Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I'm just going to lower the tone enormously

Episode Date: March 28, 2024

It's your last dose of Jane² this week. Today they're doing apologies as well as correcting the record on microwave baked potatoes...The Reverend Kate Bottley is our guest today, talking about her book 'Have a Little Faith'. Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Megan McElroyTimes Radio Producer: Evelyn Salusbury Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Yeah, I think it's brilliant to enjoy somebody who perhaps may have done you down over the years to watch them falling arse over tit. Yeah. And if you can't enjoy it and if your mates can't support you in enjoying it, get new mates. Or ring me and Jane. Or ring the Janes. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings.

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Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Welcome to Off Air on what is, in the real world, Maundy Thursday. It's a drizzly old London Thursday, isn't it? Very Maundy-ish. It's actually very, very true. Malcarins and Garvey for one more time. Next week, you're with La Glover. Yeah, I'm going to pretend to be you next week. I know.

Which of the two of us do you think you're most like? Oh, what's the right answer? I'll leave that one with you. So, Fee is back next week, and I'm sure she'll be absolutely bursting to go. We were just talking off-air, before the microphones went on about the terrible moments in our lives but also rather beautiful moments in our lives when we get

support uh you know schadenfreude yeah well in schadenfreude because let's be honest sometimes uh we delight in the success of others and at other times it's just really annoying. Really annoying. Yeah, sometimes we delight in their failure. And it's very unbecoming. I know it's very unbecoming. But just sometimes it's lovely just to have the complete unilateral support of your friends when you're watching someone just fall flat on their face. Has this happened to you lately um possibly possibly quite recently um and it's it's not a trait i like myself and

actually i don't generally feel shod shod and freudistic i've just invented shod and freudistic tendencies yeah i generally don't but but this past week, I've very much enjoyed watching somebody fail. Well, I think, Jane, you're extremely honest. It's one of many things I like about you. I mean it because there are lots of us who would like to be nicer than we actually are. Are you saying I don't even pretend to be nicer than i am to be fair to me i'm gonna be fair to myself i think i'm quite honest about what i think and feel most of the time and yeah i think it's i think it's brilliant to enjoy somebody who perhaps may have done you down over the years to watch them falling ass over tit yeah it's just and if you can't enjoy it and if your mates can't support

you in enjoying it get new mates or ring me in jane or and if your mates can't support you in enjoying it, get new mates. Or ring me in Jane. Or ring the Janes. We will support you in your round. I should say, this is Maundy Thursday and you are going to hear a guest in our fair today who I think is really suitable for this time of year. It's the Reverend Kate Botley. She's one of those vicars that even those of us who are not religious can bear.

And I don't mean that in any way rudely, I hope, or disparaging of people who find huge comfort in religion. And actually, I know a lot of people who are made better by their faith. You know, they are fundamentally decent people who do a bit for society because of their connection with churches and things. And actually, in the interview, Kate says that if you want to go to church

because you just want to be part of a community and you're not actually certain you believe, just do it. Absolutely. And I really, I like that idea. I still don't go. No. But I like the idea. I mean, I did go for quite a number of years.

Well, yeah. I went to Catholic school. And my family would always go to church. And my grandmothers went every day, sometimes twice a day. Every day? Every day, yeah. Were they in Ireland or here? First in Ireland and then here, so yeah.

Very connected, did lots of things for the nuns. I mainly used to go for the singing. Really enjoy a bit of singing. But not enough to go anymore. It's quite a schedule going once a day or twice a day, isn't it? What else do you fit in? I suppose there's time for... Ten children on one of my grandmother's side. Ten children. Yeah. And a lot of praying. Right. OK. Busy, those Irish grandmothers. Yeah, absolutely.

Christine has news about cling film. The good news is, shortly before she died in 1989, my mother bought me 200 metres of Lakeland cling film with a dispenser. That is a very proud boast. I'm not a frequent user, but this very day, she says, I finished the role. The bad news is she also bought me a refill and I'm now 77.

I've been listening to your advice about making a will. I was wondering if I should include the cling film refill for my niece. What do you think? I think the answer is in the affirmative. Do include it, Christine. I wonder if you can have one of those you know automatic reorders for the cling film um i think i've been i think i've been relatively clean this week so i'm just going to lower the tone enormously well just before we finish in the time left in time left so my only anecdote my only personal anecdote about cling film

is um oh god you know they're not the same as condoms, bits of cling film. No, but because I am a front-line journalist and, you know, with a very, very serious job, I went to sex camp in Australia some years ago. OK, what is a sex camp? Well, its official title was Celebrating Sexuality and it was held on a Girl Guide campground in the bush. I mean, it sort of writes itself, doesn't it?

So I was on my way back from my cousin's wedding in New Zealand. I don't doubt that you still had to write it. I still had to write it. I was on my way back from my cousin's wedding in New Zealand and heard about sex camp and obviously thought, that's something I should go to and write about. And there were all sorts of classes, you know, sort of spanking workshops and um

uh japanese rope tying um all sorts of other ones that i mean can we say anything off there i don't know i mean i'm not gonna say all of the names of the classes um because some of them are very rude but um but how rude very rude explicitly um did the Guides know this was happening by the way? I don't know I didn't see any Girl Guides It was all above board and adult, very adult in some ways

and they kept saying it's not a big orgy it's not a big orgy and then of course on the last night there was a big orgy and in one corner where there was a lot of the orgy happening um people were wrapping each other in cling film quite a lot and um yeah so maybe that's where the girl guide comes in can i just say i don't think they want to be associated with this in any way there's an awful lot of cling film going on in the orgy. That anecdote was not what Christine expected when

she emailed this podcast in good faith asking my advice on whether or not she should leave her Lakeland cling film refill to her niece in her will. And to get back to the point of your email Christine, the answer is I think you should. Because you're clearly not using cling film at a great rate.

So at the age of 77 you could have another 25 years ahead of you. It's true. You may finish it, but I'm thinking you probably won't anyway. Unless you start wrapping other people in it. Right. Just a suggestion.

Well, that's Mark Heron suggesting that. Can I rescue this by talking about baked potatoes? Please do. Yes, quite. God, moving seamlessly onto the subject of baked spuds so maria has written in saying you keep saying how long baked potatoes take and how useless they are in a microwave but maria begs to differ here's what to do she says yeah microwave the potato for about five minutes prick to make sure the center is soft put the potato in a cereal

sized bowl drizzle olive oil over the potato and swish it around then sprinkle it with salt and pepper put it in a hot oven for 10 to 15 minutes um maria says sorry this is such a boring email but i hope it opens a quick easy sub for you it could not be more boring i'm i'm into this idea i've never really thought about putting olive oil over a potato and then putting it in the oven no i haven't i't. I'm taking that one, Maria. I mean, it's sort of, it seems like a cross between a baked potato and a roast potato to me. Yes. Which I'm definitely up for.

You know, we were talking about Spudgy Light, weren't we? We were. That was what inspired this. And by the way, Maria, never apologise for, you know, that is far from a boring email and we're very grateful to you for it. And I'm going to try it. I'm going to put that to one side. I'm going to take the advice home.

Spud, do you like? I don't have a microwave though. Oh, don't you? No. I have. Or a toaster. I've got a microwave. In fact, my parents arrived yesterday and my dad yet again complained about my lack of toaster. Why haven't you got one? Because I just don't toast things very much. I've got a grill

and a very small kitchen. I also don't have a colander, as it was pointed out to me last night. There's many things I don't have in my kitchen. I don't know. How have you got through life without a colander? I don't know. Do you not drain anything? Yeah, but with a pan lid.

With a pan lid? Yeah, if it's in a pan, just drain it with a pan lid. Oh, you have to be quite dexterous for that. Yeah. Anyway, I think I'll probably have a colander by the end of the weekend. I'm feeling that you will. And I worry that, I mean, I'll try and get you one if you can't get one at the weekend. Because I don't like the idea of you draining things with a pan lid.

It's also quite dangerous. You might burn yourself. I don't do that much cooking. I think that's what I'm going to be really honest about here. In my new radical honesty, I don't do that much cooking. I think that's what I'm going to be really honest about here. In my new radical honesty, I don't do a lot of cooking. No, because you're having a good time too much of the time. Cam says, Spudgy-like. I remember a funny cartoon showing a Spudgy-like shop

with an overflowing bin outside and the overflowing bin was labelled Spudgy-didn't-like. Thank you for that. So loads of people are going to be having a baked potato for their tea tonight absolutely of this content um so this email is to hygiene and fee and substitute services jane thank you very much she's so much more than that i don't know all right um you've been talking recently about gentlemen's clubs says ema our lovely listener and the freemasons and whether anything similar exists for women coincidentally says ema i've just heard of a court case held last week in australia

in which a women's only space became the focus of a discrimination case this is really interesting actually um artist kiesha kachela i may have mangled that sorry the wife of the uh owner of the museum of old and new art in hobart tasmania um developed an art installation at the museum which is billed as a tremendously lavish space where women can indulge in decadent nibbles fancy tipples and other ladylike pleasures sounds sounds like the place for us only those who identify as women can enter the space, except for the male butlers who serve the women. This is getting better and better. When a Mr. Jason Lau visited the gallery, he was denied entry and he complained to Tasmania's

Equal Opportunity Commissioner. At the hearing last week, Kachela stated, I think the rejection of men is a very important part of the artwork. and she says she's delighted this issue was brought to the court as it brings the art to life um so we've also been sent an article here which explains it um and our listener says the theatrics of the case are fabulous in the hearing kachela was flanked by 25 female supporters all wearing navy suits red lipstick and glasses and they left the courtroom dancing out to simply irresistible so i'm going to check out that YouTube clip that she sent us. But I do love this little court sketch of them all. What was the upshot of the court case, that they could go on operating as they were?

I don't know what the upshot is. Because I rather like the idea that the fact that men were rejected... Is part of the artwork. Is part of the artwork. Yeah. Would that be enough to help the Garrett Club survive in its current form? They pretend to be an art installation.

An art installation. Old duffers. I was saying the other day that I used to reject the advances of other children who wanted me to play out. And I've got a friend, Vicky says, as a child, I was sent to boarding school and therefore had few or no friends locally at home. On one occasion, though, a kindly neighbour

must have persuaded her children to pop round and invite me to play out with them. I called downstairs telling my mum to let them know, no thanks, I'm writing a book, I'm reading a book. Writing a book? No thanks, I'm reading a book. How to make friends and influence people, says Vicky. In the 70s, we didn't yet have a spectrum to be on, nor realise the amount of psychological damage caused

by sending children away to school. At a later date, I did deign to join the neighbours' children for a game of cowboys and Indians, which was also perfectly acceptable at that time. I was captured, tied to a rotary dryer, and left in the garden while they went in for tea. Probably my own fault for being such a dick. In my defence, I knew no better and I still enjoy reading books.

Vicky, you keep on reading. You sound like our kind of girl, Vicky. Yeah, don't worry about it. Just on the boarding school front, did you hear Nicky Campbell on the radio this morning? I have heard, I haven't heard him today talking about it It's incredibly moving I think

I heard him yesterday talking about it actually and he said something I thought was really powerful and it really made me think and he just said when you abuse small children, I think he actually said because of his case, when you abuse small boys do

remember they grow up and um and they will want to well actually they are now able to talk about their suffering and what happened but you do fear for those many many generations who i'm sure were abused and weren't able to talk about it uh so i just hope i mean i really do hope that there's some closure i don't really like the term but there's some some piece exactly some sort of mental peace in knowing that you have been believed yeah and i think justice probably still going to elude them what because the the man who they have accused well the main abuser is dead yeah exactly um so i i don't know if you can have real closure when you can you can never have you can never be heard by them yeah um but maybe maybe as you say being believed in a wider

forum it's probably not enough but it's better than nothing. But I mean, I haven't had that experience, thank God, so I don't feel I can speak for them. But I hugely admire all of them. I mean, I know Nicky's been very prominent, but lots of other men have spoken up, spoken out, and just let their pain get out there and made the rest of us aware of of what went on absolutely and um thank thank goodness they found they found the strength to do it and support for

one another to do it yeah um i have an apology to make good um this is very specific apology about our conversation about America and Americans yesterday or the day before, sometime earlier this week, in which I think our listener is probably correct that we were flagrantly criticising other countries. Speaking in generalities. But encouraged by you, Jane Garvey. You set me up.

Of course. Sorry. I've got form there. You threw me under the bus, Garvey. I don't mean to do it. I might just withhold my services, my substitute services. Don't do that.

You can talk on your own. I wouldn't do that. But I wouldn't mind talking on my own. It's quite annoying, isn't it? I could get together with Vicky who doesn't want to play out and the two of us could just sit here in silence, be perfectly companionable,

just read. Reading books, yeah. So our listener says, when you speak about people from other countries, you speak in generalities and highlight the most banal of stereotypes. While stereotypes have some truth to them, let's be clear,

not every American overshares, totes guns, likes Trump and or thinks healthcare and other social welfare programmes are complete rubbish. And I do absolutely agree with you, Sonali's that is an unfair stereotype uh she says making cheap shots only shows a lack of imagination uh yes and i do apologize if that is the way we came across that certainly wasn't my intention and um i'm gonna say some of my best friends are american

and it sounds trite but it's true um she also says if you want americans to have a global mindset which we should start with using your immensely privileged forum to talk about the ways, talk about our commonalities rather than our differences. Sure, it might be funny to talk about all the ways that Americans are strange or quirky, but couldn't that be said for any culture? Maybe consider flipping what you're doing. If I, as an American, made the same statements you make about the US, but instead about england how would you feel would you think it was rude or perhaps short-sighted and ignorant if so then consider whether your comments should be revised i know that taking the piss out of sensitive

americans is fun but it doesn't build community or a global mindset quite right um i would just like to say uh i did have quite a lot of people taking the piss out of me being British. What did they say, Jane? Oh, just, you know, emotionally constipated, that kind of thing. Drinks a lot of tea. Those sort of things, yeah. But you had your Irishness to fall back on, didn't that protect you? Do you know what? I never really played that card very hard.

But I will say that as a British person in America, you are far more privileged than you than you are than you are sort of held back by it because um americans are generally incredibly um positive and warm towards brits um again this is a good generalization but i would meet a lot of people who would sort of automatically assume that you know you're quite well-bred and well-educated just because of your accent. Little did they know. Yeah. No, Jane, you're doing yourself down.

I thought I had to say that. I'm educated, let's just say that. I'm going to do a quick apology. Gosh, it is Maundy Thursday, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yes, absolutely. In the conversations which have come out of your interview with Geoff Norcott, the comedian who made that documentary about whether or not it was worth going to uni, the subject of contact time on humanities degrees

kept on coming up, and I'm getting increasingly frustrated with the humanities students only get nine hours a week teaching rhetoric. Fees have inevitably instrumentalised students and encouraged them to think in terms of pounds per seminar. Not, I would add, that this results in higher attendance. In fact, quite the opposite. But the lectures and seminars are not supposed to be the sum total of all the time. The thinking, the research and the engagement that staff and students put in. On a literature degree, what would you have us do?

Read seven novels a week and have seminars for all of them? When would the students actually read the book, digest it, research the critical discussions it's generated? Or should we sit and read the book together, going round the class reading aloud a paragraph each, like we did at school? OK, I've been told there, and you make very good points i don't need to mention the uh correspondent's name but uh i absolutely get it and i can't i think actually you're right there probably was a time during the course of my english degree that i was meant to read up to

seven novels a week or at least three or four i don't think i ever managed it and i actually found that was one of the aspects of doing an English degree I found so hard. Because, I mean, I read for pleasure and reading because you have to still is something I find tough. That's a lot of books to get through in a week, isn't it? Yeah. I studied social and political sciences and we also had a lot of books to read.

I mean, you sometimes have to tear through about eight books in a week and then write an essay about it and then have a supervision about it. I honestly don't know how I did it now looking back my brain has definitely turned to some level of sort of putrefaction since my degree um but it's a lot of reading and I don't know how you can actually really um analyze it properly at that pace you can can't. No. Unless you're right and our brains in our late teens and early twenties are just working at an accelerated rate of verging on pure brilliance.

Verging on pure brilliance fuelled by really cheap white wine. Well, cherry brandy. Ooh. That was my typical. Cherry brandy. I used to pop down to the bar. By the pint. Popped down to the bar in the Hall of Residence and then, you had a pint of cherry brandy? No, I was my typical. Cherry brandy. I used to pop down to the bar. By the pint. Pop down to the bar in the Hall of Residence,

and then, you had a pint of cherry brandy? No, I was asking you. Oh, no, I just have a cup, no, just a shot of cherry brandy. A shot of cherry brandy. I think it cost 50p from memory, and then I'd go up to the room, and then I'd put something together. Wow.

Bear in mind, I'm only five foot one, so that one shot of cherry brandy could have an astonishing impact. Keep going for a while. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel like you did work hard? No. Really? And I put it this way, I richly deserved my tutu. And actually, I mean, I was lucky to get it.

Wow. Not that there's anything wrong with getting a third-class degree. A gentleman's degree. Yes, very much so. It'll probably get you into the Garrick. Oh, I i too could wear that what's the color of the tie they wear it's really weird isn't it it's an extremely unattractive i've got no i think it's from memory i've never been but i think it's salmon pink and green oh good lord properly weird jane properly weird yeah um as it is the easter weekend almost is upon us we have an email

here from mary uh who says dear jane and feet many australians celebrate the easter bilby who is an endangered marsupial with an ant and insect diet rather than the easter bunny because rabbits are an environmental nightmare in australia because of course they mix mitosis in it um so she's painted as a little easter card that celebrates the canny use of easter eggs mitosis in it. So she's painted as a little Easter card that celebrates the canny use of Easter eggs to lure ants. It's a lovely little Easter card of the Bilbies. Thank you very much, Mary. Yeah, thanks, Mary.

And have a very happy Down Under Easter, where I imagine it'll be autumn, won't it? Yeah, it'll be autumn. Actually, it continues to blow my mind that other parts of the world have different seasons. Today in the UK, one, I have to say, relatively obscure branch of the NHS has issued a warning suggesting that people shouldn't eat an entire Easter egg

in one sitting, which has led to the typical, the reaction that was absolutely inevitable. It's a nanny state, Charlie. As many big eggs as I want, said the, you know, inevitable voices who always speak out against this kind of thing. I've had a very busy morning. I only read the headline. Yeah.

But I was wondering, was it from a calorific point of view or a safety point of view? Were they saying, don't try to open your gullet and force down, you know, that enormous egg. Choking hazard. Choking hazard. Also, risk of diabetes. All the usual things.

So I think... I reckon you could get a cream egg down in one. Do you know what? I really don't like cream eggs. They are overrated, aren't they? They are so sweet. And they're just... No, I mean, go for something more sophisticated.

A lint egg? A nice lint egg. Nice lint egg. Or an hotel chocolate. So yesterday, it was the joint birthdays of the esteemed Tony Turnbull, food editor of The Times, and his deputy, Hannah Evans. Well, his is today, but they are born within moments

and 30 years of one another. Of each other, yeah. And Marks and Spencer, I'm giving Marks and Spencer a big old shout out here because you know I love them. They sent a giant Colin the Caterpillar cake to the office. I tell you what, there's no flies on them. Enormous.

How on earth did they think that was a good idea? Well, it was a very good idea. Of course it was. The office was very happy. Yeah, I agree. Giant Colin. I mean, it was huge. It was the size of,

I'm trying to think what's like a caterpillar, but bigger. It was like a lizard. A burr constrictor? Yeah, with legs. It's funny that white suspensors don't do a gorgeous, high-calorie burr constrictor. But maybe they'll think about it.

Sally the snake, coming soon. This is a golden age at M&S. I mean, I've been a loyal customer for many years, but really, they can't do wrong at the moment for me. No, it's great. Yeah. You're just looking for a cake, aren't you? Just angling for a giant conan. The address is. Of course not. I'm so much better than that.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhonehone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone. A star of Gogglebox and Strictly, she now makes regular appearances on Steph's Pack Lunch and Songs of Praise. Her first book, Have a Little Faith, is full of good advice for life, even if you are a raving agnostic. We started our conversation with Easter. So come on, Kate, can you explain it all to us? Well, not really, I don't think, because, you know, it's all a bit sort of upside down and back to front, isn't it? I mean, for a start, we call it Good Friday and it's the day he died, for goodness sake.

So it's already on a back foot. But I guess, you know, as all sort of good Christian festivals, it's an amalgamation of all kinds of past religions and beliefs and a lovely sort of selection box of different things in there but what I really like about Easter in contrast perhaps to something like Christmas for example is that it doesn't seem to have kind of got the momentum of commercialism in quite the same way um so that means that we don't have to buy into the chaos and the and the pressure of it which I really enjoy um and I think that if you approach Easter as a non-religious person, if that's as much as you get from it is, well,

look, it's chocolate eggs and perhaps a nice lunch, you know, without any of the sort of stress that other, other festivals might bring with it. And I think that might be good enough, but for me, I like the most important service for me this weekend is the one that goes from the darkness of Good Friday.

So on Good Friday, I will be spending what's called the hour at the cross. And I will sit in church and I will watch people take away all the statues, cover up all the crosses, take away all the trappings and the trimmings and the flowers. And the church will be empty, will be devoid of any of the sort of glitz and glamour and then on easter sunday morning a single candle will be carried at the sunrise service while it's still dark a single candle will be carried into a very dark church and then all of a sudden all the candles will be lit it will be the light will be passed around the statues will be unveiled the flowers will be lit. The light will be passed around. The statues will be unveiled. The flowers will be there. And we'll go from a real sense of paring back to a sense of kind of, you know, all glitz and glamour for the resurrection. And I think there's something really there for us to take away and learn about. The feast is always better after the fast.

That sounds so beautiful and i it's gorgeous yeah i didn't know there was a a sunrise service on easter day has there always been there's fires you know there's a there's a there'll be a big bonfire lit and um it's also an opportunity for those of us who baptize you with christened as babies to renew our baptism vows for the for the coming year which is always really powerful so easter is um it's renewal, it's rebirth, and it's a triumph over death. Yeah. Is it that simple? Yeah, I think it probably is that simple.

I mean, for me as a person of faith who hopes for something after this world, but doesn't live always anticipating it, you know, I think that sometimes as people of faith, we have this idea that, oh, it'll all be better once we're dead. Well well I'd quite like it to be better while I'm alive please thank you very much um so you know I don't sort of live my life eagerly waiting for my own death but as someone who's recently been through a massive bereavement with my mum um you know it brings extra poignancy uh last year last year everybody sort of gathers around those people who are grieving at Easter and sort of cuddles them and softens it all.

But this year, people have stopped saying, I'm sorry, your mum's dead. So it feels even, I always think the second year of grieving is even harder than the first. Yeah, that's something that people need to bear in mind, isn't it? That it hasn't, the pain and the grief has not gone 12 months on. It's just not like that. And neither should it

neither should it you know i mean i think someone once said that um grief stays the same size but other stuff gets bigger around it and one of the chapters i'm most proud of in the book is the chapter on death the one that i've got the most kind of conversation out of and the most feedback from is where people have just wanted to talk about their own experience which is not a new experience for me i only need to walk into a pub and people go, can I tell you about my dead mother? And I go, yes, of course you can. It's a very normal conversation for me,

but I know for lots of people it isn't. But of course, Easter is the festival where as a Christian, I pin my hopes on, I put my money on, this not being all there is to the world. With your mum, there was a lovely idea in the book, which I think we'll pass on because I think it's a great one for other people to try. You had cards printed with your mum's face on

and you asked people who were kind to you to take a card and then take your mum on a trip. Yeah, she's had a wonderful time. She's better travelled in death than she ever was in life. She's had some wonderful celebrations and parties been skiing she's been to the raffles hotel for cocktails she's got lost in the back of a taxi in thailand we don't know what's happened to her there but she's having a great time yeah they're just because what happens is people say i'm really sorry in the early days of your grief

people will say i'm really sorry for what's happened and of course then there's that moment where you you don't know what else to do with the exchange because that you say they go I hear your mum died you go yes and they go I'm really sorry and then and then where do you go in the conversation so quite often I would I'd sort of go can I give you something and these business just little kind of you know online printed business cards with pictures my mum on and a date it's on the back her name and a date I went this is my mum and then people would look at the card and they go, oh, you look a bit like her or what's happening in this picture? Is this your christening or, you know, is this her wedding day or whatever the card had on it? And that would spur the conversation along a little

bit. And, you know, because people feel really awkward around grieving people. And then I would say, would you do me a favour? Would you take it? And it's entirely up to them what they do with it. I kept it very open and very loose. So some people put her places, you know, left her pinned to notice boards, or some people have got her on their fridge, some people have got her in their back pocket. And it was a really lovely thing to do, because there's something about that, holding something, and having an exchange that elevated it,

and of course gave them permission as well to talk about their grief. Did your mom have faith? Yes, she did. I mean, it was, it was, it was folk religion initially. We were never taken to church as kids, christened as babies. I only started going to church because I fancied the vicar's son at the local church. Well, you married him. Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, it worked out, but I wasn't necessarily expecting that. But no, not really. It was very much folk religion stuff, you know, so lots of superstition, lots of, you know, if a coffin went past, you stopped and bowed your head, all that sort of quiet respect for those who, you know, around faith and stuff. stuff but my mum came to faith um found found a faith i mean i always think faith's a bit like a coat in your wardrobe that you never really wear very often and sometimes you have to put it on and check it still fits and suits you and sometimes you grow into it really so she um she had a very bad uh stint in hospital uh back in 2016 really bad stint in hospital, and wasn't expected to make it. And when she came out of ICU, she got confirmed and started going to church. And she very much liked anything uplifting. She didn't like it too depressing.

She liked things happy, and she liked to come out of church and feel better. And I think that might be enough. We've been talking on our podcast about funerals and about the importance of funerals and about speaking at funerals. Were you able to do, to conduct your mum's funeral? No, I didn't conduct my mum's funeral.

I got a really good friend to do it. I got her priest to do it, who she really loved, who came to visit her and give her her last rites when she was dying. I did do the eulogy. I did talk about my mum. what was really interesting is my brother is not a person of faith and we disagree I said I won't do my mum's funeral because I don't I don't listen I pull focus enough right I'm the centre of attention enough I don't want my mum's funeral to be about how brave I've been

for doing my mum's funeral so I didn't do the liturgy. I didn't do the big words, but I did do the eulogy. And my brother said, oh, I thought you weren't doing the funeral because for him, the funeral was the eulogy. And for me, the funeral was the liturgy, was those big words that I say at everybody's funeral, you know, earth to earth, ashes to ashes, insurance and hope and the resurrection. So I could not say those words over my mum's coffin,

but I could talk about who she was as a person. So there was a bit of a disconnect there, which was interesting. But I will always encourage family, if they would like to take part in the funeral, they'd like to speak, then it always adds something that a priest with a dog collar on, whoever, a celebrant, whoever's at the front, who didn't know the person, just can't add. Yeah, I mean, for what it's worth, I completely agree with you. If you are able, then how wonderful to be able to do it. There is a story in the book about one of the funerals you conducted, Kate,

for a baby who had been, well, her father had been suspected of killing her. And I must admit, I read that and it really shook me because I just thought you forget sometimes what sorts of positions ministers of all faiths are put in what was that like? Well you go into professional mode is what you do you know you're trained for this we we have years of training to get us to the point where we can do those services um and so you you trained for it so first of all you don't panic and you think right you've got this you've totally got this but then also what you do is you remember that you're a mum that you know i was and that particular funeral the funeral director i wasn't the parish priest

for that person the that funeral director said i would really like a mum to do this one. So there's something that I could bring, a sensitivity that, not that might be lacking in someone else, but just an authenticity of experience that was needed in that context. And you put your big girl pants on, don't you? You just, you do it because that's your job and because that person needs you and they need you to be confident and capable

and to take as much worry away from them in a hopeless, hideous circumstance. You know, and what are you supposed to say? I mean, that's the other thing. What are you supposed to say to a mum? You know, words fail me even to talk about it now, let alone at the moment of the funeral. So you shut up.

You just be quiet and let things just happen. Let the emotion come. And you stand solid and you hold someone's hand and you say, I'm going to sit in this darkness with you for a bit. Yeah. And what's so good about you and one of the reasons you're so successful is that you don't judge, do you? You appear to absolutely accept the place that faith and or religion has in the lives of most people. Yeah, I think coming from a not particularly

religious background, you know, at first when I came to faith, because I came to faith in quite a, you know, sort of conservative evangelical background, really, you know, it was, I was told that if you weren't washed in the blood of the lamb and you hadn't prayed the prayer, you weren't getting in. So I remember someone telling me as a 14-year-old that my family were going to burn in hell and it'd probably be my fault because they haven't... And I'm so glad I've grown up. I'm so glad I grew up and changed my mind about a few things.

And I think there's a couple of things that we miss about people who are religious, which is that we presume they will always think the same thing forever which is not true you know i change my mind all the time about things things i thought you know five years ago i don't necessarily believe in the same way now um and i expect that will change again and i also think that sometimes we think with religion you've got to buy all of it you've got to believe every single word of it every single day. And that's just not possible. And if it suits you, if faith suits you for now, it's okay to use it for now. Okay. Is it all right then to go to a church, not because you believe in the religion or in some aspects of it, but because it's a community

and it's a way of meeting people? Absolutely. I mean, one of the things I always say to people who've got, you know, they talk about perhaps an older person in their family or their life who's lonely. And I go, well, go to church. You get biscuits and tea. What's not to like? And somehow we might feel guilty about that. But so what? You know, I often used to say when I was a parish priest,

I've got enough faith for all of us. So let me believe it. And if you come to a place of believing, that's great. But, you know, often, I mean, let's just look at church buildings for a start. Sometimes in communities, they're the best kept. They, you know, but they're only used for a couple of hours once a week. That's not right, is it? You know, so they're really good resources. I think that there needs to be an absolution of feeling any... Faith is there for people to find helpful and useful

and to help them grow and, you know, use what you want of it. You don't have to like all of it to find something of it useful. And I think that goes for all faiths. You know, I don't just think that's about Christianity. We see it somehow that if we pick and choose that we're somehow doing it a disservice, but I'm confused by that. That was the Reverend Kate Botley.

I really enjoy talking to Kate and her book is called Have a Little Faith. But I think that conversation illustrates just not only that vicars have real life issues of their own they've got to confront, but that some of the human situations they find themselves in the midst of are, put it mildly challenging jane i mean that was um that was tough wasn't it i don't i mean i i don't currently have a vicar in my life but if i did have i'd pick one like

kate i think you do have a vicar in your life kate kate's my vicar okay yes yeah yeah i don't think you could ask for a better one no No, I don't think you could. Well, it's been lovely having you on our fair this week. Thank you so much for having me. I'm going to make up for it all with the Stations of the Cross tomorrow, obviously. And just find time to buy a colander. Yeah, and a toaster.

And a toaster. Toasters are not expensive. And I think you'll find colanders... I'll just clutter up my own kitchen with things I don't use. Well, find a... Get a hook. And then, you know, stick it up or ask your dad to do it.

Call it art. Yeah, call it art. Don't invite men around. Smother yourself in cling film and have a very, very happy couple of days. How did you know what I was doing this weekend?

Just know too much now. That's the problem. Thank you all for the emails this week. Fee is back next week with Jane. I know that'll be fabulous and keep the emails coming.

Jane and Fee at times.ock Radio. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories

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