Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I want to be Lonnie when I grow up! (in paid partnership with Washington D.C, featuring Lonnie G. Bunch III)

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

In this special bonus episode brought to you by Washington, DC, Jane and Fi learn about the many experiences waiting in the U.S. capital. They chat with Lonnie G. Bunch III, Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, which brings powerful stories, rich history and cultural gems to life across its 17 free museums and the National Zoo throughout the city. Discover why there’s only one Washington, DC. Book your trip now at Dialaflight.com/wdc. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This very special episode of Off Air is made possible in paid partnership with Washington DC. Now we have got a real treat for you. We've been talking to a fascinating historian and educator. He's got a fantastic name as well, which is not that relevant, but it's sweet just to acknowledge it. It's Lonnie G Bunch III. I'm going to say that again because I enjoy it so much. Lonnie G Bunch III. Now he also happens to be Secretary of the Smithsonian Institute and that runs free museums and a zoo in the DC area. I didn't realize Jane quite how extensive the Smithsonian was and I was imagining it was just one building, one museum, but it's a brand isn't it that is bringing you culture of all sorts. It really is and like you I didn't realise the full extent of it

either. So we need to listen to our own interview. And we might learn something. But also I think everyone could learn from the way this man talks about his job because he, we were able to see him when we were talking to him, he radiates enthusiasm and honestly it really really comes across. It does. So here we go, we began by asking Lonnie G Bunch III, just can't say that enough, what his job actually entails. I oversee 21 museums, 21 libraries, sort of five or six research centres around the world and the zoo. So basically my job is to make sure that a place that is ripe with education that is made accessible through museums and educational programs functions

well and basically serves a global public. And how long have you been in that role? I've been secretary for six years. I've been in and out of the Smithsonian since I was a 25 year old kid. So it's been a, I'm a lifer. So can you tell us about your earlier memories then of the Smithsonian and what it means to you? Well, you know, I got my first job at the Air and Space Museum by a fluke that I was at the end of working on my PhD and I was broke. And there was a returning student, she was so old, she's probably 40. And she basically said, go talk to my husband, he works at the Smithsonian.

And I remember saying, who works at the Smithsonian? It's where you take dates because it's free. That was my notion of the Smithsonian. And I went down and they were going to introduce me to the secretary and I said to them, I'm a scholar, I'm not a secretary. I thought they were putting me in the clerical pool. And I didn't know the secretary was the head of the whole Smithsonian. And so I'm chatting with the guy, and he says,

we might want to hire you. I said, really? And so really by a fluke, I started working at the Smithsonian. And sort of for me, though, the Smithsonian means more than just a place of museums. When I was a kid, there was a lot of discussion about the American Civil War, the Yankees versus Rebels, and I was going to the South with my family, and I wanted to see all these sites, these battlefields, but my father would never stop. He didn't tell me that as African Americans, we couldn't stop. We weren't allowed. But when we came

back, he pulled into Washington, D. Washington DC and dropped me off at the Smithsonian and said, here's a place you could go learn your history and culture and not worry about the colour of your skin. So for me, the Smithsonian has meant so much to me since I was 10 years old. So it's very humbling to be part of the community of the Smithsonian today. And you mentioned that it was free. Has it always been completely free to enter? It is completely free. The only part of the Smithsonian you have to pay, we have a museum

in New York that's the Cooper Hewitt Museum. They have a slight admission charge. But anywhere else millions of people, probably about 30 million people come to the Smithsonian each year because it's free. So if I land in Washington DC Secretary, where would you suggest that I head to first to have that really amazing, eye-popping experience and feeling that you've been describing? Well, I've got a bias. I'd started the National Museum of African American History and Culture that I had a chance to be part of, but I think that there is, what I tell people

when they come to Washington, stand on the National Mall. That's where the world comes to understand what it means to be an American. And look towards the Capitol, look towards the Lincoln Memorial, and you'll see yourself surrounded by the Smithsonian. So really anywhere you go, you'll be made better by that experience. And are there exhibits we can look at but also things we can touch and presumably now loads of stuff to interact with? There's a lot of interactivity, a lot of technical things, a lot of things especially for children, engagement in each museum has things for younger kids and adults. For me the

Smithsonian is always this place where you find wonders that sometimes are very small, sometimes very large. For me, I always love going into the Museum of American History and finding a very tiny little compass. It's about a four-inch square box, and it was a compass that Lewis and Clark,

the people who were asked to explore the Louisiana Purchase, all this new territory in the early 19th century, they carried that compass across the entire United States and used that to find their way back and the notion of something that small survived and is in the Smithsonian is really pretty cool to me. And where do most people go? Are the particular exhibits that just always have a queue worthwhile to stand in but definitely a queue of things to see? You always have long lines to see the

dinosaurs. We have amazing dinosaurs and the other long lines candid, are in the zoo to go see the pandas. The pandas. Oh, I love a panda, Joe. I like a panda myself. Yeah, pandas too. How often do you get to go to the zoo yourself? Well, you know, I mean, again, when you're a poor graduate student, anything that's free, you go to, right? So I used to go to the zoo a lot.

And part of it was that I was in college when they first brought the pandas. And like everybody, it was exciting to see the pandas. Who knew that I would be in charge of the pandas? But I think that it's really one of the great joys of the Smithsonian, that you can find things that excite you, whether it's science, whether it's looking at airplanes from the Air and Space Museum, whether it's understanding the challenge of gender and race by going to the African American History Museum, or you's understanding the challenge of gender and race by going to the African American History Museum, or you want to really revel in amazing art, whether it's the art of the Hirshhorn, which is more contemporary art or

historic art, so that in essence the Smithsonian really is this opportunity to touch the universe. Do you face that challenge that so many other institutions face at the moment which is being in competition with the stuff that we can get on our phones that feeling especially for younger people that the world is actually literally at their fingertips and for museums it's challenging isn't it to say no come come and be in a proper human environment and actually see things? Well, I mean, I think that when I was building

the African American Museum, we did a lot of surveys with younger kids, right, to figure out, you know, how do you engage? And what's clear is that the technology allows, especially younger folks, to engage, but many of them have never seen the authentic, the actual. What we found was this great desire for people to sort of engage with this material, but also as you framed it, the other challenge is that when you're on your phone, you really

don't get the social interaction that occurs in a museum. And one of the great strengths of a museum is people come around a collection or an object and they don't know each other, they begin to engage. The object allows them to tap their memories or to ask questions. So I think there's been this great desire that yes, you have the world at your fingertips, but you can't sometimes not understand the world unless you're engaged in a social activity and the museums allow you to do just that. Can I ask how long has the Smithsonian included a proper look at African-American history? The Smithsonian has done exhibitions that talk about race since the 1960s but the National Museum of African-American History and Culture was something I worked on for 11 years and

it opened in 2016. So really, for nine years there's been this opportunity to now understand the richness of culture of the United States by going to that museum as well. So it's been something that, the Smithsonian has always had exhibitions from time to time on Native American culture, on questions of gender, but the African American Museum is now now will be nine years old in September. You've got a very big year coming up in America next year the 250th anniversary of the USA Washington DC will be at the center of celebrations and I wonder whether you can give us a little sneak peek of some of the best things that were we to visit next year we'll be able

to find. Sure I mean I think that the 250th is really important, the 250th of the celebration of the Declaration of Independence. It's really important because in a way, right now America has two parallel tracks, right? There is a track that is sort of patriotic, that this is America's a place of great exceptions, that the founding fathers were these brilliant people. Then you've got another track where people are saying, you know, but America's got flaws, and it's been flawed around issues of gender or race. And what I want to do with the Smithsonian is take a third path,

which basically says one of the great strengths of this nation is that people have struggled, voted, died, protested in order to make concrete the notions of liberty and fairness that are in the Declaration of Independence. So you don't run away from history. You really look at those challenges. So what we're going to do is a variety of things to help people see this through different lenses.

We're going to do a month-long festival of culture that's gonna be on the Mall where you can hear the music, to hear the words, you can sort of engage in food ways to understand that the great strength of a nation is that it's made up of so many different cultures. And that would be going on for a whole month. And then there will be special exhibitions in each museum. In the castle, which is the building that's the oldest part of the Smithsonian,

there'll be an exhibition where they're going to actually let me do work again as an honest historian. It'll have 15 objects that have never been together before. Thomas Jefferson's desk that he wrote the Declaration of Independence and objects like that that only get a chance to see one time. And then each museum will do different things. There'll be an amazing exhibition on looking at American history through fine art. So every American will see themselves represented in some way, will they? I think so. I think that what you'll see is the complexity of America. And I think part of the challenge is not everybody wants to see the complexity of America. And I think that what you'll see is the complexity of America. And I think part of the challenge is not everybody wants to see the complexity of America.

And I think that it's important, however, to make sure that the Smithsonian celebrate the amazing diverse cultures of this country, that the Smithsonian allows us to understand how central history is to understanding who we are, that you cannot run from history because it's really shaping who we are, that you cannot run from history because it's really shaping who we are, so it's important to understand it and all its complexity. So I think that the goal will be to help America continue to

come together to find common ground, but to find common ground through understanding the challenges, the nuances and complexity of the past. A great year to visit. As you've alluded to, Secretary, the Smithsonian is a vast estate. Do you ever get lost? Do you ever find yourself in a part of the building or the many buildings you've got? I've never been here before. How do I get out? More times than I care to admit. I find myself going down corridors saying, I used to work in this building. How come I can't figure out where I am? So imagine a place that's got 7,000

employees, right? Has sort of over sort of 80 buildings around the city and the country. So it's pretty easy to get lost in the Smithsonian. But the great thing is when you get lost, you find something that changes you, that moves you, that makes you better. I can imagine, we can see you at the moment, and when you talk about the Smithsonian, your face just lights up. The thrill hasn't gone, has it?

You're still that 25-year-old who walked into the place. Absolutely. You know, there's something about being able to, first of all, work with gifted people who really explore science, art, culture in a way that is really just for the public. And then for me, it's about the sense of discovery. You know, I walk into the Hirshhorn Museum, which is a museum of contemporary art. I don't know what I'm looking at, but I'm made better by the experience.

I learn new things. Or I walk into the Natural History Museum and I walk into the dinosaur exhibition and I realise I'm learning about climate change and how that had an impact on these dinosaurs. So to me, it's the sense of surprise, the sense of discovery, the sense of wonder that is about the Smithsonian that I love. That was Lonnie G. Bunch, the third secretary of the Smithsonian Institute. Well, I hope if you listen to that, you understand what we were saying at the start there. There's a man who does his admittedly fascinating job brilliantly well, because I have never felt more excited about the prospect of visiting a museum or indeed several museums and the zoo. I want to be Lonnie when I grow up.

Remember all of the 17 Smithsonian museums and the zoo are free to visit and DC will be a very special destination to visit in 2026 because America is celebrating its 250th anniversary. And the city will be activating once in a lifetime events, block parties, parades and special exhibitions. It's year long, but many events will take place in spring and summer. So why not take your summer break in the capital? So if you've been thinking about taking a vacation across the pond, Washington DC has the perfect mix of budget and family-friendly

activities and with America 250 around the corner, now is the time to book that trip. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music