Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I'm full of good bacteria - with Angela Hartnett

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

Jane is ready to ramble as she's flying solo today. Michelin star chef Angela Hartnett stops by to talk about the latest series of her podcast 'Dish'.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Right. OK, Kate, prepared to start rambling. Hello and welcome to Off Air with me, Jane Garvey and Notfee Glover. She'll be back tomorrow. Everything crossed for that. Thank you very much for the emails that have come in to janeandfee at times.radio. And I'm aware, yeah, i do have self-awareness not enough but i do have some and i am conscious that um talking about my dreams is like the lowest common denominator level of conversation and it's sub-level podcasting content so i'm going to stop except to say um that i don't know for ever reason this stage in my life I'm finding I'm having the most exciting

and colourful nocturnal dreams, nocturnal events imaginable and I'm very grateful to Helen for sending a supportive email about my trampolining at the Ministry of Defence dream which I had earlier in the week or was it the end of last week no it must have been earlier this week um Helen said it actually did make her laugh after she'd returned to work three days after she'd been with her dad in his final hours she was also supporting her mother um so um Helen obviously you know you've been through a really difficult and immensely sad experience and lots of love to you um and to your mum and hope things are

you know just sort of well not going well because they're obviously not going to but I hope you're all coping and she says she listens to the podcast generally at the weekend while ironing and as a release from coping with a demanding job which is often six days a week I've got teenage sons, ageing relatives, the delights of the menopause, and just the general attempt at balancing life, which many women my age have got to deal with. Helen, best of luck to you with everything. Jane, make kefir at home.

It really is incredibly easy, cheaper, and you can get a starter kit online via Etsy. Helen, I'll read it out. I'll never do it in a month of Sundays. We did get quite a few emails about the subject of Tim Spector and his tips. And look, the guy is a top academic and expert. There's nothing about the microbiome that Tim Spector doesn't know.

But a couple of people did want to just acknowledge that there's quite a lot of graft involved in making your own kefir. And some of you cynically were wondering whether tim might have somebody at home to do it for him i can't imagine what makes you think that and i'm on now is it day six or seven of my kefir in the morning and i'm here to tell you that i haven't on the whole found that it's got easier uh but i'm moving on to cherry tomorrow so so i'll let you know but certainly i'm full of good bacteria. Pat says, like another listener who recently emailed in, I too am a nighttime listener.

And I often have to play the podcast again because there's something I've missed. Typically, it's a book title or the name of an author. My device, my iPhone, won't allow me to fast forward or backtrack. So I listen to the whole podcast. Is this standard or is it a problem confined to me and my device? Not that I mind listening again to the whole lot, asks Pat. Right. I'm going to just throw that over to young Kate, who's with me in the studio.

Might it be her problem or is that something that, what do you think? It sounds like it's an individual problem. An individual problem. I can't think of any reason why it would be. No, because phones these days do do that, don't they? got an iphone i would or he's got an iphone deleting the app and redownloading it okay that helps delete the app pat and redownload it i've tried that it's the 21st century equivalent of turning it off and then turning it on again and surprisingly it works a treat not always though in a good proportion of those events.

Right. Let us know how you get on with that, Pat. This is from another Covid sufferer. We did ask earlier in the week how you're getting on with Covid. Fee's just had it again. This is from Helen. Hope I've pronounced that right. I am lying here in bed in Melbourne recovering from my second dose of Covid. I agree with Fee completely. The combination of symptoms this time round, very different. I am lying here in bed in Melbourne, recovering from my second dose of COVID. I agree with V completely. The combination of symptoms this time round, very different from November 2021 for both my daughter, my husband and me. The headache is worse.

The sore throats are worse. There's new dizziness, less insomnia. Oh, that's a bonus anyway. Fewer aches, fewer fevers, but far greater brain fog. Or perhaps that's a bonus anyway fewer aches fewer fevers but far greater brain fog or perhaps that's just me she says um elaine it sounds horrible um whether it's just you or not and how horrible to have the whole family down with it at the same time although i suppose you could say at least you're getting it all over with so not such a bad thing anyway um i hope you feel better very soon um because it is particularly miserable um this is from sand I hope you feel better very soon because it is particularly miserable.

This is from Sandra. Hope you're both OK. Well, I'm fine. Feet's not too well today. Unlike Jane, I can't watch The iPlayer because I'm in France, but we can watch BBC TV. So we are enjoying blue lights on BBC One week by week. I've just watched episode four and I had to comment on the excellent Joanne Crawford who plays Helen McNally. I wasn't very keen on her or is it the other way around? I wasn't very keen on her in the first episode but she came into her own in episode four. It's brilliant TV and it's great to see women in such fantastic roles. I agree Sandra, I think that's why I'm enjoying it so much. I've just finished listening to The Curfew by T.M. Logan, beautifully read by Richard Armitage, hopefully with his clothes on, Jane. Please, please, can you list the books in your comments section so we don't have to scrabble for a pen and paper, says Sandra.

I'm just looking at Kate again. She's going to make a note of that. Well, I'm sure she will when she leaves the building or leaves the room. And we'll make sure that we do do that. Stick the titles of some of the books we wang on about in the comments section, because I appreciate it's quite frustrating if you can't get to them. Richard Armitage, the reason that Sandra made the reference to him being clothed, or hopefully clothed, is that he's largely naked in Obsession on Netflix, which, as I said earlier in the week, is absolutely disgusting, and I wouldn't want any of you to watch it. Now, because Fee was off today, I had James Marriott with me for the first hour, first half hour of the show.

And he went down very well with those of you who took the time to acknowledge his his presence. So I think he's going to be used again. Sylvia says James Marriott was just right as a sub. Rye humour, self-deprecating, very enjoyable. Use him again. OK, Sylvia, we'll alert James to that. And I agree with you. And he's very young.

He's about 30. He's a Times columnist of some renown, very clever bloke. And he was. Lovely company. So we'll bear that in mind and definitely think about having him with us again. And I've almost forgiven him for the fact that he gave our show a four-star review in his Times Radio column and as he said himself today, next time he reviews us there'll be very much a five-star review.

Won't it, James? Right, the big guest today, and this will give you a chance to just reacquaint yourself with Fi, who does the interview. Our big guest today was with Michelin-starred chef and restaurateur Angela Hartnett. I want to say restaurateur. I know that's wrong. She was trained by amazing people like Gordon Ramsay and Marcus Waring. She's now chef patron at Murano in Mayfair.

And she also has three little sister brasseries. They're all called Cafe Murano. She could be a dame quite soon. She's already got an OBE for services to the hospitality industry and to the NHS during the pandemic. She also co-hosts the podcast Dish, which she presents with TV and radio personality Nick Grimshaw. Now, the idea is that they invite celebrity guests to join their weekly dinner and it's on to its third series. Fee asked her about, let's get this right, particularly in Fee's absence. She'll enjoy it too much if I get it wrong.

Fee started off by asking her about Dish dish which has been a success right from the start it has yeah i mean it's myself and nick grimshaw um we do this podcast it's sponsored by waitrose and it's a really simple idea that it's basically like you're coming around to our house for a dinner party so i cook some food nick does some chatting make some drinks we all sit around the table and we have a great lovely hour together and then condense it down into a half hour podcast now you see you make it sound very simple but all of that Angela it could have gone disastrously wrong because I know because Jane and I spoke to Nick I think when he had just started doing it with you that actually

you and him it's not like you go back a long way it's not like your old showbiz pals so you've managed to get the chemistry right which is quite rare actually I think yeah I think so I mean we've um we we did this what they call not screen test or whatever it is a podcast test where I went to we went to meet for like a couple of hours and there was a bowl of questions and we sort of just had to ask a question. And we just got on very well straight away. And it was sort of immediate chemistry, I suppose. I'd met him previously a good four or five years before then, but we'd never really, you know, carried, not carried on the friendship, but just it was a very brief meeting.

And then I, in typical fashion, don't concentrate when i read emails and thought i was going on his podcast for an interview about something and it was only afterwards i read through it oh actually it's did you actually do a podcast okay right so um so it's worked out quite well and now we're very comfortable and you know it yeah you can hear it works on the radio and it's very natural i think both of us need to be in natural circumstances and with people we gel with rather than to make it false. Yeah, no, and it definitely does work. Cooking on the radio, though, and essentially, you know, podcast is the radio and new clothes, isn't it? It's incredibly hard to do because there isn't the sizzle. There isn't the wow of the visuals. You know, it's a very I think it's the hardest medium actually to make food work.

So how did you think your way around that? Well, we've got a great team, you know, the guys who produce it and manage it. You know, we try and do a bit, depending on the reaction with listeners, we're trying to do a bit more about the food, just really hitting on sort of recipes, you know, making sure there's tips about what I'm cooking that day, you know, anything that can help people when they're cooking at home and stuff. You know, all the recipes from Waitrose, you know, it's sort of their recipe base. And we just sometimes I tweak them. I might add my sort of own little idea to them.

And then, you know, you're right. You can't do the sizzle. But what we are doing more this time is to just we're going to take pictures of the food, because a lot of time we put the food down, eat it. We don't, you know, and it's just part of what we are doing more this time is to just we're going to take pictures of the food because a lot of the time we put the food down eat it we don't you know and it's just part of what we do so now we're going to really focus a bit more on that sort of side of it and i suppose the genius of it is if something went tragically wrong god forbid angela that would happen you actually yeah well the listener is just never going to know well it's like being at home i always say that to people i say when people come over dinner, no one knows if you've done something wrong because no one knows what they're having.

So it doesn't matter. So you can burn stuff. You just don't serve it, you know. And it's no different from being in a restaurant. You know, things go wrong. Things aren't right. You just make sure it just doesn't go to the customer. So, you know, it's the same thing.

Although I did one time, we had Yotam Otelenghi in the first series. And I had sort of my pine nuts are charred a little bit too much. He goes, oh, look, your pine nuts are a bit fat. Only Yotam would point that out. OK, well, we forgive you. Rob Delaney is the first guest in series three, isn't he? He's a really amazing man, isn't he?

Because he's so funny, he's so sharp, he's the writer behind amazing things like Catastrophe, but he has had this horrendous thing in his own life of his three-year-old son dying. And I was listening to you talking to him on the podcast and I think it's hard to comprehend just how remarkable it is that somebody can shift between the gears as a guest on a programme

to be funny, but also encompass that kind of grief. I suppose what I'm saying is, would you agree? Yeah, I think it is incredibly hard because obviously the podcast is quite lighthearted. But the idea is when you have guests on and they want to talk about things. And I think the incredible thing about Rob is he's so open about his grief. And actually, I think that's a healthy thing for anyone. You know, and the way he's written his book about his son and how his expression of love for Leah, his wife,

and he's got three other boys now, you know, and what everyone went through, you know. And even in the book, there's moments of hilarity when there's this American in the UK and how the difference of being an American and, you know, what happens in America, what happens in London, you know, that's all very funny. But then when he gets to the talk about the death of his son and the grief he's felt afterwards, you know, you're laughing one minute in enormous tears the next so it is hard to navigate and i felt but i think what made it easier is just the way rob is you know he naturally there's not

defensive about it he wants to talk about it and he's so open and honest about everything which and it's incredibly genuine i think that's the thing that comes across is he's doing it because he wanted to do it for himself not because he wanted to write a book necessarily but it's all about his genuine grief yeah one of the other things he said that i really had to think about and this is making a huge gear change so i hope you don't mind uh was whether or not i warm to adults who still like breakfast cereal yes he really likes his breakfast cereals doesn't he and i don't know angela i don't know well he's got cereal he's got certain things that are very seinfeld-esque you know about him and you know the whole series of seinfeld in the 80s

and 90s was all about well a lot of it was jerry eating cereals and now i think it's quite an american thing if i can be so blasé and sort of like it but i'm not a breakfast serious not not since i've grown up as an adult but you know I'm also not into the peanut butter like he is as well. So there's a few things we're very different about. And if you could have your absolute choice of a breakfast, and I think breakfast kind of defines a character more than any other meal, what would your breakfast be?

I think it's eggs. I think it's boiled eggs. I love eggs. I could forego bacon and all the rest of it, but I don't think I could give up eggs. So I like a boiled egg. OK. I don't know what that says about you. I don't know either. Four and a half minutes. And I think the thing is about eggs and breakfast, they're very particular for everyone.

You know, it's the one thing I don't like anyone doing for me. I'm more than happy to do my own boiled eggs, my own scrambled eggs. I don't want anyone else to.. I'm more than happy to do my own boiled eggs, my own scrambled eggs. I don't want anyone else to. And I think everyone has those things. People like their fried eggs a certain way. People like scrambled eggs. It really, I think it's a very, you know, any restaurant that can do breakfast for people is a minor miracle as far as I'm concerned. I know that you've spoken a lot in the past about how hugely influenced you are by your Italian roots.

And I wonder whether you could just tell us a bit more about that, about where your family are originally from and how that's shaped your kitchen. So my family originally from the region Emilia Romagna, which is sort of the centre of Italy, Bologna, Parma, all that area. So very sort of pork, parmesan, you know, a lot of the great things that come out of Italy come from that region. They were post-First World War immigrants, so they came over to the UK after the First World War and ended up in Wales. And it was very much, you know,

Italy was decimated after the First World War, so you had, you know, villages literally leave. You know, a lot went to Glasgow, a lot came to London, a lot went to Wales. And I think it's no different from an immigrant story these days that one member of a family comes and then their brother comes, who brings his wife, who then brings her brother, who brings the cousin, and suddenly you've got pockets of families and, you know,

from all one village, all one community. And that very much was it, you know. And ironically, there's a friend of mine called welsh john who's moving back to wales today as we speak um who's going back to wales to swansea to open up and he was chatting with my mum who grew up in wales from italian parents and we were talking about frothy coffee you know the fact that you'd go to these italian cafes even though they were doing the bacon and eggs and all the rest of it they made it was very exciting in the 50s and 60s to have this frothy coffee that that's what you know they

did it was before cappuccino machines and all the rest of it came to town so and that and then and even if you go back to italy now you've especially the area where we the little village you know you very much have that welsh italian community you know you'll hear welsh accents through the summer and there's a lot of the Welsh that have moved back to Italy, you know, grandparents, you know, in their generation. And my mother still has a massive, you know, fondness for Wales, even though she doesn't live there anymore. And I think, you know, it's home from home. It's where they brought their kids up. So that's the connection. So you're so right that food tells the story of migration

incredibly well, doesn't it and i wonder whether you think that's uh you know we might have missed a bit of a trick in this country about making that connection because we love our food but we love our food from all around the world yeah but i think at the moment you could definitely say that there is a vein running through our country that is unwelcoming to new arrivals. Yeah, I think it's well, I mean, it's shocking how what's happening at the moment with this migration policy of this current government. But and that's the one thing you sort of think, I think we're built, we are a country of migrants. You know, we are, you know, there's not like we're all going back to Anglo-Saxon times

where we've all got a heritage. You know, you talk to anyone and there'll be some Celtic, Norwegian, you know, Irish, Italian, French. Everyone's got to come from somewhere. So, you know, over in the Caribbean, the India, you know, we are. So we should embrace that, I think, as part of what our huge culture is about. And I think that's what makes, you know, us brilliant. That's why I love living in London, a metropolis that embraces all those sort of cultures that have brought, you know, come over.

A reminder that our guest is Michelin-starred chef Angela Hartnett. Now, throughout her career, she's worked with a great range of top chefs, but they're mainly men and quite a few of them are linked, shall we say, to testosterone and to lots of shouting and displays of temperament. Thea asked Angela if that way of working was of its time, or should we expect it to continue in the kitchen of the 21st century? And was it ever a good thing? I mean, I don't think it was ever a good thing.

I think even, you know, well, not even. I know Gordon know Gordon, people have moved on from all of that, you know. I think there's still people that probably do do that sort of, you know, and I don't think it's necessarily just in cooking. I think I'm sure in journalism, there's been that sort of thing in TV and radio. There's been people berated for no apparent reason and just And I'm sure there are places it still goes on. For me personally, I think it's just let's move on with the times. No one wants to be that person screaming and shouting. No one wants to be at the end of receiving that sort of thing. And I think there's better ways to train a team and drive them.

And, you know, I'll give Gordon his due. You know, there's a lot of things with the TV and everything, and people think that's a permanent thing. But, you know, when we were at the Aubergine back in the due. You know, there's a lot of thing with the TV and everything, and people think that's a permanent thing. But, you know, when we were at the aubergine back in the day, you know, yes, there was shouting and all the rest of it, but people never saw afterwards the drag, not drag you into the office, but, you know, come on, there was no office. It was just this cubbyhole, you know, go and have a chat.

What went wrong? Why it went wrong? Explaining and sort of making sure when you left, you know, you were lifted up again sort of thing, which is, I suppose, that sort of mentality, bash down, bring them back up. But I'd like to think that as an industry, we've moved forward, you know, with bigger and huge array of restaurants these days. You know, it's not all about, you know, white tablecloths and fancy dining rooms. You know, you can go and have a great meal and sit, you know know outside on the canal and still have some of the best food in London so I think people have realized it's you know you just it's it's not difficult to get people to work for you just

treat them properly and given the you know crisis of it all it makes sense to do that. Sure but I suppose when you were a younger woman was was there a bit of you that thought, gosh, I'm going to have to be this kind of, you know, king of the tantrum, queen of the tantrum in order to get on? Because we're quite often, you know, we are led by example. I think, yeah, but I don't think I've ever consciously thought, oh, God, that's the way I need to behave. I think sometimes you do lose your rag, you know know because you're annoyed or something's wound you up I think the one the thing that really changed it for me was um Richard Corrigan actually you know great Irish chef who's got four three or four restaurants in London and I remember moaning one time that someone had walked out and they hadn't really called and blah blah blah blah blah and he said are you under their

skin do you know them you know and it always made me and i said what do you mean he goes would you know where they live do you know what their circumstances are do you know everything about them and actually when i thought about it gordon did about us he'd always investigate how far we traveling did we have to get home late you know how are we getting home blah blah got to know us so you sort of under their skin to understand you you know, why this guy, was he traveling two hours to get to work? Had he just missed his train or something? And yeah, and I think once you, and that again, it's not rocket science, but when you're in the thick of it all, you don't sort of take the time. And then, and that was years ago.

I thought, and that's why up until probably three or four years ago, I would do the rotas for all the restaurants which is a mad thing when you're sort of the owner but the reason I did it is because then they would have to come and sort of I'd have to have conversations and talk to people so you're off on holiday why do you want that day of what's and not to be nosy but just so you're in their lives and there's a connection and it's you know and again it's that simple thing looking after your team you're only as good as the people you look after and connecting with yeah I'm sure that you're well on your way to becoming a dame you can't be surprised uh you've got an ob and an mbe is that right so yeah yeah yeah okay so you're lining them all up so one day you're going to be completely in charge, Angela.

And what would you do if you were in charge? So if you could wave a magic wand as the all powerful Dame Angela. Oh God, the two things for me that would, I'd love to, the NHS. I don't know what the fix is. I'd love to know there is one, but I think that's one of the most important things in our country. And I'd hate to think that would ever be privatised. So having a collective of people to fix the NHS, I would love to do. And I think sort of, I suppose, naturally food culture.

You know, I do think it's, you know, we're still quite, we're not quite there like Europe, that I think good food is still very expensive in this country for a lot of people and i think we have to fix how everyone can afford a decent chicken rather than you know you know or you know cheap ready meals you know which you know are not necessarily nutritional because they're full of salt and sugar and all the rest of it um so i think those two things i think i'd like to sort of work on and sort out transport in london because that does your head in trying to get to work but anyway apart from okay so you won't be busy at all you'll have plenty of time when you sit on

the committee fee come on fix the nhs yes i'd love to i tell you what i'm quite interested by that gap actually between food at the very high end yeah uh which is actually quite bad for you isn't it if you ate in Michelin starred restaurants every day it's high salt a lot of butter not everywhere not everywhere and I think people's diets have changed now I think I certainly know from my cooking over the last 20 30 years that it was you're right I think back then butter butter butter and now it's a lot more olive oil more vegetable much lightness less salt because actually people have got changed that more vegetarian more veganism and i think everyone's diets have changed so you cater to that you know you've got to move with your customers

okay but right down at the bottom as you've already alluded to and i mean that in terms of price yeah you know we are still stuck with a very very bad diet yeah and i wonder whether you think actually and this is the point that henry dimbleby's making at the moment isn't it that that you just need now some kind of government intervention don't call it the nanny state call it something else but something that actually stops this path towards really really unhealthy lifestyles from developing because there isn't anything that we've done before that's worked no and there's got to be something because the irony of linking the two together if you think about all the heart issues and everything that's going on in the nhs and partly is poor diet you

know bad food eating you know and it's not i've never been an advocate of saying you can't eat anything you need what the hell you want but just everything i think is in moderation and it's just making sure and i think the worst thing is we haven't taught people how to cook i know that really is feeling like it's nanny stating going back but if people can cook they can budget a meal and i think that's the biggest thing when i've we've done stuff like that and when you talk to people and you know you've watched shows whatever and i think it is if you know people understand how to go shop with 30 quid and be able to do three or four meals out of that

and understand that. And also it's quick cooking. We're not, again, it's time poor, aren't we? People don't have hours to stand behind a stove when they're coming in from work and they've got two kids to put together. So everyone's circumstances have to be allowed for, if you like. Final question. What are you having for tea tonight oh crikey what am i having for tea it's going to be something at morano i've got to be on i'm doing service tonight morano so it would

be whatever m and henry cook up for staff tea i'll have to wait and see actually it'd be a surprise okay do you get to choose from your own menu? No, we don't do that, because that would be a real pain in the neck for the kitchen. No, what we do is they do, like the other night, Henry made a really lovely old-school stroganoff, which we haven't had in years, with rice, you know. So it's sort of dishes like that, or they might make a lasagne one night, and then, you know, so it's stuff like that we do for Star Food.

That is the brilliant chef and all-round very decent human being angela hartnett you can keep your emails coming to jane and fee at times.radio uh this is from jilly who says i wanted to thank jane for her recent book recommendation at the table by claire powell i caught covid during the last week of the school term before easter and felt pretty poorly for a good week. We then headed down to our house in southwest France. Oh, how lovely, with our two youngest children, age 14 and 15. My hope was to relax, recover and read, but I just couldn't settle to read it at all. I then remembered Jane's recommendation

and downloaded the book on Audible, and it was brilliant. I understand Jane's reluctance to finish it, and I too was sad when it came to an end. Thank you for the great recommendation, and keep them coming. Okay, I've got a couple, well actually one of you recommended that we interview Lucy Easthope, the disaster expert. I know that she has written a really interesting book, which I've read. She's also a really, really nice woman. I met her at a literary festival about a year or so ago, and she was fabulous.

So I think we will try and interview Lucy Easthope. She's definitely on my list. And the book I'm still finishing. Oh, yeah, sorry, that person was Helen. Helen, thank you for that suggestion. We'll follow up on that. The book I'm currently reading, and it's kind of both bleakly comic and truly terrifying, is called Attack Warning Red. And it's by a woman called julie mcdowell and it's about how britain prepared or attempted to prepare for the nuke well the what was thought to be the imminent nuclear war that was heading our way in the 1980s and um i do mean it when i say the book is bleakly comic there are some truly in retrospect hysterical bits of content about advice that would be given by the government to Britain at that time of emergency it also though

literally chills the blood and makes well it makes me want to revisit my 1980s diaries because it is weird to me and it's been something I'm sure i've mentioned before that back then we were keenly aware of the possibility of nuclear war and we don't seem to be as aware anymore julie mcdowell is a woman she also has a great podcast called atomic hobo um she's a woman who is keenly aware of the possibility of it and wants very clearly to warn us all that we must do everything in our power such as it is to ever stop it happening uh anyway she's someone i'd love to interview um we are trying to get hold of her julie can you answer the emails please uh because we'd love to have you on the i mean i've read the book well three quarters of it anyway so listen i'm reaching out to you if you know her if she's

your neighbor can you go and knock on her door now and say they are they're serious these women they want to get hold of you um atomic hobo is the name of her podcast if she's your neighbour, can you go and knock on her door now and say they're serious, these women. They want to get hold of you. Atomic Hobo is the name of her podcast. And she was someone who, at far too young an age, saw that seminal and utterly terrifying BBC film called Threads. And if you've seen it, you'll know exactly what I mean. Anyway, we must cheer ourselves up. And let's move away from the not necessarily approaching apocalypse and talk about Lorraine Kelly, who is always very cheerful and she's with us as our big guest tomorrow afternoon.

She is the face of the No Buts campaign, which is aiming to raise awareness of bowel cancer. It's really important and she's basically following up on the work of the brilliant Dame Deborah James. So there's lots in that interview with Lorraine. We don't just talk about that, although that is part of the focus of the early part of the interview, because it is so, so important. We'll be back tomorrow. Have a very good evening. Thank you for listening. It's Jane and Fee

at times.radio. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to thursday three till five you can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on off air very soon don't be so silly running a bank i know lady lady listener sorry