Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I find a primary school loo VERY comfortable (with David Hepworth)

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Autumn is here and Shackleton is back! In today's episode, Jane reveals that she has always had time for George Clooney whilst Fi ponders whether there is a chill wind coming towards Taylor Swift. They are also joined by David Hepworth, music journalist, about his new book 'Hope I Get Old Before I Die'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Did I go when I was four? I think I went when I was five. I'll find out. Well, the nation awaits. I mean, it's a gripper, isn't it? What a saga. Let's find out. Hi, I'm Adam Vaughan, Environment Editor for The Times. At the 2024 Times Earth Summit, our discussion on the essential steps for a net zero transition will be set against a backdrop of the biggest election year in history.

The governments voted in this year will face a crucial period for the sustainability agenda. This transition will be theirs to accelerate, and all our futures will be affected by whether or not they do so. To book your ticket to this year's summit, head to timesurfssummit.com forward slash virtual. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hello, I'm Jess Milton and I'm delighted to welcome you back

to season four of Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe, launching Friday, September 6th. Every week this fall, we'll have some gems for you from Stuart McLean and the Vinyl Cafe. They'll be Dave and Morley stories, plus Stuart's essays, postcards from Canada, and more from the Story Exchange. Subscribe for free wherever you get your podcasts.

ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. So we were just having a little chat off air, off air, about our shared delight with Hannah, our producer today as well, in the month of September. It represents a return to a timetable, which I think we all like, a return to the possibility of jumpers, which we like. And I changed my summer duvet this weekend. Oh, no, I'm keeping the thin one on. Are you? Oh, gosh, no, I had to go. We call it Shackleton, the summer duvet this weekend. Oh, no, I'm keeping the thin one on. Are you?

Oh, gosh, no, I had to go. We call it Shackleton, the winter duvet. It's back on, is it? Oh my God. Shackleton's back. The polar adventurer who met his sticky end. And I do go to the same hairdresser as his granddaughter. That's very good to know.

I think there's definitely an adventurer in between, lightweight adventurer and Shackleton in terms of tog rating that is possibly more appealing. But I don't know, are you allowed to have more than two duvets? I think that's terribly extravagant to have a mid one. I've just got a summer and a winter. Yeah, I think to have three duvets, yeah, I mean that's just well showing off in it. It's an oligarch kind of linen cupboard. Absolutely no don't go there. We are talking, it just made me realise that we are talking to an explorer later in the week. Who's called? Kenton Call. Unbelievable.

Which is a great name for anyone and a really good name for an explorer. He's a mountaineer. He's been up Everest, he's been up Everest about as often as I've been to Lidl, so quite a lot. Do you think that it is nominative determinism that he just couldn't possibly have ended up, I don't know, just working part-time in a coffee shop? No, find me a podiatrist who's called Kenton Cool. But that's not to in any way be rude about podiatry. That's a challenge.

Because it's important. But yes, I agree. I think it might be one of those names that was yearning for adventure right from the start. But also, you know, we've talked before about what it must be that your family originally did for you to get your name. So what were the calls? Well actually it was... They're just slightly chilly people. If I was going to bring... Am I going to elevate the conversation or bring it down? It was a name changed from a German name by somebody who felt that having a German surname probably wasn't very helpful. Okay, so it was Kuhle

or something. Yes, it was K-U-H-L-E at one point, no it's not. C-O-O-L. But you've got to say, it's not a bad option is it? It's not. David Hepworth's our guest on this episode of the podcast. I think he writes about music absolutely brilliantly. He knows the scene. He's been in it since the year dot and his book is about aging rock stars. And it did make me think, and I, you know, we shouldn't look for gender disparity in every single topic we talk about because it demeans the really important areas that do have disparity in them but actually it's a whole book

about men and Madonna features but you know she's not as old as the many he features otherwise it is predominantly the old men of rock not the old women of rock. Tell everybody who they've got to look forward to hearing about. Well so it's a very thoughtful book about the different motivations for why all of these old geezers are still doing very well and of course so much of it is circumstances beyond their control. It's other people who make their money out of them who've encouraged them and enabled them to carry on doing it. So it is, I mean it's everybody, it's all of Pink Floyd. I love the chapters about Pink Floyd because

they, I mean David Hepworth just really knows all of his stuff and all of the back-channeling and the appalling stuff that's gone on in bands. Between the members of the band. Yes, right. So you've got Pink Floyd, you've got Bruce Springsteen, you've obviously got the Rolling Stones discussions about Bob Dylan, about Van Morrison, about David Bowie, about all of them.

It's really interesting. He's a good bloke. Does Bruce come across well? He does. So he makes the point that one of the reasons why you want to go and see Bruce Springsteen is because you want to believe in the enduring nature of relationships on stage when they work well.

And I think there's something of that in the Oasis reunion, that actually we want to believe that they're just like any family, where you can have a rock that lasts 10 years, but actually, you know, blood is thicker than water and eventually you want to get back together. And I think there is something of that in the E Street band because they haven't had spectacular fallouts, have they? They seem to get on. Clarence Clemens was the saxophonist. I don't think he's around anymore. No, he's gone.

Yeah, he was a great musician and a great friend of Bruce's I gather. But I mean I'm a gog because I'm a big fan of David Hepworth too so I'm looking forward to that. Yeah so that's to look forward to after we've done some of your emails and thank you very much indeed for that. Sarah who says I've bought my ticket for your event on the 10th of October in Cheltenham this morning. Would you like to be Mandy on message and fill people in on what this is Jane? Yes it's at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. I'm very much looking forward to it and we are interviewing to our genuine delight Anne Cleves and Brenda Blethan. It's a whopper of a duo.

It's not even a double whammy, it's a quadruple really or even more than that. So Brenda, in case you didn't know and you do know, plays Inspector Vera Stanhope in Anne Cleves' Vera TV series. Well actually some of the stories that are televised are not by Anne Cleves, are they? But anyway, it's all very complicated. But there is a new Anne Cleves' Vera book out as well. Have you read that yet? No, I've got it by my bed because I just want to... it's a treat that's lying in store for me, I think. I think I'll read it in October.

It's a good one. lying in store for me, I think. I think I'll read it in October. It's a good one. As the nights lengthen. Yeah, you should actually, because it's very much set in the autumny, wintery things. Yeah. Sarah goes on to say, you'll be glad to know virtually all of the main front seats have been sold. I've had to sit further back in the raised bit, but you'll be on the big screens too, so we can see at the back. Looking forward to it. Sadly, I can't get anyone to join me, but the Literature Festival is a place where you can go on

your own and feel fine about it. Your neighbour chats to you as happened last year when I saw you, we had a lovely chat about you too. And then there's an emoji, can't quite work out, is that a good emoji? Was it a good chat? Oh dear. Just back from the physio says Sarah for treatment on my neck. She manipulated it and said the muscles were very tight, of course I had acupuncture too, which I've had before and usually helps but not today. I feel worse than ever at the moment but I'm going back next week for a repeat. In the meantime I'd better do my exercises." And Sarah ponders this, I wonder if acupuncture works on belly fat. I do get those ads

claiming to melt it fast but on Facebook and not on the other platforms it does make you feel like you're being watched need a lie down to rest the neck at love home you talk about everything as I nod off to sleep I bumped into a very lovely lady Jane who runs the local independent bookshop in the London Fields area also using us as a helpful sleep aid. Sleep well everybody you may have already nodded off by the time we get to this bit of the... But let's just say goodnight in a row. Do you know what I really love? It's when people say that to you in person or on the email. It's hard not to feel... I don't ever feel insulted at all. I just find it funny that people are so thrilled to tell me that we're so dull, we just want people to sleep.

Yeah. Do you think they say that to Alistair and Rory? I bet they don't. I don't know, Jay. Anonymous says, I'm sure I won't be the only one to write in on the subject of clerical clothing, following your discussion of Vatican tailoring. Now, actually, I'm not religious, but I'm wondering whether I should perhaps join the church. I'm always looking for a position of seniority and maybe I could go a little bit further in the church than I've been able to do in disc jockeying. At the theological college I attended, one of the more manufacturers of cassocks, clerical shirts and other ecclesiastical accoutrements were invited to bring a stall.

There was a dazzling array on offer, particularly in options for women in the ministry who might not like to wear a button-down shirt. The clerical crop top for wearing under dresses was a very niche revolution. I mean, who knew? Personally, I decided after not very long that ministry wasn't for me, and I had to address a new problem, how to get rid of the clerical clothing I was no longer entitled to wear. I hope there's a woman minister out there somewhere

still getting benefit from my cast-off cassock. So, I didn't know, but I should have guessed I guess, that if you are at an ecclesiastical college there must come a time when you can pick the style of stuff that you want to wear. Here's another contributor who says, I'm writing about the experience of having been a vicar's wife, now ex-wife, in Liverpool when a fun day out for my husband used to be a trip to Aintree to a shop they used to have there called Hayes and Finch. He could spend hours wandering the aisles looking at the latest range of altar candles, measuring up for new gold embroidered chassoubel or selecting a bigger bobble for his barretetta. I just remember having to avoid the

statue area as there is a particularly big one of Saint Sebastian with a load of arrows sticking into him. Luckily my husband didn't buy it as I kept thinking it would be a nightmare to dust. I already had to deal with communion wafers being kept in the airing cupboard so they didn't go soggy. That is from a listener who will keep her anonymous but thank you for that. So you were married to this man, I mean it sounds like he was either, he was an Anglican minister but it must have been very high church Anglican if he's wearing that sort of thing and looking at statues of Saint Sebastian. But I'm out of my depth here. Do you know what, there have just been a couple of pointers during your most recent monologues that suggest that you shouldn't enter the German chain. I'm just saying, I think not

believing might be the key one there. Yes, but anything could happen. A miracle could occur in the night. You might get the calling, you may well. Actually, just very briefly, Sam says when she lived in Italy we'd visit Rome and I was obsessed with shops that sold religious attire. My husband thought I was weird. Anyway I took these photos to show people back home. I thought I'd share them with you. I do have a vague memory of going in once and seeing a rose, rose of nuns cardigans hanging up but I can't remember if this was real or

just imagined. Thank you very much Sam. The pictures are amazing of beautiful gold robes and all sorts of hats and gold jewelry and cups and capulets and all the rest of it. But Nuns cardigans, I mean, it's just a cardigan, isn't it? Obviously not. I suppose not. Nuns had special cardigan, perhaps they still do. Do you think that it would just help if they dispensed with some of the more theatrical elements of the uniform, or do you think it helps?

I think it probably helps to recruit a certain brand of... No, that's kind of what I mean. Well, yeah, I don't know. Anyway, one thing's for sure, we may be at the Cheltenham Literary Festival, but we're not going to be hosting Songs and Praise anytime soon. We're not, are we? No. Although I think we could give it a really thorough going over

with a stiff brush and proper rebrand. Well, I think we probably just need to apply the same rules that we've been applying to our discussions about school uniform. You just get, you know, just get a nice little badge and sewed onto a sweatshirt and off you go. You can believe in whoever you want. Wendy Stretch has the best name in the world. She does. Well done, Wendy. You just do, Wendy. You just do. After listening to you recently talk about summer-born children having to start school sometimes when they're still only toddlers just aged four. I wanted to let your listeners know that if they are the parent of a summer-born child they do have an option to decelerate their child starting school to the

following school year. This option became available a few years ago but I don't think many parents are aware of it. Wendy says I work for my local authority as part of the inclusion team and support additional needs early years children and their families. And this option is often taken up by my families as an extra year in preschool can help to develop the essential social and language skills required for effective learning. Parents can look on the gov.uk website and find all the information they need to apply for deceleration. It is recognised that summer-born children sometimes never catch up within their peer group so the option became available to close the gap for these children. Legally children in the UK do not have to start school until the term

after they are five. Do you remember the rising five panic? So for a child who's only just turned four this could give them an extra year of play-based learning in an earlier setting rather than going to school before they're ready. I will say some, some are born four year olds could manage perfectly well, but some just can't. But do please let parents know that they have a choice on this. So that is fantastic. And do you know what, Wendy, we just love an email from people who really know what

they're talking about and how fantastic that they've made that change. It is, yeah. That wasn't available 14 years ago. I'm just trying to do my maths. 13 years ago. Well, no, I think that's the point. That's what Wendy's saying. That a lot of people don't know that you have a choice in this now. And I suppose if it only came in a couple of years ago, it might take a while for it to filter down. But that's superb and because as so many

emailers have said sometimes it works out sometimes it really doesn't but it is just a weird thing to have such a firm line in the sand that hasn't allowed parents and teachers to have much room kind of for maneuver. So that's not the case anymore. And gov.uk will take you to the right kind of info. Wendy does say as a cheeky aside, I carry copious fun resources around with me to support children's learning. You know where this is going.

Oh dear. And the local authority bags are really not up to the job. However, a sturdy tote bag with the faces of two lovely ladies might make my job so much easier. And it would be a fabulous talking point for the children. Do you know what, Wendy? Let's get them while they're young. So I'm going to say absolutely. That one is going over to Hannah and Wendy's stretch is the first tote bag of the week. I wonder whether some people send their children to school just because it presents a kind of childcare solution.

Oh, God of course! I mean, it's certainly why I would not have properly investigated the possibility of, although I didn't have summer-born babies, but because at least there's a pattern and a structure to school, because you've still got the really long school holidays, but that's slightly steadier hours than what a nursery could provide? But I guess there are school nurseries too now. There are school nurseries, but I'm sure, I mean the nursery, personally I think nursery provision in this country is just nowhere near right. You've got these two forces on

particularly women, which is to return to work, especially the are you an economically active unit in society? Are you paying tax? But also you know you should have children and be you know and be able to fit that into I mean any parent's life, that's the point isn't it? You just need to work out a better way for everybody to come out of it vaguely sane, not even happy sometimes but sane and that nursery provision the three hours in the day, the 15 hours a week that might be free, that's changed and the hours have gone up, but it's still nowhere near the cover that you need

if you're expected to work as well. So I'm sure there are lots of parents who slightly reluctantly say, yep, okay, do the full school day. And I wouldn't judge anyone for, you know, whatever the motivation is for that. It's just because what lies before hasn't been right. I think a lot of reception classes and even later in school, I mean, do children do sometimes just have a nap in the afternoon and nobody, you know, they turn up, well, that's not a question of them turning a blind eye, they just let it happen. Because some children

just get very tired because they're tiny You know when you go to vote as we do a local primary school and see the level of the page Some of these kids are shorter than me and fee I find a primary school Lou very comfortable I must ask my mom whether I started school just after I was four or just after I was five. I must, because I think, because I was born in late summer, late June, so did I go when I was four? I think I went when I was five, I'll find out. Well the nation awaits.

I mean it's a gripper isn't it? What a saga. Let's find out. Kay slightly chastises us and you're absolutely right to do this Kay. The belly fat ad, the woman with the dog on the beach has hit my news website feed this week here in New Zealand. I recognise it from your description in last week's podcasts. Other more generic belly fat ads, the side profile organs ones are also popping up. Spooky coincidence, either which way, they're hard to stomach. And I'm sorry because just in us talking about it, we've made it appear on people's feeds.

I hadn't thought about this. So Kay says, could you just have a few conversations about George Clooney? Yes, because he's intervened in the American election, hasn't he? I'm never sure how I feel about actors, you know, getting themselves into the political mix. But I guess he has and he appears to have had quite the impact. I've always had time for George. Well he's done quite a lot of political work himself, hasn't he? Yes he has. So he's been talking about Yemen and Sudan for years and years and years when nobody

really wanted to, particularly in America. So I'd like to put him in the good bloke category. Oh yeah, I would too. But do you actually think politics benefits from the intervention of the celebrities? I never really know. I mean, I don't want celebrities saying things like never vote, it's a pointless exercise. But then equally, I don't really want them to say, you know, vote this way. Yeah, vote this way. I just think pointless exercise, but then equally I don't really want them to say You know this way. Yeah, but this way I just think well, don't tell me what to do Whoever you are. I've my I reserve my particular contempt for those people who say whoever wins the election They'll move they'll leave the country, but they're usually saying Barbados

Gone anyway, we don't care. I don't mind it at all James. I'm thinking also You know Taylor Swift made a hugely important intervention didn't she, to support women's rights against a senator who was standing against women's rights and she said right come on, you know, let's vote. Although I gather there's been a recent, I'm not totally across this, but she did something yesterday at the US Open's men's final, whenever it was, and she was seen in the company of someone who's recently endorsed Donald Trump and that hasn't gone down very well. Oh yeah.

And she's seen sort of embracing this woman who, I confess it's caused a lot of minor pandemonium in the Swift universe. Do you think that there's something, there's a kind of chill wind coming towards Taylor Swift now? Well I hope, well I, yeah it's funny that isn't it, I wonder whether she's had so much success and indeed critical acclaim as well because she is a great songwriter. Yeah it might well be that her knockers are coming out for her now. She always had some. She always had people who hated her. Yeah. I wouldn't like to see that at all.

No, I don't think I would either. But at the same time, I suppose, you see, I'm now about to massively contradict myself because I suppose I want her to come out and say, don't vote for Donald Trump. So there we are. Aren't I a massive contradiction? A massive change. I'm just a mass of contradiction. We did ask a couple of weeks ago about slightly nervy royal encounters and Jane, who doesn't want

her surname given and I understand that, says that she had one 25 years ago. She was a young civil servant working for a senior cabinet minister, senior. He introduced me to the Duchess of Kent and the three of us were just chatting about her recent trip to Nepal on behalf of a charity she was patron of. She complained that she'd been flown out in economy, which she described as a frightful experience. The minister expressed alarm and indeed outrage that British Airways had not upgraded her to a better class of travel. I nodded along, trying to look both interested and sympathetic. Yeah, I know

that face. Have you got that face? He's really good at that face. I think I'm less good. I was at this party on Saturday night where honestly I've got to the age now where I just can't really hear anything very much. And it was in an upstairs room at a pub you know for a very it was a surprise party for a woman who richly deserved celebration and Sue I hope you enjoyed it but honestly I couldn't hear anything so I was basically reduced to just nodding just go okay and I I just want to say now if you were there and I offended you because I reacted in completely the wrong way to the story about your dog losing a limb or your mother passing away. I'm incredibly sorry. I just couldn't hear a bloody thing.

So don't you think that sometimes it would be helpful to just be able to wear a badge at parties saying exactly that? I maybe sub- every bit of my life now needs subtitles, particularly parties in upstairs rooms at pubs. Yeah, I totally agree. Well, I find restaurants worse. I know we've done this before. But don't you think our height is against us here? Totally. Our height is totally, totally against us. And it always was. It always was. But I've definitely lost the ability to talk to tall men for many reasons actually, Jane.

Well, yes. Let's not... But also, Janedeningham for a company where the Princess Royal's husband, current not former, she's keen to make clear, was a senior advisor. I found myself lost for words while queuing alongside him at one of the office printers, waiting for it to finish spewing out another colleague's 200 pages. Well, Commander Lawrence, he does sound a nice chap, he broke the silence with chit chat about the day's weather, which he described V as beastly. Beastly! I nodded. I nodded and agreed. On our next encounter he was walking purposefully towards the lift I was already in. I moved forward to press the button to keep the door

open but in my haste I pressed the closed door button instead. I thought I could completely relate. My shame was made worse because the lift doors were glass, so we were face to face as the doors closed and I disappeared down to the ground floor. I really get that, Jane, and I'm so sorry. But Commander Lawrence, beastly is a very good adjective. It is. For most British weather days. I always think, I think he does look like a nice man, doesn't he?

Yes. Yes, he does. So we'll talk about him a bit more and about George Clooney. Can I just say on the US Open thing, I did try and stick with Yannick Sinner and Jack Draper's match on Friday night. Was it when he was sick? Yeah, I had to stop watching, so I was so worried about Jack Draper's health. He was sweating so much And he just went that terrible kind of gray green color And then he vomited and I just felt and I and you know, I was kind of vaguely

Watching it come up on the socials, you know So I just knew something absolutely awful happened and he had to be carted off court, I would see it there, I wouldn't actually have to watch it. But I do wonder about that, Jane. At what point do they say actually this is a human being in distress? Is this entertainment? Yes, and... Well, I turned off at the same point. Did you? Yes, for the same reason. Yeah, because it's not... I felt sorry for him and I, yes, I was slightly worried and I think it's a really good point. He is a young man, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have health issues that may need to be dealt with. Yeah. I mean, I just think if you saw somebody like that displaying those kinds of symptoms,

I don't know, on a park run or just on a, you know, on your local tennis court. I mean, I'd probably go over and say, you okay? Do you want to just sit in the shade for a bit? Can I get you a can of pop? I'm just trying not to brand it, Jane. You want to sit in the shade and have a can of pop? Says Auntie Fee. I'm relaxed already. I'm feeling better. Do you know what I mean? I just thought, oh, can't watch you, you're not having a great time. No, poor Jack, I mean hopefully he'll be alright and I think he will go on to victory in other majors as we say in the squadron.

I'm sure he will. Do you know what, I watched as an alternative the first episode of The Perfect Couple. Oh, have you seen them? Well I chomped my way through the whole thing this weekend. Oh have you? Because I'm afraid I think I've given up. I did one episode and thought, I don't know. I couldn't really tell who anybody was. If you got a great big saucepan and you put a copy of

the world's trashiest crime fiction and Hello magazine into the saucepan boiled it up, that's what you get. Okay. It is glossy, glinty and very, very watchable, but it's also absolute... Is it tosh? ...tosh. Yeah. Towering tosh. Yeah.

Okay. So it does that thing where it kind of points the finger at a different luscious, beautifully attired member of the cast. In every episode. In every kind of ten minutes or so. Okay, well, maybe I'll go back to it. But it's nice background scenery, Nantucket. Yes.

It looked lovely. I wouldn't go there. Have you been? Well, it's on the Long Island thing, isn't it? Yeah, I haven't been. And we did go to visit my lovely friend from university who married an American and they live up on Long Island, but they live on Long Island because he works in the hospitals, the local hospitals there. And I think the experience of actually living in a place like that, which is then descended

upon by the crowd that in the Netflix series, it's the summer crowd who go there to enjoy their boating, kayaking and murder. It was the house was a bit like South Fork in Dallas. Hugely so. I think that's quite an interesting, I think that creates interesting facets of your life actually and I'm not sure all for the good and that's like it's not for me to say anymore but you know what I mean? I mean I sometimes feel it must be weird to live near Glastonbury and just be invaded. Yeah once a year your life changes. Nan Tucket is, it was Wailing, was that what they did there? It was a Wailing town. Okay I'm out of my depth like I was

with religion a little bit earlier. But somebody will know, Jane Maffey at Times.Radio. Can I just read this one from Anne and then we'll bring in David Hepworth with his fact based book. Overrated fact. Few eats. Overrated fact. Anyone who's still awake.

Here we go. We know no one is, Fee. I won £18.90 of shopping on us in February 2022. Anne's email is called Sparks can make you very happy. I was living temporarily in Chichester and popped into that store on a Friday afternoon for a rather random selection of items as a top-up before my waitress delivery the next day. Love the detail Anne. It was such a shock I was using self-checkout and I didn't know what to do. I took a photo of the screen and asked an assistant he said I think it's okay for you just to

leave. Said he'd never seen it before I took a photo he took a photo of it himself that puzzled me because it's supposed to happen once a week in each store. My digital receipt came through to my email as a record a few minutes later see evidence below. We've seen the evidence haven't we? So but what a nightmare that she hadn't got a trolley stuffed to the gills. Well this is Eve's tip because Anne goes on to say, of course I regretted not having bought more that time briefly, but it soon left me with a warm glow at a time when life wasn't great. I know it will never happen again but I still

swipe my barcode religiously so that M&S donate to my chosen charity which is Shelter. So the tip was to not use your Sparks card when you're buying just the egg sandwich just in case shopping on us happens to you. And it might. And it could. Because you've got to be in it to win it. You have and you've got to you've got to look to life with an expectation of joy and happiness, not the doom. Well, as you know, I'm first on the national, what do you call it, premium bond prize checker every single month and it lights up your life when you realise you've won £25. Careful where you reveal the results. I'll be careful.

Yes. You don't want the person sitting next to you on the bus to know. You're £ pounds richer. The world is getting more dangerous and understanding how helps. I'm Alex Dibble and I present the Times' World in 10 podcast where we hear from military specialists and our renowned foreign correspondents. The most likely cause of a world war in the next 10 years. This isn't something you want to get mixed up.

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Acast.com. Keith Richards used to greet audiences with the phrase, it's good to be here, it's good to be anywhere, acknowledging the fact that the aging rock star faces a constant battle with his own mortality. Booking a worldwide two-year own mortality, booking a worldwide two year long tour, is that really wise? It's the theme of David Hepworth's latest book, I Hope I Get Old Before I Die, which looks at how and why the big beasts of music are still going strong in a way that they never were before. David, you're very welcome on the

programme. Nice to be here. Your thesis is that we are witnessing and many of us are actually really enjoying a phenomenon aren't we? It is the ability of rock gods and they are monogods in their third age to still come out and delight us. Yes, they seem to come back in the third age. I suppose you know the classic rock star trajectory now is the you have your 20 and your early 30s when you're massively productive. And then in your 40s, you're a bit of an embarrassment for a while.

You know, your audience goes off and has children or whatever pursues their life in whatever way they do. And then when you're in your 50s and 60s, you announce that you're going back on the road and they want to go and see you again to relive you know their youth and suppose this is a classic case we're saying this at the moment live in the case of oasis you know that now's the time to come back when you're just striking your third age and of course the third age given the kind of you know increase in life expectations of people you know it goes on longer and longer you know, increase in life expectations of people,

you know, it goes on longer and longer. The book starts at Live Aid, when Paul McCartney comes up at the Live Aid to close out by saying, let it be. And he was a kind of venerable, craggy figure, as if he'd come down from Mount Rushmore. Well, he was 43, which just gives you an idea of how our view of all these people has changed, you know, and all these people, if capable, are still performing in their late 70s and

80s. So what do you think Paul McCartney would have said if you had told him at Live Aid, and of course you were there, that actually he would be headlining Glastonbury further down the line, so much further down the line. Well, clearly he would have been thrilled to bits. You know, because Paul McCartney developed a brilliant third age by effectively being in the Beatles.

You know, he was the one member of the Beatles who didn't turn his back on the Beatles legacy at all. So he goes there and they're playing the Hofner violin bass that he played in Hamburg in 1961 or whatever. So as he says, from a distance he still looks like Paul McCartney. He looks good though. Which is an extraordinary thing really. Yeah, no he really does look good. Some of the other rock guides, they don't look so good, but we forgive them them for that don't we? Only if they're male I think David. Well it's interesting you should say that because I mean they're in case

you would probably have said that 10 years ago but you know people like Madonna are still still going you know and there's Stevie Nicks was playing in Hyde Park only the other week you know Joni Mitchell is somehow making a comeback from dreadful illness, you know, and has really got the taste for it again. So you wouldn't bet against, you know, are we going to see, well, not in my lifetime, but you know, the lifetime for some of the listeners to this programme,

we're going to see a hundred year old rock star and probably as likely to be female as male. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you're optimistic in that way because actually I am too. I can't imagine that Taylor Swift or Billie Eilish or Dua Lipa wouldn't want to still be absolutely at the whatever it is place of their game when they're 60 or 70. I think I hope that the landscape has changed to allow them to still be prolific. Well it's possible because it's interesting if you contrast rock stars with kind of, you

know, footballers. I heard Gary Lineker recently say he hadn't kicked a ball since he was 35, since he stopped playing football. Which is very sad to me, that is. But rock stars are pretty much the only entertainment professionals. We can still go out and do roughly what you did at the age of 27 in front of more people paying more money and getting more reverence and approbation than you probably had at any stage in your life.

And you know if you've once done that I think it's really hard to turn your back on it you know. If you're Keith Richard you can go out you know they were only on tour a couple of weeks ago weren't they in the States, you can go out and play the opening chords of Honky Tonk Women and feel that wave. How many times have you seen the Rolling Stones? Not that many, probably about half a dozen one way or another. I'm not one of those people, I'm not like a devoted kind of football supporter. I don't feel that I have to go forever, which is one of the things that goes on nowadays.

Because the other thing that's interested me in writing the book is it's not just about the performers, it's about us. It's about our desire to continue to see these people. And so now you have people who've seen the Runge Stones or Bruce Springsteen or whoever it is, 20, 30, 40 times and kind of feel that they ought to be seeing them absolutely as long as they walk the face of the planet, which is a kind of expectation nobody ever predicted at all.

I think your book is absolutely fascinating because you've lived it and breathed it and written about it and it's got some really beautiful prose in it. One of the things, the tiny details that I appreciated was you saying that you believe that one of the attractions of going to see Bruce Springsteen is actually his endurance and the kind of love that there is on stage. So you can buy into being part of something that stayed together, that really worked,

and that seems to have pleased most of the main players. Do you think that there is anything in the Oasis reunion that is trying to play into exactly that? That we want to believe that those two boys can make up, they can have a happier family, our kid can behave himself. Just like the dear old mum wants to see. Yes, but do you think that that's somewhere in our lives? Well, I think, tell you what I think, I think if you go to see any reunion of people who were heroes of yours when you were 14, when they looked down on you from your bedroom wall, what you're going to see in here is not musical. It's

a ceremonial thing. It's a semi-religious thing. You know what I mean? It's, oh look, there they are. I think Bono said this, you know, when people go and say you too in their 50s or whatever, the mere youngsters, half the value is for the audience is just seeing them walk on stage. Oh look, there they are. They survived. They re… well yes, and also, it's also your boyhood, girlhood heroes are still there. And you feel in seeing that, that something in you is kind of repaired Something is made good again

And and I don't think there's anything else that does that you can't do it You can't go and look at your old football team. You can see a club. That's different thing Whereas you're going to see Paul McCartney It's difficult to see Paul McCartney without just shedding a tear that oh my goodness, it's Paul McCartney still doing what he loves, you know, who's been famous all of my life never mind anybody else's life. Will you go and see Oasis? No, I'm not the kind of person, I was never a particularly, I'm never particularly a fan in the first place, no, clearly there's quite sufficient competition for tickets. They don't need my quid or 200 quid or whatever it is. What did you think about the ticketing? I mean this dynamic pricing, it hurts fans.

Well you always get into these endless debates about what are real fans and I never really know what are real fans anyway. know. What you've got nowadays far more than you ever had at any stage in the past is just insane demand for anything you know what I mean. I don't know how many major stadiums they've announced that they're going to fill but it's more than the Rolling Stones would have done, even the Zenith of their popularity, because FOMO, you know, what we've been reminded of in the last two weeks via Oasis, is FOMO is not just a smart lifestyle piece, it's a fact of life. People feel this, and there's this desperation setting in quite early on in the piece.

These gigs don't take place for another year. I don't believe these shows are all going to be sold out, you know, very often people can get tickets, you know, in the week before or whatever. But what happens you get a panic early on, which Oasis is quite happy to see because it gets them all over the the media and so forth. And therefore prices rise in response to that panic because people will pay insane amounts. I wouldn't. And I wouldn't for anybody really. That's partly because I'm fortunate enough to have seen everybody I wanted to see when there was a roof over the top of the venue and the prices were reasonable and you could get in and do it. But you know post-live aid, and this is one of the points I made in the book,

the book starts with a live-ed, you know, that that's when the age of spectacle began and suddenly everybody sitting at home thought, I want to go to one of those things. You know, gigs used to be attended by people wearing great coats who queued up all night outside Earl's Court. They're not anymore. They're attended by your neighbours, coats, who queued up all night outside Earl's Court. They're not anymore. They're attended by your neighbors, your kids' teachers, by absolutely everybody.

Everybody. And through the 70s and the 80s, the universe of people for pop music, for live pop music, it was 14 to 30, roughly. Now it's eight to 18. And it's competitive, you know, as my daughter, you know, why do people go to Glastonbury? She just looks at me like I'm a fool.

Instagram is the reason people go to Glastonbury. Yeah, and between the artists, it's competitive as well, isn't it? I was reading a piece about, was it The Weekend performed in Rio, to I think a hundred thousand people and you just think I imagine the weekend. Oh really?

Well no but seriously big enough for a hundred thousand people? Well possibly free I don't know. Oh I see. I don't know. But there were two shows announced today taking place at the Spurs Stadium next year and one is Imagine Dragons and the other is a group whose name I've forgotten between sitting out in your reception and coming in here. Now that accommodates 60 000 people. That gives you an idea of the increased scale of the demand for

tickets for big shows. Yeah and if you're an artist and you see that somebody who's got the same kind of streaming numbers as you can sell out a stadium that big, you're going to want to be bigger, aren't you? You're going to want to keep going and going and going. And also you want the money. Don't forget, they are making sums of money out of live performers nowadays that nobody ever made in the past. You know, go back to the 70s and 80s, an album was more expensive than a ticket, generally. You went, you bought a Human League album, you could go and see them

all cheaply. You know, it's not the case anymore. The music is effectively free, the live show is effectively, you know, difficult to price. Who is the best artist you have ever seen? The best live, I always say the best live show I ever saw and I'm very fortunate it was actually captured on record which is 1975 I think it is, Bob Marley and the Wailers at the Lyceum, which is the Bob Marley and the Wailers live album. I've never seen or heard anything like that because it was a sound the like of which nobody had heard before. You'd never heard Reggae played with that kind of heft and that kind of volume. You'd never seen a performer who was simultaneously kind of stoned out of his gourd,

but also completely on the money in terms of his command of the live performance. And you heard all the songs that you were going to hear for the rest of your life, that you were going to be tormented with by buskers on the London Underground ever since. That was the best show I ever saw. Do you know what, I love that expression, stoned out of his gourd. Who do you rate at the moment, who is exciting you in your earbuds? Oh, good grief. I mean, all sorts of things that I completely forget about once I've heard them, you know,

because I don't think we get attached to the stories of things the way that we used to get attached to the stories of things. Things just flow in and out via Spotify and you think, oh, I might hear that again, it doesn't matter if I don't. I listened to a lot of jazz, actually, and I was very pleased to see that the Mercury Music Prize, well, last year was run by Ezra Collective, the jazz outfit, who I'm personally very enthusiastic about. I like them, great deal. Excellent, and the Mercury Prize was won this year by?

By? English teacher. English teacher, which is usually a bad sign because they always used to say that bands whose names finished with E-R were almost always terrible. Really? Yes. I wrote a feature about this in Sounds at about 1977 so you can go and find it somewhere. I'm trying to think, the selector? What was wrong with them?

That's not quite the same as the-selator, but foreigner, you know, widow maker. They tended to be, ER bands tended to be American bass groups, you know, who went in for kind of rather neutral ballads. Big fan of David and I think I'd like to, can I borrow that book now please? Yes, you can and because I would recommend it, it's got lots of pictures which is always very helpful and it's in very, he does very short chapters but also he's just the master of good prose. So it's just a really lovely book to read, even if you aren't absolutely dedicated to the facts. But I think the point about whether or not your kids will want to carry on seeing the people who they love at the moment in 40 years time. I think that's really interesting because the music scene is dominated now by unbelievably talented young women and I hope and I think

and I like to believe that they will be encouraged, allowed to and celebrated for keeping their careers going all the way through, live, on stage, whatever. Whatever their face looks like. Until whatever time they choose not to do it anymore. So hopefully it's a book that will make no sense in the next generation. Sorry David. Yeah, it's a little bit hard for David to stop it possibly, but I'm sure he's got over it. Now we have a whole host of guests lined up for this week, including, as I mentioned earlier,

the mountaineer Kenton Call and also TV guru really and novelist Linda LaPlante who is on later in the week and who is from Liverpool not just from Liverpool she's from the same part of Liverpool as me and she has a little bit of a feud with Crosby's other leading lady Anne Robinson. Lots to look forward to there and do let us know if you've changed your duvet. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online, on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.