Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I love a Tuesday - with Alex Edelman

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

Jane and Fi chat flexitarians, maternity leave and what is the best day to go to the theatre….They're also joined by American comedian Alex Edelman on his latest show ‘Just For Us’.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Erin CarneyTimes Radio Producer: Kate LeePodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So it was a busy old show today, wasn't it, Jen? I felt a bit exhausted by it. We had everything from the King's Wind. I think we did very well not to have any slightly puerile comments off the back of a long piece about King Charles' Wind. Actually, can you be honest with me? I'm having a conversation with myself. Could you spot a wind farm? Yes. They are what I think they are.

Yes, with the great big turbines. What do you think they might be? Well, because I've seen them inland and then, so just off Crosby Beach, where I go quite a lot because it's near where my folks are, there is a huge, well, there are loads of wind farms around that stretch of the Merseyside coast. Yeah.

They are definitely wind farms, I'm just checking. I mean, they certainly look like they are. What might they be if they weren't wind farms? Well, the beginning of a very stealthy alien invasion, which just seems to have taken root in the seabed. Or more art. We ended up having a conversation about that that was really fascinating with a guy from a think tank called Commonwealth. And it's just about who owns, who knew? I didn't know

that you could own a bit of the seabed. No. I suppose it's stupid of me. Well, I didn't know that you could sell so much of our seabed. So he was explaining that a massively high percentage of the wind farms around our coast are owned by other states, notably the Nordic states. But we don't own any of theirs. It just is a bit strange. Interestingly, I think a lot of foreign governments

also have quite large stakes in some of our privatised rail companies. Well, they do. China has quite a lot of stake everywhere. It's quite odd that we just seem to have accepted all this. Well, I think the fault lies with journalists doesn't it what i can't believe i thought journalists were to blame i mean so although it might sound magnificently kind of curious and meerkat like on our program for both of us to ask uh you know surprised questions about wind farms it's quite shocking that we haven't thought to ask those questions before well it is um i remember a time I think at the beginning of the 21st century,

when the state of Iceland had become excessively rich and was buying loads and loads of British businesses. And every single time it happened, either me or my then colleague Peter Allen would say, why are Iceland, how are Iceland doing this? And they just were, and then it all went belly up. Well, it did because their banking system crashed, didn't it? Because it put a lot of money into it. For a time, they were absolutely swimming in dosh. Well, I mean, this is the kind of geopolitical chat that everyone has tuned in for, Jane.

It's award-winning. I'd like to pursue both of those topics, though, so we will do, and we'll do it quite seriously over the weeks to come. We were joined by the wonderful Jane Mulkerran's associate editor of the Times magazine today she's had a very very busy week she's been off to Ireland and that story will be in next week's magazine all about the lives of some Ukrainian refugees who were taken in over there a year ago but today she gave us a sneak peek into the magazine you can get tomorrow. It's not tomorrow, is it? The magazine that you can get on Saturday.

Since we last spoke, because you were here being the Jane on Monday. Jane on tap. You have been to Ireland and back. I have. The feature, when will that be published? That will be published very quickly. That's going to be a week on Saturday's magazine. So when I'm here next Thursday, we can talk about it yeah it's about ukrainian refugees it is yes about um in ireland um in a hotel which has been taken over um as a residence for ukrainian

refugees in a very small village in rural connemara it's sort sort of like Ballyciss Angel with refugees, yeah. How many refugees has Ireland taken? Almost 80,000. Right, which is... Is that about the same as... It's about the same as here. But, of course, it's a smaller country. Yes, there's 5 million people in Ireland as opposed to 70 million. So, yes, proportionately, it's a lot higher. Yeah.

And they are struggling to house them now. They are appealing to people who have, you know, second homes and holiday homes and stuff because they are running to house them now they are appealing to people who have second homes and holiday homes and stuff because they are running out of space or they've run out of space they're accommodating people in sports stadiums and stuff so it's yeah Ireland has done a very good job of hosting

but it doesn't have unlimited resources I mean nowhere does so we'll look forward to reading all about that in next week's magazine but in this week's magazine my my unlimited resources i mean nowhere does no so we'll look forward to reading all about that in next week's magazine but in this week's magazine my my it's packed it's a bumper issue isn't it you've got a fantastic interview with helena bonham carter uh interviewed by caitlin moran uh she reveals that she's got a graphologist i love that but she runs every potential date past not just her graphologist, but also her aunt and the nannies.

Plural, plural nannies. Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean? Runs every date. So if she's got an important event to do. She gets the handwriting analysed. No, a love interest.

Yeah. Or a love interest. Yeah, she'll get a love interest to write her a note and then she runs it past all of these people, including the graphologist, who has quite often said, don't go near them with the barge pole. And she does anyway, as she reveals in the interview.

It's not very spontaneous as a way of dating, but, you know, due diligence. It's served her well. I think she has a younger man in attendance at the moment. She definitely does. Apparently he's had his handwriting analysed and he got in. Well, she's doing something right. If that's what you're into. I have to say, it's a brilliant interview.

And if you ever wanted to go on a muddy walk of an afternoon with Catlin Moran and Helena Bonham Carter, this is basically what you can do in this interview. Well, I don't want to give it away, but basically, Catlin very cleverly makes the point that Helena is always talked of as wildly eccentric and deeply peculiar. And in fact, she's simply a lively, highly intelligent middle-aged woman. Yes.

Who is, by the way, I've interviewed her years ago. She's the most beautiful, most beautiful woman. She has the most extraordinary skin. She really does. I popped along to the shoot, which is our cover image, and she just looks extraordinary. She's so beautiful. Her bone structure, her skin.

Yes. She's, as we say, younger man. She's doing something right. And she's got very interesting things to say about getting through your teenage years and trying to find your own style as well. Yes, absolutely. And just the fantastic detail about why she doesn't wear jeans. And I will just leave that hanging

because we don't have to tell everybody everything. No, we want them to read the magazine. I think you've got some other cracking articles in here, including some interviews with young men who are followers and likers of Andrew Tate. Yeah, I think since Andrew Tate was arrested at the end of December, there's obviously been a huge amount written

and discussed about him and about the misogyny that he punts on social media. And I think it's very easy, obviously, to condemn it, but it's also very easy to look away and not really read or listen to anything that he said. And I think that's really dangerous. I think, you know, that can lead to echo chambers. And as a magazine, mean we interviewed andrew tate last september which was potentially quite controversial because um many people you know quite rightly condemn what he's saying and what he's preaching but it's also your 14 year old son knows who he is and knows what he's saying so i think uh i think as times readers and potential parents of those teenagers,

you know, you need to know who this man is too. And I think lots of people didn't before his arrest. My dad asked me over Christmas, who's Andrew Tate? Because he didn't know. So in the magazine, we have talked to young men who have attended Hustler's University, which obviously isn't a real bricks and mortar university. It's these online courses that he runs.

And, you know, they say a lot about why they are attracted to the sort of thing that andrew tate is preaching which i think we need to understand to know why this man gets 500 million views on youtube so one of the boys that you've spoken to i mean he's a young man uh ellis calmeni who's 19 he's from romford he describes himself as a boxer. He's got 200,000 TikTok followers himself. He says if you watch Andrew Tate in context, you'll see he's got a lot of respect for women. His girlfriend has said that he's a respectable man

and I think his arrest is unjustified. It's made him even more famous. I actually can't dispute the last comment. No, that's a worry, isn't it? Yeah. I was talking to a teacher the other day, actually. He said that they are having assemblies in their school about Andrew Tate and about how wrong he is

about just about everything. And these assemblies are being filmed by some of the pupils and then the footage is sent towards Andrew Tate. I imagine he doesn't receive very much at the moment, but they are letting him know just how important he's become. So he is now someone that has to be warned about in British school assemblies, which you imagine if you're inside Andrew Tate's head,

it's probably not a bad thing. He's probably delighted. But I was just so heartened, Jane, to see all of these first-person experiences from young from young men because of course if you just tell someone that they're wrong they're just going to go and find more reasons why they're right especially when they're that age that's that's what you do isn't it yeah i think we have to ask them why we have to listen to them yeah and there's a reason for this popularity absolutely what void he's filling yep another thing that I did like

the trends that need to end in 2023 including meal box services flexitarianism I did agree with Ben on this I think

I think it's just lacking commitment to anything isn't it it's just nonsense I'll go on then I'll have some meat I'll go on then

and foraging as well I mean maybe we could get Hannah Hannah to talk about this when she's on in a while I think I think foraging who really does foraging well there's I mean, maybe we could get Hannah to talk about this when she's on in a while. I think foraging, who really does foraging? Well, there's a picture of David Beckham foraging in the magazine.

I've seen it. Is he foraging or just looking for his dignity? I don't know. Oh, Jane, harsh judgement. That was Jane Mulkerrins, who is Associate Editor of The Times magazine, which you'll find with your copy of The Times every Saturday. Now, on our Times radio show yesterday, we talked to a football fan, Katie Price, who is a big fan of Arsenal, and she'd been

on the receiving end of some very unpleasant anti-Semitic abuse when she was in a pub in North London watching the Arsenal Spurs game over the course of last weekend. And it is an unfortunate truth that anti-Semitic incidents do seem to be on the rise in Britain, on British university campuses, apparently, and also in the States. The US has seen more anti-Semitic incidents between 2018 and 2020 than at any time in the last 40 years. Now, Alex Edelman is a comedian and his latest show, Just For Us, is sort of an attempt to try to explore why. He's a stand-up comedian. He won the 2014 Edinburgh Fringe Newcomer Award. He's in London doing a show called Just For Us

until the end of February. Now, the premise of Just For Us is that Alex decided to go and spend an evening with people who call themselves white nationalists. And we asked him if he'd just like to explain why he made that decision. I mean, not really, because it's the show, but I will. Give us a little tease.

She's paid for a ticket, Alex. Come on. Yeah, no, no. Yeah, don't give it all away. The tease is that I saw something on social media and so I went to this this this thing said, if you're if you're if you have questions about your whiteness, then come to this place at this time. And I went and there was a group of people who was who had broadly termed to be somewhere between white nationalists and the semites. You know, I don't want to label anybody. But but so yeah so i i went and uh and i sat there and that's sort of it's sort of a uh that anecdote is sort of the backbone of a show that more closely examines like you know uh

white nationalism but assimilation more than anything else the the way that we all of us not just jews the way that all you know that all of us, not just Jews, the way that all, you know, that all of us present ourselves and represent ourselves and feel about how we have to, you know, fit in to various groups. And so I think people are surprised and they find, obviously the show has found resonance with Jewish communities in New York and DC and, and, and here in London, but, but people who are not Jewish, um, they have been, you know, they resonated with it as well. And and the show did very well in Edinburgh in front of largely almost exclusively non-Jewish audiences. And, you know, the show is it's a comedy show. So, you know.

So at the heart of a lot of your comedy seems to lie an ability to really take the mickey out of your family, Alex. And some of it really, you know, it is it is spot on. How tell us a little bit about your dad, an extremely intelligent man, but not not in the eyes of your mum. I think that's so. Yes. I think. Oh, that's so. Yes. Yeah. Well, my dad is a very my dad's professor and academic and esteemed researcher in Boston. He's a cardiologist and a biomedical engineer. And I say to my mother, he's the dumbest piece of trash he's ever lived. But hang on. Your mom is a clever woman. She's a lawyer, isn't she? Yes. My mom's a lawyer. But it doesn't matter how clever how clever my dad is to my mom. He's just an idiot. And so that's not in this show.

But I've talked about it on television quite a bit. And people sometimes sometimes come up to my father in synagogue or at work and say, oh, I heard the bit about your wife thinking you're a moron. And it's it's become my father handles it with a great amount of grace. He's a very graceful guy. But do you know what, I mean, I don't want to make something incredibly kind of turgid and serious out of out of your comedy, Alex. But, but it's such a thing, isn't it? If I'm not sure that you could twist that around. I mean, it works, doesn't it? That your mum kind of belittles your dad. And he's this amazing heart surgeon, he almost won the Nobel Peace Prize. And and you know i think it taps into a kind of comedic belittling of men but if you flip that around you know that

it is no longer acceptable to have a comedic belittling of women is it i mean i've thought of doing it that way so i mean my my mother though i make fun of my mother though, I make fun of my mother for shortcomings. But no, a comedic belittling. Yeah, I don't know whether it would work. I'm just asking a genuine question. I'm not making a kind of judgment about it. I think you can, you know, not to get too into the nitty gritty, although this is one of my favorite subjects,

the vicissitudes of how you make a joke about a difficult topic. I could make a joke about my mother, provided I made it clear to an audience that I was representing an individual instead of a collective. So you could, but you'd have to adjust for how society treats and thinks about women. And just the same way you adjust for a society treats and thinks about men, and just the same way you adjust for a society treats and thinks about men, you'd be shocked by how many, you know, what people would deem to be social pitfalls are avoided by inserting one or two clauses into a sentence in a joke. And so sometimes people say, you can't joke about this anymore.

You're going to offend people with this. And in the back of my mind, if I'm being honest, whenever I see a comedian offending people, I honestly feel like it's mostly a craft failing on the part of the comedian. There are exceptions to the rule, but most of the time I go, ah, you could have used this four word clause there. Cause I've used that in the past to avoid offending people. Go on. What's your favorite four word clause? No, I'm not. Everyone is different. I'm just saying that all you need to do is make it clear that you are making fun of one person instead of a large group of people. But you know what? A four-word clause, how about this, is in my personal experience.

Okay. That's a good four-word clause. And then no one can accuse you of generalizing. Like there are so many different ways to get a joke across without, you know, without making people feel belittled. And I do think that my generation of comedians in particular is much more is very conscious of that. We are chatting today to the American Jewish comedian Alex Edelman about his latest show on in London until the end of February called Just For Us. Now, I asked Alex how he sets the tone and how he just actually struts on stage and how does he decide what he's going to say first? You know, that's so interesting. No one's ever asked me about that. But I think if I had to guess, it's no, no, that's no, that's not I really am.

You know, if I had to guess, it's that first of all, I think a lot of the stuff that you've seen is me being on television. And so for me, sometimes it's on a talk show in America. And for me, those talk shows are very big deals growing up. those talk shows were very big deals growing up. And so not to give too much away, but I am quite nervous sometimes when I'm doing those talk shows, when you're performing in front of your favorite comedians. And in the case of Stephen Colbert and Conan O'Brien, comedians that I grew up idolizing and are some of the reasons I was comedians. And on those TV shows, they're right there. They're sitting over your right shoulder. And so when I say gosh or wow, I think it's me partially acknowledging how crazy it is for me to be doing it and how wonderful the experience is. And obviously the flip side of being nervous is being excited. And so

all I can remember, the primary emotion that I remember from performing on those shows, including like Live at the Apollo, is a you know, is a feeling of excitement. I am ultimately a comedy fan also. So I think people forget this sometimes about comedians, but it is really cool to do the job that, you know, that most of us loved when we were children. I always want to be a comedian. I have the chance to do it now. It's just a really, really salubrious gig. It's such a high stakes career, though, isn't it?

With so much kind of jeopardy involved. Do you have a plan? Do you set yourself targets? What's on the horizon? Well, the show that I'm doing now has been, you know, a wonderful experience in the sense that it's just run and run, and there are offers to do it in many other places. And I won't do it forever. I think the show will be done sort of by the end of this year, beginning of next. It will be in London for a while here, and then it will go to Boston, my hometown, eventually.

And then it will go back to New York York and it'll be filmed as a special. And, uh, and I have some television work lined up and I'm writing a film. And, and so there is no, I guess, plan. I, all this is just a hobby that got out of hand, like, uh, winning that, that newcomer prize in Edinburgh turned me from, you know, a waiter and bad restaurants in New York into a full-time comedian, and that was 2014. And I've always, thank God, never had to look for work outside of comedy beyond that and make a very wonderful living doing the thing that I love. It's an extreme privilege. All this, and we have still to mention your brother's Olympic career as a...

Now, is it a bobsleigh or a skeleton uh he's he's doing bobsleigh now yes and he represents israel doesn't he we should say yes i i joke i i joke that my nickname for him is shul runnings oh very good which is yeah shul means synagogue in yiddish it's my best work and um and yeah aj aj represented israel inleton in the 2018 Winter Olympics and fell just short of qualifying for 2022. We were so gutted. They cut two spots because of covid and he would have been in the first of the two spots. So very sad. But but yeah, AJ is I'm the least impressive member of my family. I always tell folks and it's true. My mother, my father, my two brothers are all, you know, lavishly accomplished in their various non-entertainment fields. And so I'm sort of.

Now, do they envy your freedom? Oh, no. I mean, I think they realize how I think they realize how isolating it can be. how isolating it can be. Look, I love London, but I'm in a pokey flat near the river for a few months while I do my show

and it's a dream come true, but also I miss my bed in Los Angeles. So there's a flip side to that isolation. Can I just say, it's a beautiful day in London today.

It's cold, admittedly, but the sun is shining, the sky is blue, you are a lucky, lucky man. It is so, admittedly, but the sun is shining. The sky is blue. You are a lucky, lucky man. It is so cold. Yes, it is cold. Come on, get over it, man. I just wanted to know how quickly can you tell when you're doing this show or any other that this is a good show, that you're on form and actually, perhaps more importantly importantly sometimes that the crowd in the house are receptive do you know i sometimes uh sometimes the two are divorced i had a show the other night where this receptive but i was my tempo was a tiny bit off and so on those nights you sort of take

you sort of take uh what's you sort of play it as it lies, I guess. But but I know I know early on, Stuart Lee says he can tell from the sound of the audio going into the venue how they're going to be. And I can feel that sometimes, too. The funny thing is, if if an audience isn't giving you what you want, you never stop trying to get it out of them. So by the end of the show, at least you've tried and they can see you trying and you're doing, you know, you're doing your level best. And if the audience is with you, then you're just sort of riding along with them. So it's sort of a win-win situation if you've got a bit of a level headed outlook, but, but yeah, every audience can vary. The one thing that's important is my ex-girlfriend, Catherine Ryan, who's a brilliant standup comic here in the UK, liked to say that you have to let a bad show go by 10 o'clock at night or 10 o'clock the next morning.

And so I sort of try to live my life by that dictum. If it's a bad show, I mope for a few hours and then by 10 o'clock I let it go. Have you got a lucky night? Is Tuesday better than Wednesday? That's a good one. Wednesday not as good as Thursday? I love a Tuesday show. You know why? It's not quite Monday, but it's not quite Wednesday.

I like Tuesdays. Tuesdays for me are a lot of fun. And also I'm always in a good mood on a Tuesday because most comedians do either Thursday to Saturday or Wednesday to Sunday, or sometimes Thursday to Monday in the States. So for me to be performing on a Tuesday as a reminder that I have work and it's not a time that most comedians get to work, it's usually a day off for comedians. And so for me, it's a privilege to be able to perform on Tuesday. I know that sounds

so stupid, but it is a thousandth century. We're all a little bit eccentric, Alex, and I certainly put you in the category of really quite eccentric. That was the American comic Alex Edelman reflecting on how Tuesday is a good day for him to work. I'm seeing him on Thursday. Oh, well, it won't be any good, will it? Well, no. No, it should be all right,

but he's just not going to be enjoying it as much. It's funny because a comedy show is in a theatre, but it isn't theatre, is it? And if I'm honest, I think, oh gosh, I'm going to see a Shakespeare production next week. Or you can compare notes. Well, although I'm absolutely delighted to be able to say that I'm going,

I think I probably speak for every single person who'll be in that audience that I'll be even more excited when it's over. No, you see, lots of people really love it. Don't go if you don't like it. Because I think when I'm in the moment, it's just that Shakespeare, I hope it'll probably be a truncated version. Why don't you just go and see comedy?

Just the hits. Yeah. Othello. How quick can that be? Yes, you see, I have to say I've had some of my best bonding moments with people on the planet when you know we've both been able to admit that we don't want to go and sit at the donmar warehouse nothing against the donmar warehouse because lots of other people absolutely

love it but you can't like everything and uh it's not for me right uh this one's from sandra who says still loving the show well done sandra that's the kind of spirit we like. Love listening to your podcast before I go to bed each night. I don't fall asleep. Well, I mean, that's kind of the point, Sandra, so we wouldn't mind if you did. Your guests have been great this week. I love Griefcast, so hearing your interview with Cariad was fascinating on Monday.

Her views on Harry's book certainly shine a different light on the whole thing. I thought so too, Sandra. I thought she was very profound about that, actually. Fred's views on French food have really inspired me to write in. As I live in France, a small village called Marciac, renowned for its international jazz festival in between Toulouse and Lourdes.

This area totally fulfils Fee's ideas of French eating. This area is well known for duck confit, breast and fat. Oh, I don't like duck confit. It's weird, isn't it? It is just meat and fat. I find that a very claggy culinary possibility. If you go out trying to find anything veggie, it's almost impossible.

Now, you see, Fred denied this, but we knew it to be true, Sandra. Chips are cooked in duck fat, lardons are added to veg, and if you admit to being a veggie, they think you're ill and then offer you chicken. You can find meat substitutes in the supermarket, but restaurants are way behind. Sandra adds, I hope your parents are OK, Jane.

My husband has recently become a wheelchair user, which has totally opened our eyes to accessibility, as you mentioned. Steps are a nightmare, and our village has installed pretty road crossings using cobbles, which are difficult to roll over and really uncomfortable. It's definitely something you don't think about until you have to. Well, Sandra, I really hope that your husband's OK. I hope you're both coping with that. And yes, take a little bag of salt out with you.

It'll help with the food, but it'll also help with the slippy roads too. Yeah, it is true that it's only when you're in that situation, and I feel for you, and I hope your husband is all right, Sandra, but you just see danger wherever you go. And it's just the pavements, I mean, it's a generalisation, but the pavements in Britain are not in a terrific state. I tell you what, they're a lot better than they are in lots of other parts of the world.

Yeah. I think sometimes our pavements show us in the very best light, Jane. Really? Some of them have been levelled up. Oh, God. One day you'll laugh openly and joyfully. Not when you make jokes like that, I won't. It'll be time for me to go.

Yes, certainly. Right, do you want to do the very long email? Well, this is from a listener who wants to respond to the interview with Jason Watkins. And they say that they had their first baby in March of last year. When he was three weeks old, he ended up in hospital for ten days

to recover from urosepsis as a result of a UTI. Somehow in my sleep-deprived state in the middle of the night, I sensed something wasn't right when he was pushing my breasts away. He usually couldn't get enough of them, and his cries seemed weaker but more distressed than usual. We rang the equivalent of 911, and after describing his symptoms to a nurse,

she quickly arranged for an ambulance to take us to the Royal North Shore Hospital. Now, this is in Sydney, isn't it? Which, to take us to the Royal North Shore Hospital. Now, this is in Sydney, isn't it? Which fortunately was just a 10 minute drive away. Henry was cared for by a brilliant team of doctors who identified and treated the UTI and sepsis. And even now, I can't quite bring myself to acknowledge that if we'd taken longer to get him to hospital, he might not have made it. Unfortunately eight months later we went through the experience again with another case of urosepsis and after advice from a urologist we've decided to get him circumcised to help prevent another visit to A&E. Right now there's a lot there of sort of medical wise that I'm not equipped to comment on and don't fully understand. And I certainly didn't know that circumcision

might prevent a UTI, which I think is what the email is saying. But I mean, obviously you've been there and experienced that horrendous experience. So you know more about it than I do. But how wonderful that the hospital staff were able to react so quickly and that Henry is okay.

But thank you very much for telling us about it. And there's a lovely final paragraph as well. And we really love a very long email. That's from Julia, by the way. Yep. We love a long email. Don't ever feel that you have to cut it down. Tell us everything that you want to tell us. If you're ever looking for topics to cover, says Julia,

I'd be very interested to hear your perspectives on whether working part-time after returning from maternity leave is a career dead end. I'm about to return to my job as a lawyer at a suit style international law firm three days a week and I listened to a rather depressing podcast the other day that essentially said just that. The women on the podcast also said that if you have a partner with a demanding job getting back on the career bandwagon in a serious way will be even harder. My partner is a barrister, the wig and robe kind, which definitely falls into the demanding job category. Right now, I don't feel particularly ambitious career-wise, and I'm mostly just hoping

I can remember my login passwords. Not a chance. But I'd like to think that if and when the appetite comes back, that door isn't closed. I'd be interested to hear how you've navigated mingling work and family life and any advice you might give your 32 year old selves with the benefit of hindsight. Well, I would say you've got to get that balance between you and your partner right. You've got to get that balance between you and your partner right. And if you don't feel it's right for you to be the one that takes a bit of a back seat for a while, then I would say if there's a way to work it better for both of you, you know, so the seesaw is balanced, then that's a good thing to do. And also, I honestly don't know your profession well enough

to give any advice on going back part-time and then hoping further down the on going back part-time and then hoping further down the line to become full-time I think in broadcasting we're quite lucky really lucky yeah as a presenter you are not sure about production staff no but I think even as production staff it can be easier to get work on a program you know as opposed to working full time across a variety of programmes. Certainly quite a lot of my freelance producer friends have made series during their early childcare years.

So they've worked on producing 16 podcasts or going to do something for Radio 4. So other stations are available and obviously Times Radio now. So I think that's made it easier. And certainly I was incapable of going back to work full time. Actually, after I'd had my second child, I don't really mind admitting that. I just felt I was juggling an awful lot. And the one thing that I didn't, I just didn't, I didn't want the family ball to drop.

So I think I cut down my work probably probably a bit too much, looking back on it. But at the time it felt right. So that's the only advice I can give, really. Your career has suffered because otherwise you wouldn't be sitting here now. Well, I want to answer this properly, Jane. No, go on. So I'm eternally grateful that I have now, you know, that I'm now doing this with you, that we did fortunately together, that other opportunities came up. You know, the Listening Project was great to do in the 10 years when I was largely at home with the kids.

I'm very grateful to all of that. If I could have stayed working a bit more, I would have done, but I just couldn't. if I could have stayed working a bit more I would have done but I just couldn't so I think I think the whole culture and I think I'm imagining that in the legal world world which is Julia's world presenteeism has got to be still a thing so being seen to be in the office strutting your stuff is probably much more significant than our presenting roles yeah I agree you could easily do a lot of prep at home. And frankly, you can waft in if you're relatively experienced half an hour before the programme and probably get away with it. I'm not saying it'll be the best thing you've ever done, but you can get away with it.

And I if my children were ill, when I was doing women's hour, I used to bring them in with me to work and it was just ignored or you know, people pretended they hadn't seen it. And I think, I'm not sure that would be possible, well, it isn't possible in 98% of jobs that women do. So I, but then you wonder whether the pandemic has changed the idea that in order to be taken seriously, you have to be in work all the hours, God sends. I don't know. I don't know either. And I think maybe that's just something

that our generation of women might be able to change a little bit. know either and I think maybe that's just something that our generation of women might be able to change a little bit the notion that if you largely leave work or you know kind of I don't know a grade work whatever you want to call it to look after your children when they're small then that is a dead end maybe it's on us to prove that you can spend some time with your kids and come back and you actually bring more to the party than before. But I think it's really, really difficult if you haven't got that balance right at home,

just between you and your partner. You know, I think there's so much resentment that can build up if one person streams ahead. And also it means that that parent doesn't really have any knowledge of what bringing up kids is actually like that is very important no i mean i well that's i could go on now yeah 750 page book which nobody would read but i'd enjoy getting out of my system um but i think it's also worth saying don't be hard on yourself if frankly you can't wait to get back to work or if you just find yourself really enjoying

yes sometime at home with small children, but also loving it precisely because you've got the alternative of, say, three days in the office to go alongside, because I think we all need a little bit of a little bit of both, if possible. That isn't to say that women and men who are full time carers for small kids don't actually do a brilliant job and may very well end up being hugely fulfilled and I would also hope much appreciated by partners and indeed in time by the children. Although the latter point I'm not so confident about. Waiting a very long time for that.

Juno, I don't think we've helped at all, but those are our experiences. But we feel better for having a chat about it. Yes, and it's well worth hearing from our other listeners about because they might be able to be slightly less verbose and a little bit more on the money. Do you really think? I do, Jane.

Yes. No. And by the way, thank you. It's fantastic to hear from people listening in Australia and New Zealand. I hope we have one or two listeners in the united kingdom as well but um there's just something still something quite exciting oh it's so glamorous it's really glamorous who are not in britain yeah britain is absolutely land of leveling up uh so have a wonderful weekend if such a thing is possible i've got someone around coming around tomorrow to look at my radiators

uh and we're hoping that it gets a little bit warmer next week. Yeah, have a lovely weekend when you get to it and we'll talk to you again on Monday. Bye. Bye. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts.

And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening, and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.