Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Ill at ease at a Club 18-30 foam party (with Stig Abell)

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

Have you ever successfully taken the smell out of wool? Then this is the podcast for you! Jane and Fi chat Club 18–30, second-hand bed linen, extremely experimental theatre, and what happens when your fingertips fade. Plus, Times Radio presenter and crime-author Stig Abell discusses his latest book ‘A Twist in the River’. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Wednesday's edition of Offair with Jane and Fee, just an alert that we've just recorded the Book Club, so that will come your way, will come your way on Friday as an additional Easter weekend treat. And thank you for participating so much in book club. So we had more emails about a town like Alice by Neville Schuett than any of the other books that we've read so far. I think are we on to book about 11, 10, 9, 8?

Pick a number and circle it. Because there was actually loads and those to talk about. And I did enjoy reading it, Jane, knowing that I'd be able to talk about it. And that is the joy of book club. Yeah, it really is. You didn't have to keep it all in just to yourself. No.

So get your thinking caps on and come up, please, with another book that will be equally provocative in a couple of months' time. Our USP 4 Book Club is a book that has either gone off the radar or you think wasn't on the radar enough. but what we don't really want to do is read stuff that is right at the top of the bestseller lists or is just won a prize or is on its first marvellous outing

across the literary steeplechase so it just has to be something a little bit oh god I'd kind of forgotten about that or oh I've never heard of that definitely you can do it because you've been brilliant at suggesting books in the past so just ping your suggestions in Jane and Fee at times dot radio

and our thanks to Laura Hackett deputy, no she's got a new title because she tells us all about it, deputy literary editor brackets. Are there any brackets? I can't remember. Deputy literary and fiction editor of the Times and the Sunday Times. Right, and she's really interesting

because she's very young and so her perspective on Neville Shoot, well she'd never heard of Neville Shoot. Anyway, hear it. That's Friday's bonus book club edition of Offair with Jane and Fee. You didn't notice, but while we were recording that upstairs in the pretty butch studios of Talk Sport. The TV monitor in that studio was showing this morning with Dermott and Alison,

and amongst their topics came emblazoned across the screen. Would you eat awful bolognese? I don't want to eat anything if it's awful. I just thought, probably not. But thank you for bringing that difficult discussion to my attention. I do love. I love a bit of the sweet. morning. Yeah, I haven't seen it actually, not in this incarnation, so I don't know.

Because then they would have done, what would they have gone on to do? They would have done some kind of craft around Easter. Well, no, by the time we left that room, they were on to acne. Acne? Yeah. What, where I live? And, too, I love that combo of Alison and Dermott. I think they're good together. I didn't really like all of the other people beforehand. No. We now know that we really don't like one of them for very obvious reasons, but I didn't really believe the chemistry. You know what I mean? It's not easy to create chemistry, isn't it?

Darling, it's not. This one comes in from Page in Boston. Jane and Feet, I thought Love Story was an awful program in many ways. It's full of crap. Now, this is reference to. This is, it's being billed, and we've got no reason to doubt this, as Disney Plus's most streamed TV series ever.

And it's called Love Story, and it's about the real-life love story of John F.K. Jr. and Caroline Bissett. And I don't want to spoil the ending here, but the ending of their lives was spoiled. So they died in a plane crash, and Disney Plus have done this. I think it is a mega episode. It's like 12 episodes, and it is schmaltzy beyond belief. Paige says the portrayal of Darrell Hannah because she went out with JFK Junior was completely false as was Caroline Kennedy

the creators took advantage of a couple who people loved to look at visually drew it out over too many episodes the whole Kennedy woman expectation and lecture I believe is highly exaggerated perhaps when Rose was alive sadly I think it's what's wrong with a lot of American TV today

I could go on but I know you're busy whenever that busy don't worry about it and Paige signs off by saying you help my sanity in Batchit Crazy USA. Today we're hanging on by our fingernails, the damage will never be repaired. I'm glad you took the time to write in page because we did wonder when we were watching it,

and I think Eve you had the same experience as we did. We thought it was a bit rubbish, but we watched four episodes just to make sure because there's something, what is it? I mean, it's a great big box of assorted milk chocolates in terms of its production values, isn't it? Yeah, I kind of knew. that I was watching it for the aesthetics.

There's something kind of sex and the city-esque about it. It's New York. It's the 90s. And the soundtrack's unbelievably good. The clothes are really nice. I also thought it was really nice to watch a TV show when no one's got a mobile phone in their hand. That's true. That was kind of why I bought into it.

Yeah, absolutely right. And you do that thing where you're slightly trying to spot who's who at parties because they move obviously amongst the great and the good. So, oh, it's Calvin Klein. Oh, I didn't realize who was married to whoever it was. and yeah and then you do have to check in with yourself it's actually a very very sad story yeah and aspects of it do feel a bit exploitative and a bit uncomfortable that they've dramatized

this family's very real lives yeah and don't you think as well and then we will move on so i know not everybody has access to it or wants to pay to watch it the accent used by the actress playing jackie onassis yes it's just so bizarre i mean it's just constantly John, I think you would mean, it would be more fulfilling if you were not with an actress, somebody who had different boundaries in their life.

Just like what's going on here. Is it a real person playing that part? Naomi, Naomi Watts. Is it? Yes. Who played Diana? Is that her? Yes. But honestly, Joan, it's just so strange. You just want to go, what's happening here?

Because it's just, the intonation is just very strange. all the time. Well, she was from high society, wasn't she, the woman who married Jackie Onassis, who had been Jackie Kennedy? Yes. So is that a posh Boston accent? Was that where Jackie Kennedy was from?

I don't know. I don't know. And it's, I mean, every aspect of it is high kind of caricature. And it is, I think it's been described as unapologetically schmaltzy. But it's just one of those things, Jane. And I know it's, you know, it is not an original observation. But actually

when there's proper human tragedy involved, it's quite it is quite weird I think you do just have to check in with yourself about the fact that this is based on real events and you know where it's going to end yeah but she did also play Diana in the biopic there was a film of her just called

Spencer that was a weird film no it was called Diana and then you're thinking of Kristen Stewart also played one I feel like I'm in a fever dream I know it's not the the slickest conversation you've ever had Rachel says it's half term Rachel here

I just had to drop in to say my brother, this is about siblings, my brother who is two years older than me, well, we fought like cat and dog, until we were 30 and 32. My then-husband, very swiftly, he became my ex, walked out on me, leaving me with a six-week-old baby for a girl in the office. What a gem, says Rachel. Well, what a gem. I mean, I think we could all agree, you're well shot of him.

My parents flew to Boston on holiday that same day. My brother's son was born the same day. two, three weeks early. There's a lot going on in that family on that one day. I was in bits. My mum was in bits at the airport and my brother spoke to me and said, just put your baby in the car and come here. Bless him. He looked after me crying, my baby with colic crying, his wife crying on day three as her milk came in. He was an absolute star and let me and my baby invade their precious early weeks as a family. We realised we finally had something in common after all these years, two little boys born six weeks apart. Well, I mean, what a legend he sounds at a time of

absolute crisis for you. I'm so chuffed to hear about a man more than coming to the wicket and doing all the right things. Yeah, it is very good to hear. It's brilliant. We do like to, within reason, amplify the stories about decent men. Well, in the hope that we just create a bigger pathway for people to traips their way down. Indeed. This one comes in from Emily, who says, long-time listener, semi-frequent emailer. You've even read out a couple of my previous ramblings and shared my rude carrot photo and I'm never going to forget this, Emily, it's etched on my mind, Vicker with this special cup drawing. Yes, indeed. You mentioned the playlist. Not to be thought about it at this time of year. Parish notices this evening and it prompted me

to say how absolutely delighted I was to hear. It included the classic FU by Lillard. Alan. Thank you so much to whoever suggested it. It's so lovely to be reunited with an old favourite. And then a new track I've never heard before and probably never would have if it wasn't for this podcast, Victoria's Secret by Jazz. It's absolutely brilliant, fantastic lyrics, such an important message with a stonking tune. It should be blasted out in every secondary school, in my opinion. I completely agree, actually, Emily, and that was recommended by another one of our listeners and that is the joy of the mixed soup that is the off-air podcast. Indeed.

Because you all chucked stuff in and it really makes a difference to us actually. So Coiled Spring is the latest podcast playlist that is up at the moment. And if you're off on your sojourns over the Easter holidays, then I think we've got three or four playlists that you can take your pick from. And we were talking on the radio show yesterday, weren't we? Which people can listen to on the Times Radio app. It's entirely free. And we're on Monday to Thursday between two o'clock.

welcome for about the new arrangements for people going to the European Union from the UK, which won't interest anybody outside the UK. But if you are trying to get to your, let's say you have a wonderful second home in the Doordaun, things are about to get just a trifle more complicated, aren't they? Well, they are. And we've heard already stories of people having four hour waits at border control. Yeah, and it's no laughing matter in all seriousness if you're perhaps travelling with an elderly person or somebody who has...

Or kids. Or kids, somebody with additional needs. I cannot imagine how tough that's going to be. They take your photo, they'll need your fingerprints. It's just going to be slightly tricky. It is. Be particularly careful at the regional airports, because that's what our correspondent yesterday was telling people.

So, you know, exactly, you can picture the airport if you've been there. It's quite a cheap flight. It says it's in the dodoin. It's not really, no. Gateway to, it's usually called Gateway to the something, isn't it? Gateway to Andalusia. It's in Portugal. Gateway to the Doldoin.

It's in Switzerland. Those kind of airports, because they tend to only have a couple of people on duty. And we did hear tales, they may be apocryphal, of some of the border control staff, not really rushing through the things that needed to be done to let the Brits in. And, you know, there is that sentiment. You brought it on yourselves. So just be warned. Do you think it changes?

Can you do that fast track thing where you pay, you know, 17 pounds 50 for speedy boarding and to go through a different channel. Do you think it's different if you pay for that? Because I do think actually if you are travelling with kids and it is going to be a hassle, it might be the best £17.50 you've ever spent. As far as I know, that service is not available. But I guess if you're a regular traveller to and from, The continent. As I understand it from our correspondent who was on yesterday,

you sort of do it once and that registers you and then you're in the system. So you probably don't need to queue up for all that long. But I have to say, I'm slightly dreading it because I don't travel very much. I am going to France in June, so I'll have to go through all this. You will, Jane, yes. Oh, darling. Yes, even you. What?

Have you ever had your fingerprints taken before? No, I haven't. I don't believe you for a second. Well, actually, somebody did say yesterday. As you get older, it's harder to register your fingerprints. Your fingerprints get fainter. Yeah, God, every single power you have just ebbs away. And there's some very, very rare condition where you don't have fingerprints, isn't that?

I'm going to look that up, actually, while you read a long email, because somebody very famous has got that condition. Right. No with me, caller. It's not a particularly long email, but it is a lovely one. It's about a cruise. Let's go cruising while Fee's doing a bit of vital research. This is from Anonymous.

My husband and I went on our first saga cruise last year. He's 75, I'm 62. Firstly, I'd like to say how lovely and caring the staff were. They honestly couldn't do enough for you. Nothing was too much trouble. The dining experience was fabulous, but the average age was probably 80. And on the first night, I was sat next to a charming man who was 96.

We also really did meet some truly, truly lovely people. Well, I'm glad to hear about that anonymous. And these cruises are, saga specialises in holidays. It's the over 50s. isn't it? So if you do sign up, you can't really expect to be getting down and dirty with people in their 30s and 40s because they're not going to be on the cruise. They're not allowed to go on the holidays. But I'm delighted that you, from the sound of things, had a good time. And just because somebody's 96

doesn't mean they've run out of conversational puff, does it? Probably had quite a lot to bring. In fact, you've had years to accumulate. You've had more experience than most. All kinds of anecdotes. I think once our mobility diminishes, we will have a very, very different view of the cruise, Jane. I think you're right. And I'm very happy to admit that. And relatives I have known, one of whom had very impaired mobility, they lived for their cruises.

And they said it was absolutely amazing because actually it gave them the freedom that they just didn't have in their normal life. You were just to get into town. They couldn't do it because there were too many bumpy steps and pavements and all of that. And they got to see the world from a window. And absolutely loved it. A balcony.

Presumably you can just, you know, read your book on your balcony. Totally. Does the club 1830 still exist, as we're talking about age restrictions on holidays? Is that still a thing? Oh, my God. Do you remember 1830? I used to hear some, wasn't it 1833? No.

It was 1830. It was just 1830. You did hear some truly hair-raising stories. Unbelievable. So you've got to hope that they don't happen anymore just because of the invention of the mobile phone. I mean, as some of that stuff was filmed, it would just be cancellation culture. Well, it was foam parties a go-go, wasn't it?

It was wet t-shirt contests. Wet t-shirts and tipping jugs of Sangria down your gullet at half-ten in the morning. I mean, not for us. No. Not now, anyway. What's the news? It might have actually cost the world its antibiotic resistance. It closed in 2018.

It closed in 2018. Oh, do. Yep. I mean, it won't mean anything to you, Eve, but it was just something that was, it was in the periphery of everybody's vision, wasn't it, when they were kind of that age. Would you ever go on a club 1830? God, I'd have been so ill at ease on anything like that.

Darling, it wouldn't have been for you. Adematoglyphia, also known as immigration delay disease, is a very rare genetic condition people are born without fingerprints. It doesn't usually cause major health problems, just smooth fingertips. It's got its nickname because effective people often have trouble with fingerprint-based ID systems at borders. So, well, what happens to those people? I don't know.

They're just going to have to do biometrics somewhere else, aren't they? With their eye or their... I don't know what. If you are in the subsection of humanity that has that condition and has a second home on the continent, then you're niche, and you need us. You certainly need something.

Do you want to hear about this hair-raising theatrical experience? I absolutely do, but can I just mention, because that has just rung my bell, actually, about fingerprints and stuff at borders, that the show that we are really, really enjoying that is about accounting, a crossboard. It's a crime drama about accounting systems. It's called Hidden Assets.

It's on series three. It is brilliant. No, I really, really recommend it. It by no means allows you to escape from people being shot and stuff like that. But it's not, it just doesn't contain any, you know, when is there a serial killer hunting young women? It's not that.

It is about accounting systems. I don't like... And you mock me for listening to the archers. I don't understand it sometimes. And I would give it a hard recommend. Series 3 is just up on the iPlayer at the moment. Sophie says, I thought... I just can't... I don't know what to say.

I thought the fellow off-air listeners would enjoy hearing about a theatrical performance I've just experienced. Oh, God, no, the one at the Batters the Arts Centre. Well, my friend said... I can't read all the details. My friend said this Italian group had been a huge hit in Sicily.

Well, I mean, so I was intrigued when they came to London. Were you? Anyway, my first warning sign was that the front row had to sit cross-legged on the floor. Well, you and I'd leave at that point, wouldn't we? The first five minutes consisted solely of an androgynous figure socking their big toe.

Then for around 30 minutes, eight people writhed around the floor in complete undress. They kept putting on their clothes, but in a jiffy it was off again. Oh my God. Lots of staring intensely at each audience member. This is all to a soundtrack of either a cat purring or engine noises. I couldn't which, at least it was a diverse group of actors from women in their 20s. A pair of men, our correspondent, describes as stocky in their 50s, who for some reason had pubic hair on

their back, to a very fierce woman in her 70s. The action then moved to everybody stumbling around, still naked, with a shirt pulled over their faces, making bird noises. Do you know what, Jane? There is an argument for arts funding, but it's not this. It was an hour long. Oh my God. What I found most interesting was looking at the expression of my fellow audience members. Many simply had a fixed expression with a glassy stare and a slight smile, seemingly to indicate they were cultured and understood the deeper meaning of what we were all watching. Yeah, I've never been... Thank you, Sophie.

so much. It sounds absolutely bloody awful. It really does. And I am in awe of people who can pull that face. That kind of face that says, yes, I'm the sort of person who gets this when you're a bit of a dingbatting. You couldn't possibly. You're just making lists in your head, aren't you? Well, yeah, you might be right, actually. Yeah. Let me just have a pallet cleanser. And Marie says, who loves the show, we know that, Marie, if you're just looking for something to calm you down as the world just goes to Helen and Hancock, why not buy yourself a couple of new pillow cases? I agree. Yeah.

I think there's a lot of pleasure to be gained in that sort of area. Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. The problem now is that you can't just make it as a kind of solitary expedition into the world of pillowcases

without them being reminded you bought a pillowcase for about two and a half years on your social media. Try and sell you more of them, which is madness. They do and it takes away the fun of I've just dipped into linen threads for 10 minutes to take my mind off world events. Do you know, Fee, I've picked up a few lovely pillowcases

in vintage shops over the years. Have you? Yes, I have. Okay. And after a good boil wash, they're absolutely fantastic. Yes. No, I can imagine that they do cleanse well from the charity shop. Because the thing that you never really successfully buy from a charity shop is a woolen.

Because it's either bobbled beyond belief and beyond repair, or there's a smell that just doesn't come out of wool. Whatever you do. Yeah, because you can't borrow wash. Have you successfully taken a smell out of wool? This is the podcast. Well, it is the podcast because genuinely. I would like to have an answer to that question

because sometimes we've bought Wollens from a charity shop. I know, aren't we good? And, you know, we've left them in fabric conditioner overnight in the bath. You know, we've left them soaking for days on end. We've tried airing them outside. And there's just a smell that just won't go away. So, yes, I'd take suggestions on that.

Well, the smell being kind of fusty, musty. It's fusty-musty, I'm a vintage shop in Hastings. That's the scent. Yeah. You know it. I haven't watched The Manosphere with Louis Theroux, says Angela, who is in Brisbane. And I'm not sure I will. But it was discussed on another podcast I listened to recently,

an Aussie one called Not Stupid with Julia Baird and Jeremy Fernandez, where a listener suggested that an alternative, a good one, would be the nanosphere. That's a good idea, isn't it? Get lots of wise, older women who've been around and seen stuff and done stuff to dispense their wisdom. That would be fantastic. Well, I've always said, and in fact, I think we talked about it a bit in our book. Have we written a book, Joan?

Yes, we have. Don't really understand why you're not corporate Cathy about the book. Oh, sorry, yes. Did I say that out loud? I think you'll find it still available. It is. I was saying to a colleague earlier, I've got about 10,000 copies in my cellar. Okay, bring some out. Bring some out. Actually, if it had been compulsory for all of those social media companies to have a middle-aged mum on their board, things might have been a bit different.

Because the whole notion of setting up basically kind of playground popularity contests and, you know, you show me yours, I'll show you mine contests, would just have been poo-poohed from the start. It's a valuable voice to have in the room. It really is. Team building. We've had some interesting emails about team building exercises. Neither you nor I are terrifically keen.

This is, apparently, this really happened to one of our correspondents, one of our amanders. One event on a team building exercise will simply never leave me. We were paired up for time trials where one of us had to put on a blindfold and drive a land rover around an obstacle course in a field. And the other person had to sit next to us and give directions from the passenger seat. The fastest time won. But as we were saying before, then when you come back to your financial services company and you're in the... big room and you're discussing quarterly figures for, you know, October to December. How does that help?

I don't know. She says I'd love to have you two at a team building day. No, you wouldn't. I think it would be hilarious. And I would come away feeling re-energized. I think there's a lot to be said for that, even if the business benefits may not seem so easy to measure on the surface. Perhaps Eve could set the two of you team building challenges, which you could record on Monday's day. What would be your team building challenge? What would you ask us to do? And then we should get to the guest. Would we even be able to build a raft together?

I don't think we would. No. Trust exercises. Do you trust each other? You could look after each other's pets for the weekend. Because it's not fair because I'd have to take on a small zoo. I'd quite like to see you. What a good idea. Because there are some weekends where I quite like somebody else to be looking after the pets at the moment. I think Nancy might walk Jane.

Do you what? I'd love to see. your face first thing in the morning. If you've never encountered a grey hound's deposits, they are quite frightening. I can't know. Sun to Dora's

and Nancy has taken to just doing them in the Conservatory now. The house is still on the market. For you, you just keep doing it. Sorry. Sorry. I do clean it. Okay.

Okay. Leave it, leave it. Gordon. No, we need to go to the guests. We've been working. Nope. No, we've been working far too hard to stay anyway. already done one podcast, save it till Monday. It'll keep. Oh no, we're in tomorrow, aren't we? Not Easter yet, Easter Bonnie. Who's our guest today, Jane? It's Times Radio's breakfast co-host and novelist Stig Abel. Hello, Stig. Hello, how you doing? Not too, well, I'm all right because I get up at a very reasonable hour indeed. You, however, have done how many Times

Radio Breakfast shows do you think you've co-hosted now? It must be, so it's nearly six years. It's for 16 hours a week, it's many, many thousands of hours. And actually, the Donald Trump impact is very keenly felt because in common, I think, with many of our listeners, whatever time you get up, the thing you do is you check your phone and you say,

has Donald Trump decided to end this war, continue this war, and bearing in mind that this war will have massive effects on all of our lives, all of our pensions, job prospects, ability to drive a car. It's not an idle checking of your phone to see how Donald Trump has done. So I've just been talking to our production

him about how do you book, we've got to try and book the right guest for Donald Trump may or may not say at 2 o'clock in the morning. That's a bit, because it could be we're moving troops into Kagai Island and I'm announcing a land war, or it could be I've spoken to an Iranian person who I think is someone in charge and I'm withdrawing entirely. Yes, the trumpification of news was something I did want to talk to you about. Yeah. But actually, in the last couple of minutes, certainly Sky are reporting that Iran says they haven't asked for a CIS. far. So, I mean, the whole thing is just the usual. It's a far. I mean, if it is, if it wasn't so serious, it would be a farce. But it is kind of serious because you do wonder how to respond

journalistically to this stuff, because you've got to report where he says and what he says has massive meaning. I mean, he's more powerful now than he's, than he's ever been. He'll probably be, you know, more powerful till the midterms. And maybe that, does that wobble him a little bit? Maybe it does. It's certainly more powerful than he was first time up. And so it does matter what he says. But what's interesting about Donald Trump is, he has this ability to turn his assertions into the reality he wants to live in. Except in this situation, reality is going to hit him in the nose at some point, because he can say he's won the war, but he can't open the straight of four moves. He can't assert the straight of four moves is open and make it so. It is either open or not.

The oil price is either $120 a barrel or it's 80. You can't change that. So that's what I think so fascinating in a grim way for all of us is that he might be able to alter reality. in terms of perception among people in America, but reality will have the last laugh in the end. The fact that, too, tomorrow morning, he'll come up with his usual bombastic piffle. This is piffle from somebody who's fundamentally quite unhinged, which most of us accept now.

And then people who aren't unhinged, and some of whom, including you, are actually rather clever, will attempt to make sense of it. But in 10 years' time, we'll look back on this and think, what are we doing? What was all that about? I think that's probably right. I always call it, everyone says, and we'll be accused of this evening in this conversation,

the Trump derangement syndrome, which is the syndrome that people support. I really object to that expression. I know. Well, I think what actually exists in the world is Trump arrangement syndrome. Because what actually happens is Trump shoots from the hip, says what he thinks, has no strategic planning, often says things that are contradictory within seconds, if not minutes of each other. And then there's this entire scaffolding of the world erects itself to make sense of it. And all of a sudden, you'll have people.

People say, oh, he's weaponised uncertainty. Or this is part of a long game that will do this. And Taras is a way of just starting the negotiation. Then someone will pop up and say he's a deeply transactional person. You hear that a lot. He's a deeply transactional. He's the art of the deal, man. He just wants to make a deal.

He wants to make a deal. Well, what deal is he going to make with a bunch of crazy, you know, evil, largely Iranians, who he's bombed out of house and home, who've found the bit of leverage that everyone said they had, but no one had really tested in 40 years. And look at a sudden, that level. bridge does exist. And how do you get out of that,

how do you get out of this situation? You can't simply assert your way out of that situation. Do you think that he's underestimated and therefore we all underestimate the very real possibility of huge repercussions on American soil? I wonder that. I mean, the problem with all of this is the danger in a lot of an analysis of Trump is, just because he's making foolish decisions, it doesn't lend virtue to the other side at all. And actually, this is a tyrannical regime.

It is a regime that has done all sorts of appalling things. It probably wishes to do all sorts of appalling things in future. And the problem, I always found this when we used to discuss the Iraq war all the time. Making bad foreign policy mistakes doesn't justify terrorism, but it will be used to justify terrorism. And it will probably motivate people to consider terrorism. But the danger you then have, as you try and analyze that, is you try and make that causal effect.

It will be used by some people as a bro. as a justification. And that strikes me as ethically wrong as well. The brutal truth is it's a right old mess. And it wasn't so much of a mess four weeks ago as it is now. And how you remedy the right old mess is, I think, a really tricky, tricky thing. And will we know more, if you wake up at six o'clock in the morning, we'll tell you what Trump said at two o'clock in the morning. Will that be any clearer? Will the situation be better or worse or the same? And we can find out. Okay, Mike takes issue with my assertion that Donald Trump is unhinged and says he isn't onhinged. And that's the point.

Some people, and this may just be Trump Arrangement Syndrome, or it might be the madman theory of diplomacy, the fact that he absolutely does things. I mean, if you contrast him with Kirstama, Kirstama pauses and has a consultation about everything. A point that Donald Trump made not inaccurately about him in one of his rants. Trump does do things. Now, whether he does things with forethought,

whether he does things as part of a strategy. I think one is entitled to question quite robustly. But stuff happens under Donald Trump in a way that it doesn't with other people. Ron has messaged in to say he doesn't want to hear about you talking about Donald Trump. He wants to hear about you, Sting. Oh, bless your heart, Ron. Okay. And Stig has actually been booked to talk about his latest Jake Jackson novel,

which is out next Thursday, isn't it? Not tomorrow. No, next Thursday. It's called a Twist in the River. Nina Simone, I put a spell on you. And we've taken that from the playlist, the soundtrack, to your latest Jake Jackson novel. Now, you'll be flattered to hear that this is the first of your books I've ever read,

and it worked for me as a stand-alone. Ah, the dream! Because there are three predecessor, Jake Jackson books, and I was a bit concerned myself when this mission fell to me. I thought, will I be able to do this? Will I understand? But it's all right. Okay, did you enjoy it?

I did enjoy it. I've got some issues. Of course. And we'll bring them to... No doubt you'll tell me about me. We'll bring them to the table. in a minute. But can you for people... What like Donald Trump? What's that guy I like?

No, no, no, we're not going back to him. You're not getting out that easily. For people who haven't explored the world of Jake Jackson, just take us into it. Now, he finds himself in a beautiful, bucolic idyll, a home called Little Sky. But how did he acquire it? Who is he, and where has he been previously? So he's a detective used to work in the city, and I wrote the first book of this when I've been thinking a lot, as I still do about the impacts of technology. It was written the first one, this is the fourth one, as you say,

at the COVID period where a lot of life was about thoughts around the difference between loneliness and isolation and solitude and things like that, the importance of nature and the intrusive pernicious problems occasioned by technology. And so I thought, I read a lot of detective fiction in my time. I love detective fiction. I quite like old detective. I like books that are written in the 80s, 90s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 40s,

one of the reasons is that technology doesn't intrude upon them. Now, there are some wonderful crime writers who make technology the centrepiece of their crime fiction, which I think is excellent. But my thought was, A, because I think it's an idyll worth contemplating, and B, because it makes the plot more interesting, what if Jake Jackson, whose marriage had failed, got an inheritance of this beautiful farmhouse called Little Sky in a place where there is no internet, no television, no radio, a black spot?

And therefore, had the opportunity to experience life without the intrusions of technology. and also experience life without the connections and the pressures of knowing people. Was he also looking for a life without crime? Because if he was, he's failed. It's not turned out brilliantly, but in my ideal world, I would just have written Jake Jackson novels with no crime in them at all. But my publishers explained that's not a very good idea when you're writing detective fiction to have no crimes take place. So one of the points of the book is actually, can you really escape your past? and even when you say you have principles about not getting sucked into things,

being your own person, it's a funny how the world and society and life has a way of dragging you back in. So what continually happens in these books is life in various different forms drags him back in. Okay, I've got a couple of questions for you. Tom says, which city? Which city is he escaped from? I'd never name it.

Yes, well, I noticed that, but Tom is interested. It's probably, I mean, it's a big city, it's probably London, but I quite like the idea of Little Sky, the place, is not fixed geographically. I thought it was Norfolk. I've heard Norfolk. I've heard the Cotswolds. I've heard the Cotswolds.

Derbyshire, the Midlands. I've heard far north. I think the reason I wanted it is because there are some books, again, beautifully written, which are set in a specific place you can go and visit. And that's magnificent. I like the idea of Little Sky being a sort of Arcadia that doesn't quite exist. All right. Now, there are some similarities between you and Jake. No, no, not. Well, first of all, he wears sort of quite expensive leisure gear.

I don't think that's right. Well, I've never seen you in formal attire. I don't own a suit anymore. You don't own a suit? I don't own a suit. Okay. I just make funerals a little tricky. But I kind of feel that if I'm going to go to a funeral, I'll know the person so well, they'll forgive me. Well, I will say that at the end of this book, Jake attends a happy event. I won't say any more than that. Oh, yes. And even then he's wearing sort of leisure trousers. He's wearing leisure wear.

And there are a moment in the book where he's not wearing anything at all. Yes, there are some. Nakedness is a theme in your books. I do like a bit of nakedness. I'm not a naturist, V. I don't want to pretend otherwise. I don't want to claim a virtue I don't possess. Especially not as we head to visualization, mate.

Yeah. Next year when the fifth one comes out, we'll do this own natural, shall we? We won't. To the cameras. No, no. No, I'm quite interested. The other thing I love about books, I love physical descriptions. I find the tactility of books.

Because I reread a lot. And if you read lots of plot genre novels, which I do, if they're just plot, then it's quite hard to reread them. But the greatest novels, I was thinking of someone like P.D. James. Magnificent, magnificent author. And the one of the reasons her books are so good is because they're so beautifully written and there's tactility written into them. And I find that very important in fiction.

Okay. A couple more comments. Emma says, I love Jake. Is he getting married? Oh, you don't know. Don't know about that. I'll tell you what, Kandia says. The book is out on Kindle here in the US already.

I finished it last night in two sittings. I loved it and I can't wait for number five. It's your publicity team at work here. I think they probably are. This is absolutely incredible. Sue says, I'd like to tell Stig how much I enjoy his books and what a great style of writing he has. Bless your heart, Sue.

Thank you, Sue. Don't worry. Jane's about to say something horrible about them now. So we'll get journalistic balance, I think by the end of a half hour. I am really interested in the fact that this book does feature, I don't think it's as a spoiler to say at the start of the book, a woman goes missing.

And there is pandemonium, as there is often, but not always when a woman goes missing, and very rarely actually when a man goes missing. And that's just something that I do find troubling. And if the woman is, let's be honest, is white and middle class, then you will get lots of press coverage. And indeed, that is a line taken from the book, where Martha, who is one of the people who investigate,

with Jake, who's this character I've stumbled into, and I absolutely love writing, a very cynical figure who used to be in the security services. She actually makes that point. But if you look at there, I actually looked at the number, it is something absurd. Tens and tens and tens of thousands, 100 or thousand people go missing every year.

Why do we fixate upon the ones we fixate about them? And they're very often white, middle-class, heading towards middle-age. Heading towards women with kids, with a husband everyone's suspicious of. There's a narrative that we will. all fall into. And in fact, one of the reasons I wrote the book a little bit was because I was thinking about partly the media and the new media and how they report these things.

And one of the strains in the book is, what happens to a small village when a thing happens and the whole world falls upon it? That includes us, it includes print journalists, includes broadcast journalists, but now in the new world, it includes real life podcasters and YouTubers. And I started my career in the Press Complaints Commission, whereas one of my jobs was when a big crisis happened, I used to help the people at the centre of it deal with the press and try and get the press from not intruding too much into their lives. It's a very difficult thing to do because Jonas should ask questions of people and some people want to talk. None of it's very straightforward, but it reminds me of the scrum and how the modern scrum is a

little bit different. So I have a character in this book who is a YouTuber called Danny who goes wandering around of her own accord trying to solve the crime. Right. Now, and of course she is the kind of character that people with journalistic training are very, very snooty about. I really like her in the end. Well, I mean, she is an interesting character. I won't say any more than that, but yes, she's somebody who initially reading the book I was terribly sniffy about and then other stuff happens and I reassess. But of course, people like that did turn up.

I'm not going to mention the name. I can remember the name of the poor woman who went missing not that long ago by a river. All sorts of poorly motivated, certainly not trained people. meant to supposedly cover it. Yes. And it was just deeply, deeply unpleasant for everybody involved, not least the poor woman's family. And I think actually if you write about modern crime,

again, some of my crime writing is about idylls and the countryside and things like that. But actually, modern crime is a really interesting subject. And technology itself. I mean, technology affects everything we do, including how we consider crime and how crime is investigated. And of course, some train journalists are awful. And indeed, the pressure of even journalists trying to be good can be awful. I've the one of the things I learned in the past,

even if everyone goes there with good intentions and doesn't knock twice, knocks once, is really polite. If there's 50 of them, it can be terrible. But there's this new breed of people who are very much about the cliques even more so than journalists are. And what happens when all of those people gather together

in one small spot? And often it can cause all sorts of problems. You also have an old school local journalist in the book, don't you? That always makes me think about how much we've lost with local papers disappearing. And one of the joys I have, Joe, I really like her as well. I mean, it's such a dreadful trite cliche for authors to say,

and I don't want to say it, Jane. I don't want to insult everyone. Everyone says all the characters talk to you, and that's how you learn how to write these things. You do often stumble their end of characters who you just like more than you think you're going to when you start, and you want to give them more words. And Joe, the local journalist,

reminds me of local journalists I used to meet when I was in my old job. And, you know, now local journalism, with some exceptions, is owned by big businesses, and all it is tat. And if you ever go to a local website, people who listen will know this, they're almost unreadable. Because the second you go there, four things pop up and it's stuff that's just been trawled off the internet. It's all about just ad clicks. Now, I think AI is going to destroy that model and even more than it is now.

But at the moment, I don't think what used to be brilliant local journalism exists in the same way. Okay, I'm going to praise you and not praise you at the same time. Sarah says, Telstig, I love his books. I listen on Audible. I love that Jake likes to have a relaxing point. Puff now and then. He does. Very well.

That's not like me, actually. I'm a disgusting curitum. I wasn't going to mention that. That's fine. It's up to you. Sarah's listening in northern Norway. Bob, on the other hand, says Stig's books are okay if you're into bearded men swimming naked in a lake.

Truth. Now, I always thought that in real life. Who's not into that, though? IRL. You're not a big fan of cold swimming. I think you're quite disparaging about the cold swimmer. Yeah, the wild swimmer. There's that great joke.

How do you know if someone's into wild swimming? swimming, don't worry they'll tell you. Well. But again, I start from that cynical perspective, but like all things you're cynical about, it's because you're slightly jealous of it. And I suspect I'm slightly jealous of it. Now, you really worried me, I think it was last year when you revealed that you only eat one meal a day.

Yes. Now, there are some, I think you might loosely call them recipes in this book. Okay. Do you not buy it? I can't remember what's in this one. Go on. Well, page 252 of my proof copy. You got that far, did you?

Stig. I've read it. Well, I know. Jake, grab some potatoes from the store, bakes them, removes the flesh, and mashes it with cheese and herbs, and hard-fried pieces of sausage before returning the mix to the skins to brown that evening.

In the oven? My mum used to do that. He's having guests around, and that's what he's serving them. That sounds like me. Seriously, if you went to a farmhouse and someone rustically pulled out, crispy jacket potato skins

with potato mashed with cheese and sausage meat, who says no to that, vegetarian to tomatoes? Well, I was intrigued. And I actually did spend quite a bit of time just wondering exactly what kind of sausage you were using there. Is it, was it a salami base? Was it a chorizo?

I think it's a rustic sausage that I like to imagine hanging down from the rafters. One of my most influential books in my life was Wind in the Willows. You know that bit where they go to Badger's house and Badger sort of coeses up for the winter and he has hanging down from his rafters, smoked hams and sausage. That to me when I was a kid, was what when I think of food and sort of largesse

and I often think of that. So I like the idea of people thinking of what it would taste like because I think of that when I read books. There's a very nice creamy herb garlic dip in there as well. For food fans. Peter says, hello from Brighton. Jane Fee and Stigue are quickly becoming gay icons afternoon on Times Radio or Pure Bliss.

Well, we're settled for that. Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. Big in Brighton. Okay, I wanted to ask about Len Dayton because he died recently. And you are, I know you love your crime fiction. You've already said that.

And you reread books as well. I didn't, I mean, Lent Dayton was interesting because he wrote cookbooks too, didn't it? Now, why was he so good? So I read Lend Dayton for the first time when I was eight, I think. And I always say this, but I grew up exactly in the pre-technology era and then my adulthood has been exactly post-technology. So I read, my parents had all these genre novels.

And Lend Dayton wrote, gritty, beautifully written Cold War spy novels. and they just had within them this sort of flecks of poetry. So it was indicative of a time when Britain was pretty much on its uppers. It rained the whole time. The Cold War is at its heart. So it's the opposite of glamorous, and it's still got all the class sort of preoccupations

that Britain had in the 70s. But it's just propelled along with this lightness of touch. And I think great genre writers are one of the great pleasures in the world. And Len Dayton for many, many people offer that pleasure. The only book of his I've read, I think, is SSGB, which is the counterfactual. Yeah, the counterfactual, where the Nazis, where Churchill surrenders to the Nazis and the Nazis take over in Britain. And again, very, and lots of other people have done that. And he did it very well.

But he's one of these people. And my parents had John LaCarray and Len Dayton, but they also had sort of hacks like Hammondinis and Frederick Forsyth. And I remember Jeffrey Archer, the came, remember Kane and Abel? Every house had Kane. You've interviewed me on those programs with Jeffrey Alton. Yes. Yeah. Do you know what I once did a stage thing with Jeffrey Archer? He was Richard.

Did you? Yeah, and I interviewed him. And what he did is we were sitting next to each other on a stage and I asked him one question, and then he just stood up and walked 10 yards to the front of the stage and spent the next 55 minutes talking to the audience. I had to throw questions from 15 yards behind him, like I was at the back of a bus.

He once made me cry. No. Yeah, and I'm not alone in that, actually. Louise Minchin had had the same experience. I mean, he's quite something that gentleman. And in fact, he's retired. He's got his last ever book. He's out this year, I think, on next year he's retiring.

How will we cope? Somehow, I suspect we will. It's interesting. We have been rereading for our book club podcast of Offair, A Town Like Alice by Neville Shoe. And we were saying earlier, we've never had as many emails, have we, for one of our book club podcasts.

It was intriguing to reread it because very few people who had read it at the time went back to it and had the same feeling that it gives us now because it is so full of difficult language, should we put it that way, and misogyny, but at the heart is an absolutely cracking love story. I think the misogyny is interesting. I reread the Morse books.

And, you know, Morse, great, you know, great Colin Dexter and wonderful books. And when you read any books from the 70s and 80s, there is just this cast-off misogyny that I'm sure you guys would have appreciated far more than I did when I reread them. It's not like the books are built around misogynies. It's just there's moments where a woman will be assaulted and it's just thrown away. It's just like, oh God, that doesn't matter. Or she was asking for it. And it's not 15 pages.

It's just two sentences. And it's probably a good thing that they stand out so much now when you reread these books. Stig, lovely to see you. Lots of messages coming in about baked potatoes. Who does? Are they pro-jacket potatoes? Bake spuds. Mix the flesh with butter.

and cheddar stick in back in skins to melt serve with sour cream and chives done but also it's the combination of food and crime fiction food crime fiction nudity um what more do you want stick thank you the book is called a twist in the river it is the fourth jake jackson book honestly it's really quite good and it takes a lot me to say bless you and also thank you for reading it you didn't have to do it i do i appreciate that he can slag us off but we do read the books don't we we put in the hours I've noticed that. And he really puts in the hours and he's doing it from six tomorrow here on Times Radio. Stig Abel, you can hear him Monday to Thursday on Times Radio breakfast between 6 o'clock and 10.

It's a long, long shift he puts in. And then he manages to go and write novels as well. We don't understand how he does it. A twist in the river is his latest and it actually is out next Thursday. And if you follow Jake Jackson and his adventures, you'll definitely want to read this one. We are Jane and Fee at Times.com Radio. just to give you a heads up, we're off for the whole of next week. So if you want to maybe just pop us in your back pocket,

there are 7,254 episodes to choose from good luck with all of them. We're back tomorrow for a final hurrah before we disappear to eat all of the moulded chocolate. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday,

2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.