Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I would consider myself a bit more doughnut adjacent...

Episode Date: October 26, 2026

Fi is off on her Germanic spa break, and Jane has already broken her promise... Caffeinated and raring to go, Jane and Eve cover vows of silence, wet coats on public transport, airplane divas and bereavement. Plus, historical novelist Philippa Gregory shares her book recommendations and discusses her new book 'Royal Witch'. Our new playlist 'Hunker Down' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5lt3IKncxKGetl1tovCoKz?si=07H_ZQ5mQxqSVAXpmZP3bA You can buy 'Did I Say That Out Loud?: Notes on the Chuff of Life' here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Did-Say-That-Out-Loud/dp/1398705667 Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to off air for Monday. It is the 26th of October and it's one of those very grimy, wet, grey, dark days. Spooky week as well, of course, because it's Halloween on Saturday. Now, Eve is here with me. Fee has gone to that wellness establishment and she'll be writing about that for the times. So I hope you're fit and well this Monday. Fee will be back next week. Oh, I'm back in the room. And yes, normal service will be resumed then. How are you feeling this morning, Jane? Yes, I'm all right, thank you. Why? Feeling perky, are you?

Are you worried because I bought in the satsumas? No. I'm just remembering that you committed us to abstaining from caffeine in solidarity with fee. Oh, God, yeah. While she's on her retreat, I'm sure she's not giving us a second thought. No. But you swaned in here this morning, and the first thing you did is go to the coffee bar. I think I've forgotten that pledge. But let's...

She won't know about this. So that's absolutely fine. I'm thinking of her. And a week of, or even a couple of days of deprivation in extreme wellness circumstances wouldn't suit me. Do you think you could do it? Do you think you'd benefit from it? Absolutely not.

Someone I know just came back literally yesterday from 10 days on a silent retreat. I don't think either of us could do that. 10 days? I couldn't do 10 minutes. No. Well, I could do... Actually, probably I couldn't. I could do eight minutes.

Maybe. What appealed to him about it? He's quite into his meditation. Right. It was like a Buddhist centre. Right. I think it was obviously extremely challenging. But confronting in a way that he seeks.

Yeah. I'm quite happy we're not confronting anything. No. I think I did. I'm not looking for anything deeper, aren't you? I don't want to find out what's below the surface. Yeah. Well, sometimes.

I don't mind at all being on my own. I don't mind peace and quiet. Yeah. But the thought of enforced silence, that would be too much for me. In fact, I very rarely sit in total silence. I've always got music on or the radio or a podcast or an audio book. But then I also do think that that's something that's a bit wrong with us all now. Oh, do you? Okay, go on.

That we're actually really quite bad with being in silence. And I think sometimes you don't, having just slated the silent Buddhist centre, we don't actually give ourselves a minute just for our brain. to be quiet and recoup. I don't think we're very good at being in quiet anymore. No, you're probably right about that. I must admit, I always insist on a kind of hubbub as soon as I'm awake. Yeah, on comes the radio.

And, yeah, from then on, I'm accompanied by sound until my head hits the pillow. And I don't know what that does to us. Well, there's a topic, cheerful one. Jane and Fee at Times. We have had an email about Eve. It's not right on whether it is from a relative. It's headline, please help Eve. Help me.

I love you guys. Sorry, I know Jane and or Fee load that term. I think it's more me than Fee, but I don't think she's that keen either. I just wanted to check something that keeps niggling at me, okay? So Lucy's worried. Is Eve getting appropriately compensated for the time she's spending on air? I used to work in the industry at the BBC, but you probably won't want to mention that.

No, I'm very happy to. And would often be required to step up and go on air for free as it was assumed that it was for my own benefit and career progression when I actually had no ambition to be on the airwaves. By the way, I just don't understand that. See, I really, I love your commitment

and I absolutely know and fully appreciate that there's a whole skill set in radio that is nothing to do with sitting in front of a microphone. But boy, you couldn't have kept me away from it as soon as I knew... You had nothing but ambition. As soon as I knew it was a possibility. I was in there like a rat up a drain pipe

and other people have been suffering ever since. Okay, I had my first baby in May 2020, she goes on to say, during COVID, and you both constantly mentioned pregnant women and new mothers. It meant a lot to me at the time, and I'll always remember that. Thank you. Jane and I are birthday twins, says Lucy, although 25 years apart, and I live in Manchester. Well, I'll forgive you for that. 25 years apart, okay, so you're a proper spring chicken, Lucy.

And I know that when Fee and I were podcasting during the pandemic, we did try to mention people with babies, especially newborns, because that must have been such a tough, tough experience. Lucy, thank you for the email. Over to Eve now. Are you being properly looked after? Do people need to be worried about you?

You don't need to be worried about me. Jane buys me a coffee every morning, which is very nice. This is interesting, because you didn't come into this job wanting to be in front of a microphone, did you? No. I'm paid my salary. Yeah.

I'm not paid to chip in to this. But you've ended up doing more and more. Yes, and I do chip in. But I think when we started incorporating production more into the podcast, the idea and feeling was that it was organic and it was natural because this really is what we're all like at the desks and the conversations that we have away from the mics. Sitting down outside.

So it's really no effort or taxing because this genuinely is how we interact with one another. Yeah. So it felt like a natural move. I mean, Eve's in a difficult position here, Lucy, and I feel for her. But I think you need to know she's all right. Yes. No, I'm okay. I'm happy.

She is all right. But Lucy, thank you for being concerned. And actually, one of the things I'm proudest of is exactly what Eve said there. The kind of organic, we didn't set out to involve Eve or Hannah or Rosie, but it's ended up being a kind of quite refreshing, occasionally intergenerational exchange of views and experiences. And actually, you don't get that in every other podcast. We know there are ones that are similar to our fair. I mean, not as good, but similar.

Yeah. But I'm not sure that they involve younger people in the way that we try to do. And none of us were forced into this position. We were checked to make sure we were okay with it. Lucy, she's all right. I'm all right. Weren't you doing a bit of kiddie care over the weekend? Didn't you tell me you were picking up a relative?

I did. I went and picked up my boyfriend's niece and nephew from their school on Friday. I had that go. It was so fun. Fun? It's sort of fun in the sense that I did it once and I won't really be doing it again but it was fun on the day

because it was very sweet they kind of spotted us from the windows Are they at primary school? One of them was in nursery 17 No corn They're five and three respectively and they swirred in the window

and then just got so so excited I mean were they excited to see us and were they excited because it was half term possibly that who can say Yeah and then we took them for a very stressful hot chocolate in the cafe around the corner

It always appears like it might be quite good fun, but these things are actually quite stressful. And they're so popular, all the kids know each other so well, and they're like shouting each other off the street, and where are they going to run in the road? I have a lot of respect for parents. Have you?

Okay. The school run is no joke. It certainly isn't. And also, they've got their own coffee and chino orders, haven't they? Yeah, even at that age. They have baby chinos these days. No, I don't know what I'm school. I want the baby chino.

They came in when my kiddies were small, and I couldn't believe that they actually... I mean, basically, these places are on a high... I mean, they make so much money out of them. Just froth, isn't it? It's literally just frothed milk with a bit of chocolate powder on top. Pay £2.80 for some froth? Yes.

We've seen you coming. Anyway, I'm glad to know that you've done that. Successfully, you carried out that mission to pick them up from school. They were the right children. Yep. And you brought them to the right place. And the teachers were aware.

They did look at us slightly funny when we first arrived in. They said, oh, right, yeah, you're the aunt and uncle. We were warned about... Warned about... Not just some people lurking. Weirdly. Oh, God, I don't even joke about it. How was your weekend, Jane?

You didn't get blown away. I didn't get blown away, but it was quite, I made a couple of cock-ups, as I always do. I wanted to go and see the film Pressure. Have you seen Pressure with Andrew Scott? No. Oh, it's been, I mean, there's all sorts of talk about him getting an Oscar nomination. In fact, I think I gather he's going to be competing against himself because he's also put in another brilliant performance in a film that hasn't been released yet.

Elsinor. That's the one I've been aware of. you've heard about that but it's interesting because pressure is I don't think it I haven't seen it unfortunately because I was going with a friend and I she thought I booked and I didn't think we'd need to and I hadn't booked so we didn't see it but I'm sure it did you find yourself under a spot of pressure I did also I couldn't get on the first bus that came along because it was round because of the rain anyway suffice to say she ended up paying to see a completely different film which was fatherland but I loved it fatherland's very arty it's not my normal thing

It's very short. It's in black and white. There are subtitles. But you know what? It achieves such a lot in a relatively short amount of time. Highly recommended. Very, very good indeed. Are you going to try again to see pressure? I might, because there's a showing after a hair appointment later in the week. So I might be able to shove it in. Because it's a kind of, I think I've heard from people who've seen it. It's a bit of a work-a-day World War II thriller about the impact of a mettoe. A meteorologist, played by Andrew Scott, on the day. date of the D-Day landings. Oh. So, you know, I like that sort of thing. I find it really educational. And I would like it.

But I think it's his performance that has made it something that people are desperate to see. And how did you fare with the clocks changing? Difficult. How about you? No, I was all right. I was still out, so I just didn't really notice. I was very much trying to

stay up late watching telly, so I didn't wake up too early the next morning. That's literally. And that's the difference between us. I had been to Worcester on Saturday to see my sister because it's my dad's funeral later on this week so we're doing the prep and choosing photographs and stuff so you need to be in the same room basically and our journey I went with my daughter and our journey to Worcester on the train was held up by a new one on me okay so I've had any number of rail experiences over the years this was a train held up by a swan on the line and we were actually stopped a complete stand

still for about 20 minutes around maidenhead because a swan was on the line and they are protected creatures and they cannot be moved. That's got to be in the maidenhead echo somewhere. Well, I don't know what happened in the end. We don't even know that it was our train that was directly impacted or one of the trains in front. But obviously that meant that every train had to stop. So, I mean, as a very regular rail user, I haven't heard that one before. Yeah, nor have I, but it sort of makes sense. Swans hold that sort of air of entitlement that they would hold up some trains. Yeah, well they're owned by the king, so you're not allowed to touch

them. So you just have to let them do their thing. You just have to let them do their thing. So if they choose to waddle across a rail line, that's up to them. I don't know why they don't do it more often. They could have all kinds of an impact on all sorts of different people and journeys. It's not encouraged them. They might be listening. They might be. Rose is in Somerset.

On the subject of homemade lampshades, Fee was talking about this last week, my mum made one for my bedside light out of my dad's old boxer shorts. Oh. It's a nice floral design. The memory made me laugh, so thank you. Keep up the excellent chat. You often make me laugh out loud on the allotment, which has caused me to receive some funny looks. I'd love to hear more about allotments. I think there's a real culture there, and I think it's a lot these days to get an allotment. You think it's a massive waiting list depending on where you are in the country. And they just seem like a really good idea. It's such a lifesaver for some people. Oh, yeah. Well, in every way. I know some people, they do allotment time shares. So there's about four people tending to one allotment

and between them, they just go up and visit. So you don't have as much of a commitment, but you still get to reap some of the rewards. Oh, okay. Well, that sounds like a good idea. Yeah, it's quite a nice way to do it. Now, we did have a very welcome guest on Thursday. That was Lady Glenn Connor.

I've said it before, but she does. She appears most years, doesn't she, on off air? And she is a delight, I would say. We both agree about that. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm, you know, as you'll know, I'm not all that royal family positive all of the time. And I've definitely got my issues.

But Lady Glenn Connor is, she's just, well, we said it last week. She's just one of those positive people who's been through so many challenging experiences in life. And she's just good to spend time with because she's completely without bitterness and rancor. Yeah. Yeah, she really is. You can't help but sort of like your mouth kind of just twitches while she's talking with a smile. Yeah. She has such a light approach to things.

To difficult things. Yeah. Anyway, this is from Ruth, who enjoyed hearing Lady Glenn Connor last week on Thursday. She does stop by saying, I hope Fee's Germanic adventure is going well, and she's getting enough oaky chardonnay and doughnuts. I'm much more donut adjacent than Fee is, so I think Fee might be a bit better at dealing with the deprivation than I would be. I don't know that Fee doesn't like Chardonnay, and I don't either. Do you like chardonnay?

Not particularly. No, I don't really like wine. Anyway, I think we'll find out from Fee next week quite how restrictive this place is. I think it's quite hard going. I don't think it's a place where you can sneak out. I only went to a health farm once, and my friend and I broke out to try and get alcohol on the first night.

You may want to take a look at yourself. Yeah, well, I was younger then. What were you going to say? I think Fee was saying that about donuts and okie shardney. When she signed herself into the one in Austria of the book, her divorce. And that's what she was craving. That's what she actually just wanted instead of going to the super strict. Okay, got it.

Yeah, you're right. And I do recommend Feast chapter on that wellness experience in our wonderful book. Did I say that out loud? Still available? Probably cost you about 80p on World of Books. I really ought to put a link for it in the description. I've got linked to Peter Thornton's book. Right, but not to ours.

Do you know what? Sorry, would you mind doing that? please, especially as the festive season of roaches. Sorry, I will. I mean, it will be really cheap on all reasonable outlets. And you could make someone's Christmas with that. I am writing to you, says Ruth, from a very autumnal queue in West London. I have really enjoyed your...

What makes a cue autumnal? Cue the place. K-E-W. God. Sorry, yeah, she wasn't just lining up outside. I just was bored and accused, I thought you'd write me there. God, I mean, that would tell. That's really impressive if you can do that.

Q Gardens, I bet it's delightful at Kew Gardens at the moment. Beautiful colours. And before I got held up by the Swan on Saturday, I was enjoying, really enjoying the bucolic idyll of autumnal, rainy England. It was absolutely beautiful, it really was. And Q is a wonderful place, and the gardens are well worth exploring. I just sometimes find it a bit noisy because of the planes going overhead. It depends on the window.

direction, but sometimes you get so many planes overhead at queue that you can't pretend you're in the middle of the countryside because you're actually about five minutes from Heathrow Air Force. Yeah. Anyway, I've thoroughly enjoyed your previous interviews with Lady Glenn Conner, and I have meant to write him before. But this recent appearance has finally prompted me. Her wonderful memories of Hocom Hall, that is how it's pronounced. I believe so.

Okay. I think it depends how posh you are. All right. Well, not very in my case. Always spark brilliant conversations with my dad, says. Ruth, who grew up on the estate alongside Anne Glenn Connor, Lady Glenconnor. My granddad was a gardener on the estate, and my dad lived there in a tiny house with his parents and five brothers. He is a few years younger than Lady Anne, but he remembers her with such fondness. In fact,

she gave him his very first job, sweeping the floors at the pottery there. He always says she was lovely and very kind to him. When my dad read Lady in Waiting, it brought back a flood of memories for him. He actually decided to write to her and she very kindly sent a letter back. Amazingly, she mentioned that she remembered him from the pottery. I cannot imagine how many years ago that would be now. It must have been in the early 50s. So for her to recall, basically, a local urchin who swept the floors for all those decades ago is incredible. My dad's great childhood friend from the estate was Barbara Barnes, who went on to be the nanny to both Anne's children and Princess William and Harry. I met Barbara several times when I was

child. When we were up in Hocom, we'd often visit her parents' house on the estate. I was fascinated as a child by their sitting room wall where every single Christmas card they'd ever had from Charles and Diana was proudly displayed in a framed case. Wow. Gosh, I can imagine. Oh my gosh. Hearing Lady Anne on Times Radio brought back so many wonderful memories. Thank you for bringing those up. My dad is very old and I know I won't be able to have these conversations with him for much longer. So your part in keeping these memories alive is much appreciated. Much love from Ruth. Thank you very much Ruth. And I'm really glad you enjoyed that conversation.

Lady Anne was a little bit gloomy about her prospect for writing another book, wasn't she? Well, she was, but she said she might do one on hair. Yeah, then she thought she might have one on her. So let's not write off the possibility. But I'm glad to hear of an anecdote that lines up with our view of her, of how nice she is. Wouldn't it be awful if we've got one say... Well, enter Cilla Black, perhaps I'm just groping for it now

Hang on Hang on Where did I put it I've got it, I've got it Nathan's a I think Nathan's written before But we love Nathan Thank you

You can cut all that faffing out Thanks Don't leave it in It's yes Nathan Welcome aboard again I'd love to have been on a flight With Nathan I don't know whether

Could we arrange it For Nathan to be on a flight When I'm going to One of my Greek holidays You wouldn't want to Nathan Trust me Yeah, if you think still a black is bad No, I'm really, I'm so nice on planes

Because I just, I can't believe I'm on holiday So I just really, I'm just very, very polite Well, as I am in most circumstances A little bit of an instant on the tube this morning actually When a woman wanted to sit next to me I wish she wanted to sit. There was a spare seat I was a spare seat

I'm glad you pulled me up on that Yeah, I mean, to be fair, it's Monday morning And it was wet and people weren't in the best of humour and I understand that completely. But my raincoat, I came in all weather gear this morning because it really is quite rough out there. Very sensible shoes as well. Grypham grippers I've got on today.

It's really slippery outside the building. It's very slippery, exactly. And at my age, you cannot be too careful. And I mean that because I suddenly think, what the hell will I do if I break an ankle? Doesn't bear thinking about. Anyway, this woman, she got on and she sort of looked at the place next to me

and my raincoat had just very slightly, and I mean by about half an inch encroached on the other seat. Oh, for goodness sake. I know, and I just sort of picked it up and held it around me in a slightly kind of awkward and embarrassed way. I suppose she didn't want to put her bottom down on my wet raincoat. Yeah, thinking about it, she probably had a point. As it gets into the winter season and you do need to incorporate more layers,

we just do all slightly expand with that and we take up a bit more space. We do, we all take up more space. And it's hard to always be completely. aware of everything. No. You're very right. But you're so wise. I'm with you, Jane. Oh, thank you. Wonderful. Just don't let it touch me. It's just worth saying that we are speaking. It's Monday, October the 26, as I might have mentioned before. And this is the day when people are talking quite seriously about Nikki Minaj becoming the White House press secretary. So just, I mean, that's just to mark your cards in a timeline so you know whereabouts in the history of the planet

you are. I mean, did you ever think? It honestly feels like a fever dream. I know. It really does, actually. Yeah, it really does. You don't need to drink anymore. You really don't because it's like you're piddled half the time at the reality of what's going on. Incredible. Here's Nathan, where we started with Nathan, some hours ago now. Unfortunately, I cannot not deny, I can't not deny what countless crews have reported about Silla Black. It all, it gave us all a sinking feeling when we saw she was on the manifest. I conveyed her, I love this, I conveyed her quite a few times to Malagher. and for the first time I had her in my care and she lived up to her loathsome reputation.

I don't know what was going on in her life. It is unfortunate to present such an effervescent persona on TV and then to be rude, dismissive and unpleasant to have on board and shelter the illusion that she presented to millions of people being a former national treasure. And that's the problem, isn't it? If you're an old cow on TV,

by all means be horrible on a plane. But if you're earning a loathing, a money, and she will have been earning a lot of money, from being super approachable and lovely, keep it up. Disgusting. I've got quite a thick skin, says Nathan, and I've had to manage tantrums from predominantly businessmen and reality stars during my career in the skies. But I truly didn't expect the level of hostility from Ms. Black that she exuded on the

occasions I carried her. By the way, what was Silla Black's real surname? Do you know? No. It's white. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm pleased, says Nathan, I wasn't serving the Barbados flight,

which she also frequented, and was apparently equally hostile to the crew there. But was she also then widely awful to all customer-serving staff, or was it specifically flights? It's really weird. I can bring something to this. Oh. But you weren't expecting that.

A friend of mine worked for a lead... I still did a friend of mine. Work for a leading shoe company, and she started her career working in a shop. It was part of her management training. And I remember her telling me that Silla Black came into the branch that she was working in and was very pleasant. So, you know, I don't know.

So maybe someone from Kavanaugh's seriously wronged Silla Black early on. Maybe she just possibly an incredibly nervous flyer. Could that be it? Because I know flying doesn't, it's not for everybody. Being a nervous fly doesn't make you a malicious person. No, well, it shouldn't. I mean, in fact, I'd be more inclined to be, nicer because the people are there for my safety

if she'd often have her PA with her wouldn't she so then surely they could communicate that oh she's just quite nervous yeah you'd hope yeah I suppose that's true but anyway guess what I was reading there's quite a famous anecdote isn't there where Cecil wouldn't speak and the PA would communicate for her

and then one of the cabin crew got a bit pissed off with it all and then over and said I knew you couldn't sing but I didn't know you couldn't speak God I guess you're right we have I think we might have used that to my answer absolutely Very funny. If you, I suspect it might have a few people who work on BA and other airlines listening to this.

If you have any celebrity encounters, you're able to tell us about them. Please feel free, Jane and Fiat, Times, Stop Radio. I should point out that Nathan is a former BA cabin service director. So I'm afraid he won't have the pleasure of finding me on his manifest anytime soon because he's stopped. He'll be devastated. But this is, let's just put this one to you.

He has carried on many and again. occasion, Lorraine Kelly. Now, Eve, do you think Lorraine lived up to her image or was a right old mooh? I have to believe that she was sunny and delightful. She was! Thank God! Lorraine Kelly was a pleasure, kind and friendly. Right. That's that put to bed. I honestly think civilization would truly crumble if we found out. There's only a few good ones left. Yeah. Of which, Shane, you are one. Thank you.

I've been meaning to send this for a week or two, says, oh, anonymous. I drove through this village in a neighbouring canton recently. Now, this anonymous contributor is one of our, surprisingly, we've got quite a few listeners in Switzerland. And it's a shame we can't use your name anonymous because it is great. You've got a fantastic first name and a fantastic surname. In fact, she's got two surnames. So she's classy, one of our classy listeners.

I drove through this village in a neighbouring canton recently. It was in the arse end of nowhere, upper mountain in the valet, which is quite a religious canton, which is why my husband and I really laughed at his name, picture attached. Your podcast keeps me sane with a good bit of British humour, says Anonymous. Well, the village is spelt B-I-T-S-C-H.

How's it pronounced? Bitch. Yeah, anonymous. I mean, I didn't realise that, I don't know anything about Switzerland, actually, and I haven't been, and I didn't realize that some cantons are, I don't know, more religious than others, I suppose some would be. It's quite a... Have you been to Switzerland?

Only to go on skiing. It's a skiing, yeah. Via Geneva, yeah. So we really know it, which I'm so embarrassed about. So you've just kind of crossed through it. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't...

Sorry. Can't bring us anything there. No, good chocolate. Okay, and lots of people, thank you, very good chocolate. Lots of people still emailing about just about death. and bereavement and everything. And honestly, I've said it last week, but it's worth repeating. It's incredibly touching that so many of you have emailed.

Just like Fee's mom, who doesn't listen because it's not for her, my dad never, hadn't got a clue about the podcast. Absolutely. I mean, I tried to explain the concept once or twice. His eyes just glazed over. You could just see him thinking, what? And I don't blame him for that, because even a podcast is quite hard to define. Yeah, yeah.

And to be honest, even though I do one, I struggle to defy him. what it's about. Not surprising you've ever heard it. But it would have, I think, would have meant a great deal to him that so many people have, just actually his death and his dying has made so many of you think about your own experiences and I really appreciate it as well that so many different experiences and so many different thoughts. This is from Maria. I think we can use Maria's name. I think, Jane, you were absolutely right to be with your dad. And thankfully, you have great employers, as I do, who are sympathetic to this. I was also with my dad when he died age 90, two and a half years ago.

I held his hand and talked to him up to and after the end, and I'm so grateful to have been there along with my brother and my elder son. It wasn't scary. He was my dad, my beloved dad, who would have done anything for me, and it was the least I could do. You both kept me going through those tricky days, and now you're keeping me going again while I'm caring for my incredibly resilient 91-year-old mother

who has terminal cancer. As I try to sleep in the little bed in the room next to hers, you're my constant companions, thank you. Maria, I'm thinking of you. I hope the next couple of days and weeks are all right, and I think lots of us can particularly relate to that business of sleeping in a tiny bed

because you're going to always have a double bed when you're reaching these points in your life or your parents' life. So weirdly, that is a bit odd, sleeping in a small bed. I mean, I've found that a bit strange. Anyway, on a different note, says Maria, re-empty nesters. Our youngest son has just started at KCL. That's King's College London, isn't it? Yeah.

His accommodation is just across the road from Borough Market. And I'm guessing this must be very close to Times Towers. I may have to be a fan girl and just loiter around outside. Mercifully for you two, I am up north most of the time. Love having you back together, but Eve, Hannah and Rosie are all fabulous too. Well, that's true. That is true. Maria, obviously, thinking of you with your mum, but yes, your son is very close to times to her.

What fabulous locations have your university halls. I mean, that is amazing. It's incredible. Because that is a brilliant location. Because I didn't go to uni in London. I do wonder sometimes about accommodation for students in London. But they must be, I mean, must be in some really incredible locations. And some really shit ones.

And some really shit one. Yeah, well, you said it. Yeah. Well, you didn't know. You were in Leeds, weren't you? What was your Hall of Residents like? It was very fun. Very nice.

Yeah, it was really nice, actually. So also, obviously, you go up to university around this time of year, and Leeds is so green, heading leeway, where the halls was. So I really remember this exact weather and the leaves really turning and everything being so autumnal and vibrant

as that specific time of year when we moved up and I was getting to know the city. Well, it's interesting. I was talking to my daughters today about what's happened in Serbia and how this student movement has got rid of, quite an unpleasant nationalist leader. And I did say to her that it is amazing what students can do. Yes.

Whereas I'm not dissing students in Britain. And of course there are some very active political bodies in students and all the rest of it and student unions. But the idea of proper toppling of... of a nasty nationalist leader by a powerful student movement, would you and your cohort at Leeds have been capable of that? I think it would have been just ever since slightly beyond us. Well, you'd have had to get up really early.

Yeah, oh my God, I don't, I never once went to a 9am lecture. Right. He's still paying that student loan off. We have a guest today, don't we, Eve? We do, Jane. And it's the wildly successful, all her books are bestsellers, writer of historical fiction Philippa Gregory

and her new book is called Here's Eve It's called Royal Witch And it's set in 1420, the 15th century Right That took us a couple of minutes It took us a couple of times Make sure we got the right century

No I've read the first A couple of chapters of the book I confess I haven't finished it yet But honestly it's brilliant Because you just plunge straight into all the action of a 15th century court and the intrigue. Well, she's joining us today as well to do our book slot, which we normally do on a Monday on the live show.

And so we thought it would be quite nice to do both. So there'll be a bit of book recommendation from Philip Gregory. And you have to be so well read to be able to put together the books that she puts together because there's so much context. She does a lot of research. And actually, is it a good time to mention that we've got a great guest on tomorrow? It's a perfect time. Yes.

Who is it tomorrow? Delia Smith. Only Delia Smith. Now, Delia and I, I have interviewed her on Woman's Hour some years ago. I mean, she doesn't really need any introduction. Her husband has just died actually, and this is her kind of, she's sort of re-entering the public world, isn't she? And she's got a new book out, which is actually, talking of student movements, it's fiercely political. And some wise words in this new book of hers, not a cookbook, it's about how we really could, if we got together, properly change the world. So Delia Smith with us tomorrow on off air.

Very much looking forward to that. Let's end before we get to Philip Aquacoli. This is no time to develop an affected lisp. Or is it? Amy has written with news of male allyship. I had an uncomfortable moment on the train when a well-dressed older man aggressively stared me out because I asked if he wouldn't mind moving out of the way for me.

He proceeded to stare at me, pushing his face into mine in order to intimidate. I stared back and had the courage to say quite loudly, why are you trying to intimidate me? He looked taken aback and said, I'm not. A lovely young man then piped up. Actually, you are, and it's a bit creepy, to be honest, mate. The man looked away and ignored me for the rest of the 10-minute journey.

But that young man's intervention changed the entire situation on its head. We need the good men to stand up for us. They are out there. They are, Amy. I mean, it's really just that simple, isn't it? It is that simple. We shouldn't require any man to interview it on our behalf because other men shouldn't behave badly.

But there is no doubt that sometimes they do. Good to hear about that, Amy. Thank you very much. And thank you for all the lovely emails over the course of the weekend. Let's bring in our guest today, great novelist, Philippa Gregory. Hello, Philippa.

Hello, nice to be here. Well, it's really good of you to come in. And we were just talking about how medieval folk talked about the end of the world and you were telling me that actually they talked about it all the time well yes because they live in a world where there's a great deal of unexplained events all the time anyway

I mean we have events that are disturbing but we can explain them but we can't control them and I think that is the very circumstance in which you start looking for magical and demonic explanations because you're out of control and so the medieval world with even less science

than we have was permanently surprised by things that happened Right, of course that's true. They didn't have storms with names, did they, that they knew were coming? No, but they did believe that storms were caused by stormbringers who swung down from the clouds and directed the storms and that witches could cause storms by paddling in lakes and pools and that you could detect people doing that. Right, which brings us on to your latest book, which is called Royal Witch. Now, this is the story of Eleanor Cobham. She is a very young woman, but an ambitious one. and that's not said in a judgmental kind of way. She arrives at the court of Henry V.

And what ensues? Well, she makes her mind up that she's going to rise and get away from her small hometown in Surrey. And so she first is made of honour to another woman that nobody has heard of, Jacqueline of Heinalt, who was a freedom fighter in Holland and Zealand and the Netherlands and is completely forgotten in her own home, but she was really Joan of Arc for them

against the empire of Philip of Burgundy. Right, you know what? I was looking at the book at the weekend, and I realised that this is a tube station on the central line, isn't it? Oh, yes, of course it is. Yes, of course it is. And that was the only thing, I knew. I mean, isn't that ridiculous?

Absolutely. So she's not entirely forgotten. She's immortalised in a tube station, but nobody knows it's about her. So tell me more about her. Well, she was inherited Zealand, Holland, and quite a lot of northern France, the province of Heinlecht. Her capital city was Mons and she was squeezed by her uncle and her

terrible husband out of ownership of her properties and so she came to England to meet up with Henry V to ask it to borrow his army so she could invade her own country and win it back and he died during the time she was here making her plans and so she turned to his brother Humphrey Duke of Gloucester they married and he took his army and her and Eleanor Cobham her maid to invade her country and they won. And so you've got this kind of big triumphant moment whereupon Humphrey leaves her at that point and goes home with Eleanor of Cobham and Jacqueline loses ground and ends up as a guerrilla fighter in her own country trying to get her country back.

And amazingly she is captured by Philippa Burgundy. she's put under house arrest and she marries her jailer which means that he is accused in turn of treason to Philippa Burgundy. I mean this is why people read your books, Philippa because you this is just amazing. It's just

true. I mean this, I haven't even started on the fiction yet. This is genuinely what happened. And so she said that she would give up her life to save him. So she gives up her lands and Philippa Burgundy takes all the lands which is what he wanted in the first place and this is her last husband, her fourth husband. And she

marries him for love. Oh, well, that's good. Can I just say that is good? Also in this book is, well, Marjorie Jordemain. Now, this is another, I know you specialise, don't you, in women lost to history? It's something you're passionate about. Who was Marjorie? Marjorie is known really only because she appears at the trial of witchcraft that Eleanor Cobham is involved in, and she disappears from history when she's burned for being a witch. But she, of course, prior to that, She had a very, very successful business as a midwife and a herbalist and a healer at the royal court. So she was so successful that she went from her little village outside Westminster to be a sort of royal physician.

And then she's so successful that she helps Eleanor out with a spell. And it is that that is everybody's undoing. So Eleanor is accused of witchcraft. She almost certainly did something. She's accused with Roger Bolingbroke, who's an alchemist philosopher. he almost certainly did something and the evidence that's produced is of black mass and

trying to kill the king. Well, we are approaching Halloween, of course, and as ever with your books, you do an enormous there's a big section of bibliography at the end of the book where you just tell us about all the books that you've used in order to write Royal Witch.

And I think you've brought some of them in, haven't you? I brought just three of them. Okay, just tell me about the three. Okay, the first one is, Malcolm Gaskill it's called Worlds of Fear and Wonder and the subtitle is living with the supernatural past and present and it's one of the few really really good accounts of witchcraft in that Malcolm Gaskill doesn't believe in the power of magic and witchcraft but writes about it as if he suspends disbelief so what you get is a really clear account of what people were doing

what they hoped it would do and whether they believed it or not as opposed to the rather sort of snooty attitude that some historians take to witchcraft which this is all rubbish and these are stupid people. Well that's the important thing. We need to try to understand their world and what they didn't know because they couldn't know it. Exactly.

Storms, for example. And in any case everybody reads their horoscope today. Roger Bolingbroke is actually on trial for drawing up the King's horoscope. It doesn't really behave us to say like how foolish that is that they read it. We all read it. Everybody's, you know, everybody's got a thing

about knocking on wood or walking under ladders or black cats or or anything like that. We all live in worlds of signs and wonders. It's just we don't all share the vocabulary and share the discussion of them in the way that they did in the medieval world. So that book again, Worlds of Fear and Wonder by Malcolm Gaskell. Absolutely. Sounds interesting. Now, your second one. This is Sylvia Federici and it's called Caliban and the Witch. And I really love this book because it looks at the witch trials and the accusation.

of witches, not as it usually is looked at as a sort of rise of popular hysteria for who knows what reason. It looks at it as a direct result, trying to rid women of their power. So it comes at a time when the workings of the merchants, the workings of the mercantile economy is moving poor people off the land. So the women who have always lived really close to the land emotionally, but also practically fed off the land, harvested it, grazed it, you know, really, really their livelihood depends upon free access to the land. The enclosures come and they're cut off from the land. And in order to prevent the enormous riots, a lot of riots happen anyway, but in order to, in a sense, disempower the women, women start to be identified as witches. And you have this

really extraordinary numbers, thousands and thousands of women across Europe, accused of doing something that some of them have never even heard of. So the witchcraft accusations in a sense precede the trials. So first of all, people say there are witches and they are doing this and then they try women for it. So in that sense, it's an absolute anti-women campaign, which is extraordinarily successful in alienating women from men and alienating women workers from men workers.

Yeah, and alienating women from other women. And alienating women from other women. women. Yeah. Wow. If only things have changed. But actually, it still goes on, it's awful. What's conjuring spirits about? This is edited by, you tell me. This is edited by Claire Fanger, and I literally brought this in for you to make you happy. Because this is, I think, an extraordinary thing. It is an edited edition of genuine medieval spells used, which appear in genuine medieval spellbooks and were probably used by genuine medieval magicians. So Eleanor Cobham has a spell to create the death of the king.

It is in here. I recommend that you don't try it at home. Okay, no, I won't. Well, what I can recommend for you is a spell to incite love. Well, go on. Let's give that a whirl. So I won't take you all the way through it because it's quite a prolonged process. You have to have three doves. You have to kill them all at different places.

Place them in a special circle. And then you go back and you find what the demon, who is helping you, of course, has left in the circle. And the demon that you need for this particular task is Zagam. So remember that because you don't want any other floating by demon. It's Zagam's your man for this. And so you go back. You kill your dove. You tear your dove to pieces with your teeth at one threshold.

You go to another threshold. You summon Zagam. Kill your dove. Do the terry bit. next threshold, kill the dove, do the terry bit, make a circle and some magical shapes in the ground, which I can show you. And then you say, oh, Zagam, take this dove,

which I sacrifice to you. And then you go away, you come back. Zagam will leave an object in the middle of your circle, pick it up, take it away, keep it, it says, diligently and purely. And when you wish to show it to a woman, this is for a man, or presumably, Or a gay woman.

Or a gay woman. Yeah. When you wish to show it to a woman you love, she will love you beyond reason. Indeed, this is proven. Yeah, or you could just go on hinge. You could. Yeah, but that's more fun. But is that proven? Is that guaranteed?

No, it isn't. Will they love you beyond reason? Yeah, there you go. Philippa, thank you very, very much. It's lovely to see you. It always is. And your book, Royal Witch, no doubt it will be another storming bestseller. You put so much work into what you've done.

you do and you're a brilliant, brilliant writer. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Philippa Gregory and her new book, The Royal Witch, is out now and it will find its fans because they are many and varied and she is very, very knowledgeable. Join us tomorrow when Delia doesn't need a surname is our guest. Bye. Bye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on d a b or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury

and the executive producer is rosy cutler