Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I got a pocket, got a pocketful of Anusol (with Dame Maggie Aderin)

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

Jane has yet again come to work with a smile on her face (the office heating was on and the canteen was stocked with Cadbury’s Fruit and Nut). Fi’s still off, so Eve props Jane up - they chat Barbara Pym, aliens, bowling with piles, and book translations. Plus, space scientist Dr Maggie Aderin-Pocock discusses her memoir 'Starchild'. Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How is you? Nobody can. No, actually, no, I haven't got a particularly low voice, but, you know, you are much blessed in that department, as we know. Oh, I think I got about on recording. Welcome. Welcome to Wednesday's podcast. Yes, Eve's now, as you can tell, fully recovered from her trip to Berlin.

Right. Now, actually, we've got a question for you here. We should just say fee is off for half term, but Eve is womanfully filling in in a way. I'm very much here. And that's the only requirement to do this podcast. Yeah, thank you. I think they'll find there's a little bit more to it.

Madeline, it joins us. Madeline is way up in snowy, North Germany. I bet it's lovely. Actually, my eldest child is on business abroad at the moment and she's in Sweden and she told me it was minus nine, Eve. Oh, that is cold, isn't it? That is cold, that's really cold. It's properly cold.

And she sent me a picture of a branch of a shop I'd never heard of before called IKEA. She's really seeing all the sights. She's seeing everything. She had one of those lovely hotel breakfasts, but I did feel, obviously I got an image of it because this is 2026 and that's what you do. You send your mom a picture of your breakfast. She had a plate which encompassed just about everything,

including smoked salmon and baked beans on the same plate. Now, how do you feel? about that. I wasn't sure. I'm into it. I'm kind of into it also. The beans were touching the salmon. She's making the most of that work expense budget. Oh no. Well, you always do. Good for her. Yeah, get up to the hotel buffet breakfast bar. Get stuck in. Anyway, this isn't about her. This is about Madeline, who's in North Germany. Eve's comment on Jane was spot on. She comes to work with a smile on her face and her spring and her step. That's what you said yesterday. Did I? I wasn't myself yesterday. No, clearly not.

Jane, that's exactly how you come across to us listeners, says Madeline. Oh, Madeline, that's, I mean, it isn't strictly true. Evo's being very nice. No, you do come in. Look, the office is warm. The company is relatively genial. It's all you need. Coming from the outdoors, you just need a bit of warmth to make a smile. Exactly. And look, I do think it's one of those things.

I think if you have a job you like, you should be able to own it. Or just acknowledge it, because you're very lucky. That's true. Yeah. And I thought it was actually quite good because you said that yesterday that you enjoyed coming to work and then someone had emailed and said please please don't ever stop doing this and I thought you just given them

a little bit of reassurance that they probably needed you've no need to worry on my behalf we're talking about that earlier weren't you that even in James retirement she'll probably still turn up to the building well that was you who very rudely said I'd just go and sit in reception hope that somebody takes pity

on me and puts me in front of a microphone it's just harsh that it does make me wonder whether in that home for what is it be called They're no longer particularly impartial but surprisingly commercially viable. Distressed folk. We'll just be put in front of pretend microphones. Apparently this is what you used to do for a living.

Everyone's listening. Keep on doing it. Just don't annoy anybody else. Anyway, this is about something else. Andrew, you wondered if our leaders suffer from what Cockney's called Chalfont-St. Giles. This was actually, I think this was Fee wondering, in the light of the really weird product placement of Anosol, in that slightly ropey

ITV drama betrayal Well Andrew has news Some historians say that Napoleon Wasn't at the Battle of Waterloo with his troops Because he was at home suffering from the affliction That puts history in a whole new light, doesn't it? Bill Bryson mused often on the absurdities of TV commercials Particularly in America

Citing the instance of a man out bowling with his mates But the man who was bowling, according to Andrew was in obvious discomfort, verging on pain. And his buddy announced, his buddy noticed this. Can we just say it's a wonder that a middle-aged man did notice that another man was in physical distress. But in this world of advertising, this person did. Anyway, his buddy produced from his top pocket,

a tube of appropriate cream. As Bill said at the time, would you go bowling in the first place if you were suffering? And if you'd gone bowling, despite your suffering, would your buddy there have a tube of that ointment with him? God, it just gets worse. Right, okay, I for one don't go out with anusole. I'm not saying, though, that I've never purchased it.

Let's just be honest about it. Anyway, Andrew has another nugget here. Thank you, Andrew. Regarding Lord of the Flies, and I must say, by the way, that I said I wouldn't watch any more of it or didn't think I could. I did watch the second episode. It's such a powerful, powerful series.

Are you going to finish it? Well, it's interesting. I was in the bookshop this morning, I picked, they've reissued Lord of the Flies, not surprisingly, on the strength of this BBC show. And I couldn't remember the end. So I stood in the shop and just went to the last chapter and read some of it. I now think, gosh, I think I might finish it because it ends with, no, I won't give it. I won't, no, it's not fair.

I won't do a spoiler. Basically, an adult turns up at the end and really is, the adult is horrified by what's gone on. But anyway, finally, says Andrew, regarding Lord of the Flies, I was a pupil of William Golding, which is just incredible. He was a teacher. We used to call him Scroff. That's what he was called by both masters and boys. We all thought it unlikely that the boys would behave as he described in that book. And an optician has pointed out that Piggy's sight wouldn't require the appropriate lenses to make fire. Always somewhat distant when taking class. we now know where his thoughts were taking him. Andrew, that's absolutely fascinating to have been taught by William Golding. That is so interesting. Thank you for that insight.

And I suppose you're referring to the fact that Piggy in the book is the short-sighted lad played brilliantly in the TV show by a young actor called David McKenna and they take his glasses off and then they put the light through it to try and make fire. But according...

It was the wrong kind of lens. The wrong kind of lens. What is the right kind of lens? I actually don't know. That's where my... intelligence completely ends. Anyway, thank you. Thank you very much for that. Sue says, in the light of that conversation with Giselle Pelico's lawyer yesterday, I have just ordered her book. It's just a tiny show of solidarity with a remarkable woman. I think a lot of people,

I'm going to say people, I wonder whether it is largely women, will do as Fee had suggested by the book, even if you don't feel entirely okay about reading it. I would say it's a well-written book. She had an excellent ghostwriter who helped her with it and I gather as well that the women who translated the book I don't speak French so I obviously read the translation have also done a wonderful job we had an email didn't we yes we did have an email actually and I can't remember where it is now

from someone who's was it the boyfriend's mom yes yeah a correspondent's boyfriend's mom had been the translator and we should get that email we should we'll find that email apologies for our inadequacies but that is interesting also I I would, I've said before that obviously because I don't speak any foreign languages. I am in awe of people who can translate books. We were talking about this in the office, weren't we?

Because it's always the question of whether you lose, how you make sure everything is right. Yeah, I'm reading, I'm actually the last 50 pages I'm eking out of the Eleanor Ferranti, Neapolitan novels. And they're obviously translated from Italian to English, the version I'm reading. And there's so much sentiment in the language and it's so specific. and it's so relentless that I can't comprehend how someone can understand that in both languages and find the equivalent.

Rosie, executive producer, her partner is Italian and she was saying that sometimes he says when he tries to translate things, there just isn't an equivalent. Sometimes he can't explain it, he can't find it. So to have that skill is such an amazing thing.

It really is. And I've always been fascinated by people who can speak two or three languages because I just think their brains are just very, very different. Yeah, it was the word preposterous that tripped me up when I was reading it. Oh, that's right. So you wondered what that had been in Italian? Yeah, and if there had been a direct translation,

or if that was the interpretation of what, and how direct is that translation? Do you go really specific? And do I read a different version? Are you getting a different book, effectively, for all the best efforts of the translators? A series of very interesting questions. Lots to think about.

Well, we're quite highfalutin here on offer. When we choose to be. If you are a translator, let us know what that is like, particularly if you are, if you've been given the enormous responsibility actually of translating a really... It's a huge responsibility. Yeah, important book like Giselle Pelicose or like those much-loved Eleanor Ferrantic. Do you know, I haven't read a word of any of them? How long is it taken you to read all three? So it's take...

There's four. I knew that, yes. There's... It's taken me, I started at the end of last summer, but this last one, I'm going to Naples in. two weeks. So I've been dragging it out. I want to finish them just in time for when I go to Naples. It's been such a constant companion. I don't

want to finish that. I know what you mean. I feel the same about Ken Follett. You've got a lot of Follett to get through to be fat. Well, no, I'm in the Cold War at the moment. We've done the first, the second, and now it's the cold. Which is appropriate at the moment, I can tell you that. Linda says, I was amazed

to hear Robbie Millen mentioned Barbara Pym last night. Yes, this was in our literary salon edition. of the programme on the pod on Monday. Does he really have an odd copy of some tame gazelle, Barbara's very first novel, just lying about on his very literary desk? Well, it's a good question, Linda.

I have to say, Robbie never fails to surprise. He's always unearthing classics and things that suddenly have come into his mind or he's suddenly found something on one of his many shelves at home. I guess when you have a job like literary editor of the Times and the Sunday Times, you are a book lover, and he most definitely is. he's probably got thousands of books at his disposal.

Linda goes on to say, I'm a member of the Barbara Pim Society. I joined a couple of decades ago when I went to live in Queens Park in London. Now, across the road, there was an amateur version of a blue plaque announcing that Barbara Pim, the novelist, had lived there. I'd never heard of her,

so I went to Kilburn Library and got a couple of her novels. I fell in love with her work instantly. I was a television director in those days, often in far-flung places with an all-male crew and often lonely and fed up with male jokes and male company. Barbara changed my life and has remained my favourite novelist ever since. Right, this is it. I've got to read a book by Barbara Pim.

I am going to do it. We've worked very hard in the PIM Society to get Barbara back on the telly or into the cinema, but no luck so far. Well, look, if they can do William Golding's Lord of the Flies, admittedly brilliantly, why can't they do Barbara Pim? It's another good point. Back in 2013, Miriam Margulies, another member and I, made a film for Barbara Centenary, but it was for members only at our annual conference.

Since then, many members have made attempts to revive Barbara on the screen rather than on the page. And just as you said yesterday, I suppose it is bound to happen sometime. I love your podcast and I love Barbara. It's a pretty safe bet that your listeners would adore her work. If they want to know more about or join the PIMS. society. We've got members all over the world and both a North American and British conference every year. There is even a website, everybody. It's barbara dash pymn.org. Linda, thank you for that. I know Linda's written before. She's always really interesting.

Let's just try and get behind the idea of a Barbara Pim, television. It would fit into that slot on a Sunday evening, you know, after the antiques, which I used to mock. And now increasingly, I absolutely love that show. I feel like everybody's getting an adaptation at the moment. Classics are getting a new lease of life. So why not Barbara? Why doesn't Emerald Fennell get hold of Barbara Pim? Actually, God knows what she'd do to that.

No, you are seeing... I'm not sure the Barbara Pim Society would like that. No, I'm not sure they were done. I can't remember which camp you're in. Are you pro or anti-wothering? Oh, well, we're going on Thursday. Oh, well, we're... Let's have your verdict next week.

I'm open to it. I just like being part of the cultural moment. I see do I. I mean, I'm not much of a judge. I just like knowing what's out there. and I want to have a view, even if it's not a very informed one. So actually, I can slag it off even if I haven't seen it. Well, I can't go this weekend. I'm too busy, but I will try and go.

You might fall behind the culture from where, man. Oh, yes, we can't have that, right? Zeitgeist and me very closely linked. We do have a guest, thank God you'll be thinking. It's the absolutely brilliant Dame Maggie Adairn, who's got a book called Star Child, My Life, Under the Night Sky. And as I speak, I've just looked this up, Eve, you'll be impressed by my attempts at research.

Oh, wow. Tomorrow is due to be the day of the next wet dress rehearsal for NASA's new Artemis II expedition. What is a wet dress rehearsal? Well, we've covered it on the programme, so strictly speaking, you should know the answer to that. I'm often editing this podcast. Well, we'll move on to spare Eve's blushes,

but suffice to say that Maggie is an astrophysicist, and she's British, and she's been made a dame for all her efforts in science education and much more besides. She is one of the presenters of the sky at night, so it's a good time to have her on. Actually, it's been a busy week in space because we've had the Obama aliens controversy as well.

So Maggie will be able to bring us up to date. Bring us back down to Earth or Matt? No, I'm the one who brings people back down to Earth. This is from an anonymous listener, confirmation in case I needed it, that I too have a resting bitch face. I moved out of the way for a small child to walk past me on a narrow path.

I stood patiently looking into the middle distance and his dad said, cheer up, he's only five. When I didn't respond, he then carried on with, don't you have kids? Another thing on my to-do list, make sure I smile at every child I encounter lest I disappoint their parents. Do you think that's a new rule? I wonder, it's an interesting point that. Are you supposed to always acknowledge?

You see, I find myself, when people are walking past with a dog, I often make a point of smiling at the dog. I'm not so keen. It's not that I'm not keen on children. I really like small children, but I don't know. Would I perhaps feel a bit that people might think I'm a bit creepy?

I do tend to try and smile at children just because you know when a baby smiles back at you, you feel like you've won. You've hit the jackpot there. You've kind of like, they like you. I occasionally get reactions from babies but more often than not, they just look, what? No, not you love, leave me alone.

Jill says, I'm listening to the program, this is the radio program and not the podcast, but we have been talking a lot this week actually about the measles outbreak in North London and I'm really interested in hearing from listeners particularly in the States where we know that vaccination rates well it's a bit of a challenge particularly in the light of some of the stuff

that's come out of the Trump administration but we have and we had a message yesterday from a man who'd had measles as a small boy this is on the radio show Eve to fill you in and he was actually it was a really upsetting message it was quite a long WhatsApp that came in to the live radio show, just saying, look, my sight was really, really impacted by a dose of measles when I was a small boy. And my life has always been challenging as a result. I wasn't able to do what I

wanted to do. And I cannot be more passionate, this guy said, about emphasising the need to get your children vaccinated. It really made me think. And this is another one, an email on similar lines. my younger brother who was about two and a half got measles in the late 1950s I imagine that the measles vaccination had not yet been invented then my brother went on to develop encephalitis and he was very very seriously ill I so well remember the ambulance arriving to take him to Great Ormond Street Hospital and my GP father telling my mother he was unlikely to survive actually he did but he was permanently affected by that disease

please please everyone vaccinate your precious children Jill thank you for that really sorry to hear about your younger brother's experience and isn't it telling that I don't know how old Jill was at the time but she can still remember that ambulance arriving and grim memories so we hope he's all right I mean perhaps he's not still around Jill but if he is I hope he's okay

because that is a really really tough call Sue has emailed to say you have brightened many of my trudged Try, what is it in room? Try again. Thank you. It's lovely when the young encourage you, isn't it?

This is from Sue. You have frightened many of my trudges through a rainy London this winter. Thank you. Yesterday, I listened to your interview with Jenny Godfrey with special interest. I worked with her during her corporate career and I implore her to turn her pen

to the vagaries of the modern workplace. The office meets industry with a bit less full frontal, so Sue. Yes. Well, Eve and I are both obviously working in the modern workplace and I agree with you, Sue. It would be excellent if Jenny, who, as she said in the interview, she'd risen very highly in the HR world and she got to a very high level. She was going to work here. She came for the job of head of HR here. So, you know, I'm not big in us up, although it's worth saying this is quite a big organisation. We could have had Jenny Godfrey working here.

And we didn't because she's gone on to be a best-selling novelist. But I think you make a very good case there, Sue. And I think Jenny could nail the vagaries, as Sue puts it, of the modern workplace. I'd love to read that. Yeah, I would love to read that. We know that her next book is actually about the year 1997, which reminds me. I was watching the Tony Blair documentary last night. Yeah. I'm so old that I actually was doing the breakfast show on the morning after.

the Labour election victory over at the BBC. What was that like? Well, it was busy. I bet. It was very busy. And the mood was, I mean, I can be, I think we'd had a long, long period of conservative rule. And a lot of people were that morning.

And I'm not talking about people at the BBC. I'm talking generally about the mood in the population. Was one of positivity and hope. And quite a bit of it came back to me watching that documentary last night. Although, obviously, a lot's happened since. That's just a lot of water has gone under that particular bridge. But if people are watching the Tony Blair documentaries, do let us know what you think about them. They're on Channel 4.

There's some interesting contributors, including Mandelson, it's worth saying, who pops up because presumably when this series was made, which will have been, I don't know, over the last couple of years, he was an entirely reasonable person to have included. Maybe not so much now. No. Yeah. We're still at that point in Britain where I feel as though we're still sort of slightly on the cusp of something pretty monumental happening.

But for various reasons it hasn't. Anyway, right, okay, just keep listening, that's all I say. We're going to get on to Dame Maggie in a moment, but this is from Joe. I'm a relative newcomer to your show, right? And I listen to the podcast on Tuesday and Thursday mornings whilst walking to the station for work. For context, I live in beautiful bath. Well, good news for beautiful bath. I've got one of my five live reunions coming up,

and it's in Bath in a week. I know my five live reunions come around ready, right? Oh, my God, they're bi-weekly. No, they're not. They're about seven or eight times I've seen it. It just feels like I'm always going on them, and it kind of am. But anyway, I can't help thinking that you both have the best job in the world. Having a lovely chat with your mate and putting the world to rights every day,

I can't think of anything nicer. Well, I mean, we don't complain, do we? As we've already indicated. Yeah, you do. Anyway, Joe says, I had to wade in on a couple of things. Flex is this shampoo that I'd forgotten about. Now I can't stop thinking about it. I was a great fan of the shampoo

and the custody conditioner back in the day. That smell was just sublime and often commented upon. And I used it up until my 20s when it seemed to vanish. And to be honest, that's why I gave up using it, not because I'd fallen out of love with it, but because I just couldn't find it anymore. And about six months ago, I had a moment of inspiration and I thought I'd look for it online

and it was there on Amazon. Oh yeah. So I ordered some, excited to see if it was as good as I'd remembered. Well, imagine my disappointment when I applied it liberally to my peri-menopausal hair only to realise it was definitely not the same smell at all. Was it a different formula? Again, I'm reaching out to people.

If you work in this industry, do you change your form? formulas and can that be a very simple tweak to what you put in? And indeed, what is in shampoo and conditioner? What's in it? And how is one different from the other? And if you tried to condition your hair with shampoo, would it make the slightest bit of difference? Either way, I don't like the new aroma or consistency and now have a huge bottle of the stuff languishing in the shower. I can't even get my teenage sons to use it, so it really must be bad. Which brings me onto Timite.

Do you recall the advert on telly where a beautiful young woman with perfect white blonde hair washes her tresses in a wooden urn in the mountains? It was very Heidi-esque. As a brunette, I long to be blonde and have hair like that. And even worse, there was a really pretty girl at school called Emma, who was her spitting image. I wonder what she's up to now.

Well, you do supply Emma's surname, which I haven't read out. And we've given it a Google. She's actually Secretary General of the United States. nations now. No, we will. No, I mean, I'm not going to invade this lady's life because she's absolutely entitled to her privacy. But I think all of us have got one of those girls in our heads, those girls at school who just looked, they just seemed to be set fair, no pun intended, for a glittering life of one sort or another. Have you got any advice to offer for blonde people? Because you're blonde, don't you? Use purple shampoo. And that's it. And on that bombshell,

let's bring in an astrophysicist. Our guest is Dame Maggie Adairn. Lovely to see you, Maggie. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. Lovely to see you. Now, I don't know how you want to be titled, but you are the co-host of the world's longest running science program, the Sky at Night. Former President of the British Science Association, currently the Chancellor of the University of Leicester, but you are also a self-confessed lunatic. I think the lunacy always wins. Well, we'll get on to you, Lucy, in a minute.

I've read your memoir, Star Child, My Life Under the Night's Skies. guy and it's quite the story yours and I've spoken to you quite a few times over the years and obviously we never, we were talking about space and astrophysics and we never mentioned your childhood or any of the other challenges that you've been through and I think it's fair to say you've been through a lot. Do you now acknowledge that? It's funny because I haven't in the past but actually in writing the memoir it really brought it home and I had a happy childhood but there were some challenges along the way. Yes. I think you you treat, certainly in the book, you tread very lightly over the challenges of your childhood.

I don't think many people would have been quite as capable as you of getting through it all, if I'm honest. Yes, it's interesting because I think with everybody's childhood, it's unique to them. Yeah, of course. And we take our childhood as normal. And as I was growing up, I realized, oh, no, you didn't go to 13 different schools. Oh, that's different. And so, but it's funny because I'm dyslexic.

And I think dyslexia gives you a certain resilience, a certain sort of a toughness. You face challenges and you face failure a lot because I can't spell. And so there are all sorts of challenges. I think it gives you resilience. And so I think that has almost driven me through. Yeah. The lunacy, of course, is connected to your passion for the moon. And you've actually gone far beyond the moon into the wilds of outer space.

But we will talk about your fascination with the moon. I mean, am I just being a kind of cod psychologist when I say that maybe you wouldn't wanted to look into space and look at space because your earthly reality was really quite rough. Yes, I think tumultuous and space transcended it all. It's funny, you were just talking about sort of racism and sort of belonging and things like that. Growing up, I really didn't feel I belonged anywhere. I was a lost Nigerian to my relatives and to some of the kids at school, I should go back home. And so I didn't feel I belonged anywhere.

But space transcended all of that because from space you don't see countries, you don't see barriers, you just see our glorious planet. And also Star Trek played a very big part in that. Of course. People from all over the world, including aliens like Spock, working together. And that really appealed. I'm sure it did. Well, didn't you start with the clangers and move on to Star Trek? Yes. The clangers are a bit of a gateway drug to the clangers. I mean, it was slow-moving entertainment, the clangers. Actually, one of my happiest moments is when I was actually put in an episode of the clangers. So only the second human to visit the clangers. I was there. And it was you.

You and what a tear to my eye. I was just so joyful. Oh, that is lovely. Can we just talk a little bit about your parents, who they were? And because together, they were together and then they divorced when you were quite young. They did, yes. So I think I was about four when my parents divorced. My younger sister, Gracie, was maybe six or seven months old. And there was an ongoing custody battle because my father wanted to keep me and my two elder sisters. There were four girls.

Yes. Together. But my mother wanted custody of myself and my younger sister and then my elder sisters to stay with my dad. And so there was lots of swishing around. And my mother also moved into a sweet shop, which was very appealing to me. I mean, I love that bit because you talk about, it was my favourite sweet at the time, Sherbert Lemons.

And I used to, I mean, no wonder I was dentally challenged, but I mean, I would get a quarter of Sherbert Lemons. every single morning on my way to school. Oh, wow. Before I'd had them in school break, snack. I mean, I don't think it was much of vitamin C involved in, though. But they, I mean, the sweets of our childhood were just something special, were there? They were.

And they invokes sort of memories. Because as you say, syrup at lemons, I can always, I get that tart feeling and the sweetness of the sherbets. Yeah, just amazing. So how long did your mum run the sweet shop for? Oh, I think it was probably an order of a year, maybe 18 months. That's the other thing, because I was so young, only four years old. timings at that stage, I'm not quite sure what happened when. But yes.

Well, reading the book, I'm probably relative, oh, no, I'm probably not unusual. I went to a primary school and a secondary school, and I lived in two houses during my childhood and adolescence. You went to, do you say 13 schools? 13, yes. And that was because? So, I often say this to school kids, and they look at me and say, you know, how naughty were you? So it wasn't like that. I don't think I was exposed from any schools.

No. But because of this ongoing custody battle, sometimes I was with my mum, sometimes I was with my dad. Some schools did just close, which helped rack up the numbers. You didn't cause them to close. No, no, I must make that very clear. I'm a lunatic, but not to that extent. No, okay. And did you ever feel, because you went to boarding school as well, we should say, did you ever feel, hang on, I do feel a bit disquieted by all this.

I'd like some stability in my life. I didn't realize that, and it's funny, because I didn't really, I had been to 13 different schools until a few years ago when I did Desert Island, actually, 15 years ago when I did Desert Island discs. And we were going through the research and I realized it was 13 different schools. And none of my sisters went to that many. And I knew I'd been to many, but I hadn't realized it was that many. And also, I think I am definitely a glass half full sort of person. I'm getting that impression.

I really am. Yes. But I think what I realized is it gave me a certain adaptability. I'm used to being sort of thrown into a situation. And so I sort of, yeah, see my surroundings and adapt to that. And then soon, then I might be in another situation. But I'd love to say I'm trauma-free, but I think there has been some ramifications of it. I'm a terrible hoarder because a few times I'd come home and would be in a different house with all my belongings gone.

And so now I have a tendency to hang on to things just for sort of emotional stability. I lost track of the number of jobs your dad had. I think at one point he was working for Pizza Express, wasn't he? He was. He was when I was quite young He used to make the dough for Pizza Express Off Arlington Road in Camden And we used to go and play in there

And I talk about that in the book And then later on he became the manager of Pizza Express in Hampstead And then we were living in a bed sit upstairs And we'd go downstairs and eat pizza And leave a penny And say, keep the change Get you I mean again was he

He comes across as a Well I know you were very close to him and you loved him, but he wasn't the easiest. No. And it was quite interesting writing about that in the book, because he was, I suppose, my linchpin in my life, and he gave me direction and purpose. And the ability to think, which I think is the best gift you can give anyone.

Served you quite well. But at the same time, there were fractures in the family, and sometimes he would cause those fractures. And so he sort of disowned my elder sisters for a while. And at one point he disowned me and it felt as if my world was collapsing. And we were sort of reintegrated later but that sort of closeness that I had

wasn't quite the same as it had been before. Has it been upsetting to revisit all this? Yes, it was quite traumatic in many ways actually. And it's funny because even when I was reading the audiobook, I was sort of reading a part about where my father died and I had to do it again because it was just it's quite interesting because there are emotions you think, my father died

over 20 years ago and the emotions you think are settled but when you go and revisit them and it's like poking the hornet's nest, it all starts buzzing up and you really feel it. What did your dad get to see you do before he died? He saw me get my PhD which was lovely

and he always laughed that before I got my PhD I would talk about it in a loud voice on the teeth I'm doing my PhD but when I actually got it I was so surprised I calmed down about it. What was it in? Just to impress everybody. Oh, you see. Well, it was a mechanical engineering, but it was...

To be precise, I'd like to know what the title of it was. Actually, well, the title of my thesis was Elastrohydrodynamic lubrication in concentrated contacts. Oh, yeah. Because, yeah, as you do. It was looking at very thin engine oils and seeing how you sort of, as they can lubricate surface. Because I'm actually a tribologist, which is a lubrication engineer, which I need to be very careful how I... Yeah, you do. When I tell people...

How that goes down. kind of polite company. We should say that for all your challenges with dyslexia at school, and I appreciate that you did have a tough time, and people thought you were thick. I mean, let's just be honest. I was at the back of the class, yeah. It must have been awful. You went to study physics at Imperial College. Now, this was in the 1980s, and you must have been the only, it was certainly the only black woman there. You must have been. Yes, I was the only black woman and I think it was there was a cohort of 200 in total and I think there were 10 women so about 5% women but definitely the only black woman and one other black guy there as well and that what

experience what was that like actually imperial I see again it's glass half full but I loved imperial they were very nurturing in fact he used to laugh because they used to you have it sort of you know the magazine so you know this is the physics department or this is the mechanical engineering department They used to put me in front of other people's equipment that looked really interesting. Look, we've got women, and she's black. And you were aware of that, isn't then? You knew exactly what they were doing. Yes.

And you, because you are a positive person, you just went with it. Yes, and also if it encourages other people, then it's a positive thing. I mean, you do talk in the book about racism just being preposterous, obviously, because, you know, we've already mentioned it, the infinity of space. So you can't, racism, there's no logic. It's so pointless and so ridiculous. It is. This thing is we have so much in common,

and yet we try and find tiny differences. And I don't know if that's human nature, but that just seems to be what we do. You do say that there'll be times, and I'm sure there still are times, where you are in meetings or you're addressing an audience, and they're all white. There's just a sea of white faces gazing up at you.

Now, in many ways, you're the winner there because you're talking to them. They've come to see you. Yes. But is it still troubling? No. And it's funny because it would be troubling if that's what I was latching onto. But often there's a sea of people and we have space or a love of space or a love of the moon in common.

And so that's why I like to think about it. What do we have in common rather than where our differences is? And the difference in the colour of our skin is minor. We've got so many other things in common. So that's what I like to focus on. Okay. Yeah, we are really getting the view that you are a very glass-is-half-person. But I think it's really paid off.

Yes, it does look as though it has, and I'm delighted for it. Honestly, your achievements are incredible. But the idea that racism has played a part in your life, you have, for example, been mistaken not for the person chairing the meeting, but for the person who might provide tea and coffee at the meeting. Yes, yes. Does that still happen? Less so. But I think that's one of the challenges, because I live in a sort of fairly rarefied atmosphere now, where things like this don't happen. But there are so many people where this is an everyday occurrence. And to me, it's like death by a thousand cuts. It's a sort of repetitive, like repetitive strain.

You must be worn down by that. And yes, in those situations, I have often been, always the question is how do you respond? And have you had it in your career, too, where someone's just assumed? Well, I mean, it works, it can work against you if you're female. Certainly in radio, I was a bit of a rarity in the early part of my career. But I'm white. So I don't get the double whammy.

Oh, yeah. And let's just be honest, Maggie, you have had it, haven't you? Yes. And the thing is, so I try and work out how to respond. So, you know, someone will come into a meeting and someone say, oh yeah, two sugars in my coffee dear, make it quick. And so what I... And you say, I'm a dame, step aside, sir. I am a dame. Well, I don't know why you don't say it. Well, actually, what I like to do is I like to get the coffee.

There's your two sugars. Now, I'm dame, Dr. Maggie. Let's start this meeting. Oh, brilliant. And so, because I don't want to belittle people, but I just want to try and re-educate. break the stereotypes. I think that's the goal. Yeah, let's talk about space and particularly, I mean, there's a part in the book where you explain the James Webb Telescope. Oh, yes. I mean, there's so much detail in this book. I wish we had more time. But just explain why that is so significant. Yes. So the James Webb Space Telescope, largest space telescope ever built. So its primary mirror, the light gathering part of the telescope is six and a half meters in diameter.

That's big. Yeah, it is. And it was quite challenging getting up into space. We had to use origami. But it is an infrared telescope. So it's looking at it. heat energy. Now, we all know about the Hubble telescope that's been taking glorious images for over 30 years, but the visible light doesn't always pass through clouds of dust and gas and things like that, whereas infrared light can. And so James Webb can peer into places where Hubble couldn't. Right. Also, because it's a bigger mirror because it's an infrared telescope, so it has longer wavelength, but also because it's such a big mirror, it can look back and look at very faint light. So it's gazing back to the early universe. It's gazing right out. there. It's the thing that is gazing as far away as we've ever gazed. Yes. And far back in time,

because it takes light a finite time or infrared light, a finite time to get to us. We are looking at things that happen soon after the birth of the universe. And so this is a glorious thing to do. So it gives us an understanding of the origins of our whole universe by looking at how the first galaxies formed, how the first stars formed. And yes, and how we came into being, really. And your lunacy, your obsession with the moon, when did you first realise that you could make a career out of this, Maggie? So my love of me and came through my father, because it was his friend in Nigeria, helped him sort of guise his way home. And also, growing up, I was always fascinated by the stars. And I used to run to the top of the flat in Hampstead and look out.

And you can't often see the stars because it's cloudy in London, but you can see the moon. So the moon, yes, that's sort of where it started coming in. And then when I heard about sort of the moon landings and things like that, and now with Artemis we're going back to the moon, hopefully getting the first woman there. Yes. Person of a different ethnicity, person called Maggie. I'm hopeful. Well, you never know.

Think big, think crazy, I see. And so I think it started with that, first with my father, then sort of seeing the moon when I couldn't see the stars, and then sort of building my own little telescope as a child as a 14-year-old. You went on to finally complete that telescope, but it was years later. Because it took me through university. So I started when I was 14 and sort of got the basics together. Then when I went to Imperial, I went back in over the summer holidays and they helped me sort of construct a housing for it.

And then by the third year, I was actually looking at the optics in more detail. And so it's a great career path for my future career in space science. And for anyone listening to this, I think, is it worth me getting a telescope? Does it matter where in the country you live? How much should you pay? Oh, oh. And so there are a few things there. One of the things I say, when people often think, oh, to look at the stars, I need a telescope,

often what I use is a pair of astronomical binoculars. Telescapes are quite complicated to set up. And sort of you've got a clear night and it takes a little time to set up. Astronomical binoculars are just sort of standard binoculars, but they have a really big aperture because they're trying to gather in more light. And these, they sit on the shelf, you see it's a clear night, you just grab them, run outside. They're not as powerful in terms of magnification as a big. telescope, but you can see a lot more and a lot quicker. So that's what I generally recommend to

people. I should say the listeners are loving this. David says the sheer joy and happiness is wonderful. Things can't be that bad with Dame Maggie when she's around. Michael, Dame Maggie is awesome, a brilliant mind who can convey her enthusiasm so wonderfully. And Selena, Dame Maggie, Dr Maggie is brilliant. I love her enthusiasm. You do have this remarkable ability to convey that enthusiasm, which actually not that many people have. But you know that. That's why you've been such a success. So did you mention the price of these bit of kit? So you can probably get them 50 to sort of 50 to 70 pounds. Oh, okay. Yes. I thought you were going to say thousands. Oh no, no, no. See, nice entry level. And then if you really get the bug, then I think go on to a

telescope. But start with astronomical binoculars. So Artemis, my understanding is that the wet dress rehearsal, there was one a couple of weeks ago. I think it's on for tomorrow, the second one. It is. Yes. Right. Now, what does this mean? Yes. So what they've done is they're having some difficulty with the fuel pipes. And so what they're doing is because Artemis is the first

crude mission to the moon. They're not landing on the moon, but it's for over 50 years and it's new technology. So they have to do a wet rehearsal. So fuel up, make sure that everything's working, no bugs or glitches. And then at the next launch window

I think starts on the 6th of March. So they're running up to that. And yeah, we're doing a podcast associated with this. Actually looking at Artemis and the people behind it with Tim Peake. Yes. And a science reporter from CNN. And just looking behind the scenes and giving everybody the insight to what's going on. Is it, eventually they do hope to land, don't you?

Oh, yes. So this is Artemis 2. So Artemis 1 was just uncrewed. I think Sean the Sheep, a model of Sean the Sheep went out. I was very jealous. Artemis 2, they're going to go in orbit around the moon and come back. but they're going to go further than any human has been from the earth, which is quite exciting.

But Artemis 3 is the one I want to go on. And they will actually land on the moon's surface, hopefully get the first woman to the moon. Yeah, I mean, does it, I know, look, I want there to be a woman on the moon. It would be great if it was you. We can't rule out that possibility either. Can we rule it out? You've mentioned it several times.

I know, I know. I keep on getting it out then. Just in the hotel. Nice one. Hey, Maggie, come on. I don't know, maybe be too enthusiastic for a small. a small setting in space. You can imagine me pinging around in there.

Well, there is that. I mean, actually, that's a serious question. Could you cope, do you think? Would you be psychologically able to do that? I think so. I have dyslexia, which I definitely see as my superpower. Yeah. And ADHD, which means I'm quite buzzing.

But at the same time, I think I can find that sort of Zen-like calm. And a moment like that is... And I think when people go into space and they look back at Earth and travel towards the moon, I think it changes your perspective. I know. I mean, if it doesn't change your perspective, that you really are an idiot. Surely it would. There was an alarming headline earlier this week.

Asteroid Armageddon. Earth has no way to deflect 15,000 space rocks that could take out a city, says NASA. Is that true? So it's true that these are called near-ear-earth objects. And we have telescopes across the world. and collaboration between lots of different space agencies looking out for these large asteroids. We call them sort of city smashes.

These are the large ones that could take out a city. There was a mission called a Dart, which actually went to one of these and deflected it. So we have technology that can do that, but we need to make sure the funding is in place that we can keep these things operational and deploy quickly. And I think that's the fear.

Right. Under Donald Trump, what's happened with funding? Funding, I haven't got the details. But I think he's very focused on the moon. Artemis, I believe, was his idea. Right. And you can understand why it is a sort of an epic moment. Oh, sure. Yes.

But I think funding in other areas may be pillaged, maybe, is a good word. And to focus on the moon. And so we need to make sure we keep funding across the board, especially for things like this, so that we have the means of deploying rockets to deflect the asteroids and protect planet Earth. Yes, I've got to say, you haven't entirely eased my fears there. He basically said, well, yes, that's right. But we're keeping an eye out, and that's the key.

That is reassuring. Right, and the other big space story of the week was about President Obama saying on a podcast that, you know, okay, he didn't think there were any aliens at Area 51, and he hasn't seen any aliens. But on the other hand, he thinks they probably do exist. Oh, yes. And he's right. Oh, yes, yes.

I did the Christmas lectures last year for the 200th anniversary, and the title was, you know, life beyond the earth. And the thing is, it is hubris, and we are very good at that as humans to think there is no life beyond. I mentioned sort of the Hubble Space Telescape. We live in a galaxy that contains 300 billion stars. Our local star is the sun, and we're finding planets going around those stars. But one of the things Hubble discovered is that in the whole of the universe, there are about 200 billion galaxies. Why would life just occur here?

I always say, there was an article I did recently, it said, you know, who owns space? I think it's like two atoms in our less toes saying, oh, we're sentient now, we own this human body. It's crazy. I mean, space is vast, and I'm sure there's life out there. But space is also, the distance between our local star and the next door neighbor's neighbor's neighbor is 400 trillion kilometers. If we use current technology to travel there, it will take 76,000 years. So even if there's life out there, they might not be able to find us, but I'm convinced they're like, I'm with Obama. Always with Obama.

Brilliant. Look, it's been brilliant to have you on the program. I can't tell you how many people have just said, I just love listening to this lady. So thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. That is Dame Maggie Adairn. And her memoir is really interesting actually

because it's a mixture of deep space. And I would say, I mean, reflections on what come across to me as a really challenging childhood that she possibly hasn't been able to think about much until she came to write the memoir. And I was really quite impressed by the fact that she has, throughout her life, just roll with the punches

and doesn't seem to feel bitterness about what I think many people would feel bitterness. Not just about the racism she's had to put up with, but just about, I don't know, I mean, my childhood, and obviously it's only my own experience, I went to two schools and I lived in two houses. Now, that's, and I found the change of houses.

quite challenging even though I was only, you know, I was 10. And you, Maggie went to 13 different schools. I mean, that's going to make a difference, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And she lived in all sorts of places. She went to boarding school. You know, that's a lot, I think. It's unsettling enough as it is being a child and a teenager

and going through all those changes just within you, let alone all of those external changes too. Yeah, no, I think she doesn't make much of it. And I don't know, maybe that makes you more, adaptable and you're much better with change in your adult life just because you had so much of it early on. I don't know. Really interested to get your views on this. But the book is out now. It's called Star Child, My Life Under the Night Sky. Now, we'll be back tomorrow and our guest then is Felicity Specter and she is reflecting on, well, her experience of food and Ukraine. And if that doesn't make much sense,

it will tomorrow, trust me. That's then. You can email in. Please do. Take part in the conversation. It's Jane and Fee at times. Radio. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

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