Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I think there's a benign lazy streak in me (with Michael Ball)

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Jane and Fi have come to the end of a jam-packed week, and need a quiet night in. But before that, they're talking about pet politics, hereditary laziness, and whether we should consider quietly quitting our jobs.Plus, they're joined by the one and only Michael Ball OBE, to talk about his memoir Different Aspects. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Megan McElroy Times Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh dear me. So I did laugh yesterday, Jane. Well that's unusual. Thank you. Just at the title of Off Air, because it was distracted by a couple of hippos having sex with Matt Jorley. Was that what it was called? Yes. It's weird, I haven't listened to yesterday's yet I just saw the title I thought, oh that's funny I think Matt had noticed it too

So just to reassure people That didn't happen There were two separate incidents involved there Yes, we need to make that very, very clear Let's not mention Matt's book Because barely a nanosecond goes by without him mentioning it. Flipping heck. It's annoyingly good, isn't it?

Now, rest assured that our big guest is Michael Ball and I think it's good because we've bookended the week with a couple of crackers. Shirley Ballas on Monday. We started with some Ballas and we ended with some Balls. Yes, indeed. From Ballas to Balls. some balls. Yes, indeed. From ballast to balls. Just really, really, really.

I need a quiet night in, Jane. You need this weekend. I do. Because we've been, so we've kind of rollicked our way around the country, haven't we? We were at Cheltenham on Monday and Tuesday. Can I just say, it's not over for me. I'm at the Beaudley Festival tomorrow night. Oh, where's Beaudley?

It's in Worcestershire. It's a beautiful town. Well, I admire you enormously for doing that because actually I did realise this week I just love my weeknight routines and going to Cheltenham was really good fun. We had a very nice time. But I've been so discombobulated

by it. I'm spinning today. I do sort of know what you mean. I think we're both in a very velvet rut, as they say. That's one of my favourite expressions, that. A velvet rut. Yeah, no, and it just means in a very happy, if unexciting place. Yep.

And I'm completely with you. I mean, I wouldn't say I always had my bath at around about 11 minutes past nine, but I pretty much do. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, if you came to see us at Cheltenham, it was lovely to meet you there. And if you didn't, well, make more of an effort next year. Come on. What's up with you?

I mean, reasonable transport links. This one comes in saying, Dear Finn, Jane, love your podcast. As a devoted long-time listener, I was surprised to see Fee's cat. Is it Brian? Yes, it was. And Nancy the dog getting along

perfectly on instagram i remember fee telling the story of their first meeting with the cats bolting through the locked cat flap we would love to get a puppy but are worried about our geriatric yet shrewd cat not reacting reasonably to a new addition to the household with sharp claws like dora that little puppy may not survive for long I would be grateful for any advice on this topic, says Felicitas. Well, can I say, I saw that too. And I don't know how, was that, what do you call that on Instagram, where it's just a short? I put it on my story.

I've never managed to do that before. Oh, well, I was impressed, but I didn't know what to do. And when I went back to react to it, I was going to send a heart. It had gone. I know. I don't really know how I did it. Okay, you don't know how you did it. But it was a very, very sweet little film

of them just getting on really well, which, as you said, everybody needs a bit of that at the moment. So, yes, more of that. What advice would you give? Well, that's a different cat. So when we first got Nancy the Greyhound, we had Cool Cat and Pinky Ponks.

Confusingly, Pinky Ponks was black and white and they were the ones who broke the cat flap going through it at such speed sadly Pinky Ponks are no longer with us and as my daughter reminded me yesterday it wasn't, the big news wasn't it was the first anniversary of us being at Times Tower

it was the first anniversary of Ponks death so we mourn his passing but he had a lovely life, so we don't dwell on it. But I think you don't think that you would be able to introduce another pet into your household because Dora's quite... I think territorial covers it, to be honest.

Yeah. She's not particularly friendly, and it's as though she is the youngest child, very much the youngest child key resident wouldn't i mean i'm saying all this i don't know also i'm very keenly aware that my life couldn't i couldn't fit in a dog no so although many ways i'd love one i just don't i couldn't see how it would work no fair enough and my advice would be um Felicitas, you see, Nance wasn't a puppy. So we got a middle-aged rescue dog. So the cats were already very much in situ. They were quite old themselves.

But quite an older dog came into their life. And Nancy was just kind of no bother. She acquiesced to them, if that's the right word, much more than they did to her. So it all worked out very well. And then Brian, who's the little word, much more than they did to her. So it all worked out very well. And then Brian, who's the little one in the loving story on Instagram, he's just a tiny kitten. So, you know, they came to her house with enormous nants.

So that's how it worked out. I wouldn't introduce a puppy to established cats. That actually would be my advice. I think the cats would hate that. Okay. Well, you couldn't have been clearer. Thank you. Thank you.

No, thank you. No, thank you. Now, yesterday we did debate. One of our correspondents was interested in whether people thought she should give up her role at work, which was making her feel a bit unwell. She was a manager. She had 100 people to look after. She got a good private pension that would allow her to carry on paying the mortgage. She also has a husband of 67. I'm trying to remember as many details. You're doing very well. Thank you very much. But she nevertheless enjoys her job and

she was worried that if she gave it up, she'd never find anything as challenging again. So there's quite a lot to weigh up. But basically, she was saying, should I pack it in? What do you think? And here is one interesting response from a listener who says I would urge her not to quit and this is a phrase I have heard before but to quietly quit instead to do this she needs to immediately stop doing anything other than the absolute bare minimum at work now Fee's looking at me now in a way that hints at the fact that she might be about to suggest that this is something I've always done. Well, no, I was thinking that if we were in a

cartoon at the moment, little light bulbs gone on just above my head. Our correspondent goes on, no extra hours, no interaction with work at all outside her core hours, say no to almost everything and delegate to her team. This is an opportunity for them to step up, decline meetings, leave emails unread, a complete change of mindset, firm boundaries. She's got sick pay entitlement and legitimate reason to use it. She should take it now and quietly quit on her return. Why should she lose her good salary when she can coast for a couple of years, all the while improving her financial position? I think she would find quiet quitting extremely empowering. What is the worst that could happen? She'll be asked to leave a job she wants to leave anyway. What's the problem? P.S. I'm assuming she has a corporate job. If she's a firefighter, surgeon or similar, please disregard my advice.

That's a good P.S. Brilliant. Thank you very much. I'd never thought of that. And I think that is winning, actually. A quiet critic. Yes, it might work. It might work.

I don't feel, frankly, that I'm in any way capable of offering advice on what I'd call the more traditional workplace, because you and I have only ever knocked around in radio stations. I know. So I think the telling point was the one that you made yesterday, that she's in charge of a hundred people. So I think quiet quitting, by the sounds of it, our original

correspondent was someone who'd taken on the stress of a lot of those people, and that was the bit that was making her ill. she might find quite quitting almost impossible to do but i think it's a great suggestion i'd not heard of the term before oh i had heard of it have you been doing it for years i thought that was what you were going to say no i wasn't i have um you know i guess i think people do fall into different camps with their approach to work. And I'm sure we've said this before, but at my school, you could do projects in the holidays and they were optional. I used to think, who the bloody hell wants to do that?

Why would you take on extra work? You know, I'd spend eight weeks or six weeks, whatever it was, just looking at smash hits and picking my feet. And you get people doing these really elaborate things that they drag into school in the second week of September. What? So I've always slightly carried that. There is a sort of benign lazy streak in me, I think,

which my sister and I were talking about this the other day and we think we've both got it. Oh, dear. Just, you know, slight, not bare minimum, but, you know, I do work hard now, oddly. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying you carry on, love. Let's move on to something else. Let's hear from Leslie.

She's got an absolutely delightful email about being single and what she did when she wanted to not be single anymore. She says, I was single and had been for seven years after my second divorce when in 2005 I signed up for an adventure holiday trekking in the foothills of the Himalayas. I was 38, but others in the group were aged from their mid-20s and one chap celebrated his 60th birthday on the trip. There were two couples, but the rest of the group of approximately 25 of us were single men and women. My reason for going was to get away from one disastrous relationship after another. I just needed a break.

I'd not tried online dating and just couldn't face it. There were several fab single men, and to be honest, I'd initially discounted my now husband as a potential love interest as he was just separated with two sons. But after having a truly life-changing time in Nepal, we found that we kept texting each other once we returned, and the rest is history. Five months later, friendship turned into romance, and he moved from near Brighton to North London to be with me. We were married in 2008. North London to be with me. We were married in 2008. You don't have to do something so adventurous but to be away from your usual environment and with the chance to start from scratch but within the safety of a group with a leader on an organised setup was ideal and the point I'm

making is to focus on something else rather than actively looking for love. To be away from home, judged just for yourself and with no running water but plenty of wet wipes, it actually might work. You're meeting real people in sometimes testing conditions where you need to work together so you see through any BS. Good luck to your listener and thank you if you read this. Best wishes. Well, Lesley, what an absolutely lovely story.

Really, really lovely story. And she goes on to say that her late aunt who had been single for 30 years plus with seven grown-up children met her second husband on a roman catholic pilgrimage they were engaged within a few weeks and were so happy for the last decades of her life oh that's also lovely yeah i really i think it's such good advice actually to get away from your usual environment and you can see people very clearly when they don't have all of the background themselves. And that can feel so daunting to leave your comfort zone and all of that. But everybody else is leaving theirs.

So you do stand quite a good chance of bonding with somebody over being nervous about being out of your comfort zone. So I'm just so glad that that worked out for you. So well done you, Leslie, and long met last. Anonymous has sent us an email entitled Ministers and Penises. Good. This does, I'm afraid, reference Matt Chorley again, but never mind. In response to your conversation with Matt Chorley,

and this was the conversation about how real people, most people are not that nerdy about politics, only know just enough, basically vote in general elections if they can find the time in their day and do it more or less on who the Prime Minister is going to be. But definitely can't name the Cabinet or the Shadow Cabinet. I wouldn't care to, you know, because they've got more going on.

This correspondent says, in response to that conversation, I am a civil servant. I've worked at the heart of government for over 20 years. I can only name about two and a half members of the shadow cabinet. However, that is okay. I could have picked most of the other names out if I helped with a list and people have so much going on in their lives. Is it any wonder they can't bring these names to mind, even if they do follow politics? Honestly, half the time I struggle to remember the names of the actual cabinet, including my own ministers, a consequence of the last couple of years of what we'll call interesting times in government, or perhaps a consequence of my current exhaustion. Let's seg seamlessly on from government ministers to another recent discussion about penises

and testicles and vaginas and vulvas. They are the words we use for body parts in my house. Children need to know there's nothing shameful or embarrassing about genitalia and need to be able to manage their body with confidence. Plus sometimes it brings an added bonus. Ahead of a government event a couple of years ago where families were allowed to come with us, my five-year-old daughter asked whether person X, a recently departed Prime Minister of the male variety, was going to be there, because if he was, she intended to kick him in the testicles. Alas, he was not coming, but upon retelling this to a senior official,

my daughter was rewarded with an extra dollop of ice cream. There's nothing more telling than that. No, quite a lot is revealed in that email. I've got your name, but don't you worry. You'll be safe with us. Actually, we can't repeat this often enough. If you have got something to offload, particularly something of that nature,

you can trust us. We are never going to use names, are we? No. No, it won't happen. Don't worry. Because basically that would be very bad karma because lots of people have got lots of stuff on us. Yes, yes. All the best, says Lucy and Devon. I once left a banana and two plums in a locked desk drawer one summer. I teach. It was six weeks. Suffice to say, the smell still haunts me. That's

the weird thing, Lucy, because I don't think my dead banana really smelt that much. No, I mean, when you saw it, you kind of wanted it to smell more than it did. Yeah, it didn't at all. Isn't life funny? Right, shall we get on to the ball? Yeah, just to say, the headline,

you know how weather-obsessed I am. Headline of the Times, from summer to winter in a week. And it is properly cold. I think it's gone from summer to winter in a week. And it is properly cold. I think it's gone from summer to winter in a day. It kind of feels that way, doesn't it? My youngest daughter is at university in the North East and the temperature there this weekend of England,

it is really, really cold. So I've texted her. Should be coming home then. Well, I've texted her to say, you know, it's pathetic that you still do this kind of thing. Have you got a vest? I mean, not quite that, but yes, you start to wonder about whether they've got enough jumpers.

Yeah. And is the duvet the right tog rating? Oh, I don't know. Oh, little angel. Teary me. Right. Do you want to cue the ball? Yes.

Our guest today was Michael Ball, OBE. Although, as he indicates at the end of the interview, he's very much hoping that OBE may be elevated at some point. Yeah, he wants an uplift. And how can it not be? I don't really need to tell you all that much about Michael Ball except to say he's been delighting

audiences in the West End and elsewhere for many, many years. He once sang on television alongside Dusty Bin. He's suffered from stage fright. He's represented the UK in the Eurovision Song Contest. The man has just about done everything and his memoir, Different

Aspects, has incredible anecdotes in it. It's rich in name-dropping. There's also quite a lot about flatulence. You will enjoy it, let me guarantee that much, particularly actually if you have a shred of interest in musicals and Western theatre and how it's all done so uh here is michael i can't remember for the life of me now where this ramble was going to end or how indeed the interview

started let him take over darling he wants to let's just plow on nice to see you really nice to see you you've got a job on your hands as you know to convert my colleague fiona here to the musical but if anyone can do it you can well what about you i love musicals oh good so i'm fine you know i'm not going to say to you am i i can't stand musicals she has i know but she so your memoir is called uh different aspects and i thought it was i was reading it last night and frankly i needed a book like yours last night with everything else going on in the world. It is a really rough whole time. Yeah. And what this does is it kind of bookends.

You've got different aspects of Aspects of Love. The first time you did it. Yeah, 1989. And then the most recent revival over the course of the summer. Now, I saw it this summer. Oh, what did you think? Well, you see, I came away hugely impressed by the performances and by the staging which i thought was incredible but the show itself as you well know has some

peculiar aspects it's it's a tricky show and i knew that going into it and it's what's interesting has been fascinating was the different take from 1989 to now and the things that were challenging then in the storyline that are not challenging now and the reverse, things that caused controversy this time around was not even looked at. But it is, I know, it's a tricky show. I know, when you acknowledge that in the book, I mean, you never pretend otherwise. 100%. And for me, it wasn't about that. I mean, I know it's a tricky show I know when you acknowledge that in the book I mean you never pretend otherwise

100% and for me it wasn't about that I mean I love it I'm fascinated by that group of people the Bloomsbury set and believe me

compared to what they actually got up to this is nothing this is nothing absolutely nothing we need to say Aspects of Love is based on a novella

by a man called David Garnett David Garnett I David Garnett. I'd not heard of the novella at all. He lived with... I was there last weekend at Charlton House with Vanessa Bell and Duncan Grinder. Okay, he was one of them.

He was one of them. And it was kind of... But when we did it originally, it was right after Andrew Lloyd Webber had written Phantom. I had huge success with Phantom. It's the big anticipated next show. And it sort of came out of left field. And it's not one of his giant hits.

And it's a challenge, which I really enjoy. Yeah. You played the young man first time round. And this time you played George, who played the young man first time around and this time you played george who is the older man and what happens in it is that um alex who's the young man falls for an actress called rose within about the first nanosecond of the production then they run off together and then later on rose falls for alex's uncle george. Alex obliges by beggaring off somewhere. Returns 13 years later and develops, well,

the young child produced by, keep up at the back, Rose and George, Jenny, falls for Alex. There's also a lesbian kid. Of course there is. Yeah, but I didn't understand why and I didn't, it sort of happened. Because it was in the book. Okay, okay. I think what the book explores is that kind of freedom

of sexuality, of relationships, that comes with a cost, actually. And so the ultimate libertine of all time, George, who is, you know, life goes on, love goes free, and feels no qualms about his wife having affairs and him having affairs and that he was in a relationship with his nephew and so on, is suddenly confronted with this problem of his daughter

falling and having feelings for his nephew who's who's who's that much older who's her cousin who's her cousin and and that's where it gets murky yeah and she was in the original only 13 yeah and in our original production she was 15 and aged to 16 and in this production we we agonized and we made her 18 and you know it of course it was it's a challenging watch it's wrapped up in this beautiful music but what but what was interesting for me I've been asked to write a memoir and a biography many times but to find myself in this pretty unique situation of having created the original production and created that role to find myself 34 years later at the age that I'm now George and to revisit it. 42. If only my lovely if only no I'm 61 so same ages as the original George was going to be, which was Roger Moore. And I thought, this is interesting.

This is kind of a way for me to craft a memoir, to craft my story, with these being the sort of central pivots. Because in 89, my world completely changed. Well, you became, and you're very self-deprecating throughout the book, actually, and you said you did very much become Michael Ball. That's Michael Ball. And, you know, diva-ish tendencies, which you own up to.

You insist, towards the end of the book, you acknowledge you insisted on your own toilet. I don't think that's a lot to ask. But it was no point me asking for my own toilet because Mel Smith used it anyway. This is hairspray. This is hairspray, you know, to devastating results. So you just wanted your own toilet just in the... Backstage. Backstage.

I think that's completely fair. Thank you. I was expecting something so much more. The only other thing I asked for is a packet of chocolate buttons. Yeah, well, that's fine. You should see her riding, Michael. I know, right? She's got chocolate buttons. Yeah, well, that's fine. You should see her riding, Michael. I know, right. She's got the look.

Yeah, they are ridiculous. Very briefly, back to Aspects of Love. The reviews this time round in the summer were, well, some of them acknowledged exactly my own view, which was how wonderful and professional and particularly the staging of it was amazing. Great. But it was the plot.

It was the show itself, which I think The Guardian described as preposterous Yeah, but it's not if you actually look at what was going on at the time I suppose making it into a musical is an interesting thing to do I knew all this going into it this was just

something that I felt would be interesting to do and we might get an audience Well you did get an audience, you know. But you did get an audience. We did. We did. And we got some who absolutely loved it, a lot of people. But it was getting them in. I think the negative response,

and don't forget we're not on the back of a huge hit like Phantom of the Opera from Andrew. So it didn't have advanced sales that were astronomical. So in the climate of the West End, it wasn't a triumph. No. But I agree, and I understand it, but I do agree with what you said. And what was so gratifying is having the writers, having Andrew Lloyd Webber and Don Black and Charles Hart,

coming up and saying, this is how it should be. You've done justice to the work that existed. If anyone listening has got an interest in a career in musical theatre, or they have a child or a grandchild who would like to do it, I urge you to have a look at this book, because I do

think you learn a great deal from the book, Michael, about how to do musical theatre. I hope so. And how to be a part of this world, because it's a very, very particular world, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. You've got your own language, you've got your own traditions. I loved hearing about... There's stuff in... Is it Broadway,

where you have a special robe that people wear? Yeah, it used to be called the Gypsy Robe. You don't call it that anymore. It's now the Legacy Robe. And this is a fabulous idea. And I didn't know about it until I went there. And it's every show that opens, a musical that opens on Broadway, you are visited by the last show that opened,

one representative who is the keeper of the robe, who is the longest-serving performer from that show, and they come and visit to you and pass on the robe and they have to put something on the robe that uh signifies their show and and then it's your duty when the next show opens to pass it on and these this has been going on for decades and all the robes get filled up and they're they're given to Museum. And it's that, and I love that. I love that kind of thing. I love the legacy.

It's like when you go into a theatre and you play the Palladium or the Palace Theatre, every theatre, and you can't help but feel the ghosts, feel the people who've been there before and think about the people who are going to come afterwards. Also, you do drop names like there's no tomorrow and your anecdotage is prodigious. And we'll get on in a moment to the day that Dame Diana Rigg

went backstage to give Joan Collins smacting tips. Don't. It's amazing. I mean, you talk about Andrew Lloyd Webber emerges as a mercurial gentleman, hugely talented. Which I'm sure doesn't come as a surprise. No, well, probably not.

Is he easy to work with or for? I mean, he's a genius. We need to acknowledge that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He can be really challenging. And I think you kind of earn the right to be when you're someone like Andrew. Very different from working with Stephen Sondheim,

you know, who are kind of the two names. The names. The names of musical, certainly modern musical theatre. There is... You know, I love working with him. And I've worked with Andrew a lot. And I know him as well as you can, I think, when you're in those circumstances.

And know how to... He is... He blows really hot. And then, you and then comes down. Yeah, well, he had this thing where he would summon people to his country retreat. And you were there, you say yourself, as a turn. Yeah, I am. I'm a top turn.

You're a top turn with your own toilet. We need to make that clear. And chocolate bar. So what was the atmosphere like? I mean, you'd expect to be sort of, you showcased his new work to invited guests. This is what he always did. It's called the Sidmonton Festival.

Sidmonton is his country estate. And on it, there's an old church and he converted it into a theatre. And he would have workshops for all of his, or other people's different productions. And it was the first time, and I loved it, it's the first time we get to see what Joe Public thinks. And Joe Public, you know, turns out to be Heseltine, Margaret Thatcher.

Well, they're very common people, Michael. You know, regular people, obviously. At least one of them is sat in that chair in living memory. Yes, carry on. Which one? Geoffrey Archer. Geoff, yes. Geoff, as you know.

I think one morning, didn't you potter downstairs to discover John Selwyn Gummer in his grundies? Yeah, well, we were... It's lived with me. Because we weren't staying at the house. Oh, right. Only the great and the good stay there. So we're sort of farmed out to friends or pensions around the area.

And I found myself in a farmhouse. I can't even remember whose it was. And I came down and there was John Selwyn Gummer in his pants making a cup of tea, which he offered to make for me. Oh, that's very nice. Was he in the cabinet at the time? No, I think he was in the...

Oh, good. So, there is a backstage etiquette, Michael Ball, who's our guest this afternoon. His memoir is called Different Aspects. And you go backstage, don't you, if you're a friend of the turn? Yeah. But what are you supposed to do? What are you supposed to say?

You're supposed to... I mean, if you didn't enjoy... If you loved it, then you tell them. If you didn't, you don't tell them. You absolutely... But what do you say? You were... You want a Niagara of unqualified praise.

You know, it's happened, it's done. You're a mate. So you find the right things to say, say those you know to do that and and uh be encouraging and and um be positive you know but that's that's my take on it anyway that's what i would always try and do i would i would i would try and make people feel good because they've got to go and do it the next night and the next night and the next night and it's done i wanted to ask you about that actually because you do come across as an incredibly kind of naturally positive person actually michael and you have exactly but on those kind of i don't know wet wednesday evenings where you you're more than halfway through a run and, you know, maybe you've just had a pretty rubbish day

outside of the theatre and you've got to get on stage. Where do you get the thing from to be the entertainer again and again? Well, here's the thing. First of all, I'm a professional. We're in the business of entertaining and we have a job to do, so you dig deep. You find as well that it's why I love being live. It's about an audience. You know, it's what they give back to us is so invigorating usually.

And you do have those days. Of course you do. And you just have to do your job. And set that aside. The lovely thing is that I find that quite often happens. You can have the worst, I mean, especially in a show like Hairspray, you have the worst day and you're just not, you're not feeling great and things are piling up.

You're there, stood in your costume, and that overture starts up. And you're suddenly on a train. Is that Good Morning Baltimore? Good Morning Baltimore. It's the best. It's just, I mean, come on. And then it doesn't stop. The train takes off and you are on it and you can't get off until you can't stop to breathe at the end of the show.

And so you forget it. That's why it was great doing this job. You leave that all behind. But you do say in the book that you think it's possibly a post-COVID thing, but that younger members of cast are a bit, and I hate the term, a bit snowflakey. Why do you hate the term? Because I'm not sure. I mean, because I suppose I've got snowflake offspring, if you like.

Well, they're of that generation. And, you know, I think they have been dealt in many ways a tough turn. It's not been easy for them. But you definitely say that some younger cast members might be prone to the odd sickie. Yeah, sadly. I mean, I'm very much of the school of the show goes on, unless you really can't,

unless it's detrimental to the show and to the audience. But there has been, and I know I'll get stick for this, but I don't care. There is this tendency that if the slightest thing is challenging, then I can't do it. One girl, who will remain nameless, but in a show, didn't turn up. I said, well, and she was off a lot.

What's wrong with her? She said, well, she just doesn't feel she can come. We phoned. This is pre-COVID. Right. We phoned. Are you all right, lovely? I'm just really tired.

I mean, really? How tired? Just, you know, really, really tired. OK, well, why don't you take the... No, don't take the week off. Take the contract off. Take the show off. You know, just take performing out of your CV.

Because that's, you know, you crack on. And there is an element of me... Now, I've also had my own struggles and mental health issues. Well, you've had stage fright. Yes, yeah, and which has removed me from a show. I removed myself because I knew I wasn't going to be able to deliver. And I sorted myself out. And it's the most painful, awful thing.

How do you sort stage fright out? I didn't seek help. I should have done. What I did was put myself in a situation on live television that I thought, if I die, because the panic attacks that would happen, you think you're going to die. And I thought, if I screw up, excuse my language, on live television singing a song, then that's it.

I'll stop. If I don't, and I get through it, it'll never be worse than this. And I will find the techniques to do that. So I've developed techniques. And, and also, you know, I have people, Kath, my partner, sees the warning signs of me when I'm overtired, when I'm overstressed. And you just become aware. And it's about tricking your brain to not go into that spiral. It's amazing how many incredibly successful, talented performers are still dealing with that. Sheila Hancock still has stage fright, doesn't she?

Miriam Margulies has stage fright. And I know a number of people who can no longer perform on stage. They'll do film work and so on because it's a different pressure. But they won't do stage work because they simply cannot deal with it. What do you think of the audience participation thing that's going down at the moment? Have you had that on stage yourself? Not so much in Sweeney Todd and Aspects of Love.

Or Aspects of Love. You know, there wasn't a lot of part in it. I mean, I get it. The clever shows, the shows like Mamma Mia, Joseph, put in a mega mix at the end that's designated, this is your moment to stand up, have a dance and sing along. But for somebody to get up and be singing i will always love you in the bodyguard with some person trying to sing along

with it you're not going to be better than beverly night no you know you're not and the people around it's so disrespectful to the the artists to the people on stage. And it's not that, that's not what this show is about. There are some shows it works. Panto, absolutely. But when it's things that, you know, a tough one would be Les Mis. Everybody knows Les Mis. And I can see a place where everyone at the very end will start singing

Do You Hear The People Sing? because that's what it's about but don't join in with Bring Him Home and Empty Chairs and Empty Tables and by and large they don't it's a specific kind of a show I think and I'm not for it What about the, there was a Just Stop Oil protest

wasn't there at Les Mis? Annoying but bearing in mind that this is what the play itself is about, you can see, well, the spirit of revolution is in the... Oh, I think that's really tenuous. OK, well, we'll move on. No, I get it. I know what you're saying. But in which case, anybody who has any protest about anything should be getting up in the middle of Les Mis and stopping the show.

We're not encouraging that. No, it doesn't bear scrutiny. It is... I don't think it works. I just want to hear about Dame Diana Rigg. Oh, yeah. And this is back to backstage etiquette. I mean, Fee and I are both essentially dames of broadcasting.

Of course you are. And Dame Diana Rigg went backstage to see the now Dame Joan Collins after Dame Joan, I don't think she was a dame at the time. No, she wasn't. Had given her version of Private Lives. Private Lives. And as you say, I mean, in a very understated way, you say it wasn't the best production of Private Lives.

It was fabulous, but not probably for the reasons it should have been. I loved it. I had the best time. It was dinner's D Meets Coward. Right. And I don't know if it's a match made in heaven. It's the mash-up we all wanted. But, you know, so we went backstage.

Kath and I went backstage afterwards. And I love Joan. And we'd been sat with Dame Diana Rigg, who I worship. So I'm thinking, this is going to be a really special backstage moment. And Joan is there in the black negligee and a house, you know, one of those proper Hollywood looks from the 40s,

pours us some champagne and we're talking, saying how wonderful she all was because that's what you do. And there's a knock at the door. She went, oh, darling, who is it? And it was Diana Rigg. Darling! Oh, come in, darling! Who is it? And it was Diana Rigg.

Darling! Oh, come in, darling! In came Diana and she went, you were extraordinary. From the moment you walked onto that stage, you had the audience in the palm of your hands. One or two little notes, though. Can I give them to you?

And Joan went, yes, darling. I'd love to hear what you thought. She said, were you nervous first half? Lower register, where was it? And Joan, what do you mean? She said, well, I thought you must be nervous because it was quite screechy at moments, quite screechy and actually a little painful to listen to. So lower register, engage it, bring it down,. Engage it. Bring it down.

You'll find it's marvellous. And I actually think that's good advice for life generally. Do you know, bring it down, lower register. Thank you, Dame Diana Rigg. A magic moment. And thank you, Michael Ball. Oh, it's been lovely. Currently only an OBE.

But for how much longer? I mean, so what do you mean? A damehood's come in my way. Surely, surely, Michael. From your lips to God's ear. Michael Ball, and I did love, I didn't just love the anecdote, it's the, he's got...

It's the telling of it. It's the telling of it, isn't it? The day the two dames, Diana and Joan, clashed backstage, that does, I didn't catch that production of Private Lives. I'm rather glad I didn't catch that production of Private Lives I'm rather glad I didn't so the Dame thing is just funny isn't it so Giles uh brandreth gets all of the current big dames from the world of theater on stage together doesn't he imagine the competitive nature of those dressing rooms so I think Dameame diana riggs involved in that judy

dench is involved i think joan collins is up there too you know there are about seven dames sheila hancock eileen atkins possibly your mate yeah uh just imagine great actress by the way genuinely what goes on behind the scenes there. I cannot imagine, but I... I'd like to. I would, it was a part of me that would very much like to. Anyway, Michael Ball, if you're a fan of his, you'll be, I hope you'll just be enchanted by just hearing him. And also, I think we both just, he was just a lovely person,

just to have around. I mean, he can't be like that 24-7 because nobody is, but it's just fun sometimes. He was really lovely. To be with a pro. Yeah, and he looked really well, sparkling blue eyes. And, yeah, we just really enjoyed his company. Just a very easy guest, actually.

A very giving, knows what to do. Knows the business. Yep, so more of that. And there's a lovely picture up on the Insta. There's a book club reveal if you've missed it. We are reading Trent Dalton, Boy Swallows Universe. Jane and I are a bit nervous about starting. Some of you have already finished.

I mean, that's the type of person who would have done a summer holiday project. Well, that's the kind of person who'd have done a project, yeah. But you can join us at any time. And what is our Insta? It's Jane and Fee. Just go to Instagram and search Jane and Fee and we're the only ones there as far as I know. And we're doing nicely with the old followers.

Just a couple of million behind where we'd like to be so tell your neighbours knock on their door now, they're probably not doing anything for Pete's sake, have a lovely couple of days we're back on Monday Goodbye Who's our guest on Monday? It's Ian Dale It's Ian Dale?

Yes He'll be another absolutely stellar treasure of a guest He's written a book about history. It's called Kings and Queens. You will never guess what that's about. I'm reading that one, aren't I? 750 pages long. You did it.

Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer.

It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he was an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock, Monday until Thursday, every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix

of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.