Off Air... with Jane and Fi - If I blink twice come and get me

Episode Date: November 3, 2022

Only one month into the new show and already one listener is beginning to worry about Jane and Fi's professional and personal relationship?As the cost of living crisis continues to worsen the Managing Director of Iceland, Richard Barker, discusses what the supermarket chain is doing to help their customers.And as we continue to reflect on the removal of troops from Afghanistan, documentary maker Matt Heineman talks about his new work, Retrograde, filmed from a unique perspective on the front lines.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Off Air with me, Jane Garvey. And me, Fee Glover. And we are fresh from our brand new Times Radio show, but we just cannot be contained by two hours of live broadcasting. So we've kept the microphones on, grabbed a cuppa, and are ready to say what we really think. Unencumbered and off air. Now, it's always lovely to hear from you and we've got some interesting emails to read later.

Also, I enjoyed the part of our radio show today here at Times Radio when we discussed Hangxiety with Jane Malkerins of the Times magazine. We had a preview copy. You can read it on Saturday. Because Hangxiety is the fog of despair that can descend the morning after. I certainly get it. Have you always got it? Or is it one of those things that's crept up in middle age?

Never been a big drinker Never been able to really process alcohol terribly successfully Whilst, like a lot of people Needing alcohol occasionally To get me through an evening And more than that, I enjoy a drink But I probably only enjoy one drink I just wish I had the wit to stop at one drink. I have to say the number of

times that I've met you the day after. Yes, I know. And you've said, I just can't believe I had three glasses. But it's only that you've only ever had two or three glasses. I've never, ever, ever a really massive drinker. I just I think actually often when you become a parent, you just have to pack it in. Yeah, I packed it in for a long time after kids. You don't have the option. Yep, totally, totally. And in fact, I gave up booze altogether for a year because I just couldn't be bothered when the kids were small. It brought me no joy and just the sleep. You don't want to mess with your sleep.

Oh, no, never. Because it's just simply a fact that you sleep better when you've not had any kind of alcohol at all. But, I mean, to go back to the middle-aged anxiety, it's a thing. And if you get hangovers in your 20s, by the time you get to my age, it's just grim. It's like wading

through a sea of really past its best custard the next day when you've had too much to drink. You just feel rancid. Yeah, you feel really down. Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think it's interesting to identify something different that's happening. Because I remember my hangovers from my 20s and 30s. Some of them were, you know, just ridiculous.

But they weren't accompanied by some kind of psychological change, actually. And I think drinking in my now mid 5050s it just it just would be so I like the fact that I always love reading about something where you go that's me yes that's me so it's good peace and we should be aware actually I guess people listening to off-air will often be those people who haven't been able to listen to the live radio show I thought you're going to say people listening to offer I'll be completely drunk someone will absolutely no sense at all and just to give you an idea of the Times Radio live show, it's two hours, three till five, of a mix of the very serious.

We do do all the big news stories of the day with informed opinion. But then we're also allowed to waddle around in the reeds of trivia. The reeds of trivia. Yes. Yes, OK. I agree with that. And we had some juxtapositions on the programme today as well, didn't we? Yeah, well, we did.

Because we were talking at the end of the programme to Tony Turnbull, The Times' food editor, about very, very expensive tinned fish. And he brought in, to delight us, a little cup of cockles that cost £56. I really couldn't believe that. You couldn't you ate the i can't try a cockle certainly not at work three cockles today before today never had a cockle in my life do i can't really do tin fish on duty but i did it today but we were talking about this very very kind of high-end stuff that's being served and the in the previous, we talked about the cost of living crisis and the fact that the free school meals campaign is now being backed by a lot of people to be extended throughout the

holidays. You know, there are estimated to be about 1.4 million kids who are still not getting a hot, nutritious meal who are desperately in need of that. So, you know, we've got different ends of the spectrum going on. And Richard Walker is the managing director of Iceland. And he came on to tell us a little bit more about what his supermarket is doing and why he's backing that free school meals campaign. If every kid who's in a family who's in receipt of universal credit was given a free school meal that would equate to about 500 million pounds in the first year and do you have any idea how that would balance out with savings because there are always savings aren't there uh to be made perhaps in terms of health or missed days off school all those other things things that happen when a kid becomes ill through bad nutrition.

Yeah, I mean, you're exactly right. You know, if we're to succeed long term as a nation, sort out our chronic productivity problem, our growth problem, we need to make sure we've got a healthy, engaged, focused, happy school population who have got decent prospects, including the most vulnerable kids. school population who have got decent prospects, including the most vulnerable kids. And in terms of return on investment, I can't think of anything better than that, to invest in the ability of young kids to concentrate and learn in school. So we all know that we're going to be facing cuts, they've been described as eye-watering already, so perhaps this isn't going to happen. I know that plenty of people listening this afternoon will be already saying, well, look,

I mean, you're a food supplier. Why don't you do something more directly than just support somebody else's campaign to change the free school meals programme? Yeah, no, that's a very fair point. And there's two elements to that. I mean, 500 million is a lot of money. But in the context of, I don't know, 100 billion that they're spending on HS2 I can think of better places to spend the money but secondly yeah it is absolutely not all down to government it is on the private sector on business as well to do whatever we can to try and support our customers because we've got five million customers a week and many of them are on universal credit many of them have kids who are missing out on preschool meals. And therefore, we're trying to do everything we can as a business through a range of kind of

tactical promotions and activities and food hacks and ideas to support our customers through the cost of living crisis. So give us some examples of those things. Yeah, so £1 meals are very important to our core customer. And so we've held the price of all of those through this year into next year. We've actually introduced 50 more one pound lines. And we used to make 25% profit on that. Now we'll lose about 15% profit. So it's a loss leader, but it's the right thing to do. Sorry, one of those figures passed me on.

You used to make a 25% profit on a one pound meal. Yeah, yeah. And now, you know, we're losing money on it. But, you know, we think it's the right thing to do to invest, to make sure that our customers can access that £1 price point. We partnered with the Rossay Foundation, who are a pension provider, to give £30 vouchers to the most vulnerable pensioners because pensioner poverty is a big issue. to give £30 vouchers to the most vulnerable pensioners because pensioner poverty is a big issue. We're giving a 10% discount to anyone over the age of 60 in our stores every Tuesday. We're promoting air fryers because they have the ability

to save a household £600 a year compared to using a conventional oven. There's a whole range of different things that we can do, but we need to do more and we're working day and night to do so. Just on those one pound meals, what are those meals and are they hand on heart nutritious? Oh, yeah. No, of course they are. I mean, you know, we can talk about like 10 pound chilled ready meals at M&S, but there is nothing wrong with high nutritious ready meal. If it's frozen, it saves you money because we have longer supply chains. We work very closely with our suppliers.

You can also save, eliminate food waste, which is a big cause of waste in household budgets because you use what you want and then put the, because it's not all just ready meals, you know, fruit, veg, you know, all sorts of things, chips, etc. Put it back in the freezer so you can budget better through the week. And absolutely, I mean, you know, our products are great and we're proud of all of them. Interestingly, we also have a luxury range, which is higher price points, between £3 to £5 for ready meals. They're trading very well because a lot of customers are trading down from more expensive supermarkets and that's an entry price point for them to shop with us.

Have your rates of shoplifting gone up? Yeah, they have. I get a serious incidence report every Monday and it is noticeable. You know, it's always been an issue, but it is noticeable that it is going up. I don't think it's right to make value judgments on on the people doing it although some of them are violent incidents and and you know our staff safety is paramount but clearly people are really struggling they're struggling to make ends meet and um you know I think obviously with the news today it's it's going to get worse we're seeing that. It's going to be a very tough winter. So we've got to be mindful of that. Yeah. I mean, it must place you in such a difficult

position when you are running a shop. And as you've demonstrated, you are trying to do something with good conscience to help your customers. I mean, without wanting some kind of a free-for-all on your shelves, does Iceland change its policy on prosecutions? If you know that some of your customers are taking stuff just because they need to keep their kids stomach full that day? No, I mean, we're not a charity and we can't we can't sort of condone just giving away or people taking food. It's very important that we have processes in place that firstly protect our staff, but secondly, protect our stock. And actually, our job is to work day and night to provide the best quality food at the cheapest possible price. And there's nothing wrong

with cheap food so that our 5 million customers a week can feed their families. How far can you take your profit margin down? Well, we're going to lose money this year and we lost money last year. Part of that is because of input cost inflation. You know, the cost of goods that we're buying, price increases from our suppliers and there'll be more to come as well. But part of it is operational cost. Things like our electricity bill, which you can imagine is horrific because there's a lot of fridges and freezers. And, you know, business faces the same issues that consumers face. So, you know, that's that's where we're at. But actually, we're a private family business.

We've got deep cash reserves. We'll be OK and we'll get through it. And actually, I think it's incumbent on any business to probably accept lower profit margins because we've got to support our customers through this cost of living crisis. That was Richard Walker, the Managing Director of Iceland. Yes, I don't doubt his commitment to the free school meals programme. The £1 frozen meal. I know he said it was a loss leader. Do you think he ever eats one of them himself?

I don't know. I'm sure if we asked him he would say that he did and that he thoroughly enjoyed them i did look them up they're things like lasagna cottage pie okay fish pie uh uh you know you stick them in the microwave so you don't need to worry about paying for putting the oven on yes i mean yeah so the oven or micro microwavable obviously they are frozen they're quite big portions. You know, I was amazed actually that they used to make 25% profit on them at £1

a pop. So his argument for that was very interesting. It's a very long supply chain of its frozen food because elements of it are frozen for years at a time. I know, I know. And a few listeners had texted in to say, you know,

your profits are going to be down. Boo hoo. But you know what, Jane, I think anybody who's doing something in a time of crisis, he's running a business. So what's the point in wishing that he goes under if they're trying to serve their customers and, you know, not go out of business and therefore lots of people lose jobs, I think is to be commended. People lose jobs, I think, is to be commended. Welcome back to Off Air with Jane and Fi. And our interview of Thursday afternoon was with a film director, documentary maker. Well, he's done feature films, hasn't he? In fact, he did the big one about Marie Colvin with Rosamund Pike. And now he's done a documentary called Retrograde about the American withdrawal from Afghanistan. His name is Matthew Heineman. And we talked to

him and asked why he'd wanted to make this very specific film in that very troubled country, Afghanistan. The genesis, I guess, in some sense for the film was a somewhat cliched question that I had in my mind of why we fight wars and pondering it quite deeply about five or six years ago and began an exploration within the U.S. military trying to seek that answer. It led to conversations with U.S. Army Green Berets and spent about two years gaining access to them. And by the time that happened, it became clear that, wow, actually, we could maybe tell the story about the end of the war in Afghanistan. And then COVID happened. And I was like, oh, wow, we're actually might be on the last U.S. deployment to Afghanistan. And so that's what ended up happening. We ended up going there. And two months after we were there, President Biden pulled out our troops. And so I was left with this question of, what do we do? You know, we don't really have a film here. We have the beginning of something,

but there's obviously a lot of story left. And so that's when I reached back out to General Sami Sadat, who was in charge of southern Afghanistan, who had been working with the Green Braves, and asked him, you know, can we come back and spend time with you? And that's what ended up happening. So the story follows the general as he tries to cope with the advancing Taliban forces. And it ends with the scenes that many people will recognize of thousands of Afghans trying to flee Kabul at the airport. But if we can spool back to the very important start of the film, as you've alluded to, the moment when the troops in Afghanistan

are listening to their president saying that their tour of duty and their military mission is over, which is an extraordinary scene to have been able to witness. Did it actually happen in the real time that you show us the viewers? They are watching on a TV screen, their president saying, that's it. Yes, yes. Which is remarkable, really, when you think of the impact that that then had on their lives.

And as you say, the lives of the people that they're connected with. I mean, that's why I love making films this way. You know, it's making observational films where you're shooting 16, 18 hours a day. You know, I don't go into these films with any script, any goal in mind, any preordained notion of what the story will be or what it'll end up being, you know, you discovered along the way. The central character in the film is the guy you mentioned, General Sami Sadat.

Tell us a little bit about him. Where was he educated? So General Sadat was educated, you know, in the West, and then came back to Afghanistan and held various positions within the Afghan intelligence and military. In the film, he's 35 years old, two-star general in charge of 15,000 troops in southern Afghanistan. So he had an enormous, enormous burden on his shoulders and felt like the weight of the world, you know, was upon him to hold his country together. But did he think at the start of that American withdrawal that actually he could be victorious? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think that's sort of the narrative tension in the movie, right? Is metaphorically speaking, every neon sign was saying, stop, you're going to lose, especially

as time went on. And we got closer to the end of the summer of 2021. Give up, surrender. But, you know, he had this steadfast belief that maybe, just maybe, if he held on to Helmand, if he held on to Lashkar-Gar, that maybe Afghanistan would hold together. Well, what do you think about President Biden's decision? Would you have made the same decision if you were him? I'm not a policy expert, you know, and I can't answer that question any better than you can. By no means did this film just set out to figure out who did what right or wrong, who's at fault, how did we get here. I get criticized with my films sometimes for not giving context to these problems,

but I believe that by immersing you into these situations, into these characters, into these moments in history, that not only is it an important historic document, but it allows viewers to engage in a way that more sort of pointed or narrative-driven documentaries don't. I'm trying to get people to feel and to care about this conflict that has really left the headlines. I mean, when I was making the film, it was the biggest news story in the world.

Now that we're talking here on the radio, you know, no one's talking about Afghanistan. And so I hope among many things that the film reignites a conversation about this, you know, two decade long war that we have, you know, completely left behind. But I guess a lot of people, a lot of voters in America will just be thinking, well, actually, I'm really grateful that our young people are not at risk in this place anymore, that that is at least something we don't have to worry about. It's the same for, I mean, Britain lost service people too. It was horrific. Absolutely.

I think the interesting thing, at least in the U.S., is that this does not break down along neat ideological lines. You can talk to people on the left left and they feel awful that we left. They feel awful that women, girls can't go to school and women can't walk outside without their faces covered. The progress that we made on a human rights level has gone back 20 years. You can talk to people on the right and say, you know, we wasted resources and we shouldn't be at war. It's not that clean and neat, at least in the U.S., in terms of left and the right. I think every single person has their own views of whether we should have been there in the first place, when we should have left, how we should have left, whether we should

have maintained a small presence of troops there. There's a myriad of opinions on what should have happened. And that's the sort of fog of war. And did the US Army ask to see any of the rushes before the edit or to have any editorial kind of control over the final cut? So that was part of the years of getting access is obviously this is an unprecedented embed with the Special Forces Unit of this length. The answer is no. I mean, I never would have agreed if they had any creative control over it. agreed if they had any creative, you know, control over it. They did have the ability to look at from a sort of security point of view, to make sure that we weren't endangering anyone's lives. But ultimately, you know, they didn't really have any comments. We knew we knew what, you know,

what would endanger people, and we didn't show that. What is the fate then of General Sami Sadat? He loses, the Taliban take over. What happens to him? Obviously, he was, you know, at the top of the list of people that the Taliban were trying to find, seek out and kill. And so he was forced to flee. He fled here to London. He's still in exile. And as he's announced publicly, he's trying to mobilize an armed resistance to eventually take back the country from the Taliban. He's obviously keenly aware that that is a tall order, and that's not something that's going to happen overnight, but that is something that he is actively pursuing. You know, the other sad part of the story, obviously, is that

we've left thousands and thousands and thousands of people that work for the Brits, people that work for the Americans, who are still living in danger in Afghanistan, living in hiding, being threatened by the Taliban. Some are continually still being killed by the Taliban and hunted down. And we have left them there. I don't want to preempt anybody else's reaction to watching your film, Matt. I would highly recommend it as something valuable to do with your time. I was left with this terrible sense of futility about war. Just what on earth is the point of that being? Which may just be too naive a reaction.

Is it the reaction that you'd like your viewers to have? It's certainly not a unique reaction. Look, I think that's why I love making films this way. You know, 100 different people will walk away with it with 100 different reactions. That certainly is one of them. I mean, you know, when I was 21 years old, a mentor of mine said to me, if you end up with the story you started with, then you weren't listening along the way, which I think is good advice for life. It's good advice for filmmaking. Don't be dogmatic. Be open to the story changing and evolving. I choose to make and then a micro sense within each shoot, within each minute, within each second, how I point my camera, you know, look around and, you know, be open to the story changing. And if I had one goal, I think I said it earlier, but if I had one goal, it would be to get people to feel and care about this conflict more than they are now. I feel like it's completely been lost

in the news cycle and it's still a living, breathing story that is incredibly important. Women's rights have gone away. The economy is in freefall. Their healthcare system is non-existent. And, you know, there's thousands and thousands of Afghan and British partners and other, you know, NATO allies that are living in fear. And so, and other NATO allies that are living in fear. And so I think, I hope at least that conversation happens. That was the director, Matt Heinemann, talking to us about his new documentary, Retrograde.

You can see it on the National Geographic Challenge. I couldn't say that. I couldn't say that today. I'm going to give that another run up. You can leave it in if you want to. national geographic channel and there is also a uk cinema release yes and i think to be honest if we are honest and we were honest on the radio show we found out we were going to have to watch this documentary we were both a bit really but um i found that certainly the first couple of minutes and the last couple of minutes, some of the most devastating footage I have ever seen. Beautifully filmed, incredibly poignant, utterly terrifying. even more, and perhaps like is the wrong word in that sentence,

the thing that I was most interested in seeing and that actually kept me going throughout the whole of the documentary was I don't think that I have seen American soldiers kind of at ease with each other, having conversations with each other in that kind of war setting ever. I've seen fictionalised accounts of it and I've seen news reports of it, but I've never been taken inside an American military base where all of these guys are just shooting the breeze.

And actually their personal opinions about the politics around that time are really interesting. They wouldn't be allowed to say that if they were doing a news report. They were critical of what the president had asked them to do. They accepted their fate and they accepted their orders. But you could tell that they felt that they were letting down the Afghan soldiers who they had been training with and who they'd lost many men alongside. reason I thought it was just an incredible incredible film actually not not one to go into with without making time in your head for it it's not a right rollicking let's get a bowl of popcorn out thing it is deeply moving yes it definitely isn't a go-to entertainment film no but it will move you and it will also just make you think, what was all that about? Because British lives were lost in Afghanistan too.

Do you know, Jane, how many times do you need to see what happens in war to think that there's a futility attached to war? I don't know. We don't seem to learn the lesson, do we? Thank you for your emails. How do you email us, Fi? Oh, my goodness. So you send an email to janeandfi at times.radio. This is from Deborah.

Does this email herald the start of an inundation going the other way? I really like the music in the off-air podcast, says Deborah. No, don't. Don't start a fight. She has. I enjoyed the interview with Ian Hislop. I started sneakily reading my dad's copy of Private Eye when I was about nine, i.e. over 40 years ago, and we subsequently shared a subscription until he died. The first time my own copy arrived, still in its wrapper, unread by dad, was a moment of profound grief. I also have a wake-up lamp and I also sleep with the curtains open. These changes have

transformed me from a snarling bear first thing in the morning to a reasonable human being. My husband was astonished. He's obsessive about keeping the bedroom totally dark and he had never appreciated the impact this was having on me. Fortunately, the kids started to leave home around this time and the time we discovered this. So we're now able to sleep in separate bedrooms. We compromise when on holiday. Keep up the good work, says Deborah. Compromise is everything, Deborah.

So well done to you and your husband for managing to do it. There was a way that you said compromise that suggests you've said it before. Compromise is, yes, absolutely. I could no more sleep with the curtains open than fly to the moon. It's interesting that. In fact, I think often on television or in films, there are scenes set in bedrooms and the curtains are open in the night and in the morning.

I just don't get it. And do you want to rush up to the television and close them? Who sleeps? I mean, apart from Deborah, do people sleep with the curtains open? I mean, exhibitionists might, I suppose. I don't know. I don't know.

What do you do if you've got slatted blinds? Right, now this one comes from Julia. You ready for this? Yeah. Dear Jane and Fi, hello from Brisbane, Australia. Huge fan of you two. I'm loving the off-air podcast and the breadth of topics covered and your insight and banter.

The one aspect that's troubled me for some years, and I've probably given this too much thought, is the dynamic between you. It said in every relationship there is one who kisses ie fee and one who's kissed Jane I feel like Jane is a little bit mean to fee who is consistently kind and caring towards her this may be a projection of my own issues but Jane please be kinder to fee love you both to bits best wishes Julia the only thing I can say to Julia is, yes, you have been giving this too much thought.

Not nearly enough thought, Julia, and thank you for mentioning it. Is it very boring in Brisbane? I'm doing okay is all I can say, Julia, but if I blink twice, come and get me. Doing okay? She's having the time of her life. There you go. Just off again.

Julia, thank you. I'll take it on board. I won't really. Right. Thank you very much for engaging with our twaddle. We really appreciate it. And on Monday, we'll be back with the Times Radio show between three and five and with Off Air available

in all your usual podcast places at around, what is it? Half past six it comes? Yes, it pops into your life about half six. And big name guest on Monday afternoon. We're both thrilled. It is Monty Don and I'm very much hoping he's going to come in a smock. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler

and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us Off 3 till 5 on Times Radio embrace the live radio jeopardy thank you for listening

and hope you can join us off air very soon goodbye