Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Icicles gave her a thrill (with Michael Palin)

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

Jane's having some revelations about the podcast (2 years in) - not much gets past her! They also cover footballers protecting their genitalia, more local news and antibiotics abroad. Plus, national treasure Sir Michael Palin discusses the latest instalment of his diaries 'There and Back'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'The Trouble with Goats and Sheep' by Joanna Cannon. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And then there's something magic because when you undo the front and all the air seeps back in every time. You get the neighbours in. Every time. It's like a little party. Yeah, let's go have a drink. Just look at my duvet inflate. Hi, I'm Adam Vaughan, Environment Editor for The Times. At the 2024 Times Earth Summit, our discussion on the essential steps for a net zero transition will be set against a backdrop of the biggest election year in history. The governments voted in this year will face a crucial period for the sustainability agenda. This transition will be theirs to accelerate,

and all our futures will be affected by whether or not they do so. To book your ticket to this year's summit, head to timesurfssummit.com forward slash virtual. You know, it's only just dawned on me, is it two years in, that when we're off air, that's the podcast and when we're on air, that's the podcast, and when we're on air, that's the radio program. So just in case people don't know, we're on air on the radio, Monday to Thursday, 2 o'clock till 4 on Times Radio, and then the podcast is off air. What did you think it was about? I don't know, I just hadn't... I mean, I did know, but I just think we could make more of it. How long did it take you to key into what World of Sport was about? Well, to be honest, as someone who did occasionally have to watch World of Sport was about. Well to be honest, as someone who did occasionally have to watch World of Sport out of sheer desperation. There was a bit of sport adjacency going on. It was so boring

in the 1970s on a Saturday afternoon, let's be honest, particularly if the weather was inclement. You would have to resort to, it was Dickie Davis. It was Dickie Davis. And the ITV7, all the races, seven races, usually from one meeting. But do you remember about Dickie Davis? Because this won't surprise you at all, but when I was about seven years old, I didn't have a huge interest in the sport that was being shown. Well, it was wrestling, wasn't it? Yep. But there was something about the energy with which he delivered everything that I

did find very engaging. Very good presenter. So I quite happily sit through an afternoon of Dickie Davis age, late enough. What happened to him? Really decent sports host with a tash. With a tash. They've gone, haven't they? Well, I'm trying to think of other great tashes.

Mark Lawrenceon had a great tash for a while. I don't think he's not really doing it anymore. No? The tash for a while. I don't think he's not really doing it anymore. No. The tash is gone. If you are the proud owner of a moustache, increasingly I'm aware I've probably got one myself, but if you are properly growing a full-bodied, luxuriant moustache, tell us about it. Well, they're very fashionable at the moment for the younger man.

Oh, are they? Oh, they really are. I don't know how beards are, but I beards are. No, the moustache. The moustache on its own. I'm looking to Eve to confirm this because she's living in a fashionable part of London as well. So no beard, just the tash. And a big tash. And some of them are Magnum P.I. level. Good Lord. Yes. And Garner, the kind of twirly, oh that dicky bloke who does the chateau, he's got a twirly mustache hasn't he? I don't think we talk about him, although they deny the allegations of bullying.

And they've got a new series out. Well there we are then, can't be true can it? But it's not that kind of twirly waxy one, they are the proper, you know, big mustaches. Oh that reminds me, just while we're talking about Matters Television, I was at last night at this book club of mine. Yes, so just in case anybody's wondering, that's the book that we wrote together that you then went to give a talk about on your own. How was that work?

Well, funny enough, the conversation, I don't think we really got onto the book at all. There were a couple of pre-merchants. There were six of us there, five of us there, it was the last night at the local theatre. And one of the people present was somebody who had been very senior at the BBC and she did say that when she inherited quite an important job in BBC television and these were her words, I inherited a show and you might remember this called Celebrity Sleepover. Oh I don't remember that. No well the idea was that you just got a celebrity to come and spend the night.

But as she says they wouldn't make it now. Well somewhere they will. They will be doing exactly that. I know, but just the thought of you opening your front door and presumably you would be expected to recognise the celebrity. It would be really, really awful if you had no idea. That's just disturbing all round. Are you delivering a parcel or are you my celebrity? Anyway, it was not commissioned again. Do you often talk about our book? When I'm not around?

We didn't talk about it last night. Okay. Cheers says Jenny Edwards in Cheltenham. I just wanted to tell you that my dentist does have a TV on the ceiling and you can choose what you watch. I had a Saturday morning cooking programme on watching my favourite chef James Martin. Is he your favourite chef? No, he's not my favourite chef. I'm sorry Jenny, he's not my favourite chef though. Made such a difference when I sat through implant preparation. But he is very popular, James Martin, isn't he?

But we've had emails on the subject of James Martin that we couldn't read out. No. No, and I don't know where that leaves us. Probably a rather difficult ground. I was about to say, probably not going to book him as a guest. Unlikely.

He's probably not going to say yes if we do. Good news is we've got Michael Palin on this podcast. Oh, we have got Michael Palin. And he can always be booked, so that is very good. Yes, there's quite a lot of Root Canal stuff. Thank you for your sympathy and support this week. Paula says, I was awake long enough last night. She's one of those people who does tend to nod off ever so slightly when listening to us.

But I was awake long enough last night to hear Jane's Tale of Woe. It did strike a painful chord because we are currently touring France in our motor home and after two weeks away I suffered the same fate. Now I've been coming to France for years and it used to be that the pharmacist would hand out antibiotics like sweets and that was always the reputation of France wasn't it? That you could go into a chemist, they'd give you anything you wanted. Not the only reputation, but yes. It's one of the things. And also, we were always taught that they were obsessed with suppositories.

Various. That was their preferred route to administer the meds. Yeah. Do you know, I actually, I find it impossible to laugh about anything about France at the moment, because the... Well, yes, I know, but do you know what we... No, no, I really do though. I really do. No, well, I agree with you.

I know exactly what you're saying. And do you know what? That's what I've been thinking about whether or not we ought to reference it and I find it so excruciating and so sad and frankly terrifying. And I've just, that's all I've got to say. I can't think of anything else to say about it. No, I think when the case concludes. Yeah, maybe but it could be Christmas before that's all over.

We probably should have a chat about it. Yeah, well definitely but also you know that expression and to my shame I can't remember who came up with it, the banality of evil which was something that a very incredibly intelligent woman whose name I should remember, that was how she referenced Nazis after the Second World War. That's what applies here as well, isn't it? It's these everyday people. Anyway, I said I had nothing to say about it and now I've said things. Yeah, I don't know. I'd slightly challenge you on that actually. I think it's... I'm almost loath to put it down to human nature. Actually, I am loath to put it down to human nature.

Actually, I am loath to put it down to human nature. I think it is just something about groupthink, it's about misogyny, it's about entitlement, I think it's about loads of things. I almost don't want to give it the opportunity to just be a kind of floor in humankind. But you're right, let's save it until further down the line. But if you do, by the way, if you do have thoughts on all that, if it's upset you, well it can't not have upset you. If you do want to send an email in on it, we can keep everything

for later in the year. Anyway, let's return to the topic. I'm sorry for mentioning that, I felt I should. So I almost cried when the young lady behind the counter in France said, no, you need to get a prescription. Luckily in the town of Navonrex, where we were at the time, never heard of that, have you? Navonrex. How are you spelling that?

N-A-V-A-R-R-E-N-X. Oh, never heard of it. No. There was a doctor who took walk-in patients. So I trotted off with a map that the kind girl had given me. I got lost twice. I do have a poor sense of direction says Paula, but it was only half a mile away. I got there, I knocked on the door and a really stern lady doctor with a bad smokers cough gave me a prescription for 35 euros cash only. So after six days of penicillin and pain killers it is better but I will still

need to see my dentist when I get back I'm not looking forward to it. Paula do not delay see the dentist and get it sorted. But the other thing that I loved about that email is the fact that Paula admits to having absolutely no sense of direction but she's traveling around France in a motorhome. Of course that's where you need a fella who knows where he's going. Are you meant to be in Spain Paula? Actually as she said she's with her male partner I should never assume. Don't assume. No, she does just say we so it could be it, who knows but there's clearly someone other than Paula doing the navigating. Keep us posted Paula on all fronts. Anonymous in Sussex, I only have one tent-hog, Canadian down duvet but in summer I use a sheet

although I also have guest duvets, some of ones just seem pointless. After hearing the many duvet lady though I'm now questioning my life choices. Clearly I've been going wrong all these years and I'm planning to buy another but where do people store their many extravagant duvets? I don't have an airing cupboard. Sorry to hear about your teeth. What you need to do, Anonymous in Sussex, is buy those bags that you seal up and then you put your vacuum cleaner pipe on the front and it sucks out all of the air and they turn into tiny, weeny, flat little things.

Is that how you don't attract moisture? Because isn't there a problem with if you just bung a duvet under a bed in a bin bag, it might become a bit damp? Quite possibly. But no, I think you can suck nearly all of the air out. So I keep my spare duvets and stuff like that at my wide selection of eiter towns. Eyes down through the ages. Yep. I mean, they look horrible. So you stack them in a cupboard and they just look all kind of like melted plastic. And then there's something magic because when you undo the front

and all the air seeps back in every time. You get the neighbors in. Every time. It's like a little party. Go and have a drink? Just look at my duvet inflate. You mentioned Ida Dianna. That has made me think about the fantastic book we're reading for book club The Trouble with Goats and Sheep. I always think it's Sheeps and Goats. Goats and Sheeps. China Canon. Yeah. Because there's so much brilliant 1970s detail and there was just a brief reference in a bit I was reading the night before last about shop windows covered in orange cellophane and it all just came back to me.

I had forgotten that for reasons I still don't understand, occasionally shop windows would be dressed in just these bits of orange plastic? Well wasn't it to stop the sun damage? Was that what it is? I don't know. The stuff in the window. It absolutely happened. That must be the explanation. Hadn't thought about it since. But that's why I'm not a successful novelist or indeed a novelist because I do not retain that sort of magical detail that just lends authenticity to great books. Well, thank God we have people like John Cameron.

Yeah, no, well, quite. He writes it so, so beautifully. On the subject of writing and fantastic pieces of prose, we've had so much traffic about local newspapers and it's just delightful, actually actually really delightful to be able to celebrate them. This one is from Leslie, it's about the Shropshire Star. I'm thrilled to have the chance to participate in your call for local newspaper memories. I do indeed have some examples. Circa 1994, I'd made friends with a lovely bloke called Steve, our friendship formed by a chance meeting in the work canteen where we discovered our mutual interest in the local paper. Like many workplaces they operated the

pigeonhole system for mail and messages. If our canteen breaks failed to align we'd drop off our local paper highlights in one another's pigeonhole. Isn't that lovely? Are they together now? Please see below Steve's top pick from the classified ads of the Shropshire Star. It doesn't say, do you? Oh. Another classic attach where my dad's, my friend's dad featured in the Blackpool Gazette with his slippers. I'm not sure if either examples are particularly good for radio,

but we're going to give it a go. Yeah. We're going to give it a go because they are fantastic. So I'd forgotten this. Oh, I haven't, do you want, oh, here we go, here we go. My eyesight's not very good for all these tiny, tiny bits of newsprint. But the small ads and the stuff that people are selling, and either Steve or our correspondent has very carefully highlighted the things

that they're interested in or think the other one would be interested in. Six bin bags full of clothing, including two Coney coats and seven gentleman suits. That would go for 30 quid. I mean that's actually quite a lot. That is quite a lot. Good lord. Jeans skirts, size 14 and 16, five pounds each. Again, I mean. Poor black. Brazil design, pale pink and white with a hint of blue and green four and three quarter rolls of wallpaper oh right yes so that's very specific eight pounds and one pair of white flat shoes size eight stuff like that is great but the the the best one optimism with the prices well i thought this was both quite funny but also quite sad yeah but but the headline is boot goes in over offensive slippers.

Pensioner told to keep footwear off doorstep and there's a picture of said pensioner holding up the offensive slippers. And here comes the story. A letter of complaint over a pair of smelly slippers has raised a stink in a black pool block of flats. Pensioner John Matkin was left fuming after receiving an official letter asking him to take his slippers off the doorstep of his flat. Mr Matkin, 76, whose wife died last year, was astounded when informed by the flats manager that other residents considered his footwear to be past its sell-by date. But I suppose the point in sending it in and keeping it is that that is absolutely what a local newspaper was there for.

It was to tell you about the small stories that were actually just big stories to the people who lived around John and John himself. The sad bit there is when John explains that he left his slippers on the step as a kind of security measure. Yes. Because he thought it would deter burglars. And it's at that point that you know obviously a burglar with a keen sense of smell would have been completely repulsed and wouldn't have gone near his flat but it just makes you sad for John. Oh I mean I think it's a very telling piece about other people's feelings of outrage.

Yes. We're often on the receiving end of aren't't we? It's like the old, you know, the things that go round about neighbourhoods, suspicious youths, you think, oh, dear God, watch out for. And I haven't told my story, have I, about, I've been wondering whether I should mention this, and I've forgotten it now, I've remembered it again. The other afternoon when I was at home on a Friday when we're not working, a doorbell rang and I went to the door and there was a young man on the step and he spanned me a yarn. You know, he'd been with his dad in hospital and his dad was having chemo and he needed 25 quid to pay for a taxi. Well, you know, I wasn't born yesterday and I've lived in London long enough to know that it probably was a scam,

but my daughter was in the house, the older one, and she thought I was being mean. So she said I should give him some money. And I said, okay, so I shut the door, we had a spirited discussion. I've because I like a lot of people, I don't have cash in the house, but I usually have a few coins. So I scrambled together 10 quid in coins and slightly reluctantly opened the door again he was still there handed it to him and he sort of looked underwhelmed and went off did say thank you said he'd pay me back and I went right to Robin and off he went sort of shambling down the street I say shambling he was relatively well dressed in fact he was wearing expensive clothing. He didn't look well, let's put it that way. 24 hours pass and I've forgotten about it really. And then the doorbell rang on the Saturday afternoon,

him again. And he said, I recognized you by the color of your door. And I'm sorry, I owe you money. And I went, what? He said, I know, you never thought you'd see me again. And I said, well, I must be honest, I didn't know. And he said, well, here's your 10 pounds. Whoa. Gave me the 10 quid back, note this time. And I said thank you and off we went. So obviously, I'm just being completely honest,

I thought that was a dud tenor. So because I needed something, I went around to the corner shop to buy something just to see whether he'd accept it. And it was absolutely fine. And I bought what I needed and then I came home. So that, it's just a story that has really, really made me think.

Do you know what my terrible cynical lived in London, two long heads, immediately thinks, is it just the start of... I haven't seen him since. A scam or a what's it or a... I don't know. Casing your joint or a... All of those things have crossed my mind. Do you know if he knocked on anybody else's door? And she also got her money back. Oh okay, so how much money did he make in the street that day? Well he got 10 quid from me and 25 quid from her. But paid you both back? Yeah.

And so the reason was he needed a cab? Well, that's what he said. Gosh, I don't know where to go with that because I am so, so... Well, the other thing I know should be clear about this, he said to me on his second visit when he returned the money, I'm really sorry, I'm a drug user. So, so he, and I said, look, you know, we will, we've all had various, I think I said something ridiculous, like we've all had bad life experience, I don't know, I tried to think of something to say, because frankly, I wanted him off the step, I'll be absolutely honest with you.

But I only sort of tell the story because it's had the ending that no one expected, including me. And I, I am cynical like you, I've lived in London long enough to be, I think wherever you live actually, and I don't know why I mention London in particular, we know these people are around and about, but you know, sometimes I do want to think the best of people. Yeah. Gosh, what do I think about you? So I mean, I think it's good of you to have given him some money in the first place because also... Is it though?

Oh, I don't know, Jane, because sometimes... That's why I'm raising it really, because I don't know. But don't you think you're standing at the front door of a house that clearly says you've got 10 pounds and 10 pounds to you isn't going to break you? No. But are you doing wrong in feeding somebody's habit? Well, that's the question. And if he's trying to be honest and he's got a conscience and he's come back and paid you back? I don't know. I mean I think that is a remarkable ending

to a story that usually goes completely the other way. But my cynical head thinks, oh gosh I hope he doesn't come back and back and back and back. Well he hasn't and it's been a couple of weeks now. But yes that also crossed my mind. Anyway, as you're mentioning it and you know, you've had a similar experience. There'll be lots of other people out there with similar stories, I suspect. Yeah. Do you know, I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts as well about the, I mean, there is, there is a really very, very well done scam with youngish people who come round, flash a card at you, say that they're part of a rehabilitation program, tell you that they've been inside and they're really trying to turn their life around and would you like a £17.50 scourer and all

of that and they've become incredibly threatening in our area and I always bought stuff from them because they're absolutely tapped into. And that's a scam? I think you have to be very very careful. I think there is definitely, definitely people who are impersonating the good people who are trying to get back on their feet, but in a really aggressive way now. I think sometimes it wears you down a bit, doesn't it? Yes, yeah. Anyway, let us know whether either of us have done right or wrong or, well we don't know that's what we're discussing it. It's the beauty of the podcast isn't it really?

It is. Thought-provoking ramble there. Your response is please to Jane O'Fee at Times. Radio. Regarding local newspapers, I thought I'd share memories of the years I spent at the journalistic coal face alongside a much missedmissed sub-editor who I can best describe as having a personality like hapless naive characters played by Joyce Grenfell in the St Trinian's films. I'll call her M and as chief sub she was responsible for writing the headlines on our often poor excuses for stories to make sure that they fitted the column widths available. Em could write like a dream and her romantic Barbara Cartland type stories were often published in Woman's Own but her pre-political correctness awareness and naivety was

off the scale. Even in those days we dreaded, brackets he quickly enjoyed, opening the paper on publication day to see what Em headlined pearls awaited. So I won't do the the first one Gina if that's okay by you, just because I don't want anyone to get upset. But Every Tug I Pull Is a Joy. That was a story about elderly church bell ringer. And there was Icicles Gaper a Thrill. That was about a visitor to Britain who'd never experienced a proper frozen winter. Talks without a larynx. Talks without a larynx. Yes, that's about someone who underwent an early voice box operation. But my favourite remains, not one of M's headlines, but the time she was on the stone

where the world-weary macho compositors assembled the fiddly page layouts ready to go on the presses. Time was always of the essence and blank spaces on the layouts were anathema. So faced with such a gap and minutes to go before the presses began rolling, a frantic M shrieked at the assembled printers, has anyone got eight inches? The printers who rarely cracked a smile were bent double. Poor M never did get it. Thank you.

Right, OK, brilliant. him never to get it. We should thank Glyn who has sent us some lovely badges this week back in my good books. I think I have banned Glyn but then let him back in. He's definitely back in now. He sent a Tufty Club badge and thank you I'm definitely going to wear that and also the what what is that? That's one of the, what I want to call it, a Womble, it's not a Womble, it's a, what's that? No, it's the Zippy and Bongo and Bungle Bounce. Bungle Bounce. Bungle and what's it? Is it George?

It's DJ Zippy. It's DJ Zippy. Yep. From Rainbow. Thank you. Right. That's the word I was searching for there. Difficult word to remember. Very difficult. Yeah. Now, thank you for all your emails this week on a whole range of subjects. Thank you to Diane who said she had root canal treatment

when her children were five and three. Frankly, it was absolutely fantastic. The rubber dam, lots of tugging, practically a spa day compared to looking after the kids. We get it. Absolutely. I just wish my kids were five and three and I could approach it in that way next week. Should we do the tote winners before we get onto our guests? Let's do tote winners. So Julie Mortimer, Hazel, Kennedy and Vicky, Louise France, Collette Norbury and Kate,

Pam Ridgeway and Donna, Alice Bennett, Kirsty Besterman and Debbie Monroe is a late entry. I love the fact that Debbie just emailed to say she didn't really have a reason for getting a tote bag but she does need somewhere to put her knitting and crochet current projects and look she sent us this appalling picture look at this mess look at this mess and also I don't know where you're going with that palette. Um, well, how, no, sort of mossy green, purple, beige, bright red, yellow. What we call a lot going on there. There's a lot going on there, Debbie, and if you could send us details of what you're hoping it will look like in the end.

Don't make us a dress with those colours, but thank you. No. Can I just throw in a quick query as well? Why does a male bicycle have a cross thing on it and a female bicycle not anymore? Because it used to be because women wore skirts and so they couldn't hoik themselves over a bar across the thing. But I took my son's bike out the other day because, for complicated reasons, actually too boring to explain and And I'm aware of the the terrible injuries you can do to yourself as a woman if you're involved in a little bit of a crunch

And you fall on there happen to a friend of us. No very very very very no and honestly not remotely funny No, not funny, but the same thing would happen to a man. Well, you would think yeah Yeah, I have a perineum too. Well, it would be incredibly painful. Well, they've got a lot going on down there. Have they? So why is that still a thing? I don't know.

I mean, you meant, you know, this has nothing to do with what you just said, but it's a really good question and someone will know the answer. I do find it, I still find it funny when male footballers protect their genitalia. There's a free case when they're in the wall. They take it so seriously. Oh my god. Grow up. I mean look I'm sure it's painful but it does actually suggest that perhaps their bodies simply aren't suited to sport and they'd be far better over at home doing the cooking. So do the ladies protect their bosoms? Well, we won't know the answer to this. I'm not sure who listening will know the answer.

But breasts are not as tender, are they? As testicles? When a heavy football is aimed at them at speed. Should I know? I don't know. I know you won't know. I certainly don't know. So, and who would know? God knows. Right. Hi, I'm Katie Prescott, Technology Business Editor at The Times. On the 1st of October, I'll be hosting our annual tech summit in London. We're bringing together a stellar lineup of tech leaders in the room and on the stage, including Demis Hesabis, the founder of Google DeepMind, and Peter Kyle, the UK's new tech secretary. You can sign up at the following address, times-event.com forward slash tech summit hyphen virtual. I hope you can make it.

Let's move on and bring in Michael Bay. We've covered a lot of ground today, we really have, even by our standards. Yes, let's bring in Michael. His latest volume of diaries is out now, it's his fourth, they take us from 1999 to 2009. You may already know that Michael Palin has a knighthood, he's travelled the world in 80 days and then some. He's written two novels, is a python, and he's part of our national cultural landscape. Barry Cryer once said he thought he was too nice to succeed in the nasty, hard world of showbiz, but he absolutely has and he seems to be indefatigable. Can't say that word, it may have been wrong.

This must be your sixth decade of work, Michael. Is it still fun? Welcome to the programme. Thank you. Yeah, yes, it's always fun. You know, it's kind of, well, I just enjoy the world. I enjoy the sort of things what can be done and what you can learn and what you can try out

and new challenges and all that. And I think if I can still do that at the age of 81, that's um it prevents the aging process. Yeah I'd say you've won if you can still do all of that at the age of 81. I thought it was an interesting thing for Barry Cryer to say and I know that your response to it in the diary is to just say that you think the reason why you have been able to succeed is that you kind of created two worlds, one being the world of Monty Python and the other being the world of travel. So you didn't really have to mix with the sharp elbows of the business all the time. No, I think that was it.

That's why I remember Barry's remark very well. It's quite shrewd because I wanted the work to always speak for itself. The idea of being a celebrity and getting into the competitive world where other people sort of used you or showed you off or whatever. I think that's where it gets a little bit dangerous. And I felt I was very lucky that I was able to do work,

which I had initiated, well, not I had initiated, but I'd been there right at the beginning. And I had my own idea of what I wanted to do and how I could do it. So I didn't need to get into the hurly-burly quite as much. Yeah, but the hurly-burly really welcomes you, doesn't it? Because one of the absolute joys of reading your diaries is that you brush up against the great and the good of our cultural world.

I mean, it seems to be on an almost nightly basis. So you're very much embraced, aren't you, by the rest of show business? Yeah, I think people, again, don't judge you by the work you've done. And clearly, I was lucky to get to become part of the Python team. And that, you know, that attracted a lot of attention from people who I think had pretty good taste, pretty good ideas, and liked alternative things and all that. And then, you know, I was later on ripping yarns. I suppose that was something which attracted a lot of people because it was different and it wasn't trying to be sort of, it was a new kind of sitcom. And then the travel, which came a bit out of the blue. But I, you know, I found that I was quite good at it.

I didn't expect to be able to do the number of series I did. But I think that meant a lot to people and that drew in another audience. So they're all people who felt that whatever else I did, I did it quite well, if that's not sounding too arrogant. No, not at all. And I love the qualifier of quite, because I think we could also say very Michael. Did you keep a diary as a kid? Yes, yes I did. I kept diaries at school which were actually not unlike these diaries. It was quite a bit about rain and all that and you, sort of games of football being sort of being brought to a halt because of the weather or someone had been beastly or whatever. And usually someone had been sick somewhere.

I don't know why. Something I really, in the diaries, I talk about going to a local school, which I was a patron, and, you know, hearing what people sort of talked about, the questions they asked me, you know. Have you ever, and one little girl said,

have you ever seen anyone be sick and eat it? Well, have you? No, no I haven't actually, I don't go to the right restaurants. Okay. I'm not the only person to have noticed some of the details in the book about John Cleese in particular and the rather delicious detail of you being relieved that once when you and Helen go to dinner at his house, it's John Cleese's wife who comes to answer the door instead of the maid, which had been his practice for a while and I believe you thought to be rather pompous. It is delicious details like that that really, you know, make you want to power on through

as the reader. But how much of that do you ever have to run past your friends or worry about putting in? Well, I had to take some decision when I did the first diaries, which was, you know, I actually talk about publishing the first lot of diaries in this set of diaries. So it was back in 2004, whenever I published the first lot, and I took a decision which was not to run the diaries past people I was talking about, because that seemed to blunt the whole point of it. If I let people have a look and see things, was I there for admitting some guilt that I'd written this? Was I sort of trying to be sort

of careful and avoid legal action? I mean, avoided legal action by making sure that the lawyer read all the text. And if there was anything truly that I could be taken to court about, he would flag that up. Apart from that, I just felt, well, I hadn't been truly nasty about anybody. And I've always sent the copies of the diaries to my fellow pythons and have done with this lot as well because they're all my close friends or were my close friends anyway and we worked closely together and I sent it to them and I sent it to other friends I have. There are some really lovely details about your friendships with them and again John

Cleese in particular. I really liked your description of him as a kind of hulking monster when you went to visit him after was it a hip operation and he was dressed in a great big bathrobe and on crutches and you were in this tiny hospital room together and is it is it the kind of friendship where he would come and visit you if you were the one in hospital with a bathrobe on crutches? I don't remember it. Well, I was never in hospital with a bathrobe on crutches. I don't know.

I mean, yeah, John was a good friend and he was concerned and he would keep in touch. But then I think he had quite a busy life, probably busier than my life, and it took him off to the States for a long time. So it wasn't as easy for us to get together. But yeah, yeah, I mean, John, John was very concerned about all of us really, and how we got on and our health and what we were doing and all that. So yeah, yeah, I mean he would have he would have perhaps come and seen me but He didn't Let's talk about the travel and and it's it is very interesting in the book I think think as a reader you know that you're heading towards the dreadful date of 9-11 2001 and in fact your experience of it

may have been so very different to many other people witnessing it on television or picking up a newspaper the next morning because you didn't see it happen you were away filming in the Sahara, weren't you? Yes, in a very inaccessible, I mean, a lot of the Sahara is inaccessible. We were right in the heart of the Sahara in the country called Niger, which is the 144th poorest country in the world and has a sort of average annual wage of $850. I mean, it's so utterly different to the West. But that's where we were in a small town called Agadez. And that's where news of what happened eeked through. I mean, it wasn't as I imagine it would have been at home everywhere instantly on every single part of the

media. You know, you just had to wait for a phone to ring or a satellite phone to make contact with home. So I learnt about it in a kind of rather frightening way because I just got word that this had happened and then word that people were very anxious that it would spread to Paris and London, and this was not just going to be in New York, the whole basis of the sort of Western world was under threat and all that. And there's nothing we could do, and there were very few people we could ring at that time. So it was really, you were being kind of, the material was being sort of served to you in tiny dribs and drabs. And it wasn't for another seven days before we saw any photos of which,

you know, the media at home was absolutely full. Yeah. And can I ask you, I don't want to be ghoulish about this at all, but I think as soon as you mentioned 9-11 to most people, we see that horrible visceral image of the Twin Towers. It's absolutely where our minds immediately go. So when you didn't know what those images were, had you pictured it to be that?

Did it surprise you when you actually saw pictures of the event? Yes, I suppose certain aspects did. I mean, I heard what had happened, that planes had crashed into the towers, the towers had fallen, but nothing quite prepares you for the pictures themselves. And it's almost like it was like a diagram, that very clear morning, and the planes coming in. And, and it was like sort of, it didn't seem real, it all seemed too clear, too concise. And I suppose that was what I was very surprised about later.

I think I thought it would be much more complicated and over a longer period and all that. And knowing how quickly the towers fell was just something that I hadn't realized when I was away. I think you write some incredibly prescient things in the weeks and months afterwards, what my kids would call solid, Michael, solid stuff. There's one entry on Sunday October 7th 2001 where you write,

The hawks have won, every life destroyed and collateral damage will be another martyr, a chip off the smooth surface of America's moral superiority, and offering propaganda on a plate with the smooth surface of America's moral superiority and offering propaganda on a plate with the spectacle of the world's richest country bombing the world's poorest. That's talking about the allied attack on Afghanistan that had begun. When you're actually writing this as a diary, is that exactly what you wrote on that night or do you then go back and I don't want to say edit it because that sounds a bit pejorative but is this absolutely your thought on that night? Oh yeah that's absolutely my thought on

that night. I never go back and change anything in the diary at all. I think that that's the value of the diary is what I felt on that particular day. I started to compromise that value by saying, well, change a bit here, I'll get a bit more angry there. The diaries would be completely invalid and would be far less satisfying. So that is what I felt on that particular day.

And the intensity of one's feelings depends on you know certain days it's one thing certain days it's another the Diaries are always kind of contradicting themselves you know one day I'm saying no more traveling I love Britain I love the countryside I I think the beautiful place I'm never going to any more travels and the next day I'm booking a journey to six-part series in Brazil I mean it's completely that's the wonderful thing about dark diaries. What else do you learn about yourself from the diaries? Because you're in this unique

position of you feel something, you see something, you do something, you write it down, but then you publish them as well. So at some stage you've got to reread it all, you won't be reading it in the same way that we're reading it. So what do you learn about yourself in that? Well I learned that I moan more than I ever thought I did. I wasn't grumbling about something rather. And very often it's my own inability to produce the work I want to produce. And I suppose you kind of look back on the work I've done, and it's been reasonably successful in most areas. And yet the actual, I was reminded from the diaries, the amount of self doubt, how things would work out, what people would think of what I was doing. And that, you know, life isn't just sort of, well,

setting down, settling down to do what you know you can do and doing it and then being judged on it. It's full of contradictions, full of sort of doubts and sort of, you know, assertions, which turn out to be completely right or wrong. I think it's just that I felt, well, this is not a smooth progress in life. Life is really quite complicated. There are moments when you take completely wrong decisions,

and other moments when you choose the right person to go with and something works out. But the kind of hit and miss of it is something which I felt very strongly reading them. Steve is one of our listeners listening to us from Vancouver this afternoon and he would like to know where you go on holiday. That's a bit personal. Why should you want to know this? Michael, we're talking about volume four of your diaries. We've got personal. We have got personal. Yes, we've got personal.

Yes, because actually that's quite a good question because when we were initially editing the first volume of diaries, I had a very good editor called Ian Truin who'd edited Alan Clarke's diaries and all that, and he looked at all the stuff I'd done. He said, well the first thing it could go to slim it down is all your holidays. Don't worry about holidays. So in fact I don't mention holidays much in the diaries really because there's so much else going on. I go at the moment, the family all go to Majorca once a year. we all get together. I've been with my wife on city breaks in places like New York and Paris and Antwerp. So I mean, I don't go on long holidays because I travel so much, so it feels like sort of I'm seeing the world.

And Helen, bless her, was never very keen on me, never very keen on me, never very keen on going long journeys for holidays. She just wanted to get somewhere comfortable and stay there, which was very sensible. Yeah, very sensible woman. And final question comes from Steve who is listening in Maidenhead. I'll be very interested to hear Michael's take on how much he feels Britain has changed over the last 25 years. Is it still a case of who you know rather than what you know? Looking at the world of

politics, journalism, law, medicine or the media it seems to me that perhaps we haven't moved on quite as much as we might like to think. No, I don't think we have moved on a lot but I think we, well, I just think there are, you know, different sort of players in the game now and social media is a very big player and I'm not on social media. I don't have time during the day to get involved in what's happening all over the world, but I do feel that solo voices now can be heard and, you know, there can be fairly uncontrolled, you know, attitudes and feelings and positions sort of on social media, which I think probably wouldn't have been

quite the same then. I think there was a kind of feeling of sort of, I don't know, how would I describe it, sort of care for what you said and be careful of the results of what you say. Whereas nowadays it seems that it's most important just to make a big noise, shout at people, get angry, then you'll get coverage and I think that's what I feel has changed quite a bit. Michael Palin, so it's the fourth volume of his diaries. These are called There and Back. They span from 1999 to 2009. And he's such an interesting guy, isn't he, to talk to. And I find that idea of writing down your thoughts every day really admirable but I also don't

understand how you can bear to then publish them because it's such a private thing to do isn't it just you and the page that you then make so public so I just I wouldn't I would never I would never do that. Well you know I was keeping a diary I've stopped now and do you know what I find it I'm much happier. Are you? I would never be able to do that. Well, you know, I was keeping a diary. I've stopped now. And do you know what? I find it much happier. Are you? I actually found it a real chore. Everybody says, oh, it's a real chore, but you'll really benefit.

Well, it was a chore and I didn't feel I had benefited. Well, I mean, there's the financial benefits. Well, if you get them published. But I mean, like you say, that wasn't going to happen. My teenage diaries are an endless source of amusement. But even they can be a bit depressing too, to be honest. So I don't know. People get to a very interesting topic.

Let us know, does doing a diary honestly help? And if so, they call it journaling. Journaling, it's journaling. Eve would call it journaling. But the point of, but that's the point, isn't it? That journaling is meant to be very helpful because then you get out the stuff that you're, you know, maybe that's slightly kind of clogging up your brain. But it's the publishing of the private detail that I just find remarkable.

Well, yeah, OK. And just about what people, you know, what he thinks about other people. And I think sometimes it's kinder to never know, actually. Although having said that, some of my descriptions of Boris Johnson are quite funny in my diary, if I say so myself. He's different. He's different, okay. Right.

Well, we've a lot of subjects there for you to react to or totally ignore. But we look forward to reconvening next week. Can I just put in a plea? We don't want too many personal descriptions of just how much it does hurt when something happens to your testicle area. We can imagine a level of pain, but it's always very difficult comparing between sexes. My bosoms hurt more than your balls. I don't think we want to have a whole episode on that. I suppose the mystery, and I think we did discuss this once with a guest, is nobody quite knows why testicles hang outside the human body it's a bit of a design flaw because well because they are so vulnerable I think it's just to make us laugh

have a good couple of days Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.