Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I'm a vintage blue tit!

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

The ladies are still not reunited but they're together in spirit, and wondering if they should put their faces on 3000 piece jigsaw puzzle. Well why not? Plus, explorer Levison Wood talks about the 10th anniversary of his book Across The Nile. Get your suggestions in for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, it's Mitch from Side Note Podcast, and I'm here to tell you about the new Google Pixel 9 powered by Gemini. Anyone who knows me knows the Pixel has always been my favorite out of all the phones I've ever had. Now with Gemini built in, it's basically my personal AI assistant. Since I'm truly terrible at keeping up with emails, I use Gemini to give me summaries of my inbox, which is a lifesaver. And if I'm feeling stuck creatively, I just ask Gemini for help and BAM instant inspiration.

You can learn more about Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com Hello, hello, hello Across calling across the water. Okay, look, it's like an episode of General Hospital, but you sound better to me. A bit better? Well, I don't know, Jane. It's not leaving my system as quickly as I would have hoped,

and I think it's just the respiratory virus thing that loads of people have got, and it's just a bit of a what's what's it and you just got to slightly wait for it to pass through you. So apologies again for any disruption caused. I don't think you can catch it by listening to the podcast. I think you'll all be okay but I know that it does leave you to shoulder a solo show in the afternoons and I apologise for that disruption. That's okay. I am just, I keep saying to people because there are people in my life who've got something very similar at the moment, I just keep clinging to the fact that the timing isn't bad and you might be okay by the 25th. The number

of times I've said that honestly you wouldn't believe. Well I totally agree. I mean I don't, I wouldn't wish anybody to be unwell around the Christmas season full stop but how horrible if you're knocked out on Christmas itself. And also if you don't realise when you go and stay with somebody that actually you're coming down with something horrible and you just give as your Christmas gift a really unpleasant virus to everybody that you're with. So I completely agree with you but I just, I find it obviously, I mean it's always frustrating isn't it when you're ill and

especially this time of year when you've just got 10,000 things to do so let's just you know can you ignore my illness and just pretend everything is fine? Okay but I do remember as a small child actually, the doctor coming to see me at home either on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. I mean those were the days I had a so-called weak chest which is something that was an affliction that many of us had in the late 60s and 70s. But that, I mean I'm not knocking GPs because I think on the whole they do a phenomenal job but that kind of thing just doesn't, it doesn't happen anymore does it really on the whole and it's probably to our detriment that it doesn't or can't happen. I'm not quite sure

which one of those two things it actually is. I'm sure it's to our detriment because it does mean doesn't it that actually especially if you're a, you do end up probably taking quite an ill child to the GPs and then you're spreading it around or you end up taking a very ill child to A&E. So yeah, it's just one of those things that you and I will have in our bank of memories as a rather more gilded time of the NHS, won't we? I think that's true and people, doctors listening can tell us, NHS, won't we? I think that's true and people, doctors listening can tell us, do you do home visits? Particularly, older people obviously are also people who are often very vulnerable at this time of year. So let us know, it's Jane and Fee at times.radio. Do you know what really cheered me up this morning on the

underground and it doesn't always work this but I got on a carriage and there was a small baby sitting opposite me and she was small. I mean she was possibly four months old, could have been less. And I'm saying it was a she because she was in a pink baby grow and had a very large pink bow in her hair. When I say in her hair, I mean actually on her head because she didn't actually have any hair just yet. And I thought I'd smile at her and see what happened and more often than not I'm

totally ignored but on this occasion this absolutely gorgeous little dot responded with a really broad grin so she was very much in the Christmas spirit I'll never know her name I wish her a long and happy life because she really really cheered me up this morning. She was so cute. Oh, that's lovely. And when she got off the train, she started screaming. It wasn't because she was missing me, it's because she was being put back in the buggy and she wasn't happy about that. But you know, sometimes these little, the little people on public transport can really cheer you up. Anyway, she did, she did that today. So thank you to her. Right. Do you smile? No I'm

going to ask you more questions about this when you're on the Tube. Yeah. Do you engage with people as in you know just smile at them if they're looking at you? I find the Tube a really weird place now because everybody is just head down in their phones aren't they? It's a very different kind of carriage experience. Nobody nods at you or kind of says can I squeeze aren't they? It's a very different kind of carriage experience. Nobody nods at you or kind of says, can I squeeze past or anything? Nobody speaks. I have occasional moments of eye contact with other passengers if another passenger, a third party, is behaving badly. And there'll be kind of shared acknowledgement that someone

is rather letting the side down. But that's about as far as it gets. The exception to this I have to say is the morning of the wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton when I was... Weren't you all singing? Well, you say that I was going to some rendezvous on the route for work and people, clearly not Londoners, people were crowding onto the tubes chatting sharing sandwiches opening bags of crisps I mean they hadn't got the hang of it at all it was very very peculiar and that's a real memory I've got of a dizzy experience on the London Underground but you're right on a daily

basis there's absolutely no talking at all you do wonder what would happen if phones just disappeared overnight what would our What would our lives be like? I think they'd probably be better. I'm sure they'd be better. I did glance across the program, there's an experimental Channel 4 thing, isn't there, being fronted by Matt Willis and Emma Willis, where they're taking away smartphones from kids in a school for three weeks and I mean it's mesmerising because I think especially for you and me, obviously I'm five years younger than you Jane, I don't know whether anyone's ever noticed that, but I think we're the worst generation to be largely responsible for young people, but to have really had no idea

what those young people's lives have been like. You know, the generation below us will be really canny about it. And the generation above us didn't have to think about it with us. So I think we're quite vulnerable to our naivety, aren't we? And just without a shadow of a doubt, Jane, kids are having a hard time because of smartphones. And just these poor little things, when they are having their phones

taken away from them, it makes them genuinely, genuinely anxious. Not just a bit weed off about it, but like properly, how does my life function? They can't comprehend that you can function without a phone. Yeah, and I would laugh at that, except there are a couple of occasions in every year when I lose my phone, and it's not a pretty sight, Fee. I mean, I am dashing around the house in a sweaty frenzy. I can't bear it, and I cannot wait to be reunited with the sodding thing. So I'm just as bad. But actually, you've also made me remember that, when I say remember,

it was literally 10 minutes ago. We're talking about Andrew Tate on the radio programme later on today. So I had a, because I know he exists, but I don't engage with any of his content. So I asked one of our colleagues, Young Felix, to show me his most recent posts on X. And everyone needs to see what this excuse for a man is actually publishing on there. I mean, it's beyond... Well, I haven't got the adjectives, I just don't have them and some of the stuff he was coming up with today, it's... well, okay, I literally can't even complete the sentence, but people, parents, carers, if you know he exists but you don't know what he says, I would just urge you to just to have a look, because this guy may not be influencing you, but he could well be influencing somebody

that you know quite well and yeah I honestly I was horrified really horrified really horrified. Can you just by filling in the bleeps can you just give us an example just of a sentence from one of his posts? Well I mean the one today was about well basically all women are prostitutes. today was about, well basically, all women are prostitutes. Hmm. I mean, no, it's, I mean, there we are. It's a joyful thing isn't it? Yeah. It's, um, I, okay, I mean, let's just, other people will, I suspect, be only too aware

of the kind of guff he comes up with, but that is, it's, and he's a preening fandango, a prune of a man, I mean he just looks utterly idiotic and increasingly so actually and he's supposed to be under, well he is under house arrest but in Romania so this is a story that I hope at some point reaches a conclusion but it never quite seems to. No, but I tell you what I know that we've got a lot of teachers haven't we amongst our audience and it would be really good to hear from them about how they've been dealing with it because

obviously within schools a lot of teachers have had to witness every single appalling, you know, unpleasant tasting dribble that has come from this man over the last five or six years and I think a lot of schools have done really well in combating it and tackling it but I think it's been such a hard hard thing to do and so maybe we could pop that in the bank until after Christmas something we could all look forward to maybe after a mid-spy or two and I tell you what just before I forget Jane, can I mention the apps that we were talking about yesterday? So these are safety apps that you use

if you are out and about on your own and you want to feel a bit safer. So the three that seem to be most highly recommended by people are StrutSafe, and that's the one where you can actually call and somebody will talk to you while you're walking home and you can have a chat with them let them know where you are and all that kind of stuff. It is manned by volunteers. There's another one that's recommended by quite a few police

forces called Holly Guard and that's H-O-L-L-I-E and then Guard and that's really clever Jane you can shake your phone and it'll send a message to a group of contacts that you've already put in your phone if you feel that you're in trouble and then there's one called Be Safe which is just the letter B followed by safe which shares your location with a bunch of friends that you've already keyed into the app so there are loads more available don't take my word for it because, you know, I haven't downloaded these and used them myself. But but those three seem to be recommended by other sensible people on Tintinette. Brilliant. Thank you very much. We've got some correspondence on that subject, actually.

And it's also worth saying, because it's not unconnected. The guest in this podcast will be the explorer, Leveson Wood. Now, he's the author of A Sunday Times bestseller fee, can you imagine such a thing? No, well we can't! No, exactly, they will break it to me gently. The book is called Walking the Nile and this is the 10th anniversary edition and I'm not knocking Leveson, he is ex-army and he's a very brave man, a very interesting one, but 10 years ago he walked or wrote about walking the length of the Nile. Now on the whole, although lady explorers have most

definitely existed, this kind of opportunity is very much available to men rather than women, isn't it? It just is. The opportunity to stick a backpack on, get a really fashionable looking neckerchief and go off exploring. And they do and I like hearing about their adventures but you don't hear enough about women who do the same. And by the way, I acknowledge here how many solo travellers we have emailing us telling us that actually they've gone all over the world and it's been fine but anyway it'll be interesting to hear Leveson's take on exploring a little bit later. Have you explored far and wide? I mean it's certainly you can't at the moment due to your poor health. Well no I've done that travel thing, you know, where we travelled for work

on the appropriately titled Travel Show. Yes, yes, of course. Not quite the same though. We were always with a great bunch of people. No, it's not. But interestingly, I very much felt protected and had to be made to feel more protected as often the youngest and female member of the crew when we were out and about doing stuff and the producers and directors were always very, very careful about that and it made me, I think, more fearful, maybe just more realistic about what it would be like travelling on my own. So I've never struck out completely solo. I tell you what, have you already done the interview with Mr. Wood or has it come in your way?

No, it's live. It's live? Is it live? Well, can you ask him? Anything could happen. Go on. Anything and sometimes it does, doesn't it? But most often it doesn't. Can you ask him about exactly these apps that women feel that they have to use and whether or not he feels the need to even have something like that on his person because that would be an interesting immediate mindset difference. I'm literally making a note of it and Rosie's in charge of the podcast today. She's also making a note of it. Hayley has emailed to say, I heard you read Bethany's email about walking in the dark and I could relate to that feeling of being trapped indoors during the winter. I moved to a new town a couple of years ago, posted an invitation in an online forum for ladies to come together for a walking group.

I touted it as a way to get some free exercise, fresh air and stimulate the senses in the dark whilst having a good chat. I've now got a regular troupe of between six and ten ladies all benefiting from the power of group motivation to get our bodies moving at a time when we'd otherwise be indoors. We walk for an hour, we cover about three miles and we explore our small county town using a different circular route that I devise. I should add I am not a natural leader or organiser but I was desperate to find a way to break the insecurities that I felt about myself. I fought my own misgivings and I went for it Haley and well done you and I'm glad that you found like-minded women prepared to get out there with you and just have a walk

I mean it sounds simple and in many ways it is simple, but you need someone to kickstart that kind of thing. Don't you? Yeah But you could do that because you have been what what was it, were you a blue tit? You were a leader of the blue, what were you? Patrol leader of the blue tits. I don't know why you struggle with that. To be fair, I haven't done it for a while. For some reason I've not committed that to memory. I've let it slip off. Do you remember what patrol I was in in the Brownies? No, I don't suppose you do. It was the Imp's actually. I don't think you've ever, no I would remember that, I don't think you've ever imparted

that to us before. That's a little nugget that everybody can have before Christmas. I mean I'm assuming that the guides still have the blue tits. I don't know. I thought it was a bold choice even in the 1970s but anyway I'm pretty certain that they still stick to... look I don't know. I really don't know. But also the blue tits are a cold water women's swimming group. A very, very, very well established. Yep. Well, that was a little sniff there that just reminded us that you're not. Stop it. Have you got, can you taste anything?

Not really. Oh, I know. I've got terribly dribbly eyes as well. It's just like I'm crying. Right. This one comes in, it's anonymous. It says, Dear Jane and Fee, following stories of unwelcome habits I wanted to share mine if it's not too gross and just to warn everybody, it kind of is. Okay. A couple of friends always come at New Year. They sleep naked.

How do you know that? Yes. But come come down to breakfast in dressing gowns. So far so good. Come down to breakfast in dressing gowns. So far so good. The husband's gown is a very short, slinky affair, only used for holidays, you understand. And I've always been worried about him sitting on my chairs with his early morning cup of tea as the gown rides up. So last year I asked him if he was wearing boxes

or if he had any pyjama bottoms. When he said no, I asked if his bits were actually in contact with my upholstery. With a little smile on my face, obviously. He did have the grace to squirm, pulling a little more material under him. But no, no, no. Surely it's disrespectful to me,

not to say disgusting and unnecessary. What do you think? Am I taking life and my precious home too seriously? Well, anonymous. God. No, you're not. It's your upholstery and you don't want that. I find that so bizarre, Jane, that somebody would want to be a bit immodest in somebody else's house, kind of deliberately just put your blooming clothes on.

There are a lot of questions that are clanging around in my head that possibly better stay in my head to be honest. First of all, how long has she known these people? A long long time. Well I think so it just says a couple of friends always come at New Year. Yeah I would imagine they're good friends. Yeah I think there's something quite pivotal about New Year. You wouldn't invite somebody that you'd only just met. And this bloke's been getting out his meat and two veg over New Year for quite a while. I mean, I just... No, of course you don't want...

You wouldn't want it on even a hard kitchen chair. You don't want it on anything soft. There's something... Oh! No, I think... I think she just needs to get new friends. This is absolutely appalling. I mean, I'm a bit sensitive about areas like this because I have a really horrific dressing gown at the moment,

but it's really warm and cosy. And the girls keep telling me that it's dreadful and that I need to get rid of it, but it does the job in the house. I am, however, banned from standing on the step, wearing it to wave them off in the morning and the other day one of them took a photograph of me wearing the dressing gown and I now know why I'm banned from wearing it in a public place

because it does look absolutely bloody awful. So that's all I'll say about my arrangements. By the way it was bin men tipping day to day and I did actually slide out of the house before light and I stuck an envelope with some cash on the wheelie bin and I think, well it's disappeared so hopefully I'll be in good odour with the binnies for the next 12 months. I'm sure you will be and well done for being so generous. Have you done the paper delivery person yet? I haven't. Rosie's just sent me an image of a blue tit.

Thank you. Not sent me, she's showing me. So that's still a Girl Guide? No, it's not, I don't think. It's vintage. It's vintage? Vintage? What are you saying? You can sell them on eBay for about 20 quid. If you still have the badge. I don't have the badge, Rosie. But I don't think it's a current. I just think that would cause even more alarm

if I were to put in my Girl Guide uniform at home. I don't think that's not what anybody wants. Leave that be. I think leave it. Oh dear, Jay. It's something else that's gone into the heritage category, hasn't it? You've got a heritage dressing gown. You belong to a vintage organisation for entertainment.

This is terrible. It is terrible. I'm a bit worried about the newspaper person because have you managed to tip yours? Well I haven't, no, but you see I was thinking that I've probably got until Christmas Eve on that one. Oh yeah, I suppose that's true. Our bin men's final collection will be tomorrow so I need to get that sorted. Thank you for your reminder. Yeah, thanks, okay. Shall we call in Denzel from Belgium?

Oh yes, he's back with us after that horrific email about his vasectomy last week. I'm just glad he's all right. He says thank you for letting me relive my oh-so-memorable vasectomy adventure. Rest assured, everything is all good now, both physically and emotionally. On a much cozier note, I wanted to send a big thank you to both of you for helping me transform my sleep routine. After years of battling relentless insomnia, I finally ditched my evening TV habit and instead I now spend an hour before bed indulging in two of life's simple pleasures. The first one is podcasts and I think we can all get on board with that obviously.

But the second one really surprised me, Jane. The zen-like joy of jigsaw puzzles and Denzel from Belgium says the results are life-changing. There's just something magical about piecing together a 3,000 piece puzzle while your voices keep me company. It is the perfect recipe for relaxation and a solid night's sleep. And he then says if anybody's up for a real jigsaw challenge, I dare you to try it without looking at the picture on the box. It's maddening at first but once you lock in that final piece it's totally worth it. I would have thought that was almost impossible. Is he seriously telling us that you can do that? We've had a thousand piece jigsaws in our house and they've gone down really well as a kind of

exercise in mindfulness but 3000 3000 3000 without without knowing what you're doing is remarkable isn't it isn't Belgium a challenging place? Goodness me I mean they've got the chocolate and they've got these huge jigsaws and they've got men still wrestling with the impact of a vasectomy but Denzel look if it works for you I mean I know damn well what would happen in our house if we got close to finishing a 3000 piece jigsaw. The cat would most definitely make her presence felt just at an inopportune moment and the whole thing would be a wasted effort. But anyway, I mean, that's, you know, I do see, I really do see the joy in a jigsaw now. That, I guess, is all part of our phone-based world, that

the jigsaw is the most gentle, well, it's undemanding, but only, but not, it's not because it's a mental exercise and it's, you need agility as well, don't you? Yeah, I think, isn't it, possibly, it could be our next merchandising opportunity, couldn't it? We could have a massive offer jigsaw. possibly it could be our next merchandising opportunity couldn't it we could have a massive offer jigsaw yeah Rosie's nodding um fee and I think you've come I think you've come through with something okay the Sunday Times bestseller has eluded us but just just late in the day there I honestly I wonder how much we're going to investigate that how much would it? I think they're really cheap to manufacture. There we are. You can have

anything turned into a jigsaw puzzle now. Right, I mean there are so many possibilities. A blue tit, for example, in flight. Three thousand pieces. That would keep Denzel and other listeners busy over the next 12 months. Just back to the whole walking in the dark and safety and all the rest of it. This is from Deborah who's in Northamptonshire. Oh, she does by the way have a PS. Would you like a hand knitted fleece lined Scandi style winter hat? See a touch pick of offspring wearing theirs. And all three of them look absolutely delighted with their hats.

If so, says Deborah, I'll add you to my list. It's a hobby. I'm running out of hatless friends and relations. Well, Deborah, it's a big yes from me. I'll take one of your hats. Will you have one, Fee? It's a huge yes from me. I cannot have enough hats on account of the very, very chilly dog walking. Right, there you go.

A hat with flaps. Hopefully there'll be two winging their way to us from Deborah in North Hampshire in 2025. She just says my daughter number two at the age of 25 had to get a cab from Amsterdam Airport to an Airbnb at one in the morning after her flight was delayed and then cancelled. Friends at the Airbnb had gone to bed and my daughter couldn't get hold of them. She'd been messaging me as I was waiting to track her flight online, it's a cheap hobby, we arranged that one, as she would get into the cab she'd call me, pretending I was an awake person who'd be letting her in at the Airbnb, and two, she would switch on the tracking thing

on her phone so I could follow the cab's progress on Google Maps. Just as interesting as tracking a plane, although more stressful. We did agree though that it was most unlikely that anything untoward would happen, but we did also think these were sensible precautions. I just don't think a man of the same age would have felt the need to make any such arrangements." And that, I think that's it isn't it that I mean Deborah speaks truth there I suspect that is true and it's just yes all the thinking and all the prep and of course she's very right to say statistically it's really unlikely that anything would go wrong and we need to cling to that but nevertheless I suspect

we'll keep on making the arrangement actually Marie just says I don't want to trivialise things but your correspondent who felt she shouldn't go out in the dark made me feel rather glum. Rather than going out to enjoy herself she seemed more concerned about the ratio of men to women she passed on the street. How strange to think of yourself as being brave for venturing out and then to be annoyed because she saw more men than women. I often jump on the bus or train to meet people in central London, sometimes on my own. I pass people on the street, men and women, old, middle-aged, young, sometimes even children. It wouldn't occur to me to do a head count.

That's life, it's a mix. Marie, I know you are one of our regular correspondents, we hugely appreciate your input and thank you for that. But I get what Marie is saying but I also understood what our original correspondent was saying. So, I don't know. More thoughts welcome on this. Too much Jane, I just think that it's one of those fears that statistics cannot dissuade you from having. So once you've got it in your mind, and I think we are taught very, very young as women, that something absolutely dreadful,

the worst of things might happen to you because it has happened to some other people, you can't dull that by statistics. I don't stand by the front door and think, you know, the chances of me being mugged or, you know, heaven for fun to my children being hurt on this current night out are X to one, therefore I will be able to dial down my anxiety. For me, I don't know whether other people can do that, but I can't do that. The statistics mean nothing

to me. I think that's just the truth of it for lots of people. Yeah, no it is, it really is. And there's nothing logical about the way we feel, I think particularly about our children. I worried less when they were away from home at university than I do when they're out and about in London, because I suppose there's a selfish element here. I know that I'm gonna be impacted by the front door slamming when they eventually get home.

But that's weird as well, there's no logic to any of this. Right, what about one more from you, one more from me and then we'll bring in our explorer. Okay, well you go first because I haven't got one ready. Bell ringing. Annie is a Quedgley town captain. I was one of those people who started ringing for the year 2000. I'm known as a millennium Ringer. I didn't know these people existed but how fantastic. And I've practiced the art ever since. Over the last 25 years I've rung in hundreds of churches all over the world and I've met so many lovely people. I've enjoyed the challenge of learning to ring and expanding my

knowledge by learning a wide variety of methods. It is challenging but it also keeps you fit and you meet a large number of like-minded people. Sadly though, numbers are dwindling so if anyone is interested in helping us to maintain this long standing craft please do get in touch with your local band. On the whole you don't need to be a churchgoer. OK, that's really interesting because we did have an email earlier in the week from, I think it was from a man who said he doesn't stay for the service. Or that's right, it was someone writing about their dad.

He's never been religious, he doesn't do the church bit. He just rings the bells and then goes home. Or probably goes to the pub, whatever it is. So I think that's rather good. And congratulations to all those people who are still ringing after taking it up to celebrate the Millennium. Is that... no I'm forgetting to get my maths right. Is it 25 years since... yes it is. So this... yes because it would be 1999 and 2000. And you know did you party like it was

1999 in 1999? Yes. Did you? Yes. Yes. Did you? No, because I had a two week old baby, but Did what did you do because I was very jealous well No, I didn't we went to the major city. I was in a very remote part of Scotland But there was something uncannily beautiful about that I'm rather jealous. Did you have bottled water because of the Millennium Bug? No.

You all together had a better time than me that night. I'll sense there's probably more to this story and I'll ask off air. Off air or off air? There is, but as soon as I tell you. Right. You'll realise why it's not for broadcast. Can I end just with a recommendation which comes in from Mark who says listening to you

speak about bollards reminded me of the fine social channel bringing you very good examples of bollards at work. Now if you just want to lose a couple of minutes of your time, if you type in World Bollard Association on the Twittersphere, then you can see this fantastic compilation of things that have gone wrong with bollards and it really will make you laugh. So thank you very much indeed for all that. Do you know what, it's one of those things isn't it, I just never, I never thought that my broadcasting career would include this but it appears to have. You've embraced it and look, and can I just say good for you and I keep saying I've got only one more but this is the last one from Sarah who just says, sending festive wishes to you. I'm a relatively regular correspondent. I am writing

this from the haven of my airing cupboard. I am hiding from my family and I think I mean look so soon so soon we're all going to be there. Only the 18th of December and Sarah's already if her kids and her partner perhaps are looking for Sarah she's in the airing cupboard. That's really mean. She'll come out in mid-January. OK, this is time. This is time. This is time. Yes, well, there's no doubt about that. It is time for our guest explorer, Leveson Wood.

Leveson Wood, hello, good afternoon to you. Good afternoon. You, I understand, are in Morocco, but I've been very firmly told you're not exploring, you're just on holiday. I'm just on a little holiday trying to get some sunshine before Christmas, yes. So what does an explorer do on a kind of holiday? Well, in this instance, I'm literally just relaxing by

the pool which is lovely. It makes a nice change from walking around the world which I've spent a lot of time doing over the last decade. Right, okay and I know a lot of people absolutely love your writing about all your trips so tell us a bit about yourself for anyone who doesn't know. What year did you leave the army, Leveson? Well I I left the army back in 2010, so 14 years ago now. I'd spent five years in the Parachute Regiment, having served in Afghanistan back in 2008. But I always wanted to be an explorer. It has been my boyhood dream. And so when I left the military, I went about coming up with some of the craziest

ideas I could imagine. So one of which was walking the length of the world's longest river, the River Nile. So that's what I set out to do. It took me a couple of years of preparing and getting ready for that expedition. But in the summer, spring, sorry, the autumn of 2013, I set off and it took me nine months of walking, almost four and a half thousand miles through six different countries. So it was a journey that launched my career in exploration and walking at lots of other places ever since. Right, and so just explain, where did you start, where did you finish? Well, you know, a lot of people have been debating the source of the Nile for a very long time. Many people say it's Lake Victoria, but actually there's a couple of tributaries that run into Lake Victoria,

so I thought if I'm going to walk 4,000 miles, I may as well walk an extra 250 to go to the furthest source. So I started on the border of Congo and Rwanda and walked all the way through Rwanda to Tanzania, all the way through Uganda, South Sudan, the North Sudan and then finished up at the Mediterranean Sea in Egypt nine months later. And bearing in mind what's happened since in the 10 years since the book first came out. Would it be possible to do the same journey right now? I think right now, sadly not. The situation in Sudan is very unpredictable and as we've seen it's sort of devolved into civil war in certain regions, so it's very, very difficult now. I passed through at a time where there was still civil war in South Sudan, which forced me to sort of veer off journey a little bit, but yeah, sadly the situation hasn't improved much in certain parts.

And your experience in Rwanda, I thought it was very interesting, I must admit I felt ashamed actually by how little I really knew about the situation in Rwanda post the genocide. So the year you were there, tell us what the atmosphere was like because you talk about a kind of collective amnesia amongst the population. Well so back in 2013, it was my first time in Rwanda, I was very surprised by how, just how sort of progressive the country was, how clean the country was, and how well people seem to get along, given the history and everything that had happened there in

the 1990s. And what I discovered was that under the president, who is known to be quite ruthless at times, but he engaged in a policy that essentially, once a month, forces all of the population to come together and go and clean their villages. They go out, they'll scrub the walls, they'll pick up the litter, trim the hedges. This collective teamwork, forced labour, so to speak, does seem to have had some sort of positive impact in bringing the Hutu and the Tutsi communities together over the years. And this has been going on now for the best part of 30 years. And what's happened is a pretty united country now, I have to say. I mean, there's obviously a long lasting legacy of

the trauma of the collective trauma but the only way to move on from that was was to force people to come together and things like just getting rid of the tribal names off identity cards so you didn't actually know which which community you came from has gone some way into bringing people together. Is it possible to tell people to forget however much of a strong leader you are? It's obviously very difficult, particularly given the horrors of some of the atrocities that went on. You know, it's hard to imagine what it must have been like, you know, people within their own communities doing atrocious things or having atrocious things done to

you by your neighbours. So how do you forget all of that? But the alternative, frankly, is much worse, which is just carrying on with the same patterns so I think there wasn't much choice but to try to put it all in the past. What do you think of, I think it was Ed Sheeran wasn't it, who said that he had he been asked would have refused to have his vocals on the Feed the World, the Live Aid song this Christmas because he felt that that kind of approach to Africa was just not, it wasn't right anymore. Do you think he had a point? Because it is, there are countries in Africa that are really challenged. There are also countries that frankly could

teach us a thing or two. I would agree with that sentiment entirely. I think given some of the rapid progress that we've seen in parts of Africa, Rwanda being a very good example of how progress has come thick and fast. You know, Rwanda was a pioneer in banning plastic bags and like I say, acts of environmentalism that was shown there. But there's other countries too, Nigeria that's doing economically incredibly well and very good examples all across the continent of how things can be done in a very good way.

So actually, I don't think Africa needs pity. What Africa needs is just opportunities, business opportunities. So that's a really important point, I think. And actually, we've seen the aid, and this is no disrespect to people that work in the aid sector, but frankly, here we are all these years on since aid has been pouring into Africa and you know has that improved things much? Hard to say, arguably not. Yeah, we've had a bit of a conversation developed on our podcast Off Air with Jane and Fee available on all good podcast platforms Monday to Thursday at around 6 o'clock

about women's safety and about women being, shall we say, somewhat reluctant, kind of against their will to go out in the dark. So what I'm saying is we've had emails from women who say, I'm fearful of going out in the dark. I wish I wasn't. I'm angry that I'm fearful. Could a woman have done what you did? It's an interesting point. I think that I thank my entire safety down to the people that I met along the way who looked after me and I think that would be applicable as a man or a woman. I don't think just trying to do it on your own as a man is particularly wise either. You know I was thankfully I had guides, I had colleagues, you know there are certain parts where it was dangerous both from the wildlife through national parks for instance, I had guides, I had colleagues, there were certain parts where it was dangerous,

both from the wildlife, through national parks, for instance, where I had to have an armed escort for a few days or a week here and a week there. So you're really putting yourself at the mercy of people that you meet and the communities that you meet along the way. I think doing anything of this nature alone would be pretty dicey, even more so for a woman. But thankfully I was rarely alone because there were so many people that I met along the way that wanted to come and walk with me. Yeah. But you take it though, the kind of intrepid travel that we all enjoy reading

about and I certainly enjoy it, it is traditionally done by men and it still seems frankly easier for you. Traditionally yes but equally there's lots of examples of incredible female pioneers and explorers people like Freya Stark and Isabella Bird in the Middle East, Amelia Earhart for instance you know there's incredible lady explorers out there and there still is so long may that continue and I'd encourage anyone male or female you, if that's your passion to travel and see the world don't be don't be put off by some of the negativity that we see in the news. Yeah what, I mean I was intrigued at one part of the book you claimed to have walked quite a long distance in flip-flops Leveson. Why and how?

Well I think at one point my feet were so bruised and inflamed from all of the walking that I couldn't even get my boots on. So I kind of had to wear flip-flops. There wasn't much choice in it. I'll never forget when I got to Egypt, having spent the vast majority of the previous seven or eight months walking in my old army boots, I spoke to a podiatrist who said, oh, when you get on the roads in Egypt, get rid of those old long boots,

just put some trainers on and you'll be fine. But that was the worst advice I'd ever heard because actually when I got there, I did exactly that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I started walking a pair of trainers and at that point, my feet just fell apart and I had blisters on blisters, which was incredibly painful.

I think there's a lot to be said, you know, if you're into a rhythm, if it's working for you personally, and I think, you know, whatever it is in your health, it's a very personal matter. So go with whatever works for you. Yeah, people, quite seriously, people have sometimes very sensitive feet, but other people don't. Do you think you're in the sensitive foot department or are you relatively hardy foot-wise? I mean I spent a number of years in the army where this was my job running up and down

hills and wearing boots and giving my feet a good old battering. I have to say a lot of it is just simply practice and getting your boots worn in and getting your feet used to it but you know 80-90% is mental as well. It's like it is going to hurt yes but you just got to if you want to do this sort of thing you just got to get on with it and overcome those hurdles and I think the emotional and you know it definitely out beats the sort of the physical in terms of what it takes and you're just getting your mind prepared for the most part. And if you could pick one moment or perhaps one view of that trip walking the length of the Nile, what would it be? For me I think

crossing the Sahara Desert in the height of summer was one of the most painful and discomforting experiences of my entire life but reaching the pyramids of Meruwi in Sudan, I mean very few people realise there's more pyramids in Sudan than there are in Egypt, was like something out of Indiana Jones, it was a really magical experience to see these pyramids, there was no security, no fences, just writhing up out of the desert, that was very very magical for me. Is it really true then, Sudan has more pyramids, why don't we know this? Well Sudan's been off the sort of tourist radar for a very long time for lots of reasons but hopefully one day soon it can receive the recognition it deserves because there's an incredible history.

The people there are phenomenally friendly, far more so than some of its neighbors and I love Sudan. It's one of my favorite countries in the world. Yeah, it's having an absolutely horrific time at the moment. Who are the most unfriendly people? No just say it. Well I did I have to say I was walking through Egypt and I got quite a few stones thrown at me when I was when I was walking down the Egyptian Nile but the Egyptians have had 2,000 years of tourism so they've kind of had their they've had their time. Okay thank you very much. Very briefly, what's your next trip? Oh, well, I've actually been spent the last two years researching trees.

So I've got a new book coming out all about trees as well in the New Year. So watch this space. Thank you very much, Leveson. That is Leveson Wood and that reissued book is called Walking the Nile. It's the 10th anniversary edition. And actually, honestly, it will appeal to the intrepid traveller, book is called Walking the Nile. It's the 10th anniversary edition and actually honestly it will appeal to the the intrepid traveler, the adventurer in your life. Leveson thank you very much. That is Leveson Wood and the book if you'd

like to get a copy out in paperback now it's called Walking the Nile. It's the 10th anniversary edition of his epic trip alongside that river which I was going to say it's a long river I think people probably knew that you know I don't think you can say that often enough and people would appreciate your unique geographical insight so many many thanks also a good reminder of one of my bands that I haven't revisited for a while, The Blue Nile. Oh, The Blue Nile. Good band.

Very good band. Very good. Okay, right, that's enough. Hopefully, Fee will be in the flesh in Podcastland tomorrow because your present is now not only in the office, Fee, but has been wrapped and has a label on it. So... Oh, okay, no pressure. No pressure at all but if that doesn't entice you back to Times Towers I don't know what will. Thank you to everybody for listening and we are edging ever closer to the most exciting time of the year. You can chip

in at Jane and V at Times.radio. Congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.