say, actually, we had a bit of an incident on the show, didn't we yesterday? Gosh, I've got an email about that. Yeah. Should we try and find that email? because I did just want to say that the difference between the way that...

It's from Lynn. Lynn, lovely, okay. So I'm just going to read out, Lins, and this will illuminate you as to a little bit about what happened yesterday. So we were on air between two and four. It's a wonderful afternoon program. We very much enjoyed doing it.

I was listening today when you read out the comments from some rather frustrated men complaining that they thought they were listening to Women's Hour. So we did one piece across two hours that was based on Michelle Obama, having said that she didn't believe that she had ever met a white man with imposter syndrome. Now, bearing in mind, she has met Donald Trump. That's very true.

He doesn't have it, does he? So we then said, well, actually, we know lots of men do have imposter syndrome. We know some of the most unlikely people have imposter syndrome. So we had a decent conversation about that. Helen Rumbler, who's a fantastic journalist here at the Times, had written a piece about that. but also about women being angry. So a survey has revealed, Jane,

that British women are angrier than nearly any other type of woman in the world. So we had a conversation about that. So across the space of two hours of output, we'd also just done 20 minutes on prostate cancer. We really had done 20 minutes from prostate cancer. And we'd obviously started with the incredibly serious story about one young man being murdered by another young man, which is rightly dominating the headlines at the moment.

but off the back of that we just had a slew of comments from our male listeners they just went up on the text ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding why am I having to listen to women's hour if I wanted to listen to women's hour I'll be at Radio 4

why do you always end up talking about you know female perspective I mean it was just extraordinary and Lynn has pointed out firstly well done for reiterating all the male related topics that had just been covered in a short space of time and secondly regarding the apparent anger issues that those of us of a certain age now seem to be afflicted with, I'm not sure that we are any angrier,

maybe it's just that finally we found our voices and are able to articulate our frustrations more vehemently. And I would completely agree with you, Lyn. And I think what happened on the afternoon show absolutely proves that, that women may always have wanted to talk about things that they wanted to talk about. It is rare for a radio show to have two women as a helm.

I think that's what drives some listeners. And some listeners just cannot stand hearing it. So we have a very, very different communication with all of you in the hive. And I'm very grateful for that, Jane. But you know, I think sometimes it's good for me to be exposed to what listeners that wouldn't listen to the podcast are thinking and feeling. Very much so. And that's behind the choice of many of our guests as well.

They're certainly not all bad. No, they're not. In fact, didn't the complaining man, at least one of them, then message back to say, sorry, I'd only been listening for four minutes. Yeah. So... I missed the bit of back cross dates. Yeah.

You've absolutely nailed his voice there. I really hope Jeff's not tuning into this. Oh, that's good. So, no, he bunged straight back in with, oh, look, I'm really sorry. You know, I'd only just come in and just tuned into this. But the thing is, don't text. Why not just listen to, you know, why women are feeling angry and take it on board. And also, we weren't having a...

particularly kind of aggressive, you know, fold our arms across our chests chat. Ironically, we were both much more angrier when we'd seen the messages like we have been before. That's true. But the thing about female anger is often mocked, it's mockable, isn't it? We know that. And it's something to be avoided. Where male anger can end in tragedy. Well, we're seeing it all around us.

100%. And I think one of the under-discussed elements of the truly terrible... murder of Henry Novak is that what we actually have here is male violence. One young man savagely ending the life of another. That's actually what has happened

here. And it's really, really grim. I know there's a lot more to it and I mean, I can't stand. Another person I can't stand is Nigel Farage and yesterday I think he probably outdid himself from being, you know, just a spectacularly unhelpful,

nasty comments. which have been rightly condemned by almost everybody else in our political world. And he still keeps going. And he still keeps going to go. That is the man who just is never going to row back on anything. Well, no, as actually I think a Liberal Democrat MP said in the Commons yesterday, you know, it's made him a very rich man all this. Yeah, hasn't it just?

And it definitely stops people from talking about the five million pound. Yes. acking that he had from the Thai crypto businessman. Well, don't talk about that five million quid fee. we all had it I mean because I get five million quid on a weekly basis do you get that from a middle-aged man based in Thailand lovely climate I just think he likes me and I don't question it what do I spend it on that's between me and my your cheeseboard

cheese cupboard and my portfolio of properties in Dubai excellent don't tell anybody of a five million quid that Nigel Farage talk no but let's not talk about it but Hannah coffee's on Jane this afternoon Definitely. Maria joins us from a thunderstormy Zurich. She's after shoe recommendations as well. Now Maria is a 5 foot 2 inch lady with a size 34 shoe. That's the size 2. Gosh, that's tiny. teeny. The bane of my life says Maria, any ideas for good shoes that are not trainers would be really appreciated. So we did talk about this before. So we've got Sargasso and Grey. We've got Oliver and we've got bobbies as well.

The first and the last are really expensive So you have to hunt them down either on the eBay Or wait for the sale And I mean sometimes like eye-wateringly expensive But they do go down to a 34 Definitely a 35 If you don't want trainers Then the other recommendations aren't any good

And swimsuit says Maria Any recommendations would be appreciated For lake swims this year Do you know I'm probably not the best person To make those recommendations anymore Maria because I've kind of stopped swimming In the very very big cold places And I've always swum

When I don't need a wetsuit, I've always just swam in a fashion swimsuit. I haven't really bought those, you know, the speedos and the zip-up things and whatever. I've always rather gloried in the fact that I could at any minute, any minute, be transported to cost. Oh, yeah, and it could happen, couldn't it? I always felt just preposterous in a speedo because, you know, I wasn't that quick. You weren't in training. No, well, I just wasn't very quick. It just felt ludicrous.

The racing back thing as well, you just, you really, really, really don't need. that unless you're properly properly. So if you've got a bigger bust, more boobage, you can never make that work. I don't know what it is about the word bust. It does give me. It's very stuffy, isn't it? My bust.

There's another one. Easy grass leaf blow. Jane, I thought the easy grass was going. Is there a need for the leaf blower? It's a good question. It's arrived now, anyway. I haven't assembled it. I'm going to have to ask for assistance. instructions as ever are more complicated than I might have anticipated and although last night I did manage to

possibly find a solution to my dryer which for some weeks now has been doing everything except drying it does a few sort of desultry is that the right? Yeah. Spins and then just packs in and anyway after quite a lot of googling I found a tip that involved white wine vinegar so stand by your beds

I did actually dry a sheet last night and it seemed to work quite well so let's see whether I've solved that situation okay well if not couldn't you just hang up all the sheets and get the leaf blower in together wow that wouldn't annoy the neighbours at all somebody did say why didn't you just ask your neighbour

if you could borrow their very very powerful loud leaf flower it seemed far too macho for me to be wielding no I've organised a lady ladyblower which sounds all wrong when I think about it but that's what I thought Right, move on quickly to David. I can't wait to see that. David, born in Liverpool but lives in Manchester, so don't get me started on which is better. Okay, well, we won't. What prompted me to write this time was the mention of eavesdropping on strangers' conversations.

I've been carrying around a puzzle for about 35 years now after overhearing the conversation of three women on the Mersey Ferry. I had friends visiting and a trip across the river does appear to be compulsory. The three women were sitting in silence, just taking in the view. when one of them suddenly said, I've remembered what that word was, membrane. The other two just looked at her and nodded sagely.

I've often wondered what on earth they were talking about earlier in the day. David, thank you. 35 years is a long time to carry that round in your head. I wonder if we can solve that particular puzzle. What do you think? I think it's unlikely, but I think it rests rather beautifully on the shelf of anecdotes.

Yes. Let's just leave it there. Okay, yeah. membrane. It's a pleasurable word to say. Something about it. Yeah, but it's up there with meniscus. Yes. Similar thing. The end of civilisation is going to remain an anonymous email. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news and I'm not really sure how to break this to you. But I teach at an international school and have recently been conducting the oral component of the English GCSE exams. One of the discussion questions asked is whether it's acceptable to eat and drink during a performance

at the cinema or the theatre. Isn't that interesting? I didn't think that would be a question. Not one, not a single one, out of 20 plus students who got that question, not one suggested that eating during a live theatre performance might be considered unacceptable.

Now, these are lovely thoughtful people, many come from families, fortunate enough to attend the theatre several times a year, so you can imagine my surprise. Curious, I dug a little deeper, was some foods more acceptable than others, perhaps a discreet chocolate button,

versus a family-sized bag of crisps, apparently not. Popcorn, fine. Crisps, fine, anything else, also fine. When I suggested that someone enthusiastically working their way through a sharing bag of salt and vinegar crisps during a quiet dramatic scene might be a little distracting, several students felt that the resolution was for the theatre to turn the volume up. The theatre should be louder to compete with the crisps.

At that point, I genuinely ran out of follow-up questions. My students are a delightful bunch, but this exchange left me completely speechless and wondering whether I've accidentally become 97 years old. You haven't, but that is so, so depressing. Because if there's a whole generation that just thinks going to the playhouse is just an opportunity to carry on eating your snacks, then we're done for. It's over. Culture is dead. Our correspondent teaches at an international school. Yes.

In the UK or elsewhere? Well, I think if they're taking the English GCSC exams, they're here, but it's an international school. Okay, well, but we can't, this isn't strictly speaking an example of broken Britain, is it? Broken Britain, it's broken. You can't say anything. You'd be surprised, you can say pretty much what you like. Okay, well, I'm disgusted. Yes, I'm disgusted too.

I did try, it sounds like there's been an amazing, just open to production. society, which is a musical I've never seen. It's got incredible reviews and I was trying to get tickets, but it is quite pricey. Oh God, no, we can't do the Theester Pricing thing again. No, no, I know. I know that it's... What's the cheapest? Well, I think they were on the thing, it said 30 quid, but then I couldn't find any of it. You know what it's like? It says tickets from 30 quid. But, you know, that's if you're... I just don't think I'd get them. Anyway, look, if anybody's seen that production, it's on the barbican, do you let me know. Oh, the barbican. Oh, the barbican. Oh, the barbacan. We've played the barbacin.

From Anonymous, and you'll understand why, listening to your chat about brownies and scouts, I wanted to say I was a very proud bobb a jobbing brownie back in the 60s. Looking at the tradition through a 21st century lens, it now seems quite unthinkable, in fact, outright negligent that supervising adults, pack leaders and parents should even contemplate encouraging unaccompanied eight, nine and ten-year-olds to knock on strangers' doors, asking for a bob in exchange for carrying out a random, helpful target. and yet we oblivious to the potential perils simply loved it. It was literally one of my favourite Saturdays of the year,

linking up with two fellow Brownie cousins ready and willing to wash dishes, pop to the co-op, dust a mantelpiece, or whatever else our neighbours could task us with, then proudly returning home to count the day's takings. And we shouldn't, of course, assume that every single person, every stranger who answers the door to bobber-jobbing brownie in the 60s was a pervert. obviously the overwhelming majority mercifully were not

so it all passed off uneventfully but we also had brownie camps as well our parents would drop us off at a wooden cabin at the edge of the woods and we stayed there for five days pretty much left to the hands of fate yes there were organised activities and responsibilities in the form of helping

prepare meals cleaning up the place but in our free time young girls away from home for the first time we just roamed on our own in the woods until someone shouted loudly enough for us to hear that it was tea time. It beggars belief. I know everybody says now, oh, back in the day,

kids just used to roam, they used to go out, you used to open the back door, and you wouldn't see them again until tea time. It obviously did happen in our correspondence experience, but I actually think parents kept a slightly tighter grip than we sometimes suggest that they did. God, I disagree.

Really? Okay. We would definitely leave first thing in the morning, come home as late as we possibly could. She also says, on one of our feral forays, I took pity on a dead vol. I came across on a path. So I brought it back to keep on my bedside locker. Nobody questioned it.

By the time we were picked up at the end of the trip, my mum wasn't particularly thrilled to be shown my dead rodent companion. No, I can imagine that your mom probably took a firm line on that. This is Ronnie. He's a dead rodent, and he's coming home with us. Also, she does have something to confess. For over 40 years.

Now, we've already had one email today about something that happened 35 years ago on the Mersey Ferry. But this correspondent has for over 40 years brazenly lied to everyone who ever asked me how many driving tests I took. My friends, my husband and my children, basically anybody I met after 1981 believes that I passed for the second time. The reality is that I scraped through on the sixth attempt. I was a competent enough learner, but unexpectedly an uncharacteriouristic. a shaking, terrified wreck come test days. After the first debacle, the very thought of the next

test, and there were many, caused a level of physical and mental anxiety I haven't experienced before or since. Remarkably, there are a handful of people who know my terrible secret, but somehow the subject has never come up in their company, or perhaps they genuinely don't remember. So I simply continue to lie with abandon. In fact, I almost believe it myself now. Yes, but anonymous. It was on your conscience and you've told us. And I know your name. Gosh, that sounds very threatening, doesn't it?

I tell you what, if that's the only thing that weighs down your conscience, you're absolutely fine. She hasn't got a lot to worry about that. No, no. I often wonder how people who've got a lot on their conscience. I always wonder what their third age is like. What, you think things must come back to haunt them? Well, there's definitely a lot to be said for the busy years of middle age, keeping out, you know, any of those kind of demons, whether it's regret or, you know, whatever it is.

But, I mean, I suppose if you're a decent person, aren't things always going to be troubling you? And the more time you have on your hands, the more they're going to trouble you? You would think so. Yes. Yeah. You really would think so. But I think we can let this particular... Yes, I think you're fine.

You're asking. It's a bit naughty. We wouldn't do it ourselves. We wouldn't have done it. I didn't have done. I did. So my dad never passed a driving test. He was one of those people who drove vehicles in the army,

so they just gave you a driving licence. What, and sent you off to try? Well, you just were never examined. You never had to take a test for the real world. But as he pointed out, he had driven tanks. There was quite a lot about his driving that suggested he could have benefited from a little bit of mirror signal manoeuvre. Are there mirror all?

To my ignorance, I don't know, are they mirror? I think there are mirrors on a tank. I think these days you've got an awful lot of other kind of things. But one of his favourite, favourite anecdotes from his time in the army was about overturning a tank. And there is a fantastic picture of mass a great big tank upended in a ditch. I think it was only on practice manoeuvres. I don't think it was actually in the theatre of war, as they call it. Terrible, horrible term. I really hate that term. So, yeah, I think, yeah, whatever. Tanks are weird.

I may spend the rest of my life never entering a tank. I think that's probably quite likely. In fact, I hope we do end our days never having entered a tank. Yes, it's a good thing to aim for. Thank God there are people willing to be in charge of them, I should say. Yeah, just one more from me on the subject of longevity, which we'll get to at the end. But this is Helen from Teddington,

who says there's an avid listener and Monday Watcher, because we do now have visualization Mondays where we're available on the YouTube who loves your chat banter knowledge and humour since the early days unfortunately I'm totally baffled and intrigued as to why on a very, very warm Monday on the 1st of June,

you had a roaring fake fire halfway up a wall it tickled me and I know it's a studio but has it not occurred to the props people to turn it off during the summer I don't think it has and also I'm not sure what they could replace it with I don't know, just a scene of ice. Just somebody sweating their cobblers off.

Cocktails. Yes, okay, pineapple. But it is quite funny because it was insanely hot. Yes, it was. It certainly isn't now, is it? So we'll need the fire. Of course, we're not doing it on Monday. So it's not available every Monday

because we've got this mysterious day off. Mysterious Monday. But Helen ends by saying, please keep entertaining us. My only other favourite radio presenter is Radio London legend Robert Elms, who I'm fearing, retire soon. Now I've just looked up Bob Elms, his birthday. He's 66 at the moment.

But why will he retire? Well, he's been doing that show at Radio London, formerly GLR since I would say 1995, 1996. So that is a very good innings, isn't it? That's 30 years on the morning show. Yeah, it's a very, very long time. And he's lived through every iteration of that radio station. Certainly has. Yeah. He really, he knows his London, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. I mean, I remember him when he was a writer on the face magazine. Yeah, that was him, wasn't it? That was him, yeah. Well, I'm glad you like him.

Yes, I'm sure he's very talented. But I think, Helen, he may go on and on and on and on and on. I mean, it is a job that has hosted some octogenarians in its time. Oh, God, yes. Jimmy Young was, well, he was rumoured to be well into his 80s when Radio 2 finally plucked up the courage to show him the tour marked. it. And even then, I think he was absolutely, he was outraged. I mean, do you think we'll know when the time is? Oh, God, yes. Do you think, I don't know. Well, I think, I think,

look the way Hannah's looking at him. Now, God's sake. Stop. Yes. Have they, if they not open their email inbox this morning? Oh. We would tell each other, wouldn't we? I suppose so. Yes, there are two of us, plus we're women, so yeah, yeah, we probably would. Yeah. I think sometimes... I don't mean, the difficulty for us is if one of us wants to depart much in the other chain. Oh, I'll rescue you to the floor. It is, I mean, I know that Michelle Obama,

I do think she's wrong when she says that white men don't get imposter syndrome. She might not have met one, but I mean, you and I both met quite a few who we know have got riddled with all sorts of self-doubt. But I think men mask it in a slightly different way, don't they? And let's also be honest, there are some men who have found just so outrageously rate themselves. It's just repopped with... Yeah, and the microphone does draw that type of person to it.

I mean, I think it's a struggle to do this job. Oh, my God, yes, yeah. If you doubt absolutely everything that you say, you know, it would be a weird thing to have chosen to do. So there's... I mean, I think what you're struggling to say is there's some complete pompous asses who just stay forever and ever and ever in broadcasting.

They regard their shows as belonging to them. They don't belong to the listener, they don't belong to the radio station that they're working on, they belong to them. Yeah, they're tosses, aren't they? Okay, right. Let's bring in our guest, Maggie O'Farrell. Maggi O'Farrell, fantastic to see you. Now, you have been to the Oscars, and we will talk about that, only because I'd really like your description of what it's like to attend the Oscars,

and I know you've spoken a little bit about it. But, first of all, Land is, it's just, from my perspective, fantastically interesting, incredibly moving. And for you, a little bit different. I've read some reviews that said, you're asking a lot of the reader. I mean, it's meant as a compliment. Do you take that as a compliment?

Yeah, I think so. I think it's really important not to underestimate readers. I think, in general, readers are pretty intelligent, and I really like it, I think, when novels ask me to take big strides and a big, you know, a large amount of place, a large amount of trust in your storyteller. So perhaps I, I mean, I think you often end up writing

the kind of novels that you yourself would want to read, perhaps. Well, there are elements here of whimsy and mysticism, interwoven with prehistory. And at the centre of it all is the notion that the land itself is all-seeing, all-knowing, forgets nothing, belongs to nobody. Is that right? Yeah, I was interested in this book,

And I knew that I wanted to write a really big book. I don't know why. I was just in the mood for a long, involved, complicated book, I think. And I was interested in contrasting the permanence of landscape against the butterfly-type length of human lives, you know, how we are just so impermanent when you compare it to the lifespan of a landscape. So I wanted, yeah, the two, that contrast interested me, I think, writing this book. But we just think we're so important, don't we?

I think as a race we do. We are very wedded to our supremacy, I think, as a race. But actually, you know, if you think about the lifespan of, say, you know, geology, we're pretty new-comers, aren't we, right? Here today, gone tomorrow. Let's talk about the inspiration for land, which I think I'm right in saying it was your great-great-grandfather did make maps. Tell me what you know about him. Well, we've always had this myth in our family. and I think all families have their myths, but ours was that one of our antecedents, and I think we were told as children

drew the first ever map of Ireland, as if... So I kind of grew up with this image that he was a sort of one-man band striding about the landscape, perhaps with a 20-inch ruler in his hand. Obviously, none of that is true. But I was interested, I think,

when I was starting to think about this book of the seed of truth in myths, I think all myths have at least a seed of truth, sometimes more. and so I did go to the Ordnance Survey Archives in Dublin just to see if I could find him and also to find out if any of this was true and it was true but he was very hard to find

mostly because if you were Irish and you worked for the Ordnance Survey which was a British government organisation and mostly run by the British Shami there was a ruling that you weren't allowed to sign your own work if you were Irish so he was hard to find so I think it's very possible and very likely that in Dublin there are lots of field

notes, notebooks, draft maps, measurements and comments that are all his, but I can't be sure because his signature wasn't on them. But I could see his name and his signature. What was his name? Well, you know what? I've decided not to say his name just because the book is fiction. And also I feel quite protective of him in a way. And also, you know, I'm very far from his only antistead, very far. And also I feel like I should leave him in peace. And, you know, He had no idea that at some point his great Craig Randolph was going to... Which actually takes novel.

To the heart of the story. We're here today, gone tomorrow. Who knows what people are going to think of us in a hundred years' time? Exactly. Exactly. But finding his signature on certain memorandum, he was listed as a labourer. Finding his signature in the list of labourers was an astonishing moment,

you know, that you realise this is true and he did exist. And I am touching the piece of paper that once upon a time he signed his name to. Now, at the heart of land is the... the Great Hunger, the Potato Famine. What is your preferred term for what happened in the 19th century? Well, I think the best term is Angkoramore, which is the Irish for The Great Hunger. I think to call it a famine is part of the story

because obviously it did have some natural causes. The blight that affected potatoes was actually all over Europe at that time. But just to give you some idea of that, you know, obviously the causes of the Great Hunger or the Great Famine were very complicated. and they go far back, you know, partly natural and the potato blight. It was an ecological event essentially.

Yeah. So upwards of, you know, people think a million people died during those years. And some historians say that's a very conservative number. But just to say that the country which lost the second most people was Belgium, and in Belgium, 50,000 people died. So the huge disparity in those numbers reveals, of course, that there were multiple causes to this. and partly it was to do with many centuries of British occupation in Ireland

and partly it was to do with the British government's attitude to what was happening in Ireland. I mean, when you read about the Great Hunger, I think the question that flooded my mind the most was how could something of this magnitude been allowed to happen so close to one of the richest empires in the world at the time? Yeah, and I was really struck reading the book that so little is known in the general population now about this.

I'm talking about, I don't mean in Ireland. I mean here, we're sitting in London right now. And I certainly was never taught about this at school. No, I wasn't either. Despite being almost certainly descended from someone who'd ended up in Liverpool because of the great hunger. And I don't think any, I mean, and you'd say you weren't either. But presumably every Irish school child will learn about this.

I believe so. I believe that's correct, yes. And I was at comprehensive school in Scotland and we did lots of history and we never learnt about the famine. It was kind of mentioned but I mean I knew about it obviously because my parents have a lot of books

in Ireland and Irish history. But yes, it seems like a big omission and I think my husband who's a Londoner when he read an early draft of the book he came in halfway through and just said I had no idea I had no idea that this happened. No, well we need to know

and we need to talk about it not least because of all the the issues that have arisen since, the so-called troubles and everything else that everybody lived through and so many people who lived through that didn't really know about how we got to this point. I mean, it's so significant. And actually, the figures are so startling.

The population in Ireland was over 8 million then. It still isn't at 8 million now. Yeah, I think it's... That was one of the things that really, one of the many things that made me want to write the book was that the idea that the population of Ireland is only now just about reaching pre-famine levels. I mean, that's, you know, what is that 100?

Nearly 200 years, nearly 200 years. Which is appalling when you think it's taken that long just for that statistical population census number to recover. And a lot of that is to do with immigration, I think, in Ireland. Yeah, people are flocking to live in Ireland. And, of course, at the heart of this novel, are people leaving Ireland because they had to

but also what I thought about this book was sometimes it's just as hard to stay isn't it as to leave what would you say about that yes I think with this book I was interested in and you know history books and rightly so focus on the people who died a million probably more people who died during those years

and also a lot of the stories are very familiar to us of the people who left you know so somewhere between a million and two million people were forced were evicted and often forced to emigrate usually to North America or Australia and those stories are quite familiar to us you know we know the narrative of arriving in Ellis Island or

gross eel and making a new life for yourself which was an unbelievable undertaking really so astonishingly brave it's so brave and so terrifying the idea that you'd say goodbye to your nearest and dearest and you in all likelihood would never see them again and perhaps you know depending on levels of literacy you may not even have any communication from them again. Yeah, it's unthinkable to us now. But I think what interested me was the idea of what it was like to survive and to stay in that country, which had been completely overturned and was unrecognizable. You know, whole villages had been wiped out. Estates had been redrawn.

What must that have been like to have been living and surviving in a country that had been, you know, had undergone this disaster? One of the names that still resonates down the centuries is Trevelyan. Now he was a British civil servant who did what exactly? So he was appointed Irish famine officer and just as a kind of insight into the attitude of the British government to what was happening in Ireland at that time. He was British famine officer and he wrote in a letter that the famine was a punishment from God for an indolent, ungrateful, unself-reliant country. a year later he was appointed a knighthood

right which we can probably just let that one I don't need to say anything yeah but I mean there's nothing more to say really do you know I actually because I was so fascinated by the subject matter I listened to an addition I don't know if you've heard it of in our time provided by the BBC about the potato famine which I'd never heard before

and they had some very learned contributors as they always do on that programme and one of them said actually although Trevelyan wasn't by any means someone we should let off, the actual real villain of the piece was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a man called Clark.

I mean, if you're looking for villains, you're spoilt for choice, really, in this situation. I think somebody who describes the famine as a punishment from God shouldn't really be appointed. No, that's hideous. Yeah, and there's Clark, and there's...

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're spoilt for choice. There are so many things that could have happened, to save people but didn't. I think it's safe to say that a lot of people in the British government, maybe not everybody, I hope, saw the famine as a way to effect land reform

to clear the land, essentially, of people they no longer felt were useful to them. And the landlords could change from, say, crops to grazing. I think it was seen as a horribly as an opportunity. God, I mean, it really is unbearable. And I really hope that people do explore the whole subject in this country, I mean, in Britain, of the famine, and just educate themselves about it and the repercussions.

Is it hard to imagine a television show or a film of this book? I understand that there are the possibilities, at least, of a film. Hamlet has obviously been filmed. People will know about that. Could you see that happening? And if so, how would you honestly reproduce the effects of The Great Hunger on screen. So the screen rights have been sold

to the same producers who bought Hamnet and I'm really pleased that it's in very good hands. And yes, I mean, I was definitely apprehensive about writing about the Great Hunger. In some ways, you know, Terry Eagleton, the critics said it pushes us to the limit of the inarticitable. But in a sense, you know, if you're going to choose to write a novel

about 19th century Ireland as I did, you can't not write it. about it. And the novel is mainly about how people recovered from it, how they came out from under its shadow. But of course there are scenes set during those years. And it was really important to me that those scenes are taken from or as close to first-hand accounts that I could find. So the central character, Thomas, is in a workhouse for some of the time, isn't it? And how does he end up there and what is a workhouse like at that point? Oh, a workhouse at that time is not a good place to end up. And they were, I mean, actually there is written evidence that they made them as

horrible as possible to discourage people from going in. And one of the rules about going in is that you had to basically give up everything. You had to give up your land and your house. And you had to give up your family. So children were separated from parents, husband, from wife. So it just seemed to me reading accounts of particularly of children in workhouses that the whole generation of children who survived grew up not really knowing who they were or where they were from. And one of the stories that even now skewers me is that there was a young girl who went in and she was the sole survivor of her family. Her father had already emigrated ahead of them to America. And she was from Killari, but they made a mistake writing down and they wrote

that she was from Killarney, just a tiny slip of the pen. And her father, very unusually, I think, came back from America to find her. he realised, he'd heard that she had survived. He went to the workhouse, said, I'm looking for my child from Killari, and they said, we don't have any child from Killari, and he went back to America. And, you know, it's so awful,

and even now the kind of hairs on the back of my neck rise up in horror. So I had to put a similar story into the book. I know you've said in the past that you've lived in Ireland where you felt quite British, and in Britain you feel Irish. Where are you? now? Well, I was a bit nervous writing it because I didn't know whether

people, whether I'm Irish enough really, you know, and I... Yeah, I understand, yeah, I can understand that might have played in your mind. I was worried about that. And also, you know, I would never say to somebody, even though my passport was Irish, I was born in Ireland, and I don't say to people, I'm Irish, because I can hear my little British voice saying that, and it just

is horrifying, so I don't say it. But I feel somewhere in between, I feel both and neither. I don't know if you feel like that too, Jane. Well, I'm not Irish enough to even have a view. She says with her very blue eyes. No, I understand the DNA probably indicates that, yeah, I have. But it's actually so, you hear such a lot about Irish Americans.

Yeah. You never hear about the Irish British. And there are millions of us, aren't there? Absolutely. I mean, everywhere. I've heard that Ireland's greatest, largest export is not Guinness, it's people. And I think it's true. I mean, it's a complicated thing and difficult to go.

And I would never really say that I'm British. You know, I think there are quite a lot of people that if you ask them where they're from, they can't give you a one-word answer. It's often a paragraph, and that's the case with me. But I do think if you don't grow up where you're born or your accent, as in my case, doesn't match your passport, then you always do have this kind of doppelganger or this ghost self that walks along beside you.

And you always think, who would I have been, if I'd say... I mean, I would sound different. I'd have a dairy accent, which would be quite exciting, wouldn't you? Yeah, I mean, Ireland claims you, doesn't it? I don't know. I'm very happy if it does, but I don't really know where I'm from, actually, is the answer. I kind of both and neither. Is it true that you keep,

and the fee asked me to ask you this question, so don't blame me, that you keep a model of your husband's teeth alongside you in your writing shed. It is true, I'm afraid. Well, okay, you're going to have to explain this. Yeah, well, my husband, he's my first reader, so he doesn't, no one reads my first child.

I thought you were going to say he's my first husband, which I thought was, he's my first husband, yeah, my current husband, no, he's my husband. He's always my first husband. first reader, so he reads probably my second or third draft. No one reads my first draft. And he's very, he's quite forthright with his opinions, which is very good, because you don't necessarily want someone to say, yes, it's lovely darling, I mean, which would be nice, but it's not very helpful. So he is, he is quite forthright. And sometimes I have his, he has particularly

nice teeth, I have really rubbish teeth. And he once had... Don't do yourself down. No, I do. I mean, it's fine, you know, I've come to terms of it now, Jane. So he, he once had a, I don't know, some kind of, you know, sport cast made for... It's a sporty type. He is, yeah. Exactly, thank you. That's the word. And he was about to throw them away and I said, can I keep them?

So I had them on my desk because he's quite strict about any sort of slightly fanciful parts of my writing. So sometimes if I'm writing something and I'm enjoying, I think this is a really lovely metaphor. I glance across at the teeth and I think, no. I'm not going to get away with it. He'd chomp it away. Yeah, he would bite it off, yeah. Okay. And back to where we started, Hamnut has the film has been just so phenomenally successful.

And it's put you in a different place. hasn't it? Well, it has. I mean, you're now, well, you know, I mean, every person you meet knows that you wrote the film, wrote the book. I'm not sure about that. Okay, everyone should. Okay, maybe not everybody, but you know what I mean?

What has the impact been on you and on your writing? I mean, it's funny. It was such a strange experience, and from about sort of autumn last year to spring this year, the whole kind of awards campaign happened. I didn't even know you, there was a campaign for awards. It's hard work, I think, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I did maybe 10% of what everybody else did on the film. But it's, yeah, it's very... The whole thing now feels like a really strange dream like I slightly made it up. You know, sometimes when you open up your phone, something flashes up and says two months ago

and there was a picture of me in LA and I thought, was that really, only two months ago, it feels like something happened at the distant past, because it's so out of sync with the rest of my life. It was like something that I made up, actually.

So L.A. is that... the land of what egg white omelets and it's properly weird isn't it? It's very, very strange. The whole experience is very strange and going to things like the Golden Globe is bizarre and the Oscars is a very, very surreal day trip. You'll have to just give us a couple of vignettes from the event. Okay, well, my experience at the Oscars,

it's unbelievably long. I had no idea that it basically takes up 24 hours in your life. Yeah, I mean, you start getting ready in your evening clothes at kind of eight in the morning, you know, you're putting on a frock at breakfast time. There's also no food at the Oscars. You're starving by the end. You know, you kind of...

Well, those people don't eat anyway, do they? That's true. That is also true. But by sort of 9.30pm, and the last thing I'd eaten was an egg white omelet at breakfast, I was ready to eat the upholstery. Favorite Hollywood star you spotted, not the ones you've worked with, but are the ones. I mean, it was all pretty exciting.

Barber Streisand was there, which is really strange. I think, I mean, just to kind of one tiny story about how weird it is for someone who's a civilian like me is that everywhere you kind of move around in the auditorium, you have to queue because everybody's sort of moving around in the ad breaks.

And at one point I was queuing to get out of the auditorium and there were some people talking behind me and I was thinking to myself, I mean, I was slightly jet-lagged and I was thinking, gosh, that man sounds exactly like George Clooney and then I thought, oh yeah, that's because it is George Clooney. Oh, okay, yeah.

He still looks good though, doesn't he? He really does. I can attest, even in real life, he does. He's a very handsome man. Easy on the eye. I think that's a controversial note, but we'll end on that. Yeah, I know, shocking. Maggie O'Farrell and Land is out now. We just had a very moving, quite tearful moment with Hannah.

Do you want to put your microphone on that? Hannah's in charge this week because he's been away. You don't want us to pack it in, you were saying, no. Personally not. No, it's made you very upset. I feel very at home here. Yes. Well, you're an absolute treasure to have on.

board. How old are you, Hannah? 23. I think, honestly, I've seldom met a 23-year-old who carries themselves as well as you do. 24 on Sunday. Oh, well, I don't bat it. So actually, you're 24.

Don't bat it away. You're such a welcome member of the team. And also, we should say that it is Hannah and Eve who books some of the most fantastic guests. So the pastor, the pastor,

was yours and you know we are grateful to you for pursuing things like that because behind the scenes those people are as tricky if not trickier to deal with them by the time they get onto the microphone when they get to the microphone that's their best face yeah they're being their best selves which is sometimes hard to believe yeah so Hannah don't you ever stop don't stop Hannah well she's how many more years of work has Hannah got in her at 23 in her generation 85 yeah 85 years of additional work time. But you'll never forget your early years with us and that's really sweet so we're glad about that. I've assumed you'll never forget them anyway. No. They're seared end.

Seared, yes. Yes, okay. She didn't even say baked. She said seared. Right, we're back on Tuesday. Have a lovely couple of days. It's Jane and Fee at times. Goodbye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live and we do it last. every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.

Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.