Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I'm actually quite cynical about everybody (with Bob Harris)

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

The heat just keeps getting to Jane as she becomes borderline delirious in this episode. They also chat Jane's intentions to get in the House of Lords, the joys of white bread and Coldplay (again).Plus they’re joined by radio presenter “Whispering Bob” Harris. Details of The Songs The Beatles Gave Away UK tour are available at bobharris.org  If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]. Follow our instagram! @JaneandFi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Good evening. Now, you join us in the decompression chamber of Off Air. Now, let's just throw over to Fiona Susanna Glover for her assessment of the final conversation on our Times Radio show today. So we did an interview in AmeriCorner, which is our new feature. It's all about America and it lives in the corner of our show. And it was with a woman called Sarah Elliott, who's a representative of Republicans overseas in the UK.

And it just got a bit heated, Jane, didn't it? It's very difficult. Sometimes the radio clock defeats you. So she was talking about Donald Trump, but making a lot of comparisons to Hillary Clinton. The emails. She's not forgotten the emails. The emails of Hillary Clinton versus the stacked up documents

that we have seen photographs of all across Mar-a-Lago. And Donald Trump is in court today in Miami facing charges of taking all of those home and doing whatever he did with them. And his popularity has increased. He's had a bump. But it was just one of those conversations that just got very heated very quickly.

And sometimes on radio, you can feel that happening. You just think, it would be lovely if I had ten minutes we could really pick this apart but it was 5830 James 5830 you got all about a minute really yes when we were talking about Ron DeSantis and I mean he does have a policy within education doesn't he in America of critical race theory I yes i don't think there's he's transgender right he's not a liberal democrat is he let's let's put it that way where he's a republican but women's rights yeah it revoked and it just it was so frustrating so my blood pressure is a bit high is it okay yeah well we've only got when is the american presidential

election it's some time i put it to you, your blood pressure may continue to rise. Pay a visit to your GP if you can get an appointment. OK, so that's not going to happen. But I suppose what, there's no room for grey areas or nuance here. I mean, I think people like Sarah Elliott want to believe that the likes of you and I, I mean, nailed on pinko liberals, think only good, only sunshine beams from the bottom of people like the Bidens, the Obamas and the Clintons. That isn't what we think. We can see

everybody for what they are. I'm actually cynical about almost everybody. And I don't think these people, the democratic aristocracy in America are saintly. I'm sure they're not. We know they're not. are saintly. I'm sure they're not. We know they're not. But Donald Trump is from a whole other... Yes, his playbook. It's just ridiculous. It's extraordinary. Make comparisons. Utterly ridiculous.

So anyway, that's what went off and I will now calm down in the company of you lovely listeners to the Off-Air podcast. But good evening to our American audience. Very good evening. We're very grateful to all of you. And if you can explain why, because I think a lot of people in Britain,

and certainly people, if we're honest, like us, really struggle to see why the more stuff comes out about Donald Trump, the more he's able to play that witch hunt card and improve his ratings. I don't get it. So the witch hunt stuff in this instance because there have just been some incredibly clear photographs posted up all over twitter all over social media which actually wouldn't happen in this country of evidence that's going

to be presented in court this afternoon in miami of all of these boxes spilling out all over his private residence uh that contain, you know, God knows what. I mean, apart from nuclear codes and all of that headline stuff, it's quite likely to just be information that might be immensely personal to some people. So I just don't understand, A, why he took them all home and B, how you could possibly say that there's a witch hunt. I mean, he took them home. How can that be? Well, I think Biden

has also, he's got documents too, hasn't he? I think there seems to be some weird tradition. What have you taken home from work, Jane? I've taken some documents. I've taken the occasional notebook and I've got a couple of marker pens. Oh, I've definitely got some highlighters. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, we've all done it. But classified documentation, no. No, not so much.

Not on my charge list. Also, I would love for a historian to tell us what an actual witch hunt was like for the poor, poor people on the receiving end of it. Yeah, because it wasn't actually that long ago. It was only a couple of, was it a couple of hundred, maybe three or four hundred years ago that the last woman was hung for witchcraft. Yeah, and I don't think that photocopying was involved. No, I don't think it was. So we're not that far removed from the time

when there really were hunts for witches. The witch finder general. Remember him? Yeah. And most of the witches, Donald Trump, were ladies. They weren't you. Anyway, okay, look, let's crack on then. Let's crack on. We've got lovely emails, haven't we? Elena, good evening. I'm one of your German listeners.

I have to jump in, she says. You have to. I have to. I'm thinking of Nadine Dorries, because I've been channelling a lot of Nadine. She's a Liverpool lady who has been deprived because of class prejudice of her rightful place in the House of Lords, and that is the gospel according to Nadine. So what I'm going to do now is to prove to Nadine

that ordinary Scousers can get into the House of Lords by getting there myself. Let's see if I can do it to prove her wrong. Will you be befriending a posh boy? It starts here. Who is the poshest boy you know? And can they help you get into the House of Lords? Ooh, got me thinking.

I'll make a few calls tonight. Okay. Milena says, I want to talk about the issue... I can't say this at all. Can you read this email? Give it to me. Sorry, Milena, it's my fault, not yours. Hello from one of your german listeners i obviously had to jump onto the topic of noise free sundays in germany i can confirm that it's true we're not allowed to do anything too loud

around the house like mowing the lawn or drilling and in general i love that but not in my current life situation me and my husband are renovating an entire house and are both working full-time during the week which means we only have Saturdays and holidays to get any kind of progress with our renovations. We just spent two weeks of our holidays digging a huge pit around our house so we could finally isolate our basement from the outside. On those Saturdays we also try to fit in drives to the recycling centre to get rid of old tiles and other stuff that doesn't go into the regular bin. They're closing at 12.30 latest.

Oh gosh, there's quite a lot of pressure here, isn't there, Melina? So you can imagine the stress of getting everywhere there in those few hours. Same goes for some shops, depending on the area that you live in. I hope this gives you an idea of life in Germany and its flares and flaws. Well it's a real, that is a very interesting and rather different approach isn't it? But it does put pressure on people. So how would you do any DIY in Germany? With a lot of planning. And maybe taking some days off. I think one would have to and it's unthinkable. Hello to Carol who says,

I'm a West Yorkshire lady. I listen every day from the north shore of Long Island. I just had to mention that I make every effort to dry my laundry outside. It's my small gift to the environment and I've come to love my slightly rough towels after they've been dried outside. You see, I'm not keen on that.

Anyway, I'm proud to say, says Carol, I made it through last winter only using the dryer two and a half times. Also, I must mention I listened to your podcast in the evening after I've watched Emmerdale on BritBox and I've listened to The Archers. It's my slice of

home. So much has changed since I left in 1975 but I like to cling to some of the things that haven't. I hate Fridays when you aren't there, says Carol. Oh, gosh. Listen again to Mondays. I tell you what, if you haven't been in the UK since 1975,

a lot has changed. Because that was pre-Margaret Thatcher. Yeah, and also I think Emmerdale's changed. It used to be Emmerdale Farm. Emmerdale Farm. And Annie Sugden would always have a great big crusty white loaf on her table. I used to be very jealous of the Sugden family. Because they had white bread. Because they had white bread.

And yes, because they had white bread. My mother had moved on to brown. She'd discovered it. And I always remember the terrible day that butter disappeared and was replaced by flora. Oh, dear. She'd heard it was better for us. Dark days. They were dark days.

Yeah, they really were dark days. Anyway, come on. Now, I'm going to read this from Emma. And there's a bit in it that's going to make you really, really angry. But then we can talk about our lovely guest. Is it about Cilla? No. I usually listen as I commute between schools for my job as a mental health practitioner,

often marvelling at how relatable your podcast is. I felt today, Monday the 12th, the signs were all there that I should finally get in touch. Do you still dislike that phrase? Unlike your contributor today, I have written to a show before, although never had anything read out, and I now look back on the two not taken up letters to Jim or Fix It in the 80s as very fortunate. Although I did really want to use a Bugsy Malone splurge gun at the time. Today I had to agree with Fi, here's where you need to steady yourself, Gav,

that while I have nothing against the Beatles, I would prefer to listen to the Stones. And I wonder why my son studies one and not the other for A-level music. It gets better, don't worry. So does her son study the Beatles? Yes, but not the Stones. Quite right too. As I stopped off at Lidl

and they were refilling the low GI cob loads straight from the oven, I knew Jane would approve. Did you get a warm one? So I had to pick one up. Is it the healthy sounding title that adds to the deliciousness and makes it okay to have an extra chunk?

I think, so what I'm doing at home often is if I've got one of those loaves, I'll have the crust as a starter and then I'll have just with butter and then I'll make a sandwich with the next two slices. Okay. And does the crust actually give your teeth a proper

workout? It gives you a real going over so it's excellent. But it's a lovely aperit slices. Okay. And does the crust actually give your teeth a proper workout? It gives you a real going over. Yeah. So it's excellent. But it's a lovely aperitif. Lovely. Yes. Very nice. There's another bit that I do want to get to, if that's okay.

Because Emma went to see Coldplay last week and felt genuine rage when people naysay them without ever having seen them. She's been lucky enough to see them twice now and would argue that no one could leave a Coldplay concert and not feel uplifted. From my view, amongst the 59,000, Chris Martin and all seemed like genuinely good people.

The very nice upper arms don't hurt. And I often think the stressed and anxious teens I spend my days with would feel a lot better if Coldplay concerts were available on prescription and the positivity shared perhaps something Rosie could pass on during the next family chat I really hope that Rosie is still listening because like we said on the earlier one we were a little bit worried that we'd slightly kind of dobbed her in keep doing what you're doing you definitely bring a

much needed smile to my face every day and I just completely agree with you Emma there is something completely lacking in guile about everybody at a Coldplay concert, which I haven't experienced, actually, in any other musical setting. So I think as a mental health practitioner, you know your stuff too. So thank you for all of that. And hello to Maxine, who says, I caught your mention of dementia a couple of days ago while I was out planting some squash seedlings. There is so much that's right about what you both said but I wanted to let you know a bit more from my own experience. I was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in September of last year and it's been quite a ride in the last nine months or so. I was determined to get an early diagnosis. A close friend died during lockdown

so I'd known some of the awfulness of it during the last couple of years. I'm 75 now, but many people don't know that dementia can happen to anybody of any age. It's not just because people are staying alive longer. Maybe we're diagnosing it better, I don't know. The biggest shock for me has been other people's reactions, not my close friends and family. They know me and know that I'm still just myself, just a bit weirder than I already was. I've been open and I'm setting up a group for peer support with people in a similar place. So I've been busy talking to people I don't know. Here are some of the reactions. Number one, you don't look like you've got dementia.

And a friend of mine then always replies, well, you don't look like you're stupid. Other people said you're not old enough. Well, I'm 75, says Maxine. Another reaction, people are getting diagnosed with dementia all the time now. It's one of those fads. People actually do say that to her, apparently. And the final one, it's the carers I feel for. Right. So do I, says Maxine, but it's not a contest.

I could go on and on, but this is a request for you to cover more about dementia in your programme and from people who have it. We do have a voice. Maxine, thank you for that. I really appreciate that email. I think it's incredibly important, actually. And in fact, you are. We are covering it. Just come to me. to me it's Wendy Mitchell yes who's coming on

the program it's the last Monday of June so it's the 26th yeah Jane's on her holidays lying down in a dark room because it's just after her birthday so I'll be talking to Wendy and I'm really looking forward to that I think it's the third book that she's written isn't't it? They've been really insightful, helped so many people already. So we definitely will be talking some more. Yeah. And any other listener, people listening now or somebody in your family, if you want to tell us what the impact has been on you to get that diagnosis, whether diagnosis at least gives you some, I don't know, some clarity,

at least you know where you are and how have other people in your life treated you? What things have they said helpful and unhelpful at this time? Jane and Fi at Times.Radio. Maxine, thank you. And thank you for listening. Really appreciate it. Do we want to introduce our lovely special guest today? Yes, the special guest today is Bob Harris, really known for, well, all sorts of stuff, really. Did you work with him?

Well, I did, and I was just going to say he makes a reference to the radio station that he was working at that I joined in the mid-1990s. So it was GLR, which was the BBC local radio station for London. But it was just the most extraordinary kind of hotbed of musical... It was a hotbed. I think we'll just leave it there. I heard rumours in the countryside where I was, safely tucked away. It played a lot of music and it had amazing people on it, like Bob Harris.

And I just would like to say he was so welcoming because he was Bob Harris, you know, from the old grey whistle test. He knew absolutely everybody in music. He knew everything about music. You know, he could have been one of those slightly kind of patronising older men in music. Have you met any of those? We have met them from time to time. But he wasn't like that at all.

He was really, really welcoming. And it was nice of him to mention the station, actually, because it's long gone now. Yes. Much love, though, wasn't like that at all. He was really, really welcoming. And it was nice of him to mention the station, actually, because it's long gone now. Yes. Much love, though, wasn't it? It was. It was. It was of its time as well.

Another thing people used to say of it. Of its time and a hot bed. Emphasis on both hot and bed. Oh, no, don't say that, because it wasn't, actually. It was. No, I'm going to defend it for just a... No, OK, I won't. Right, so Bob Harris was our guest this afternoon,

host of the Radio 2 Country Music Show, Old Grey Whistle Test, of course, but he's written a preface to a book that was properly nerdily interesting, actually, called The songs the Beatles gave away it's actually by a man called Colin Hall and Colin Hall is the guy who used to be the custodian of what is now a National Trust property in South Liverpool but it was where John Lennon grew up his auntie's home in Woolton I think it is actually it's called the Mendips

so they are touring the UK talking about the book, Colin and Bob. So if you're a Beatles completist, you won't want to miss that. I bet it's a really good evening, actually, because Bob really does. He's just a muso. There is nothing worth knowing that he doesn't know. So we asked him to cast his mind back, really. Bob's written about his own visit to John Lennon's childhood home, which was actually, of course, his Auntie Mimi's. So here we go. We should say we do at some point reference music, but because of copyright reasons,

we aren't allowed to include the music here, which is a shame, but I'm afraid it's just a fact. So you'll just have to imagine hearing Cilla Black singing Step Inside Love. Would you like to reprise that? No. You know I wouldn't. Step inside love.

Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas, I'll keep you satisfied, and Peter and Gordon's A World Without Love. They're all referred to, and they were all part of the Times radio show. But here we go. Here's Bob. Yes, it was owned by his auntie Mimi. She was quite a strict disciplinarian, actually. And so eventually, when the Beatles got started and John was able to sort of break away, he had this quite sort of suppressed wild streak to him.

But he absolutely adored his Auntie Mimi. And she was great. She looked after him. I think she was quite a formidable person herself. But, yeah, so John was in menlove avenue in liverpool and uh all was just around the corner uh in forselin road so yeah they were they would they live close to one another and they actually met uh on the 6th of July 1957. John's band, The Quarrymen, were playing at a local church fete and Paul peddled down to see the band. Already, you know, John was a huge hero of his.

So he went down to see them play in the afternoon at the fete and then in the evening the band were playing another set actually in the church hall itself. And that's where Paul introduced himself to John. Right. I mean, those are wonderful, those sliding doors moments, aren't they? I mean, what if John hadn't turned up for the gig for whatever reason? What if Paul had just got a better offer and didn't go to a church fete that afternoon? I know. It's just remarkable.

It is. You know, Jane, honestly, you've kind of hit a massive nail on the head because when you think about all the pieces that the dominoes said that had to fall into place in exactly the right order for the Beatles to become what they became, not least of which, you know, as we go further into their history, what they became, not least of which, you know, as we go further into their history, but even, for example, the combination of them and George Martin, you know, because George was absolutely the right person to express their ideas. And as their ideas became more and more complex, so George was able to handle those ideas because of his previous experience with comedy records, with the goons.

I mean, we know that John Lennon was a huge fan of the goons and Spike Milligan in particular. So every now and again, you know, there is a goonish kind of quality to some of the Beatles' recordings. And whatever sound effects or whatever tricks or production, amazing sort of production sounds that the Beatles wanted to create, George Martin could realise those sounds for them. It was an amazing combination. Actually, that's reminded me, of course, we need to ask you about this AI-assisted song that Paul McCartney has been talking about today.

What do you think George Martin would have made about that? Well, George was so encouraging of new technology. So I'm not sure that he would have been completely behind the idea of AI taking over songwriting. I mean, that's another issue altogether. But the Beatles did put out Free As A Bird, didn't they, in the mid-90s, about the time you were on GLR, I think, Fee, that record came out.

And that was based on a demo that John had done before he passed away, that the Beatles and Jeff Lynne, I think it was, sort of built the production around. So now that they've got AI, they're able to make an even better job of it nowadays, I would say. So you don't seem outraged by this then. You're actually OK with it, Bob? I thought you might have taken a firmer line.

No, I'm OK with it. I was okay with Free as a Bird. You know, anything that gives us another chance to experience something that John created is good by me. Now, I just wanted to mention the title of this book again. It's The Songs the Beatles Gave Away. And between the two of them, and I know George Harrison also wrote songs as well, but they must have written, what, hundreds or thousands of songs? Hundreds, yeah. Right. Let's just hear some of them then. The songs that other people made famous.

We'll talk about what they were after we've heard them. But here we go. And I regret to say that Fee turned her headphones down when Cilla started to sing. Bob, what do you make of that? So the tour and the book, actually, is based on a documentary radio programme that Colin and I made for Radio 2. Colin and I made for Radio 2. It was the follow-up program to a documentary called The Day John Met Paul, where we traced that moment where the two of them came together. And as we were saying earlier, nobody even imagined the significance of that moment at the time. But Colin and I loved working together on The Day John Met Paul. And Colin had an idea for a follow-up documentary called The Songs the Beatles Gave Away, of which there are 29 in total.

So we started doing a lot of research. We began to find some of the odd singles that we didn't necessarily have in our own collection and began to build this documentary. We spoke to everybody connected to the songs themselves, including Paul, who gave us a really, really wonderful interview. And so we put the documentary together. Colin wrote the book based on the documentary. And now we're touring the book and the documentary because the book has just come out. Yeah, it's complicated, but we get the message, Bob. I mean, how would you, can we generalise about the songs they did give away? Were they in some way substandard, not good enough for the Beatles?

Or were they songs that they thought other people could do better? A bit of a combination of the two. The very first song that you could say the Beatles gave away, because what we're talking about here is songs that one or other of the Beatles wrote or took a hand in writing, but which the band never released themselves. So the first song that falls into that category was actually written by an artist called Johnny Gentil who the Beatles were on tour with. They were backing him, if you can believe it, in 1960.

And he and John Leonard were sitting in the back of a bar and Johnny Gentil had been working with this particular song. There was a little bridge that he wanted to um to just fill and he'd been rattling around with some ideas and john said oh i've got something for you and john just sang a couple of lines with the lyrics and everything else and johnny gentle went wow that's incredible did you just come up with that and he said yeah and in the interview that we did with johnny gentle he said that was the moment that he knew that John Lennon was a special talent because to just come up with something like that. So I've just fallen for someone was the first.

And then we traced the story through until the last song, really, that Doris Troy on Apple, George Harrison in the early 1970s. So there are 29 of the songs altogether. And as I say, we've just sort of delved into the history of each of them. Toby in Cardiff has mentioned Come and Get It by Badfinger. I confess, I think I do know it, but it doesn't come immediately to mind. Perhaps we'll try and dig that one out. Come and Get It by Badfinger. She hollered next door. Actually, Toby's very rude. He says, every time I hear Cillailla black singing i wonder why she had a career um i genuinely i know she has a distinctive style cilla black but she was all right wasn't she i rather liked her her singles certainly honestly jane okay so um we knew that paul had written step inside love obviously so then we begin to just, again, do some research.

We talked to Cilla. She told us about the demo that she recorded of that song with Paul and with George Harrison in a little studio in Soho in the beginning of 1968. Cilla was the first female artist to have her own regular television programme on the BBC. I mean, that sounds unbelievable now, but it was true. And she wanted something to welcome people in, to make them feel that they were welcome, comfortable, you know, come in, everybody, make yourself at home. Yeah, yeah.

She talked with Paul and he said well how about this one they took it into a little demo studio and honestly cilla all the way through it is just it's the first time she'd heard it paul is playing an acoustic guitar and humming uh in the background george is sitting in the studio with them making comments. And this little demo does exist, and we found it. So we included it in the documentary, and we're going to play a little bit of it also on the tour. And I can honestly tell you that Cilla's vocal performance is absolutely beautiful. It really is.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhonehone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone. Who was the better songwriter out of Lennon and McCartney, Bob? Oh, Jane, that's an impossible question to answer. I mean, they had different styles. We know that. John's was more raw.

Paul's was more raw. Paul's was more rounded. I think, you know, as a characterisation, as a generalisation anyway, that's possibly true. But, you know, you put the talents of the two of them together and then you have something that really transcends almost anything else that any other composing duo has ever created. It's really difficult to say. I mean, Paul is still making fantastic music, isn't he? John's life was cut so tragically short.

Who knows what he would have been doing as he got into his later life? I wouldn't personally myself choose one over the other. I think they inspired each other as well to reach huge heights. Can we talk a little bit more about your own career, Bob, which has been immense and glorious? And you're known to a whole generation of TV viewers as the host of the old Grey Whistle Test. TV's interesting, isn't it?

It plays so little part in music promotion now but back in the day it was massive wasn't it who do you think benefited the most from being on the old grey whistle test oh i would say initially uh bob marley and the whalers you know that was a real breakthrough performance in 1973. People hadn't seen them before, and then there they were. I've talked to Trevor Nelson about this. Trevor was eight when he saw them, and he said even at that age it changed his life. He realised that somehow being involved with music

is what he wanted to do. There was a band called Focus, crazy Dutch band, with Thies van Leeuwen, who used to do um there was a band called focus crazy dutch band um with tees van lea who used to do yodeling and a brilliant guitarist called jan ackerman and when they appeared on the program they had a massive impact meatloaf later on leonard skinner and we did bring curtis mayfield and as the show got more and more into its run so you know three or four years we're talking about 75 76 77 mike appleton and i were more and more going over to america and filming over there and bringing back music from the bands we were discovering so then i would say people like tom petty and the heartbreakers the cars you, you know, just before that, Bonnie Raitt, Jackson Brown, really, you know.

But to be fair, let's face it, at the time, there were only two music programs on TV. One was Top of the Pulse, which was the singles program. And the other was the Old Grey Whistle Test, which was the album program. So if you wanted to hear the latest album music, you obviously tuned into Whistle Test every week. And so it became quite a meeting place for the whole UK music community. And do you welcome the enormous kind of democratisation now through social media and through streaming platforms?

Or is there a little bit of you, Bob, that yearns for the discipline of those earlier times? Yeah. Well, yes, I am slightly conflicted because on the one hand, nowadays, young artists have got so many new opportunities to get their music out on various platforms. And if you are really creative you can

do you know create a platform of popularity for yourself just online and I can give you a really good example of this there's an artist that I absolutely love called Kessie Gill UK artist, who, when lockdown happened, started a weekly Friday evening sort of home concert. She did it every week all the way through COVID. And week by week, she began to build this audience for this show, which then they began to know one another as the Friday night club. So when she actually got back out onto a stage, all these people that had been watching her online now came out to watch her at gigs. I did a few with her myself.

And the atmosphere that she creates is incredible. So, you know, there's a lot of noise out there, but it can be done. However, what we do miss, I miss anyway, is the commitment that record labels would used to make to build artists' career over a long period of time. And I always think that the label, the example of that at the time was A&M. Because, for example, they signed Joan Armatrading in 73. They stuck with her for three years before Love and Affection.

Same with Supertramp. Even to a certain extent, same with the police. You know, they were willing to sign a band and then back them. And we don't get that kind of commitment anymore, which is a big, big shame. Bob, it's been a real delight to hear from you this afternoon. When can people see you and Colin talking about the Beatles in such loving detail?

Well, we've got 60 gigs all together, the first of which is in Wales at the end of the month. But anybody who wants to see the whole gig list, then may I suggest my website, which is bobharris.org. That is the brilliant Bob Harris talking there about how the old record labels really used to commit to artists that they had faith in and just gave them time really to sort of nurture their genius. It doesn't happen to quite the same extent now.

Bob has been unwell, but he was looking pretty good today, wasn't he? He said he felt OK. Yeah, and he sounded great. Just that list that he railed off about artists who had appeared on the old Grey Whistle Test. I mean, that was astonishing in itself. Well, yeah, it was. And I must be honest, although I was a music fan, I didn't watch the old Grey Whistle Test.

I think I thought it was for blokes. Yeah, well, I think you weren't alone in that at all. I feel a bit guilty about that. And it was one, I mean, if you haven't ever come across it, you can find some hits and highlights on the YouTube. But you've got to cast your mind back to a time when really there wasn't any set design at all. Set design?

No. There wasn't any kind of shebang going on about the old Grey Whistle test, was there? It was a lot of talking between men and then this amazing band would come on. And do their thing. But Top of the Pops, I think, grabbed our hearts more, didn't it? Yeah, it did. There's no talking at all.

Well, there was. Peter Powell did a bit of banter, a bit of quirky giggling. Did you ever apply for tickets to be on Top of the Pops? No, because I knew I wouldn't be selected because they always pick the sort of really perky girls around the DJs, didn't they? They did. That wouldn't be me

standing there in my duffle coat looking anxious. I wouldn't have been picked. So no. So but I mean, how much would I have loved to go? Quite a lot actually. Yeah. But my first gig was brilliant because it was Blondie. And I've mentioned that before.

But my favourite ever gig was the Teardrop Explodes at the Floral Hall in Southport. You're lucky to see them because the teardrop explodes were meant to come to the University of Kent at Canterbury. Oh dear, and? Well-known centre of academe, as you often say. And it was going to be the highlight of what was, otherwise I don't think it would be harsh to say a cultural desert. Unfortunately they couldn't come

because it was just when Julian Cope became really unwell. So they had to cancel. And there was much sadness. We had Katrina and the Waves the next year. Yes. No offence. But there we are. And actually, Bill Inhyton, who's a regular correspondent.

I hope you're well, Bill. He has sent us details of the album he's got. The songs Lennon and McCartney gave away. Which does include some of the tracks we played but also um some songs that honestly I have never never heard of I mean help me out with Tommy Quickly and Tip of My Tongue I don't want to that title I'm not surprised the Beatles gave it away. And no doubt Mr Gently did what we could with it. I'm sorry. No, you know what, Jane?

Don't, because people know. Oh, no, sorry, Tommy Quickly. I've called him Gently. Tommy Quickly. I don't want people typing that into their search engines because I don't want to be responsible for what's going to come up. I think I went out with Tommy Quickly. Anyway, right.

Yes, Bill, thank you very much indeed. Very childish writing. What was that? I don't know. They're terrible. Terrible. Oh, dear. You've lost all your lady likeness immediately.

Can I just sign off with this one from Clara? Because it's just a rather lovely story about changing times in the world of Cindy. Let's do that. As a child in the 1970s, I had a Cindy doll and a similar but smaller doll called Tammy. I never had a Barbie or an Action Man, which was what I really would have wanted. Listeners might remember that you could also buy accessories for Cindy, and I had Cindy's sofa. I think the TV commercials showed her living a life of luxury in her ultra-modern home,

wanting to simulate this but not having sufficient pocket money, 10p per week as I remember, I built her and Tammy a house out of cardboard boxes with Cindy's sofa taking pride of place. I remember proudly showing my construction to my grandmother and a friend of hers and explaining

that this was Cindy's house where she lived with her daughter Tammy. And wait for it, Cindy was an unmarried mother. Oh my goodness. I know. And as an eight-year-old, I don't think I really understood the implications of what it was to be an unmarried mother in 1974, but I'd heard my parents talking about the recent scandal of the then Miss United Kingdom winner, do you remember this? I do remember that. Who was forced to resign and give up her title

after the tabloids published negative headlines around her. I think my grandmother and her friend were just a little bit shocked about Cindy and Tammy's alternative lifestyle in their cardboard home with its luxury sofa. All the very best, says Clara, who's another listener not in the UK. She's listening to us from her home in Brittany so I mean that just tells you everything about what you do you know the imaginative world that you play with your dolls that references the world around you yes and that's a classic that really is Clara that's a that's one of

the Golden Greats thank you very much for that any more fanciful games you played with your dollies you You can let us know. I mean, keep it clean. Within reason. Yeah, well, within reason. I think you've got too hot today. Yes, but my mood's a bit brighter than yesterday when I was hot and cross.

Whereas today, we should say that I was very flustered by various references that Isabel Hartman made during her contribution today on the programme. Is she an assistant editor? The Spectator. She's always very good value, but she was just talking about

whether or not what it had been like, she wasn't there at the time, but what it had been like when Boris Johnson was the editor of The Spectator. And how is it she described him? Less present than most bosses. So you'd be amazed to hear that he wasn't the kind of guy who'd stay late and make sure everything was all right. Well, I was going to say, I mean, the inference is almost that he wasn't hands on. But the problem was he was handson and the sofa is still there. Good evening.

Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Phi Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank?

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