Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I'm still firmly anti cruise (with Tim Marshall)

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

Jane and Fi are live at Destinations: The Holiday and Travel Show, reassuringly close to Jane's house in West London. The pair discuss their dream holidays, granny daycare, lady beards and they celebrate quiet dad jobs. They're joined by Tim Marshall at the travel show. He discusses his new book 'The Future of Geography: How Power and Politics in Space Will Change Our World'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Megan McElroy Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Where are we, Fi? We're at Destinations, the travel show in Olympia, in Kensington, in West London. So you've got a little hubbub of background noise. The curious traveller has come armed with tote bags, Jane. Many, many tote bags. Would it be possible to describe the people, the good people who've turned up today, to have a look at a future destination? So these are people...

Hardy. ...who have got the luxury of choice ahead of them, Jane. So they've come to destinations, the travel show, to decide where their next adventure is going to take them. And every single part of the planet is represented here all types of holidays cruises hiking wild swimming uh we're sitting off as it's the most glorious uh stand advertising some delights of pathos in cyprus aren't we look at that oh yeah gosh i wish don't you wish you were on that sunbed right now i I do, actually, Jane. Can you put up those, you know, what are they called?

The umbrellas? The parasols? Parasol. Not really. I need a man. I always have to ask a young man to come over. I do. Would you help me do this?

Yes. It's that lovely moment. I'm always up and about and admiring the swimming pool by 8 o'clock when I'm on one of those foreign holidays. You're not admiring the swimming pool. You're guaranteeing a sun lounge. I know you are. Yes. I'm parking my big paperback very firmly on a sunbed.

So yes, it's a place that's absolutely awash with the purposeful. There's some very rugged gentlemen with substantial backpacks. Well, there are, aren't there? Zip-up fleeces. There are a lot of people who've done that very, very sensible thing that seasoned travellers always do. They've come in layers, haven't they? Actually, they're wise to,

because the temperature in this flipping venue seems to vary depending on which bit of the floor you're sitting on or near at any given time. Well, they're just trying to give the lovely delegates some kind of semblance of normality, aren't they? They go from subtropical to Antarctic just in a couple of stands. I think probably a good 50% of the people present today have been on a cruise the wrong way up or down the Danube.

Yeah, I would imagine so, yeah. A lot of talk of cruises, and I'm still firmly anti-cruise. Would you do that? Well, I went on a cruise once, and I went on a cruise once because I was sent on a cruise, and I was writing a piece about it. Well, it was when I was pregnant, quite early doors pregnant, and the combination of the very slow but certain rocking of the ship.

I can't imagine. The smell of diesel. Oh, God. The fact that there were kind of, it was a big ship, there were about 2,000 other people on board, and it was a kind of fun times Italian where we're going around the Mediterranean and they played Robbie Williams let me entertain you at about 830 every morning as a revere and it was quite problematic tone and if I can just be brutally honest about this

we missed the last reports we got off in Marseille yeah I felt ill I felt so, I felt ill. I felt so, so very, very ill. It's possibly not ideal in the early stages of pregnancy because presumably the clarion call of Robbie Williams was basically get on the Prosecco, which wouldn't have been an option for you. It didn't appeal. But, you know, actually, you've whetted my appetite slightly. If that cruise is still up and running, I might give it a...

I'll send you the details. Yeah, OK. In a serious mode, Jane, the very odd thing was we got off the ship and nobody contacted us to ask if we had got off the ship. We could have gone overboard and they wouldn't have... Are we going to name and shame the company? Let's not. But it was a bit strange.

Yeah. You did think... Yes. OK. Was I safe there? No, not entirely. I think we're safe here in Kensington Olympia at the Destinations Travel Show. Marseille, though, not a bad place to pick.

I went to Marseille during the wonderful 1998 World Cup. Did you? And it was there I witnessed one of those very lacklustre England football riots. They are pathetic football riots. Plastic cups and chairs. Plastic chairs being hurled at the quite fiery French riot police and a bunch of pot-bellied, red-faced gentlemen. I lose the use of the term lightly.

Doing England proud. Not. But it's a beautiful place, Marseille. It's so... Don't you think it's exotic? There's a real exotic, slightly seamy, somewhat steamy feel.amy feel yeah i would agree i think it's amazing because just as a port you know that it's seen everything oh it's everything everything and everybody has been through marcelle yeah i would agree so look where would your favorite destination be in the world as we're here at destination she says with a slightly corporate tone reading from the script provided by management.

Well, thank you for asking, Fee. I've been fortunate enough to have some wonderful holidays in my life. I actually don't really care where in the world I am as long as I've got access to a sunbed, like the one immediately to my left, and a lovely shade, and the prospect of a nice buffet lunch. It could be anywhere. Italy is lovely, but I'd probably go for Greece above Italy. Just there's something about, I'm going to sound like a complete brat,

there's something about the quality of life first thing in the morning in Greece. I think it's unbeautiful. I don't think that's pratish at all. Okay, thank you. Thank you for letting me off. No, really, really beautiful. And isn't it actually quite a scientific thing? Thank you for letting me off.

No, really, really beautiful. And isn't it actually quite a scientific thing? It's because the islands are quite low-lying in a vast expanse of quite frequently calm sea. So you get a kind of reflection of it that you might not get in other parts of the world. Yeah, I think it's a week in Greece every year properly recharges my batteries. I'm not a massive intrepid traveller. I'm not at all intrepid or much of a traveller, but I so look forward to that every year.

And I do, I mean, I do don't genuinely need anything else very much. I'll have a week in England and that will do me. Yeah. What about you? So I don't like to go very far afield anymore. You've got less intrepid. I have got less intrepid. I've never been intrepid. But I think I've been really lucky because I did loads of travelling for work on the travel show for a couple of years.

And, you know, it just wasn't a job. You know, it was an absolute joy. And how old were you then? Well, I was in my mid-twenties, Jen. I mean, how cool is that? And how very fortunate. And how unfair. But I'm glad for you in retrospect. Yes. I mean, how cool is that? And how very fortunate. And how unfair. But I'm glad for you in retrospect.

Yes. I mean, that's one way of looking at it. Yes, I did go to St. Petersburg. Now, I was talking to a friend this morning about St. Petersburg. There's a place I'd like to go to again. Oh, I think it would have changed massively. When did you go before? Rosie says she's been there before.

We've got our production staff with us. You'll be a mate. A team of 20,000 people have come with us to the Kensington Olympia show. What were you going to say there? Well, I thought it might have changed since he went. When did you go? 1993, and it was... So Gorbachev was in charge, and in theory things were getting a little easier,

but it was still a rufty-tufty old place. I mean, it really was. The hotel was guarded by some brick shithouse-shaped gentlemen who liked to be given a few dollars to allow the guests of the hotel to get back into the hotel. It was that sort of vibe. And there were also some ladies of the night in the hotel. Well, we had a very similar experience

when we were staying there for the travel show. And we all came down, the crew, we came down to breakfast in the morning and we all had exactly the same slightly kind of shell-shocked look on our faces. What was that noise? It was like, yep, okay. Nobody in the hotel, for various reasons,

had had very much sleep, Jane. But having said that, there were also back in 1993 you would definitely see those uh very i mean heaven knows actually how old these women were but these women bundled up in 17 layers uh selling a couple of onions on the on the side of the street i did buy buy, as a little, you know, keepsake, souvenir, on my way out of St. Petersburg, a miniature Fabergé egg. Did you? How much? Well, I mean, I think at the time it was probably under £25.

It may not have been by Mr. Fabergé. Oh, you can't. I remember buying a load of bootleg albums. I got a George Michael album, and... I don't think you should admit to that. Rosie did that too. Did George Michael get the royalties? I'm the late George Michael.

I hope the money found its way to him. I've realised I've just said something that potentially a criminal act has been carried out by me. And Rosie of Venice. So that's two of us. We're going to be led off in chains. I should think the descendants of Mr. Fabergé

are waiting at the door for me. So look, these are our holiday encounters. It would be, well, we've got a big guest,

haven't we? We're going to talk about space in this podcast. Such an interesting man, Tim Marshall. So he has written several books

about the power of geography, basically, in the past. So he's written fantastic books. There's one about ten maps of the world that I past so he's written fantastic books there's one about 10 maps of the world that i just couldn't recommend highly enough actually it's a good one

for young youngsters yes yeah and and he just tells the story of geopolitics and of the natural world in a really really interesting way and he's now turned his attention to the geopolitics of space and his book is just fascinating because I think a you can't put that genie back in the bottle there is so much going on up there that is a little bit disturbing a little bit too late for anybody to unpick but we really do need to know about it the kind of power play in space between the you know big nations of the world if you think it's aggressive down here of course it's aggressive up there. We're basically just exporting our unpleasantness out there,

away from Earth. But it's also got really brilliant kind of details in it and especially little things like the alternative to space travel because obviously you've got huge potential for danger and loss of life if you are only ever going to be able to get into space using rockets and jet propulsion and that amount of fuel and all of that. So over the years... You say that you'd read his book and that one of the early suggestions for space travel was...

Well, there were two. One was to build a very big tower. Which is quite big, wouldn't it? All the way up. Just keep going. All the way up. And the other was to land on the moon and throw a big rope back. So you'd send a couple of people up with a thick rope and just hurl it back down to Earth. Very much, yeah. So like when you want to put a bit of a kind of safety mechanism in your loft.

Exactly like that. A couple of those. And I really like that idea. Okay. So it's a good book. Who had those ideas? Oh, gosh. um you know throughout the course of time but some going back centuries so you know it's not our prerogative to look into space and wonder about it everybody's been doing that since man could stand but we're just hoping that this conversation with tim

marshall will just expand all of our minds and give you something to think about over the next couple of days because tim does talk very seriously about how um we may well or our great great great great great grandchildren might well be around when we become an interplanetary species that's quite a thought isn't it it is and that's a big thought for you don't think about it too much okay my head is beginning to pulse shall we come down to earth and do some emails before we hear from Tim? Yes, let's do that. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Emails? What happened to me there?

I don't know. I think I need to be reprogrammed. Emails on a range of subjects, as ever, and we thank you for them. What have you got? Well, this one comes from Katie, who says, Walking along listening to your latest chat, and granny daycare has come up, a subject close to my to my heart Katie says I looked after granddaughter one day a week for

over 2.5 years I do love our listeners when they're very very decimalized about excellent they see they're more than up for talking about interplanetary species they will be until they moved to Paris adored it and was massively appreciated by son and daughter-in-law who plied me with treats it filled a gap in my life as I retired from a very busy life as a teacher and it made me feel a bit validated as well as being great fun I was broken hearted when they told me that they were going

though I'm covering her Paris nursery half term in a couple of weeks and Katie says now I go to London one day a week to the other son and daughter-in-law to look after grandson number two that's a bit of a drive and it's a 12-hour shift with fewer treats but it gives my week a structure and I'm pathetically pleased to be needed I'm kind of sad Katie that you've said pathetically pleased because I think it's amazing yeah I think how lovely and and of course I mean let's be honest Jane A lot of people are here at this travel show. Don't say it. Because, no, because they still want to have a busy life.

This is why I was saying to Fee earlier. Because they still want to have a busy life. Yes, yes. And everything about this show has taught me one thing. Retirement is not an option. Not for you. Well, but it depends what you want to do with your time. I haven't got any of this sturdy outerwear I'm apparently going to need. Well, I think that's half the fun. It's choosing it and buying it, waiting for it to arrive, trying it depends what you want to do with your time. I haven't got any of this sturdy outerwear I'm apparently going to need. Well, I think that's half the fun, is choosing it and buying it, waiting for it to arrive, trying it on, finding it doesn't fit and sending it back.

Katie, I think that's, yes, I agree with Fi. I don't like the use of the word pathetically. You're doing a wonderful thing. Oh, God, and lucky kids as well. Yes, fantastic. To have a, you know, willing pair of hands. Yeah. And, you know, all hail to you.

Yeah. And this is from, sorry, I'm required to have technical skills that aren't really, they're slightly beyond me. Jane is currently moving the mouse, everybody. Exactly. It's from Brenda. I'd like to share my reason for giving up my job at 55 to look after my first grandchild full-time. I'd had to go back to work full-time when my own daughter was just eight weeks old for financial reasons.

My own mother did look after her initially, but when my son arrived just over a year after that, my mum just felt she couldn't look after two such small children, so I got a childminder. She was wonderful, but I really felt I missed out on those lovely baby days. And there was also the guilt of leaving sick children off to the minder, and of course then the cost of childcare as well. By the time my first of three granddaughters arrived, I was financially secure enough to take early retirement, and I loved spending time with the babies and toddlers, doing all the things I'd missed out on.

And I could just focus all my time and energy on them, no pressure to keep on top of housework or rushing to get shopping. But I've always felt it to be the most wonderful privilege to be trusted with these most wonderful little girls. And frankly, I've done it as much for me as to help my wonderful daughter. She does say it was long and exhausting, especially as the girls are close in age. So they were nappies at the same time.

And that can be really tricky. But they're at primary school now. We have a wonderful bond. I miss them being around during the day, and then I really look forward to picking them up. I believe age has given me the perspective of knowing those early years fly by, and they're precious, and they are to be savoured.

Brenda, thank you. That's absolutely lovely. And I agree, that business about that realisation as you get older that nothing is forever, and however long those days might seem, and they do seem long, they're not permanent. That person in nappies will one day be working in tech. Yes, and also there just are other parts of your life

that can seem interminable and boring. Don't look at me like that, please. For God's sake. Like a knife through the heart. We're at Kensington Olympia. We're living the dream here. I know, and hopefully someone's going to give us some biscuits soon. Joe contacts

us from Ripon in North Yorkshire. I had a good laugh at today's podcast at the mention of ladybeards. Our seven-year-old son has assigned each of us in the family pirate names, and mine is Captain Ladybeard, which always elicits sniggering from his two big brothers and my husband who all insist that a ladybeard is another name for women's pubic hair

and not in fact the beard on the chin that a lady might rarely grow he also recently introduced me to another mum in the playground by saying this is my mum she's trying to grow a beard which resulted in a bit of awkwardness as she didn't know what to say. I'm not surprised, Jo. Just to add, I'm not particularly hairy at all, especially for a nearly 42-year-old. I just have a few whiskers here and there that pop through occasionally. Jane, my eyelash eyebrow tech lady, sees to these when I see her, so don't be offended that you're offered this additional service when in the brow chair. And I was thinking about that yesterday.

It's quite good when somebody notices something that you might not have noticed and offers to remove it i would say that that's quite a good rule for everything in life are you trying to find is that your way of saying next time she asks about my i should just say yes yes ladies says um this listener we're not ladies. Well, I'm certainly not. B, this is from B. And she says, I'm sending this after an exhausting day of unpacking, cleaning and herding my four-year-old. The unpacking is because I've just moved to Bristol following a move from Singapore and then London in the last couple of years. I just wanted to say thank you for your recommendation of Ghost Story.

Did we recommend Ghost Story? Come back in the room, back in the room back in the room um ghost story i don't know whether we did i think that might be marina hyde's podcast yes we did we didn't recommend ghost story and i don't know what it is and fee doesn't know either um right but but it gets better because b says, I particularly liked All of Us Strangers. I sobbed and reflected on my own childhood, which at times was lacking in emotional and tender moments. And my current relationship is on the rocks. I was still crying when I nipped to the bathroom after that film. The acting was fantastic.

I thought the relationship between father and son was beautiful. By the way, Amazon's on to you. We know this, don't we? After finishing the latest Book Club book, Amazon then recommended your previous books. Oh, that's quite spooky, Jane. Yeah, well, they are spooky. Big, big tech is deeply, deeply concerning.

However, Bea says, thanks for keeping me company as I feel increasingly lonely in my marriage and my new city. We're both really sorry to hear that. And I do trust that things will get better and they will. She does go on to say it's a lot easier to make friends as an expat in a new city than in a new place in England. And we need to talk about that. We do need to talk about that. Yeah. I think when you say yourself, you're now living in

Bristol, which is, you know, it's a gorgeous place with plenty of options, I would have thought, I would have hoped. Yeah, but I think it's a very good point because often expats have a kind of community already set up, don't they? Because you join a group of people who have been living, you know, kind of their own way, knowing people through companies that have placed them in expat communities. You all tend to live, I mean, sometimes in compounds. You lived in an expat communities you all tend to live i mean sometimes as a child you lived in an expat community so yes we did and is it enough to have your nationality in common well i mean my my mum didn't enjoy living in a expat community i don't think she'd mind me saying that and we came home so I think it suits some people hugely I mean personally

I I'm not sure I certainly haven't chosen in my own life to go you know and leave Britain and take a little bit of Britain with me and stay trying to live with that little bit of Britain when I'm not in Britain if you see what I mean yeah but I think lots of expats have an absolutely fantastic life and you know the community is very strong. You walk into, you know, a group of people that you have an awful lot in common with. And I think Bea's got a very good point that actually if you turn up in a big city, then, you know, you have to make all of the effort yourself, don't you, to get involved and find communities and find your tribe.

I mean, I'm in awe of anyone who moves anywhere because i'm so incredibly reluctant to do it myself so um b i really do hope that your four-year-old actually will allow you to make friends with people there'll be places to go clubs to join uh and even if you don't get on with everybody you just need one like-minded body that's all he's got it's not me but but she has got one. Never a missed opportunity, dear podcast listeners. Oh, I can't laugh because I've got one really good email to do. A little bit of a pop, but younger, smaller, more junior member of the team. It's just so fantastic that I work with someone who's smaller than me. I think we're allowed one more email each because I've got such a good one to read.

Okay. Can I just read this one incredibly quickly and then you do your one? We won't say anything about it, but it just continues our conversation. It's from Billy. It's about birth memories. I don't remember my birth or much of my early years, but I used to have horrible nightmares about going through passages that got tighter and tighter and involved getting through odd kinks.

I had them until I was in my early 40s when I suddenly thought, could this be a visceral memory of birth? I haven't had a version of this dream since that lightbulb moment. Just saying. Brilliant. The conversation continues. Right, you do yours. Yeah, more emails on that bizarre subject, please. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio.

Regarding shoe cleaning, this is something that you mentioned the other day. Victoria says, when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, my father would line up all our shoes once a week and clean them with a beautiful kit that he kept in the shed. When I was nearly 16 he had to go into hospital for day surgery for something quite routine and was expected to be home by tea time. I said goodbye to him after breakfast and went to school. At the hospital he had a massive heart attack and he died. I came home from school and life was never the same again. The shock of such an unexpected and sudden death had a huge effect on my ability to remember much, especially about the immediate aftermath of that day.

But I do have a clear memory that I've kept hold of, because I had a lovely boyfriend at the time who lived in the next-door village. He came to see me and, without saying anything, quietly went off to our shed. Do you know know i find this so sad i can't read and cleaned all our shoes i have never forgotten his kindness i still have my dad's leather box containing the polishes the brushes and a beautiful velvet cushion that he used for buffing our shoes up when he'd finished cleaning them it is such a treasure to me uh victoria thank you so much What a lovely memory of your dad

and what a fantastic boyfriend. What a kind, just what a kind, small but brilliant thing that he did for you on that day. So lovely. Yeah, I completely agree with all of that. And actually, on a very similar vein, my dad used to have a thing about polishing his shoes, I think, because he'd been in the army for a very long time.

And when I think of shoe cleaning, it is absolutely about him. Buffing and shining and polishing, all laid out on the newspaper until every last bit of dirt had been removed and you could see your face in the reflection of the shoes. And it's an old-fashioned art. It is, it is. It's a proper dad job.'t it's not sexist or anything like that just to say that those are the quiet dad jobs that go on without many people

noticing and lovely memories and clean shoes everyone's a winner tim marshall is a man who wants to take your mind and maybe your travel ambitions to the ultimate destination, which is space. In his latest book, he considers the future of geography, how the competition in space will change our world. Other things you need to know, Tim is a former foreign correspondent for Sky for many years, reporting from danger zones around the world. And his previous books have looked at the world,

often through intriguing maps, and all sorts and they would have a very hard recommend from both of us let's talk about space then Tim when we look up at space I think most of us go oh my goodness look at the emptiness look at the wonder you know it enables us to really let rip with our imagination. But I know from reading your book that actually it's alarmingly busy up there already. So just talk us through how much stuff is in space. 8,000 satellites, working satellites already at the moment, with plans to have at least 30,000 by the end of the decade. As many bits of debris made of metal that you could shake a stick at, by which I mean tens of millions of pieces, which you really wouldn't want to get hit by because

they're going several thousand miles an hour. Further up, there's even more satellites, geosynchronous orbit. Oh, and well, we didn't really get to what's on the moon, including dozens of bags of human excrement that were left behind, but perhaps you don't want to go there. Oh, no, we do. Oh, you do? Oh, well. Well, I'm afraid there's all sorts of things that the Americans left behind, which one day may be in a space museum on the moon, who knows.

But, sorry, to be more serious, it's getting busier and busier, and there's a lot of problems that come with that. One, if you want to be there and you can't get there yet, it might be full by the time you can, by which I mean first come first served and therefore developing countries not getting a slice of this. The more there is, the more

problems of potentially satellites crashing into each other and if they do that en masse, there'll be a worldwide recession. And then there's the, I'm afraid, the increasing militarization of space. You know, we are busy putting things up there, not yet which can fire at each other. But given the history of, I was going to say humanity, but in this case, it's more history of mankind. It's pretty inevitable, isn't it? We'll stick

weapons up there at some point i fear it is but tell us a bit more about the power play that's going on in space so you've got three main players haven't you china usa very close to each other um in their competition um just behind them russia those are the three big players and what what I found interesting in the book is that it mirrors the blocks on Earth. You know, there is an American-led block, clearly, on Earth. And they're going up, many of them, under something called the Artemis Accords, back to the moon. In 2026, the Americans hope to land a man and a woman on the moon. But the Chinese are going up in competition

with a race to have the first moon base with their junior partner as Russia and then other countries like Iran and North Korea. So this mirrors the very geopolitical tensions we've got here on Earth. And, of course, when you think of it, of course it does. Why wouldn't it? But it is just so unfair, isn't it? So, I mean, especially for countries that have emerging economies.

I mean, if you take a country like Nigeria, I think it's got the fastest growing population on Earth, hasn't it? It's going to have an increasingly young population. Is it just a fact that because it wasn't in at the beginning in space, whatever Nigeria becomes, it will never have a place in space? On the figures, I think it's something like 180 million now and 400 million by 2060,

which puts our 70 million into perspective. It's an interesting one, Nigeria, because their universities already now make their own cube satellites. These are satellites the size of a Rubik's Cube, and you make about 20 of them, and they go in a constellation. So they are actually one of the 80 countries that has a presence in space,

but they're not a space-faring country. There's no way they can, in the foreseeable future, get out there. They simply can make the kit and pay other people to put it in there for them. But that still leaves, what, 110 other countries that are not in space. 110 of other countries that are not in space. And as I said previously, given the amount of bandwidth, let's say a geosynchronous orbit, this is the orbit that is much higher up than low Earth orbit,

but it turns at the same speed that the Earth turns. So it's incredibly useful to have a satellite up there, turning at the same speed, looking at exactly the same piece of territory. Very useful for many reasons. Well, there's only so much bandwidth up there, and therefore if you're not there soon, you're never going to be there. And to a lesser extent, you could make that argument about low Earth orbit, where most of the satellites are. So just as in previous decades or eras,

developing countries have been carved out, I think and I fear the same thing will happen. If I was to rewrite space treaties, which desperately need rewriting, I would write into them that there has to be X percentage which is set aside for developing countries to have a presence later on. But that's not going to happen at the moment. Could a country not shoot down another country's satellite? Yes, clearly an act of war.

Already countries have shot down their own satellites. Four countries have done this. They've launched a ballistic missile from Earth and they've hit one of their own satellites in space and blown it up. Just to test, clearly not to test in case they want to do it again to one of their own satellites. And that's India, China, Russia and the USA. So that's already a thing.

The Chinese and Russians refuse to have a moratorium on these tests. So that's still out there. But what I suspect is coming down the corner, you may have seen recently the laser weapons, the British now have them, which can bring down a drone at X kilometres range. Well, if you were to put one of those onto a satellite, then that could easily hit another satellite in space. That's actually very simple. And so there's going to be a great temptation to do that. But all this technology, for better or for worse, is in the domain of a clear minority of countries.

I mean, thank goodness we've got such sensible private money going into space, Tim, with people like Elon Musk. Well, that's one of my terrible dad jokes. I smell a muskrat, Which is a line in the book. So just let's talk about Elon Musk because he's so important in the conversation about space, isn't he? Because not only is he behind SpaceX but he's also behind Starlink and not

everybody. So look, we're amongst a community here at Destinations, the travel show, of people who are immensely curious about the world. They've travelled to all kinds of places. They want to find out things. I bet about 90% of people in this hall today wouldn't be able to tell you what SpaceX and Starlink actually are and the link between them.

Would you agree? Yeah, I'd agree with that. SpaceX, the most powerful private money launch system, which so many of the world's satellites up there and also is an integral part of the Artemis mission to land Americans on the moon again in a couple of years. And Starlink is interesting in another way. Starlink is a constellation satellite system that delivers internet to all sorts of places.

And that's a good thing because there are places which aren't physically connected and so you can beam it down by the internet. Fine. Two years ago, there was a world first and it was in the Russia-Ukraine war. Part of the Ukrainian internet system went down because the ground stations were bombed. In comes Elon Musk riding on a big white horse because he flew in thousands of satellite terminals which could receive his internet system and so of course they got the internet back up and running happy days and of course the Ukrainian military jumped on it in order to target Russian soldiers at which point Russia immediately began to dazzle this is where you basically send packets of laser light up through the clouds, which obviously weakens the signal.

You can't blow satellites up yet, I don't think, using this, but you can dazzle them so they can no longer see. Or you send packets of information up, which is called spoofing. It scrambles their signals in order to make sure that the Ukrainian military couldn't use it. Now, that's a world first. That is a new element in warfare. And it's just the beginning. One of the terrifying details in your book, though,

was something you put in about the terms and conditions that people might already have signed if they have anything to do with Starlink, if they were ever also to be part of Elon Musk's attempt to put people on Mars. So you would already have signed a thing that said, once you got to Mars, Elon Musk's companies are in control of all of your comms. I've had it reasonably amusing as well, as well as frightening. Would you sign that, Jane? Probably not.

You would because you wouldn't have looked at the terms and conditions. You'd just have signed. Yeah, no, of course I would sign it. Exactly. Yeah, that's the problem. But I think it's a really clear example, isn't it, of how far behind many of us are. Yeah, the story is, and this is true, I looked up the terms and conditions probably for the first time in my life. Were you to sign up for Starlink's internet service here, there are clauses in it that say,

as and when Starlink's system is providing the internet for women living on Mars, at that point you have agreed, if there's any problem, legal problem with the system, or you want to take your kit back, whatever it is, you will not refer to any Earth-based legal system or government. You will only refer to the Mars-based powers, which means King Musk, I believe.

Now, the reason it's so funny is that that's not going to happen in the next 20, 30, 40 years. But the interesting point about it is it's clear that that is going to be the future if and when we become an interplanetary species. And the analogy is the 13 colonies of Britain in the United States. There was clearly, not just in hindsight, going to come a point when they were going to say, hang on a minute, this bloke, this king 3,000 miles away across the Atlantic wants to tell us what to do. No. And, you know, clearly, if we ever have mars or wherever else clearly at some point they'll say no all right but that's the fun stuff i mean because that's so far can i just inject a bit more fun because um there is a place that we might live or our great great great great grandchildren might live and it's called l5 oh

yes so tell me about l5 where Where is it? I have no idea. It's in space somewhere, a very long way. L5 is one of the Lagrange points. When you have two celestial bodies, let's say the Moon and Earth, there's a point, a sweet spot between them where the gravity, in layperson's terms, because that's all I'm capable of,

cancels the other piece of gravity out and therefore you can hang a machine in there without it needing fuel and it'll stay there. Rooted? Well it will stay in the same position relative to the two celestial bodies so you all will always know where it is. Right. Because if you were to build a space city... Just tap into ways, love. If you were to build a space city, and I'm sure it's on your list to do things, you don't want it floating off

because you might go on holiday and then come back and it wasn't there anymore. So if... I really do believe, but we're hundreds of years into the future now, but that's where you would park them, on the Lagrange points, so that they wouldn't move.

You'd also put all your stuff that you'd mined, you'd stick it there so it didn't float off. So there's L1, L2, L3, L4, L5. So, sorry, these are not planets that have been located in potential homes. No, these are simply geographic areas within the vicinity of two celestial bodies that are close to each other, been located to potential homes. These are simply geographic areas within the vicinity of two celestial bodies that are close to each other. The Earth and the Moon is the best example.

Another example, which is actually perhaps more understandable, L2 L5 is much further away. L2 is just on the far side of the Moon, which is what Pink Floyd should have called their album, of course, because there is no dark side. Silly of them. So L2 is just on the other side of the moon the bit we can't see and at that point that thing where the gravity cancels out and that is where the Chinese have positioned

a satellite knowing that they can now look at that side of the moon all of the time. Now there's not a great deal going on there, as far as I know, unless the clangers come out at night without us knowing. But that's not the point. The Chinese are across it. Exactly. Can we talk about women in space? We can.

Not the usual question about, you know, why aren't there enough women astronauts and all that kind of stuff. It seemed to me, reading various passages in the book, that actually female bodies, which are needed for procreation and the continuation of the human race, Wow, they are for now. Sorry, was that the wrong thing to say to two eminent... Feminist headbangers.

That was a deliberate joke about... Well, I'm not finding it funny. It's a deliberate joke because, as you well know, it is... Security, security. Remove this man. Help. It is well theorised that men at some point will become obsolete. Yes, but until that time, bear with us. Bear with us and our silly wombs. Isn't it just true that pregnancy in space is immensely difficult,

very dangerous and actually might not be possible? Firstly on women, I think the longest anyone's ever been in space was a woman on the space station. There are increasing numbers of astronauts. In 2026, the Americans intend to land a woman on the moon. But yes, in the longer term, how are you going to practice procreate? Well, you can practice procreation as much as you like in or out of space, but you can't then practise whether the foetus would gestate in the way it would be expected to on Earth,

because zero gravity does stuff. But I just hope that hopefully science and technology will give us those answers, because you don't want to be the human guinea pig on that. But it is one of many, many long-term issues if we are going to be an interplanetary species, which I personally believe we are. I mean, some of the book is about that, and I do think that's the fun stuff

because it's just looking ahead so far. You know, the key is that the centre of the book is about astropolitics, geopolitics in space. But that long-term stuff, yeah, when do you start talking about it? Yeah, now. Now's good. Can you still look up at the skies with a sense of wonder, having looked into all of this? Oh, more so. More so. Having, you know, looked at distances, which, of course, your brain just melts

once you get past several million miles and the concept of light years not no absolutely i i'm i'm uh still overwhelmed by it and i actually think that's a very human thing i think we always have been i think it's part of the human condition and it's also why when people give me the very strong arguments about why we won't do x y and z cost all the things we should be doing down here pollutinguting. You can give me as many arguments as you want and I understand them and might even agree with some. But I think that will be trumped by the human, the aspect of the human condition that has always wanted to know what's at the top of that mountain, what's over there at the end of that water.

And that's why we're going to do it. Tim, it's lovely to see you here. Thank you very much indeed. If you are at the end of that water. And that's why we're going to do it. Tim, it's lovely to see you here. Thank you very much indeed. If you are at the Destinations Travel Show, you're about to go and sign lots of books. Yeah, I am. And I've already got four free biscuits and a free magazine. It's good here.

It is good. But if you find more biscuits, will you bring them back? Yeah, because we've not had any free biscuits. Share those. Oh, thanks, Tim. What a gentleman. Are they space candy? Oh, I think they're very much.

That's quite nice. Salted caramel are my favourite. Just very briefly, what's your favourite place on Earth? Apart from Ellen Road, which is the Leeds United football stadium, but I will be in Bristol tomorrow night for the away game. Did I mention? No. Italy.

Right. It's got the lot. Good answer. It's got the lot. It's got the food. It's got the wine. It's got the weather. Yeah.

It's also got Italians. Oh, North Korea is second. Right. Well, that's another interview. Thank you very much. Thanks. Thank you for putting up with me. It's a pleasure. It's our pleasure too. We're bringing the shutters down on another episode of the internationally acclaimed podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe

But don't forget that you can get another two hours of us every Monday to Thursday afternoon here on Times Radio We start at 3pm and you can listen for free on your smart speaker Just shout Play Times Radio at it You can also get us on DAB Radio in the car or on the Times Radio app whilst you're out and about being extremely busy and you can follow all our tosh behind the mic and elsewhere on our instagram account just go

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