Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I don't think there is ever a time when a plop is romantic (with Susie Dent)

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

Jane and Fi are back from their holidays and there is much to get through! Buckle in! They cover Sherwood, food bins, leprosy, open-plan Airbnb's, the Garden of Eden and much more. Plus, Fi speaks to Britain's leading lexicographer Susie Dent about her new book 'Guilty By Definition'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Because I've now got an image of you and Donald Trump that's a little bit hard to separate. That's what my sister said. Where did you go on holiday? Trump Town. Are you listening to this podcast in your car or on your commute to work? Maybe you're dropping your kids off at school.

I'm Dan Snow, and on my podcast Dan Snow's History Hit, I transport you to somewhere a little more exciting. With in-depth series and storytelling, I unravel the mysteries of the Inca at Machu Picchu, follow the footsteps of Howard Carter to Tutankhamen's tomb, and hunt down Shackleton's expedition to Antarctica. For historical adventure and escapism, check out Dan Snow's history hit wherever you get your podcasts. I should be wary of clever women, always.

Right, I try and avoid them. Do you? I try, but it's not easy in my line of work. Now, welcome on board, everybody. It's the autumn term. Would you like me to just move rather than the microphone? The microphone is having a droop. Yeah.

Is that better? I think it's very rigid indeed. Okay, so we're back in position and we're starting the long march towards Yuletide. Don't you dare. Okay, that's the last time. Okay. So we have a rule in our house

that nobody is allowed to mention the Christmas thing at all until after we've got the other side of Halloween. Okay? All right, let's settle for that. Yeah. Okay. And Halloween, of course, is very important on this podcast. That's when we focus on Bromley,

which we will be doing again as we approach All Souls. So that's the day after. Focus on Bromley, which we will be doing again as we approach All Souls. So that's the day after, isn't it? Focus on Bromley. That'd be a short film I'd definitely watch. I wonder whether we've got very many listeners in Bromley. It'd be nice to hear from them. Let's see. James and Fee at Times.Radio.

If they feel that they've been here before. And actually, you've just enjoyed a fantastic week of repeats, so many of you may well be feel that they've been here before. And actually, you've just enjoyed a fantastic week of repeats, so many of you may well be feeling like you've been here before. This is fresh. This one's fresh. Straight out the packet. I'm my food waste bin. You've had one for a while, haven't you?

God, they stink. Don't worry, we'll get on to holidays. Geopolitics. Great with world events in a sec. But yes, I have had one for a while. But what do you do about the smell well is it the heat is that the problem i think it is the heat and i so i've got two food bins and the the one that i didn't empty enough obviously uh over the last couple of weeks

i opened it the other day to put something in and it's just absolutely crawling with maggots. Oh, thank God. Well, that's what I mean. I'm new to this world. And so far, I'm not really enjoying it. I'm hoping winter will be more fruitful in this department. But once they have come, they, the council, the people from the council. Yes.

Once the very kind bin men and women have come to... Can I just stick my neck out here? I don't think there are any bin women. Are there? I think there are. I have occasionally seen a woman on the bins in the Hackney. Have you? OK. But largely it's men who...

They all have their headphones in now and they're all singing along to their individual tunes, which I like. I think that is a fantastic advantage of modern technology if you're doing those long manual jobs. Once they've come to do, to empty the bins, if you just left the bin lid open, it would aerify, wouldn't it? It's a technical term. Yes, I must try aerifying my food waste bin. Now, as Fi indicated, there are plenty of

geopolitics issues to be discussed. And actually, before the end of this season, we will have had the American presidential election, won't we? So we do live in a time of considerable excitement. I was watching and paying attention last week to the Democratic Convention in Chicago. And did you see or hear anything of Kamala Harris's speech? I did. I mean, I'd love to hear from our American listeners on this. I, if I'm honest, I was a bit more underwhelmed than I wanted to be. Oh.

Yes, I'm sorry. I'm kind of, in a way, I'm sorry to say that. I want to be more impressed by her than I am. Do you find... And I hate myself for saying that. I'm just trying to be honest. When you're watching her, do you see in her a desire not to displease, which is kind of holding her back? Because I think I see that.

That might be it because she can't risk putting people off by saying anything. Dare I say that there was a little bit of that going on in our election campaign where an awful lot of people felt that Keir Starmer wasn't really, you know, shooting from the hip. He was definitely making sure that nothing went wrong in his speeches rather than saying, bing, this is what we're actually going to do. This is what we're about. Well, he's made a very important speech today. Well, he's certainly going to tell us now isn't he he's told us now that things this is

if you're outside the uk he's told everybody in the uk to um belts basically um buckle up because things will get worse before they get better which is probably true and we've all been saying we want honesty and then when you get it you think oh shit this is a bit depressing. But I remember him saying that right at the beginning of the election campaign, maybe even before the election was announced, that there was no magic money tree and things would be very difficult and therefore it wasn't going to be a campaign of airy-fairy promises, which political parties aren't meant to do. You're not meant to put something in your manifesto

that hasn't actually been gone over with a fine tooth comb to make sure that you could deliver it. So we are in an odd position of wanting both. We want it both ways, don't we? We want to be promised the earth. Yeah. But then we don't want it to be unrealistic. So do you know what?

Susie Dent's on the programme, the podcast, in a couple of moments' time on this. And she might have a word for exactly that feeling of kind of being thrilled but disappointed at the same time. She is the... I think it's no exaggeration to say she's Britain's leading lexicographer. Would that be fair?

I think that would be very fair, yeah. And she's got a bestseller, her new book, isn't it? It's already a Sunday Times bestseller. We've got some brilliant writers this week, haven't we? And I don't know about you, on my holiday last week I read some brilliant brilliant books I really did we've got Robert Harris on the program tomorrow and you've read his latest oeuvre on your sun lounger I did it's called Precipice and it's about um it's about a prime minister who's a huge significance but who's almost entirely forgotten and I just think in a

way we're talking about politics there, it just makes you realise how quickly that happened. So he was Prime Minister to Asquith at the time the First World War broke out. Before I read that book, I couldn't have told you a thing about him, except that he had some vague link to Helena Bonham Carter. Oh. And that was the only thing I knew about him.

But he wouldn't have known that. He was yet to discover that some part of his family, and I confess I don't know which part, has led to, I think, one of Britain's leading thespians, Helena Bonham Carter. Yeah, and all-time style icons as well. Yeah, absolutely. So, well, let's not give the game away

about what's in Precipice, but you would highly highly recommend that well I would and I read and we've got her on Claire Chambers so I've just now that is brilliant made that book last all of last week because I didn't want to speed read it

I wanted to savour every moment and I had to be in a room on my own when I was reading that book so I could just dedicate myself to it if you liked Small Pleasures was her last one wasn't it on my own when I was reading that book so I could just dedicate myself to it. If you liked Small Pleasures was her last one wasn't it? Which we both really enjoyed. I think this is

even better. I loved it Jane. I thought it was better too. I loved it. It's called Shy Creatures and it's just superb. Absolutely superb. It's got a theme about the kind of development of psychiatry in it that was just fascinating as well also the um we don't want to give too much away about that one either but the

lead male the psychiatrist he's he's a pillar he's an absolute pillar um and oh lord i've just backed into some branding uh no it's such that's such a good and craig brown's book about the queen voyage around the queen yeah which i um i just picked up because i thought i want i'll just That's such a good book. And Craig Brown's book about the Queen. Voyage Around the Queen. Yeah, which I just picked up because I thought, I wonder, I'll just dip into this. And it's beautiful short chapters, and I haven't finished it because it's colossal. It's a whopper.

But that's fantastic too. Every now and again it makes me laugh out loud. It's so funny. Still to come, and we should definitely, definitely highly preview this, Anne Cleave's latest theatre novel called The Dark Wives. Now, Anne Cleave and Brenda Bletham are our guests at Cheltenham at the Literary Festival in October for a live edition of the show, if you're at Cheltenham, and it'll be live on the radio station as well

and then pop it in the podcast too, so that will be superb. And every time I open an ancle's book i think i will be forgiving of this book if it's not as brilliant as all of the other ones because i mean she's written what 50 books 40 50 books i mean she's astonishingly prolific uh but they never ever disappoint and and this one doesn't either well i'm looking forward to that apart from that we know there's really light books. Or reading, not much. We're not that bothered. Not much. But definitely, definitely the Clare Chambers. I think it's... If you read one book

this autumn. I'd say that. I would agree. Right, all of your lovely emails. Can I just do an absolute final call? The gate is closing. The gate is closing. Is this dogs eating vegetables no it's school uniforms okay uh just because people are still writing in to say um don't uh don't get rid

of school uniforms uh because choosing your own clothes every day is a nightmare so that's never never never uh what we were talking about it is changing the school uniform just away from the very formal blazer and shirts and stiff trousers or very short skirts for girls. That's where the conversation started. It's really not about taking school uniform away completely. And thank you for all of your incredibly thoughtful emails about it. They've gone into a special folder

and we will try and do something really positive and interesting with those over the next couple of months or so so thank you for those but i think probably we've moved off the topic well we have but i just to echo what you were saying we you're absolutely right it wasn't to abolish school uniform because i absolutely get that yeah i totally get the the pandemonium that can break out when someone has to select something that they regard as it's basically to take away the perv element yeah that's it was we're trying to perv per perv, make school uniform perv-free. Yes.

So, in other words, track suit bottoms and a hoodie with the school crest on for everyone. That was the idea, wasn't it? That was the idea. Just don't send kids to school, you know, in outfits where everyone can see their pants. Just stop doing that. Did you see Sherwood?

I did, Jane. I think I'm still in recovery. I was going to say, I mean, it reminded me because I was having a little clear out earlier with the assistance of our young colleague,

Evelyn, of one of my draws. And they were absolutely crammed with emails. They are all read, but we cannot read every one of them out. But this is an email

sent some time ago now, back in May, in fact, from Emma, who says... May of this year. Yes, it was this year, in fairness. She was listening to our discussion about sudden bursts of violence while driving home from a performance of Punch, a new play by James Graham,

who is the man behind Sherwood and Dear England, at the Nottingham Playhouse. It was about that very theme. It's the true life story of Jacob Dunn, a young man from the Meadows estate in Nottingham, who killed another young man, James Hodgkinson, with a single punch, and how a restorative justice programme transformed his life after prison and also that of James's grieving parents.

So that play sounds very, very interesting. I wonder whether it has ever transferred to the West End. I confess I don't know. Perhaps it did, but Emma, thank you for that. It just made me think again about Sherwood last night. They're not giving all the episodes, so there's only two available at the moment. Well, I think that's wise.

I mean, it's like a very, very, very strong piece of medication. I think you should only have one a week. I thought last night... Was it too much at times? Do you know what? Jade, it was just too much for the end of a bank holiday weekend. It really was, actually. It really, really was.

And there were also times where I thought it tipped over slightly into being faintly ridiculous. You know, I'm not... The malevolence of some of the leading characters was a bit implausible at times. Plus also, one of my big bain-noirs, clearly freshly pressed clothing just put on at the last minute for shots.

So you know the guy who always wore the flat cap, who was married to Monica Dolan, who's such a good actress and absolutely terrifying in this, truly terrifying, brilliant actress. She's her husband in this, can't remember the actor's name, forgive me. And he's got a flat

cap on but he was wearing absolutely pristine box fresh clothing and for some reason that really annoyed me oh okay i mean it shouldn't it shouldn't annoy me but it did that just annoyed me anyway i i'm kind of with you i thought there was too much going on too much of it was really nasty and i just are people that horrible in real life? That's my question. Well, I guess, yes, some people are. Some people are. Yes, undoubtedly some people are.

I think what I've, what I slightly, I wanted there to just be a couple more characters who you felt might be safe. Because actually everybody, every which way you turned, everyone was very unsafe. And by the end of it, it was just really jittery. And we did say, maybe we'll wait until, you know,

the kind of dark corners of the autumn and winter to watch that. In the beautiful, fading Indian summer that we're now having, I just felt a little bit perturbed by it. But if you're watching it yourselves and you want to join in the conversation, then please do. I think much of middle Britain will have gone to bed perturbed. I certainly will. In fact, it says something that tonight,

just by way of a more leisurely evening, I'm going to watch that programme about the Saudi Arabian Grand Prince. Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. It's a little perturbing too. Yeah, but it'll be less worrying than show. Okay. Anyway. Something that I'd like you to note

and we can talk about in tomorrow's programme is when they do the family tree of MBS, his grandfather had 45 sons. Good Lord. 45 sons. I mean, man, must have been a little bit tired i was going to say it must have been christmas expensive wouldn't really be an issue would it of its many many wives but also they do the family tree with the 45 sons and at which point you know you have to put your

jaw up off the floor but they just don't even bother mentioning how many daughters. I mean, it's just irrelevant. And that says so much about what is then discussed sometimes in the documentary. Not enough, actually, I did feel by the end of it. I just wanted to know more about his personal life and about the women in his family. But it's brilliant. It's only a two-parter, that documentary.

It's absolutely fantastic. You will enjoy watching it very much, but it's mind-boggling. And the machismo involved is mind-boggling. And you really notice, Jane, of course, there are no talking heads who are women at all in the whole... I'm probably going to be very angry. I think you might be.

Maybe it isn't more relaxing than Sherwood. No, I don't think it is. OK. Right. Anyway, I had a lovely week on holiday last week. It all seems like a long time ago. I think perhaps I'll give Feta a break. Now, are you happy to relay your information about riding around on a golf buggy?

As I told Fiona... Because I've now got an image of you and Donald Trump. That's a little bit hard to separate. That's what my sister said. Where did you go on holiday? Trump Town. it was a bit of a last minute booking and as when you do things last minute i mean my kids can never tell me when they're going to be available so it's all i can never book at a sensible time so what was available was this hotel which was lovely i should say um it took minimalism a little too far in some ways i mean the rooms were sort of sparsely

tastefully furnished to the degree that they were barely furnished at all. Do you know what I mean? Yes. It was all sort of breeze block with a bit of cushioning chucked on top. So I found it a little brisk, if I'm honest. I could have done with a few more fripperies.

But you did get some of those very nice Greek biscuits upon arrival. But it was so huge, the only way to travel the hotel, which is actually more of a mini village, was in a golf cart. You'd have to queue up at reception for a buggy to take you back to your accommodation, which began to be slightly ridiculous. In fact, I walked out of my house yesterday. Where's the buggy? Yeah, excuse me. I need to out of my house yesterday. Where's the buggy?

Yeah, excuse me. Come on. It goes a little. Where's the golf buggy? I waited in vain. Just drive me mad. But it was. It was by the end of the week,

I felt extraordinarily institutionalised. Yes. I'd sort of had enough then if I'm really honest. Also, I will say, and I'm sure other people, it was Crete I went to. It was beautiful. I love Greece. But it was very, very went to it was beautiful i love greece um but it was

very very close to spin along the island where um victoria hislop um focused her book the island was about about the leprosy the leper colony yeah and um i mean i was literally my sunbed was opposite spin along and i found it i didn't go and visit it I know you can you can get a boat trip to go and visit I was slightly I know this is sounding melodramatic here a bit haunted by it and I'd be really interested to hear from people who've been who actually went on that boat trip and went around it because the hotel offered which I thought was a bit tasteless. A selfie spot where you could pose with Spinalonga in the background. And I just wondered whether that was a bit, you know, here I am on holiday with the island,

once used as a colony for people with leprosy, just behind me there as the sun sets. I don't know. Am I just being a bit, unusually for me, a bit sensitive? Well, I guess it's the same as going around Alcatraz and all of those tourist sites. But also, is it a bad thing that there was a leper colony? I mean, is there an argument that actually it was a sensible way of dealing with an illness and a disease that was incurable at the time?

Should we automatically think that it was the banishment of people, is there anything good about it, and I'm genuinely asking that question, I'm not suggesting that I know. I did look it up inevitably and watched Victoria Hislop talking about Spinnelongo a lot

and it had closed in 1957 so not that long ago. Not that far into history. And I have read The Island, which is a great book, but it was some time ago and I confess I can't remember. And there was a Greek TV series made of it, but I don't think it was ever available in this country.

So, yeah, I would like to know exactly the answers to your questions. I genuinely don't know. And also in this country, what did we have at one point equivalence? We certainly wouldn't have had anything of that nature in the 1940s and 50s in Britain. No. But why didn't we? Had we just eradicated leprosy?

These are questions that we, well, obviously cannot answer. Out of my depth. A leprosy special comes your way. This one comes from Lorraine, who says, last year we discovered a secluded lake in the Cotswolds, and this is relevant to your furnishing of hotel rooms. Oh, I love this. Where an award-winning architect has built a handful of discreet

odd lodges where two people can stay. Made of black metal, cautioned steel and glass, the views over the lake are spectacular. The inside is open plan everywhere, and I mean everywhere, including the en suite bathroom upstairs on the mezzanine. This means that you can lie back

in the luxurious double bed and either gaze across the water or chat to your partner as they sit on the loo and undertake the evacuations of the night. Lorraine says, we've been married for several decades. it took us a good 10 years before either broke wind in the company of the other we spent the holiday alternately dashing out onto the

decking or taking a solo walk down to the lake's edge out of a sense of propriety astonishingly we noticed many entries in the visitor's book referring to the romance of the lodge one young man proposed there and had been accepted. It got us wondering, is this an age thing? Are the younger generation so touchy about the use of pronouns, completely laid back about the bodily functions of their partners? I would love to hear other listeners'

opinions. And then the PS, I came across another house when browsing Airbnb. It was much more traditional, but the master bedroom was L-shaped and round the corner with no wall or door at all, bathroom and loo. Is this becoming a thing? Oh, I really hope not. Well, I think it is becoming a thing. Oh my God. Because recently, we have stayed in exactly that kind of, not hotel or lodge or whatever, but room that just has a kind of partition but an open toilet facility. I think it's well-being, bloody, well, with scrubs present.

I don't think there is ever... I'm just going to say it, Jane, I don't think there is ever a time when a plop is romantic. Well, that's probably the title of the podcast. Thank you for that, Fiona. I knew there was a reason why I was looking forward to coming to work again today veronica has a more should we say um upmarket kind of a oh thank god for you

thank you yes veronica thank you i can't thank you enough frankly uh southwark cathedral there we are it started well southwark cathedral are displaying threads through creation sounds interesting beautiful enormous textile artworks featuring the biblical creation story by Jackie Parkinson. When I came to the park with Adam and Eve, I was expecting some gaslighting of Eve because she usually gets the blame. But in this version, the fault for eating the forbidden fruit was shouldered by both of them. And it made me think, what would I have done in that situation? The instructions were eat anything except the fruit from the tree of knowledge. A younger version of myself would have

complied however with free will and age I believe I would have sampled the forbidden fruit. Is the world divided between those with natural obedience and those who take a risk to seek knowledge do we all seek knowledge in fact isn't that the very purpose of education jane and fee would you as journalists have sampled the fruit veronica says she's going to see us at the cheltenham literature festival well i tell you what that has definitely raised the tone and thank goodness that for that. That's why I read it out. Well done. That's beautiful. You see, I'm interested in that. What? I don't think I would have eaten the fruit.

Well, if you had eaten the fruit, you would have done it quite loudly. That's possible. That's if the fruit was a pink lady. But then find me the person who can eat a pink lady quietly. Eve. I've got one for today. Eve eats... She doesn't eat her apples so quietly. I've complimented Eve

on how quietly she eats her apples. Isn't that weird? You call Eve as well? Yeah. Spooky. Do you like apples? Oh, spooky. We've got a lovely email here

actually saying... Would you have eaten the forbidden fruit uh yes yeah you said that's the difference right let's move on thank you though to veronica who's rescued us from potentially a disastrous podcasting situation uh dr claire uh says uh jane i always like and dislike the same books as you and the main part of the email goes I'd like to recommend The Trouble with Goats and Sheep by Joanna Cannon Do you know what, that is out there in the lead at the moment A lot of people have said that It's a book about how a neighbourhood judges others

people who don't fit the norm and spirituality It was written by a mental health specialist I didn't know that and is littered with wonderfully nostalgic references to life in the 1970s god i'd love it if we chose that i think it's an utterly brilliant book but dr claire also goes on to say loving the podcast and please can eve sit in next time heaven forbid jane or fee are off poorly without the other jane to stand in eve has an amazing voice for podcasting and we want to hear more from her would you consider that no she says no

are you just production just production she's just production she only wants to be production knows her place no i think you should because your top tips with the laundry and uh your lovely voice was the other one voiceovers there was another one wasn't there there were two tips that i was showers what oh cold showers that was absolutely fabulous cold showers when it's hot it's revolutionized my life um this one uh comes from carol and it's about uh the and we've had quite a few of these actually these are so lovely the mum in the box stuff uh jane's daughter demanding paracetamol in the early hours and your previous listener packing a comprehensive uni survival kit for her offspring reminded me of preparing my own version what I named a mum in a box as my daughter headed off to uni your listener had an impressive list of the must-haves but I

also included things that might be both useful and very tricky to buy or find at short notice such as a mini sewing kit pinch from a hotel bathroom, a packet of condoms and an emergency £20 note, as well as a letter explaining how much we loved her and that everything would turn out fine. The same daughter did indeed turn out fine and rewarded me by introducing me to your show and buying us tickets to one of your very early live shows. Well, she certainly did, didn't she, gal? Wow, she's delivered. She listens whilst living in Bondi Beach these days and checks up on me, berating me for not keeping up.

I love that too, as well. Yes, the daughter berating the mum. If I fall more than a few days behind in terms of listening, I feel the mum-daughter tables gently turning. I may soon have my own box of important items. We'd love more of those. And I think the mum-in box thing is so, I mean, imagine opening that when you're away at university and you get your basics, but you also get a

lovely letter saying, you know, go forth, it's all going to be great. And that's a letter you could show other people as well. If they're having a tough time with you, you could just say, here's my letter of recommendation from my mother. I'm really very nice indeed uh any more of those thoughts would be absolutely lovely my mum says i'm fabulous it must be true we better move on to susie at the moment but let's just briefly bring in robin who is uh somewhat uh tardy in her listening uh she's in january of 2023 at moment. Robin, such a lot has happened. Honestly, you won't believe it. She says... God, I tell you what, you could absolutely concertina down the six-week election campaign into about six days. Yeah. During this period, we apparently

made several references to Prince Harold and his new book. Gosh, that really does seem like ancient history. It does, yeah. And I just wondered, she says, if you know that Prince Harry does have an actual unabbreviated name and it's not Harold, it's Henry. That's told us, hasn't it? Yeah. I think we did know that.

We were probably attempting to be faintly comedic by calling him Harold. I mean, it's not particularly funny and it's probably me that did it, so I'm sorry about that. But I wonder whether there are very many Harolds out there now. I suspect it's a little bit of a... It's a little bit like Keith. Actually, wasn't it the year before last? There were no Ians in the UK. There were no christenings or birth certificates with Ian on.

Oh, that does really date me. Yeah, doesn't it? Because there are just loads of Ians in our generation. Oh, God, I had my first kiss from an Ian. Really? With two eyes or one eye? Bring in Susie Dent. Susie Dent is a woman of words, lexicographer and etymologist, and author of almost 20 books about the origins of words

and their impact throughout time and since 1992 she's also been the host of Dictionary Corner on Countdown and now she is a novelist. Her first born fiction book is already a hit. Guilty by Definition takes the reader on a thrill of a ride. How can a series of letters being sent to the offices of the Clarendon English Dictionary be related to the disappearance of the heroine Martha's sister a whole decade before? Well Susie came in to talk about the book and by way of small talk we started by discussing how we both found it quite hard after a long bank holiday weekend to actually do chat on a Tuesday and it turns out it's not just us. That just reminds me of a story that Giles Brandwith told me,

which is he got, Giles Brandwith's met absolutely everybody and he got in a lift and Michael Jackson stepped in and Giles said, good morning, nice to meet you, whatever. And he said absolutely nothing. And as he got out with his bodyguard, Giles said to the bodyguard, so I hope I didn't offend him. And he said, no, Michael Jackson never talks on a Friday. So I think you're in good company. That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Now, Susie Dent is a very, yes, I would imagine being

friends with Giles Brandreth is just the gift that keeps on giving. You are also a wonderful person, Susie, and we are here to talk about many, many things. The first thing on the agenda is your novel, Guilty by Definition. And I wonder, for people who haven't read it yet, because it's already soared up the bestseller charts, hasn't it? Congratulations on that. Do you want to just tell a little bit about Martha? Who is Martha and what is she trying to do? Yes. Well, the best piece of advice I had from writer friends was write about what you know.

So unsurprisingly, Martha is a lexicographer. She works for the Clarendon English Dictionary with a lovely team of people who are all very different in some ways, but also they are, you know, united by this love of language. And a series of strange letters starts to arrive at the dictionary, which are quite clunky, but also clearly have some kind of linguistic puzzle in them. And she and the team have to try and solve them. But what becomes clear very early on is that they involve her sister, who went missing 10 years before.

So as you've mentioned, it is always best for a writer to be writing about what they know. But also there's quite a fine balance, isn't there, Susie, between writing about what you know, but not writing the book that readers already think they know. So you must have thought that through when you started writing. Yes. I mean, one of the hardest challenges, well, the toughest challenges, because I've written almost 20 nonfiction books now,

and I don't think I was ever under the illusion that to move to fiction would be straightforward, but it was even more challenging than I thought. And particularly in this genre, just trying to keep all the threads together that a move to fiction would be straightforward, but it was even more challenging than I thought. And particularly in this genre, just trying to keep all the threads together, make sure that they are firmly tied up at the end, tightly tied up at the end, was really tricky. I was just worried that things would be a little frayed around the edges.

And you're right, yes. I think you have to both meet the reader's expectations, but also subvert them a little bit. And I hope I put a bit of a twist in towards the end. But it is a fascinating world as well, because we might think that we know about what happens in the world of dictionaries, because we all know dictionaries. But actually, I realised that I'd never given it too much thought. dictionaries but actually I realised that I'd never given it too much thought. No and I just I do get and the dictionary gets if you sometimes the dictionary is a sort of living thing and lots and lots of letters from people saying how can I get this word in the dictionary or why isn't my word there as if the dictionary is the kind of official referee of all language in fact we don't have an official referee and dictionaries just describe, yeah, they're just democratic. And if a word is used often enough, it will go in. But I did want to lift the lid a little bit on what makes dictionaries tick,

what makes the people, you know, the motivations and sometimes the secrets of the people who are writing them. And I suppose I've always been aware as well of the kind of darker underbelly of language you know some of our most ordinary everyday words have some kind of dark history to them often so the word thrill for example used to mean to pierce someone with a sword and eventually we were pierced thankfully with excitement rather than with a real weapon but there are lots and lots of stories like that and the same for actually, because it's set in Oxford, which is the city I live in and I love. But again, people tend to think of it as being very, you know, the sort of the dreaming spires, et cetera.

But it's a big, big city and there are darker corners of that too. So I wanted to explore both of those. Obviously, people will want to make a connection between you and your heroine, Martha. But I was very interested in what you said about the fact that Martha is less of a worrier than you are. So you wouldn't be able to make that direct comparison. And I wondered, what are you worried about at the moment? I worry all the time about everything. So I worry about how this will be received. So I worry about how this will be received. I worry about the next one that I am hoping to write.

But, you know, that's just I honestly I it's ridiculous. And you're right. It was a very conscious decision because Martha was getting very, very much like me, only with a sort of slightly glossy edge to her. And one of the best things my editor said to me is, everyone is flawed. You can't make everyone nice. So I had to go around and sort of make people a bit more scuffed. You originally turned down the part that many people know you best for, which is in Dictionary Corner on Countdown. And I was intrigued to read, Susie, that actually you weren't allowed to turn it down because the Oxford University press who you were working for said it was just all part of your contract but I mean that's an enormous thing not to have noticed in your contract. Oh actually it wasn't part of my

contract to be fair um it was just uh the real persuasiveness of my boss's boss who um on the fourth time of asking just said look this is going to be good for your job which reading between the lines meant it's something we expect you to do so it wasn't it wasn't actually in the small print right um but i was aware of countdown i just didn't tell you just was not on my radar at all and i was really happy as martha is just you know buried in dictionaries and in my own world and I didn't really want to lift my head above the parapet and to be honest not much has changed since except I do love my job it is honestly the best gig in the world I still find exciting it exciting I still

feel the adrenaline of the clock clicking down and I get to meet different people you know sitting next to me in the corner so I have the best seat in the house as well do you ever worry about what you're going to watch when you get old if you're actually on countdown not able to watch it I mean I'm looking forward to being able to watch every edition of countdown it's one of you know it's one of the pleasurable aspects of the retirement that is still quite a long way away from me but hopefully yes me too I think but um no I do you know what I never see I never watch anything that I've done I never watch it back I never listen to anything I've done are you the same I just I can't bear to first of all it's a bit like a busman's holiday because I've been there already and secondly just the angst that that would cause is um it's just not worth it yeah

no I'm exactly the same yep and can we talk about words and where words are going? What happens to a word like peng, something that is chucked around by the teens, then becomes a more established part of language and might end up in a dictionary? Who might decide that that is officially a word? How does that kind of whole conveyor belt of words work? Yes, well, that's a really good example, actually, because words of

approval and disapproval and words for cool are ten a penny all the time. I mean, they're just cropping up all the time. It seems to be, slang itself is the fastest moving area of language, and terms of approval and disapproval seem to be the itself is the fastest moving area of language and terms of approval and disapproval seem to be the fastest ones within that category um and who decides essentially is us we we decide um as i say language is a democracy we don't have an academy academy or some kind of linguistic government um and lexicographers essentially study these vast databases of language. I mean, billions of words of current language. It could be taken from scholarly journals, novels, tabloids, transcripts of conversations on the street, text conversations.

We gather as much evidence as we can. And I use the word evidence because I think there is a real parallel between crime detectives and word detectives, really. And then we, you know, we say, OK, this is used sufficiently for it to go in the dictionary. And particularly with slang, which is so alien to a lot of us and we need it to be decoded. It's actually useful to have it in a dictionary. But they do often disappear. And with virtual dictionaries now, it's easier for, you know, to put a word in and not worry about space. But with the printed dictionary, it was it was a lot tougher. But the latest term of approval, I'm told is skibbity. You heard of that one? Skibbity? No. Skibbity. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's, I think it's a term for approval. It's probably flipped, it's like

doesn't, it's probably the opposite now. But, but honestly. But honestly, they're coming in all the time. And it's a fascinating watch. I would recommend the gig of lexicography to anyone, I have to say. And what does AI and things like ChatGPT do to how extensive our vocabulary is? Because it could work both ways, couldn't it? ChatGPT is a kind of basking shark isn't it it's pulling in everything that's already been said and churning it back out so you can see how that might mean that it captures lots of words but then would it still be open to the actual creation of a new one in what it's spewing out?

I think it probably would be quite good at creating new ones. I mean, I don't know if you've seen on social media people asking for a kind of race, you know, asking for a sort of terrible series of insults from AI, which is personalised towards them. And actually, it does a pretty good job. But when it comes to at the moment, when it comes to scrutinizing language, if I was to say, as I have done to chat GPT, you know, give me 10 insults from the 17th century. It might give me one, but the rest of them are much, much more recent, some of them from the 21st century. In fact, if you ask, also, I was playing a game with my daughter the other night. We had to think of 10 bugs or something beginning with the letter N. We couldn't really think of any. So we put that into AI. And what came back was, I think, 10 or 15 words, which all began with

different letters, not one of them began with the letter N. So it's really imperfect. And I often find myself feeling like I need to correct it, i.e. teaching it to kind of replace me. But I think it's got a long way to go. What I hope, though, with lexicography in the future is that it will really speed up the study of existing language and assist lexicographers rather than replace them, because I think ultimately and certainly at the moment you need someone to mediate it you need somebody to to sort of study the results and then take decisions um from that because language is so subjective um you know we are all individual and so i think you will need a human brain to um to assess it i hope that's the

case anyway but are you excited by it or or as someone who loves words and and i've always thought as well what i love about the words that you tell us about is that uh they are from the far reaches of your knowledge or even sometimes you know beyond your knowledge but but that's what's exciting for you so do you look at AI and just think oh actually that's that's really going to take away people like me? It's a really difficult one at the moment I am reasonably excited by it because I mean we've always been scared of new technology in particular its impact on language you know we've been scared of the postcard in Victorian days they didn't like the idea of the postcard because people would have to just write very simply. We didn't like the telegram for the same reason.

When text messaging came about, we just thought SMS was going to be the end of everything. And likewise, with the internet, we thought it was just going to reduce us all to some kind of bland monolithic language. And the opposite is true. In fact, it's created huge variety. So I've learned not to be scared of new technology. I consider myself to be reasonably savvy when it comes to tech. But I worry that AI will sort of replicate human mistakes, if you see what I mean. It is reliant upon us ultimately. It's kind of pooling together stuff that we create.

And it might then replicate biases and that kind of thing rather than be this sort of objective, all knowing thing on its own. So that I suppose that is a fear in terms of where it's going in the future. But for now, I think it is probably quite exciting. to describe people exactly as yourself. People who are excited by the future, but recognise that their part in it might be a little bit diminished. Because we often, we fall back on Luddite, don't we? And actually, sometimes I think that is far too blunt a tool to try and describe what many of us are feeling,

which is just a kind of nervous uncertainty. Yes. Well, the word that I always use, and I overuse this one, but I'm determined to bring it back, is betwitterment. And betwitterment is an old dialect word, and it means both really excited, but also quite anxious at the same time. And there's also a brilliant word from, I think it's from Norwegian, excuse the pronunciation, it'sian and excuse the pronunciation it's gruglede and to gruglede is to dread something happily so you kind of you know when you sort of know you're going on holiday yeah and the whole thing seems just a bit i just don't know if i can cope with all the prep and then travel and all of that but you're also really looking forward to it

um so to dread something happily i think is where we're at at the moment The fantastic Susie Dent actually that's a terrible adjective to use for a lexicographer isn't it we've got to think of a better one it's not really good enough is it no the I don't think we can do her we can't do her justice

what would she say she would know words that what's wrong Eve you've got the giggles okay the extraordinary I just can't get to it now, Susie Dent, MBE, lexicographer and entomologist, and her novel is called Guilty by Definition.

So I really love Grugleda, and I'm sorry, Susie, I apologise for not being able to pronounce it right. I'm doubly apologising there. Because it's such a special feeling, isn't it? You are looking forward to something, but there's a sense of dread about it too. It's like, you know, you're pulling forwards and backwards at the same time. I think that is cracking.

And that is how I view the digital world, Jane. Yes. I know it offers all of the opportunities, but at the same time, I'm scared of enjoying it. It's weird, isn't it? Do you think the next generation will be different? Well, I don't know. I did have a lovely holiday,

but one of the things that has seriously begun to depress me now is the addiction to phones, which you do see, for some reason, it really gets to you on holiday. My own addiction, I should say. I'm not excusing myself here. But everywhere you looked, we were in paradise. And, yeah, everyone,, we were in paradise. Yeah, up against your face.

Just looking at their phone. And it's kids and it's families and it's at mealtimes and it's, this is not, it's not good. It's just not, it's really not good. And so do you manage to put yours down? Do you actually manage to leave it in your hotel room for the day? I'd love to say I did, but I didn't, no. No, I didn't. I mean, I did do a lot of book reading

and that's one of the reasons, actually, I don't want a Kindle, seriously, because I'd rather... I don't know, there's something about that that then leads me back to that digital world. But, yeah, it's just... I mean, the idea... So many people on their lounges

in a truly beautiful place. Yeah, looking at other people's experience, that's what does my head in. Yeah, it's beginning to do mine in. For the kiddies, and I mean, they're not kiddies anymore, I just think to not know the absolute beauty of being on your own with only one view is they are missing out on so much.

Because the temptation to photograph it, to send it to somebody else, diminishes it. And for it to be interrupted by your desire to keep it going forever, that's really weird. And then to look at your phone and see that somebody else is in a nicer place means it's pointless to have gone there. All of it, Jane, all of it.

I hate it. I'm with you. I absolutely hate it. I don't know how we go about changing it, though. You're right, I should just have gone out and left the phone in the room. Oh, I find that so hard to do. I didn't do it. I feel like a little bit of me is missing. That's the truth. Well, if you want to join us in this, what has become a rather...

We've turned into the podcast equivalent of Sherwood. We'll be cheerier tomorrow. Let's hope we're spared for tomorrow's edition. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.