Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I'm the Shirley Temple of radio! (with Daisy Goodwin)

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Jane and Fi grapple with the big questions on this rainy Thursday. How do you make the sound of snogging? What kind of audio book would Fi read? Should men have more right to football pitches if they build them? (Spoiler alert: no.)They're also joined by screenwriter Daisy Goodwin to discuss her new play 'By Royal Appointment'You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_ukiIf you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murrayAnd if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What would you be best suited to? I don't know, please, I don't know. A thrilling romance. A thrilling romance? Set in either Basingstoke or Bromley. Okay, well, they're sexy towns. For a long time I had the original Channel 4 jingle stuck in my head. What was that?

Dun dun dun dun. Oh I tell you what, we've got a celebrity request from Dr Ian Dale. Hang on, when did he become? Oh it's an honorary doctorate. Oh you're turning me up, that's what's wrong. Can we swap headphones? Yeah. We're patched into the wrong bay. Just to mention... Oh!

Oh, Lord. Apropos of nothing. How deaf are you? Oh, my. No, that went too much up. That's why I had to... That was all wrong. Oh, I love Tommy Vance. We're currently working for Britain's fastest-growing speech radio station fee, aren't we? We are, but Ian will be really disappointed that you've already changed the topic of conversation. That's why we've mentioned it. We are.

Times Radio has put on 29%. That's extraordinary. I love that figure. 29%, everybody. You don't need to go too much into the finer details of it, but that's a big, big figure. Thanks to everybody who's recently brought Times Radio into their listening routine, we're very grateful. And if you've never listened to it live, honestly the best way is to get the app, isn't it? It's so simple. It is. Honestly, it really is.

Are you done? Yeah, I think so but I just felt... I tell you what. Didn't you get an email about this? You've come a long way. Right, can we just get back to Dr Ian Dale? He's been given an honorary doctorate at the University of Kent, Jane. Oh yes, like the one you got? Yes, that's right. You're always very rude about the University of Kent and I'm hoping that this will help it go up in your estimation.

So Dr Ian Dale was in touch because I love his attention to detail as a podcast listener. First of all he informed me that Gary was married to Valene. Do you remember Valene? I do now. That's, can I just, I don't want to cause a fence. That's a terrible name isn't it? It's not the best. Sorry Valene's everywhere. Are there many Valenes now? I don't think so. It just sounds like a window cleaning product. It sounds like something that would be very strong smelling and probably would get rid

of some of your grease marks. And Gary did, you're absolutely right, to remember the image of Gary wearing a V-neck with nothing underneath it. I think he had quite a sturdy neck, didn't he, and some emotional difficulties. He was blonde, wasn't he? That probably explains it. But also, Ian pointed out that I'd sung the theme tune to Dallas, not the wonderful, kind of boozy, saxophonist-heavy theme tune to Nots Landing. Can you remember it? I really can't, I also it was wrestling.

We're transported to that cul-de-sac. Which city was it in? I don't know because they'd all had to leave Dallas because there's just been so much nefarious activity. I think they went to the, wouldn't they? They've gone to the West Coast. I'm thinking it was a bit kind of California sunshine. Was he a relative of the Ewing's of Dallas? Yes. But what kind of a relative? I think he was, was he the kind of thick blonde sun? No, I don't think he was the sun. Well, Dr Ian will surely know and if he does remember, he can let us know. Or was Gary a nephew? Oh god. Right, not landing.

Anyway, congratulations Ian, that's a lovely thing to have got and I think the ceremony was whooped and hollered away, so we're always going to refer to you now as Dr Dale. And I'm always listening to him, usually in the bath, during the course of my working week. Good luck with that image, Ian. Sorry Ian, that probably, when he does. He has a nightly feature where he has people with opposing political views chit chatting.

Are they having a donding? Sometimes they have a donding but it's always done in an agreeable way. Right, well that's why we've put on 29% because we're just having a punch up here. No we're not. This is from Alison. Hello Afeejane and Rosie. It's been great catching up with your chats. We just got back from holiday. We're about to start watching the second series of Karen Pirrie. And I'll be focusing keenly on the bum bag fanny pack. Along with her wandering accents, she says,

or the wandering accents, yes there are a few people who shall we say are hard to place in Karen Pirrie. Alison says, I too wear a bum bag at work. Maybe one day Karen will reveal what she carries in hers. Mine has a pen, a paper, a phone, sanitary towels and emergency snacks. It also comes in very handy to clip the radio onto. I work in a large multi-floored library, but not a police station. Unlike Karen, who you mentioned has been known to wear hers at home too, mine is always unclipped on the way out to my

car. Bumbags rule, says Alison. Right. Perhaps they are gonna make a comeback. I mean they're practical I guess aren't they? They are very sensible. I just, I don't know. I never, I never really took to them in the first place. Well we were talking on the program yesterday weren't we about, or John Pienaar came in. This is the radio program I'm referencing now to talk about a Birkin handbag or something something to do with them So the original Birkin handbag made by Herms Went at auction for something ridiculous like eight million

Dollars and you and I both just said we just we need bags, we carry a bag, but we don't get bags. No and I refuse and have always refused to be the carrier of somebody else's advertising. You know with the name across. Yes, I do. You know I don't I don't want to give a company free advertising. I've already bought your bloody product love. You know that's enough. There was a really, really good charity,

and I will look it up, so it will be in Monday's episode that made bags, handbags, really beautiful handbags, with the sole intention of kind of knocking that ridiculous handbag branding thing off its post. And it started about 10 years ago, so it's quite possible that it's not in business anymore. But I'll look at it because I think the idea was that every month they or six months or whatever they'd bring out a new Handbag as all of those companies do you know they'll have an Alexa and then they'll have a Sylvie and all of that nonsense Have a valine eventually yes, and so you're buying into that obsolescence which I plummet ate as well.

Yeah, the tech companies do that too. But it was the handbag company was challenging that with bringing out a new edition of its handbag with donations to a different charity. I'm really going to throw it out there, if you get bags, if you love bags, if you collect them, some people do. Listen to a different podcast. Well, if you listen to a different, or tell us why you think it's worth investing in a really expensive item to carry around your bits. I think also these days, and this is just a horrible fact of life, is advertising a

kind of wealth that thieves are very drawn to because you can just pop it up on the vintage or whatever and you kind of, do you get away with it? You possibly might. Can we just say hello to our lovely listener from yesterday who had plonker dad. Do you remember plonker dad who had plonked himself back in his family's life, having really not done enough to deserve the welcome? And she just wanted to say thank you for your outrage. It did indeed make me feel better. I felt so stressed and morally confused and it was nice to have some support

across the airwaves. Just a little update, we are now forking out for him to stay in rented accommodation. I mean it just doesn't stop does it? Until the local authority are convinced of his intention to stay in the UK after a 50 year absence and he becomes entitled to some benefits. He has no claim to the overseas properties he paid for as they're not in his name and no one has heard from his wife since the money ran out. I mean, I'm laughing but only in a very bleak way and honestly sending love again because this is shit and I think you're dealing with it brilliantly and if the support you've had from us has helped in any way then we're delighted. But you're right, it's shit with a piddle on top.

Yeah, flip their neck. I love this from Live in Leadbury. Can I just say Leadbury is one of my favourite places, a wonderful bustling market town, nestling on the Herefordshire-Worcestershire border. So big shout out to Leadbury, it has lots of gorgeous independent stores. Don't let us stop you. No, well, don't rule it out. Maybe not in the near future but you never know. And yes Rosie, get ready because Liv qualifies for this. I thought you'd like to see this letter my mum got back from my head teacher when she wrote requesting that I be allowed to play football for the school team in 1977 when I was 10. I never

got even to wear a pair of football boots, never mind playing a team as a child. Despite being obsessed with the game I was condemned to years of hockey and netball at high school. When I went to Oxford in the mid-1980s, some trailblazers were getting women's football going there, and in my third year, we applied for recognition at Blue Level. What's Blue Level? Well, this is where... Oh, she says you are awarded a blue for representing Oxford against Cambridge.

Oh, OK, right, I've heard of that. Yeah, I have as well. The committee awarded us six half blues, because they're only playing football. So half the team got half a blue. Believe it or not, she says, we were thrilled at the time. When I see little girls playing football with their own boys and kits and teams,

it still brings a tear to my eye, never mind the England team winning trophies. I think it's been fantastic this week, says Liv. So shall we hear the letter? The letter is just mind-boggling. Whatever you're doing at the moment, just take a moment, just concentrate on this, turn on the other sound down, don't fall asleep, you're in for a mighty treat. It should be in a museum, this. This is from the 23rd of September 1977. Different times. Dear Maureen, this is Liv's mom. Thank you for your letter

regarding Olivia's predilection for the manly arts. How's that for contravening the Sex Discrimination Act? says the chortling head teacher with an exclamation mark. While I'm sympathetic to her preference for football, I'm afraid our organisation is not yet flexible enough to cope with such minority groups. If there should be a marked and lasting tendency among girls to opt for football, I should be able to do something about it. Meanwhile, I think Olivia must be prepared to add netball to her game's repertoire. She seems already to have no mean prowess, and indulge her love for football by joining the boys and other girls so inclined in the playground

after school. This is my favourite bit. I've explained this to her and she's taken it like a man. No words. Oh god. I don't know. I am more or less speechless there. I always think how much has changed in my lifetime. I mean, you just couldn't write that letter nowadays. Thank God. But it's on every level is wrong isn't it? Well it is but I think we'd be a little bit naive to think that every school around the country has embraced the equality that is needed in the playground for football or in the time that's allocated to the girls' team or the boys' team or actually quite a lot of the leagues that play across the country. I think

other people might be listening thinking actually we haven't come that far. And of course it's true that there will be an amazing trickle-down effect. I'm not taking anything away from lionesses at all. But I think, you know, maybe we exist in a slightly kind of privileged world where we're seeing more equality than is available to some girls. Certainly, you know, outside big cities and stuff like that. I bet there are a lot of people who are receiving almost the same response at school. I also admire the fact that Liv's mum kept this letter. I know. so you knew didn't you? She knew change was coming. You knew that that was just wrong with a great

big fat W at the beginning of it. But you're right, it's the kind of attempt at humour. It's like, oh, stupid woman, silly girl. What an eccentric figure this child appears to be. That bit at the top about that, how's that for contravening the Sex Discrimination Act. I tell you what you should always be proud of contravening an act as a headmaster. It's a great thing to be able to be proud of. I've never ever commented under the line in an article, have you? Yes I have. Okay well I so nearly did and it was yesterday evening I was reading an article on the Times.com by Matthew Syed, did you read it? It was called What's Women's Football Ever Done For Us?

No, I didn't read it. He was basically sending up the idea, he was pretending, he was giving us an idea of a grumpy old geezer in a pub saying that and then being challenged by everybody else in the pub who mentioned all the great aspects of women's football and then overwhelmingly in the comments it was people saying oh this really made me laugh Matthew great way of making a really important point and then one bloke commented to say I do hope boys aren't going to lose out as a result of all this because it may be that girls are

spending far too much time on the pitches and of course men build the pitches and girls don't build them. And you just think, no, no, but girls, women give birth to the people who make the pitches, build the pitches, kick footballs, take out teeth, wipe arses and indeed do everything else on this earth required of the human. So, but I wrote it, I wrote it Fi. But you didn't press that. I think I'm still adjusting to HRT again. I think maybe I'll have modified everything this time next week, I'll be less angry. But that kind of comment makes me seethe. It's so ridiculous. Anyway, I'm alright now. Karma. Can we just have this lovely one about football and I'll stop talking about it. This can be from, can we say the name? I think we can. It's from Lucy. Lucy just loves football, she says, I've just got back from watching the Lionesses parade their

trophy down the Mall, I ended up in front of Buckingham Palace, it was absolutely great. People of all colours, shapes and sizes, clapping, singing, talking to each other, making sure we could all see. I have been going to Stanford Bridge to see my beloved team Chelsea for 35 years. I also have a home and away season ticket, so I go all over the country to the most unglamorous stadiums and to the most spectacular. I've followed Chelsea men to Stockholm, Barcelona, Rome, Monaco and Munich to name but a few. I just love watching my boys. The atmosphere, the competition, the determination, the grit, it's like being in a giant choir. I love it. It's every weekend.

I love it. Boyfriends come and go. And there's no doubt I've lost girlfriends to my passion, but I don't care. I just love it. However, something has happened to me. I am now gripped and in love with the England women's team. My sister totally defected to the women a couple of years ago. She's gay and found a whole other ultra cool gang to hang out with. Four years ago she took me to my first women's match and it was great. And I noticed that I'd been wrong in thinking it would be so-called just mothers with their daughters. There are actually hundreds of dads with their sons, there are families. It's a whole spectrum. I started going now and again and now I have a season ticket to King's Meadow where Chelsea women play

I don't know she says how I still have a boyfriend. Anyway, she does During these past four years. I've been to Wembley and various other stadiums when England won in 2022 I cried tears of joy and pride and extreme happiness Then during the World Cup in 2023 I hated it when they lost in the final. Who are brilliant? Because the Spanish, sorry, they lost to Spain. Who are brilliant? I mean, they are brilliant, there's no doubt about it. She then uses a swear word for you when she remembers the events of Sunday evening. It was, without a shadow of a doubt, the kind of event

that would have made even the least potty-mouthed of us use expletives in joy, because it's not unknown. I went off to central London to see the lionesses show their cup and give them impromptu speeches on a stage, and I sobbed in my sister's arms, unable to explain this emotion. I'm a grown woman and I have never felt anything like this before. Right, she also just points out and this is not irrelevant, no one was arrested, no one was abusive, no one's offensive, no one's aggressive, no one fought, no one was singing misogynistic songs, no one is

shouting naff cringey chants. Right, love from Lucy. Give it time, love. Well no, I don't think it will happen at all. And hopefully it's that rising tide takes all the boats with it. You know, the more people go to women's football and see the behaviour there, the less tolerance there is for the poor behaviour in the men's game. Well I think that's an interesting viewpoint because that's from somebody who absolutely loves the men's game and has witnessed it, has been in the... And I think like a lot of people I was taken to a men's football match by my dad when I was 10. And you don't ever forget that first glimpse of the pitch and the smells and the incredible language I learnt on that day. And really, some of those words genuinely I'd never heard before.

I wasn't really sure what they meant. But everything about that day has stuck with me. So it's perfectly possible to be a massive fan of what England achieved and also to say, yeah, I've enjoyed watching men play as well. Yeah, I've got a cause to. I mean, it shouldn't be one or the other. It's not an either or. No, it doesn't need to be. Anyway, thank you for that. And also because it's not an either or in any other sport.

It doesn't. Well, no, it isn't. You're allowed to, completely allowed to have preferences if you want to, but you know Wimbledon doesn't only exist because the men appear at it, it doesn't only exist because the women appear at it. You're going to see both games, wouldn't you? You'd hope anyway. But I'd like to see more parity actually in the women's tennis game, and do you know who we could ask about that Jane?

I don't know, could you throw a name at me? I'm just gonna throw in Judy Murray okay and if we had an opportunity to interview her live in front of a studio audience oh my goodness we do we're in North Berwick next Friday some tickets are still available. Oh they're not. If you'd like to come along and see us and Judy is our guest she's got a novel out but we will definitely talk to her about that. I mean that is a woman who understands I think more than anybody else in this country the will and determination it takes to keep going and going and going through sport and I've always

loved what she has to say about the women's game even though it's her boys that you know she has propelled through to fame fortune and sporting glory so should we put all of those things to her? Yeah I mean I'm sure it's as if she'd had daughters she's happened to have had daughters there's probably every chance they'd have been brilliant tennis players too. Yeah. But she's also a woman who knows what it's like to be criticized for having a winning mentality. Oh definitely yeah and for daring to be a woman who knows what it's like to be criticised for having a winning mentality. Oh definitely, yeah. It's extraordinary isn't it? And for daring to be a woman who's competitive and ambitious.

Yeah, well you can't win, you mustn't be ambitious. Jordan, you really shouldn't. I mean let's all hope that Mr Vigman's going to have a proper home-cooked meal over the next couple of days. Oh, Serena and Bernard boy. That's, you know, I want that to turn into something bigger. a boy. I want that to turn into something bigger. Jane in Fairham comes on board to say, I was so excited to hear my email read out yesterday and I'm very happy to share what happened next. So this is Jane who went along to the careers advice service and was asked about her hobbies and the suggestion was that she might want to think of training

as a scene of crime photographer. I would add that at the time to take up her career as a scene of crime photographer I would have had to join the police. At five foot tall and a touch chubby I didn't meet the brief. Jane and I would have been counted out on the same criteria. Well, sorry, I don't want to say you're chubby. Despite my... So I'm five foot one and a half. Okay. Despite... God, it five foot one and a half. Okay. Despite... God, is that working with a child style?

Yes, I'm like the audio equivalent to Shirley Timm. I met Thor a herd once in her dotage. Oh. Gee, we were... There's a name I haven't heard for a long time. We were in the same dressing room together for... I can't remember what. I think I was doing Just a minute or something like that

anyway um she was just extraordinary because she had reached that point in her life where and she was I mean she was in her final years where she just needed to tell everybody everything that she had done so she just sat in the dressing room and literally just went I'm Thor heard and then would just tell you all these things a dame wasn't she she? Yes, how old she was, how tall she was, what she had done most recently, all of the kings and queens that she had met. It was just incredible. Let's leave that here. She was, in her later life, was notable for that Alan Bennett monologue, wasn't she?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, she was brilliant. Sometimes if you've sort of lived a long time you might feel that you just have to remind people of who you are. Oh no, totally and she was in that phase. Yeah. She was absolutely in that phase and so I did the right thing. You know, I sat at her feet and very much listened to her and she didn't ask me anything about me. So it's, I'm just saying, it's something I've got used to, Jane.

Despite my uninspired start and never really knowing what I wanted to do, this is back with Jane and Farum. I've managed to have an interesting working life, including training as a nurse in the Royal Navy. We'd like to hear some stories from that, please. Working in an STD clinic in London. We'd definitely like to hear those stories. And spending a year working and travelling in Australia.

I've recently retired after a long career in administration for the NHS. The pay was never great but the job satisfaction and teamwork were always brilliant. I am a keen viewer of crime scene drama. Did I miss my true calling? Well Jane, it's never too late. In your third age why not think about embarking on a new career as a scene of crime photographer. It is one of those strange things isn't it it's a bit like the huge popularity of criminology degrees which definitely have the impact of this extraordinary glut of crime drama has been the popularity of courses like that but I wonder how many people come out of those courses

and do actually want to devote their life to the study of the very darkest side of life. Because a scene of crime photographer is actually going to witness and have to photograph the most grotesque things. But it's portrayed as quite a kind of glamorous thing to do, isn't it, in the dramas. I mean you don't see anybody just having to unzip their white thingamajiggy whatsit and just rush outside and vomit and then get themselves to some post-traumatic

therapy clinics as soon as possible. You're right, you never see that aspect of their life, do you? You do wonder what it's like to be that person who's there very early on. I think it'd be terrible. And sees things that presumably you can never unsee. I mean, you're right. A really tough job actually. This is a cheerier one from Lawson.

I'm getting in touch for the first time, although I have been listening since the start. That was so fast. That was very good. It was actually fastest finger first. I think you beat Neve. Anthony was good though. Well you were a suit and he's a mad, he's a bloke. This is from Lawson, she says I hope I get the jingle. Well you've got it. Lawson goes on to say that they're blind and they love audiobooks and Lawson says I've say that they're blind and they love audio books. And Lawson says, I've just finished the latest Ruth Jones. This is the one I'm listening to now. And I really enjoyed it. I thought her Scottish accent was so good and I was impressed. Believe me, this is high praise from a 70 year old Scots woman who can be completely turned off

by bad accents in talking books. Lawson, really glad that you agree with me. I mean, I'm not an expert on Scottish accents, despite the incredibly high level of Scottish DNA that my sister has, as I may have referenced before. I haven't had my own DNA tested. One would assume it would be about the same. But I don't think I'm qualified to judge a good Scottish accent. You are, and you thought Ruth could really pull it off. I'm at the point in the book where one of the characters is reported to have Welsh heritage so I wonder whether she might be required to go Welsh later on in the audiobook but I've got about another eight and a half hours to go so I don't know. It is amazing because I think

it's a real skill reading an audiobook and even great writers are no good at necessarily reading their own work always but I mean Ruth Jones doesn't need any more praise from me so she won't get any. I think I'm not alone in not being able to listen to any of the Lee Child audiobooks because for many of us the accent was just wrong and and those are... Well who did it? I don't think it was anyone particularly famous. I think it was an American voiceover artiste, but I might be wrong. Rosie might be able to just quickly check on that, if that's all right. But they're such perfect books to be recorded as audiobooks,

because the sentences are very short and very impactful. The story moves on a pace. The descriptions, I really love the descriptions of these, you know, midwest dustbowl towns that Lee Childs always writes about. But it just didn't work. I just couldn't listen to them at all. Just had to switch it off. What's his name? Jack Reacher? Yes.

Does he have a bum? How does he carry his bits around? He's famous for not carrying bits around at all, so he just travels with the shirt on his back. He's that kind of a guy. But it's not possible, is it? Well it is possible because it's fiction, Jane. It's fiction. So sometimes I think he'll have a very very small rucksack, but usually he just turns up in a military surplus store in about chapter two and you find him buying some what Owen Verramy described as slacks in America but actually Jack Reich doesn't wear slacks so he'll wear some kind of sub-combat gear. Right I'm picturing a man in a is it Eric Trump golf ill-fitting golf slack but it's

not that. No it's not that. No it'd be much more kind of Millets based. Oh, heavily pocketed. The entire autumn wear collection from Millets. Now, this one is entitled... Who was it? Jeff Harding. It does do a lot of audiobooks. Yeah. So I'm sorry, Jeff, because I'm sure you're absolutely lovely and very talented,

but when you're expecting a certain voice and you don't get it, you just can't go there. I'm available if Lee Charles wants me. I'd like to hear you reading out a sort of... Jack Beecher! No, not Jack Beecher! You see, that's the problem. What would you be best suited to? I don't know, please, I don't know.

A thrilling romance. A thrilling romance? A thrilling romance. Set in either Basingstoke or Bromley. Okay, well, I mean, they're sexy towns. Jeff Harding's award-winning. Oh, is he? Is he award-winning? Well, so are we.

Yeah, I don't need any more wards. This one comes in from Liffey Williams, who says, nearly quilt time fee. I just wanted to write and say hello. Fees on my mind as I pack my bags for a quick trip from Brighton to Birmingham to see the Festival of Quilts in the NEC. I'm hoping to get there on Saturday and it would be lovely if I bump into anybody. Just come and say hello. If you can see me, it's always difficult in a crowd. A good friend took me last year and I was frankly mind-boggled at the size and international scale of the show as well as the phenomenal artistry on display in so many

hundreds of quilts. Since I was 11 I've been making my own traditional patchwork quilt, hence my interest in them now. My maternal granny showed me the process and started me off on my first few hexagons and over the years the patchwork has grown slowly bit by bit, mostly during summer holidays when I had time to lose myself in the stitching and could relax a bit. It includes a lot of fabric that has personal significance to me like my old school uniform shirt, off cuts from the kitchen curtains, my dad's work shirts and later on fabric from my wedding dress and odd bits of fabric from my children's favourite clothes. It's a real heirloom piece and I'm very proud of it. Liffey attaches

a picture with her once six-year-old daughter in front of part of the quilt and it is beautiful, really really beautiful Liffey. The damn thing she says still isn't finished. And maybe it never will be. Maybe it shouldn't be, in a way. But isn't that lovely to record all of your life in bits of fabric that would otherwise just be chucked in the bin? Is it an age thing that, as you get older, you really start to appreciate colour combinations and there's something about the texture of quilts. I do I do honestly I find my eyes drawn to them all the time now. I'm not sure it's an aging thing. I never used to be interested in that sort of thing at all. I didn't notice it. Maybe that's just because you had other

interests occupying you because if you think of the you know you know that you've got an artistic child if they can do something of the, you know, you know that you've got an artistic child, if they can do something with colour, you know, it seems to be right there from the get-go in the way that they arrange their toys, or the colours that they pick out when they're colouring in to go next to each other, you know, it's really noticeable if you've got a kid who has that kind of visual acumen. But your acumen is words, isn't it? So maybe it's just one of those things that words have occupied you more up until now. Or maybe something's changed with your eyesight from the last time you went for a test. I seem to be constantly having tests for every part of my body these days. I'm sure of it. I'm not due for new specs, no.

I just wanted to read this from Helen Louise, who's got 12 cats V. By the way, shout out to Big D, Dora, who this morning chased a fox out of our garden. Not once, but twice before 8am. Oh my god, can I borrow her? She is, I have to say, old Dora, she's a funny little thing, but she is not timid when she sees a fox in the garden she's out there chases it off and it didn't go the first time so she had to go again and deal with it. Brilliant. And when she came back in she was she had all her fur standing right up but she it was very sweet the rare moment of connection

between us she looked to me as if to say how about that notice it please so I did say to her Dora that was that was incredible. Well done. And she, she had a couple of little treats. You know, just a few. Nice. Yeah. I read this from Helen Louise because she says that she's emailed us ten times and she's never got read out. Sorry, we haven't got a jingle for that. To make matters worse, Emma Barnett read both of her emails to Woman's House. She's wounding.

That's appalling. Very, very wounding. Okay, well, maybe Emma didn't have as many to choose from as we have. No, Helen, thank you. Thank you for being there. Thank you for being persistent. She's very angry that the playlist has closed. That's because Rosie's just had

a belly full of adding tracks to it. But I hope you enjoy what is there already, Helen, over the weekend. Well, and also, doesn't Helen have a very good point about, actually, sometimes it is difficult to find it. Once you've found it, it'll keep coming up on your Spotify. But if you want to find it in the first place, you've got to type in Offer with Jane and Fee and then tap on it. Is that right, Rosie? Yes, it is. Also, the link is on the description of the podcast. Yes. Now, I tried that link myself actually when he first put it up and I couldn't get it to work.

I will try again and come back to you. Yeah. But sometimes I think that's me not you, if you know what I mean. Well, I mean often it's me not you. So do keep going. If you just type in on the general search, don't go into podcasts, go into music, and on the general search type in Off Air with Jane and Fete and the playlist should come up. It is a thing of wonder and Rosie did put in a shift adding every single suggestion that had come thus far and that's kind of why we're going to rest it for a while. Do you think it needs a warning? Include show tunes?

I think it does. But I tell you what I think we should be grateful it doesn't include any found sound. What's that? Found sound. So found sound was what the hipsters started calling sound effects. You and I would just have called them sound effects. But there was a thing that happened about, I'd say, 15 years ago in the audio world where people suddenly got really interested in audio. Because we'd always been the slightly, oh, I don't know, the kind of the cousin who wasn't always invited to the family party in radio. It was definitely radios over there for

kind of the people who can't quite make it in any other area of show business. But if you worked in radio you were always passionate about sounds weren't you and about the spoken word and about how music mixes in and everything that comes through your ears. And I do remember along came just a really, really new bandwagon of people who thought they'd invented the wheel. And it was because of the change in our technology.

So suddenly we could all be listening to radio or audio in a very intimate way in our ears. You know, it wasn't a transistor radio, you know, the other side of the bed or in the car and it did do something to sound so people started experimenting with sound and I went to an evening which was listening to audio in darkness, it was in East London, and we were treated to about half an hour of found sound, which was a tap dripping, or the rustle of the trees. And I mean it was actually lovely, it was weirdly lovely because you were listening to very kind of intricate moments of sound in a great big

room with other people, which is odd because you don't tend to listen to audio in public before in darkness. So it had an element of woo about it that was nice, but it was also so far up its own arse, the hemorrhoid cream would never have reached it. I was going to say, did you have some sort of kimchi cocktail afterwards? Oh, practically. But I think at our previous employer, I mean, I think there was a whole programme, wasn't there,

that was at one stage dedicated to found sound. You can't say it any other way, it just sounds like a complete pile. Some playlist information coming in from Rosie. Could you speak into the front of your microphone please? I'm sorry. That's much better, thank you. There we are. Well done, P.

If you are listening to the podcast on the Spotify app, the link will work. If you are listening to the podcast on the Apple podcast app, the link will work if you are listening to the podcast on the Apple podcast app the link will work brilliant if you are listening on the Times Radio app it does not work brilliant that is the explanation we needed and of course because I am also on message Mandy I was listening on the Times Radio app and that's why it won't work okay apologies I will look to fix it okay but otherwise you can just go you can just search Jane and Fee the official podcast and it will come up. Have I gone mad or did sound effects used to be on actual vinyl? So if you needed a dripping tap or the sound of a cowbell...

Oh yes! You'd have to put the needle... So it would have, I don't know, 75 different tracks on vinyl and you would have to pinpoint it. Totally. Wow. Do people really do that? No, so there was. There was a whole library at Broadcasting House at the BBC that contained all of the sound effects and then they moved on to CDs. And actually I've got a couple at home

in what you could call an archive. You could also just call a fireproof box. I kept a couple of the CDs because they were really amazing. So you'd get one that was called Horses. And so it would have horses using all that kind of stuff and it would have heavy breathing. But then it would have the sound of a bridle being put on. It would have the sound of a saddle being slapped over the rump. I mean, just- Listeners to the archers will be familiar with this.

Yes, such intricate little moments in sound and if you're making drama you need all those, you need it to be absolutely right. You can't just whack on the sound of, I don't know what the kind of nearest equivalent of you know leather on an animal would be but you wouldn't get away with it. It has to be really specific. And then an awful lot of the sound effects are made up, aren't they? So, you know, people... there's always a classic one people quote about the archers. I can't remember what it is. The snogging one. Yes, which is actually the sound of... you create it by the sound of somebody

washing their hands with washing up liquid or soap or something. Famously a couple... I say famously, but of course you won't know about this, Sid, was it Sid who had sex in the shower in the Arches? Well I mean you're asking the wrong person. But it's becoming more appealing by the moment, carry on. I think it's one of those activities you think it's going to be more fun than it actually turns out to be. It depends on the logistics. Right, let's move on and talk about parental spending.

I just wanted to mention this from Anonymous. I laugh and agree with much you say, says this correspondent. However, on the issue of inheritance, our correspondent here cannot disagree Morphy. I know, I read this one with interest. The sense parents should provide for their children if they're able to upon their death merely serves to widen the gap between the haves and have-nots. And of course this is a point that was raised by Steph McGovern, wasn't it, when she came on a couple of weeks ago? I thought it was interesting because Steph's idea was that you could, she thinks, she suggested

the notion that you could just leave wealth for one generation beneath you but not any further than that? No, so she suggested that nobody could leave wealth at all and we modified it with the suggestion that maybe it'd be better to just give it to one generation but you can't carry it on and on and on. Right well well Anonymous says, if children anticipate a bequest or are financially supported beyond a minimum amount when they're adults, I believe that provides little incentive to strive and achieve. My estate together with that of my husband is potentially significant. Our adult

daughters, one mine, two step, have enjoyed generous support throughout their lives plus they've been given significant bequests already from grandparents, and I don't believe it's right they should benefit from anything else. I would rather our estate was used for the benefit of people less fortunate than us and our children. Needless to say, none of my friendship group feel the same way. Interesting. Well it is interesting, and I think you've got the almost perfect scenario, haven't you? Because actually you're being generous and compassionate towards other people but you're not going to feel guilty and bad that you haven't been able to provide

something for your kids. So how, you know, I mean that's a, it's actually a lovely situation to be in. Oh yeah. But I think we did have another email from somebody who did really disagree with the notion of leaving anything to your kids at all. And do you know what? A huge motivation for me to come to work is because I would like to create stability for my children.

And I don't want to not have that. And if that's really made me't, it really made me think, you know, is that just me being selfish about the boxes that I want to tick for myself? But I do want them to have a stable life. I don't want them to be, I mean, they would never be so wealthy that they couldn't work. That's not on the cards at all.

But I don't, I would like to be able to help them out just so that they can start something and it would never be any more than that. I mean it just simply won't be. But also I think is the point that you often make, you know, we've just been really, really lucky. I've paid a mortgage for 35 years and it was available to me to start paying a mortgage when I was in my 20s because that gap between what I was earning and the cost of a property in London, which just makes my kids just laugh now, you know, at how cheap it all was.

And it was doable, it was doable, you know, in my twenties and I suppose I just want to feel that I'm giving them some opportunity that otherwise is just completely and utterly unavailable to them. Well do keep this conversation going about money and inheritance and what you... But if they're listening, I'm not buying you a flat, loves, that's not what we're talking about at all. Yeah, you couldn't have made that any clearer. Yeah, I mean I'm really not, there isn't, you know, I'm not in that kind of bracket

at all. I have had both my so-called youngsters back living in the house for various logistical reasons this week. And I'll be honest with you, Fie, you are going to buy them a flat. Yeah, I'm thinking of it. Eleanor just makes this point, I mean she's brief. Pauly is a very specific English word, it's not used in Ireland at all. Right, okay Eleanor, what do you say in Ireland when you're not feeling very well? That's some homework for you. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio, we do have a guest, who is it Fee? Well it is Daisy Goodwin, so she is a TV impresario, she is a writer, she is a purveyor of poetry

and in this instance she is? Well she's the playwright who's come up with a very interesting stage play called By Royal Appointment. What is, well, she's the playwright who's come up with a very interesting stage play called By Royal Appointment. What is it about? Here's Daisy. Now you're here to talk about your play, By Royal Appointment, and it's currently running. Where is it at the moment?

I think it's been in London. Where is it now? It's in Guildford. It was in Richmond. It's now in Guildford, and it'll be there till till Saturday and then it moves to the Lowry Theatre in Salford, Manchester. And you have a starry cast. Sixth to the ninth. Yes, we've got Anne Reid, who at 90 years old is doing seven or is it eight shows a week. I mean that's pretty astonishing. I mean she and she, it's the most incredible performance too. I mean, that's pretty astonishing. I mean, she and wow, it's it's the most incredible performance to I mean,

really worth going to see just for that. She's amazing. And the equally incredible but slightly younger Caroline Quentin playing the Queen's dresser. So that Angela, Angela, can it well, it's not Angela Kelly, but sort of loosely based on Angela Kelly. And, and then we've got the designer played by James Willby and the milliner playing by James Dreyfus. I mean, that's a phenomenal quartet of powerhouses you've got there. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah. I've never I've never written a play before. So it's all very exciting. Right. I've never written a play before, so it's all very exciting for me. Now you say we need to be very careful about this then. The character that is loosely based on Angela Kelly is not necessarily Angela Kelly.

You do say, I know that you haven't met Angela Kelly and Angela Kelly will be an interview I'd love to do. I'm sure you'd love to do it as well. Well, I can say that Angela Kelly has seen the play and loves it. Excellent, right. Well what we need to establish here is that By Royal Appointment is about the late queen Elizabeth II and her outfits and how she sometimes conveyed messages, quite subtle ones, through what she was wearing and also the incredible and increasing influence as the late Queen became slightly more frail of a dresser who most of us believe almost certainly to be based on the real life person of Angela Kelly. So first of all... I don't think we need to be too merely mad about it because Angela has seen the show

and is very happy with it. I mean, it's not, I mean, she really is happy with it. You've established that. I tell you what, ladies, we're worried about legal action. Just as a listener here for a play that's not actually about Angela Kelly, the most astonishing number of mentions for her. Well, anyway, so the play is basically about the secret power of the Queen, which, you know, the most discreet woman in the world, to say what she really thought, which is through her clothes. And, um...

Yeah, I mean, as an individual in her real life, she wasn't that interested in clothes per se, was she? No. Not at all. Not at all. I mean, she was really very happy just wearing a barber and a headscarf. But, you know, wearing outfits was part of the job, costumes is part of the job. And she, in some ways reign where, you know, the clothes mean something. It starts with the investiture of the Prince of Wales in 1969, which is the first time that the

world saw the Queen's knees. Yes, I mean, this was significant. I had a look at that image of what she was wearing that day a little bit earlier. And yes, the dress she's wearing is actually, well, it's relatively short, isn't it? It is, yes. And it was all to do with her kind of wanting, you know, like as the investiture was, it was showing, you know, this is the monarchy. We go back to, you know, before the Norman conquest, but we're also looking forward. And know here's Prince Charles wearing so you know knee britches and stockings and here am I wearing a mini skirt and you know I can move with the times because there'd been a lot of stuff around there saying the Queen was sort of out of touch and the sat the other and so by raising her hemline she was showing that she was, as you know, as she says in the play, am I with it? And that was the notion there.

And it was sensational at the time. I mean, it caused a sensation. And then she has this hilarious hat. Well, I was going to mention that. Yes, I mean, it's sort of visions of Star Trek there. Can you describe it? Well, it looks like a space helmet, as you say, with a sort of gold sequin top. And it's a sort of cross between a Tudor headdress and a space helmet. That's exactly what it

is with a lot of gold sequins and yellow silk. And it's possibly one of the more ludicrous bits of headgear you've ever seen. But it had a sort of, it did, as you say, had a sort of certain Star Trek vibe. And I think, again, that was deliberate. I mean, the point about the Queen's clothes is that nothing is left to chance. No detail is not scrutinised. And, you know, there was whole layers of meaning behind that outfit. Let's go a bit a few decades into the future from the Investiture. I never knew how to say that. And the Queen goes to Ireland. Now this was a hugely significant visit, wasn't it? Tell me about what she wore then. Well, it was a hugely significant because the first time that a monarch, a British monarch, had been to Ireland since, well, for a century or so, I think.

And it was the culmination of a huge histories and centuries of bitterness between the two countries. And of course, the Queen's uncle, great uncle, had been blown up by Mount Bacchaner, had been blown up by the IRA. So there were a personal, there were personal scores for her as well as everything else.

And she absolutely plays a blinder and she wears emerald green, you know, the most shamrocky colour you can imagine. And she's got a bloody great shamrock diamond brooch. And it's, you know, it's basically saying, I'm here, I'm on your side, I've come here to put the past behind us and yeah and there was also the time when she had a think there were

rumors that she'd made a vaguely pro-Brexity comment in private and then she did what? Oh this is hilarious so there was a yes there were about, I think, by Michael Gove that she being pro Brexit. And, you know, what we know the Queen, she was the most discreet person in the world. And she certainly would have said nothing like that to the likes of Michael Gove. So at the state opening of Parliament in 2016, she wears a blue hat that has yellow, that has 12 yellow rosettes on it, which are, as you know, of course, the colors of the European flag. And that I think was a very significant statement

because she wasn't saying I think she wasn't saying I'm pro the European Union. What she was saying is that, you know, you can I you can either believe the people who pretend to know my innermost thoughts, or you can see what I'm doing here, but neither of you will never know what I really think. And in your play, does Anne Reid wear all these incredible outfits? No, but you see them. Because when I wrote the play, because I've never written a play before, I had her changing clothes 25 times and it had to be pointed

out to me that that's actually not possible, that you know there is no such thing as a quick clothes change and so we had to kind of think again but we thought again and so you see the clothes but not necessarily on her although there are occasions where she wears some of them and we've made beautiful replicas of them. One thing Daisy that I do remember about as a young journalist and reporter actually going on royal visits and seeing the queen opening a cider factory in Hereford, that kind of thing,

she had to be conspicuous. And so she actually specialized in incredibly bright colors that actually most of us wouldn't go near, but she understood it was part of her job. Totally. I mean, and I think that's where, you know, Queen, Royal Fashion is a very particular thing, but she, you know, she wore these incredible, as you say, Acid Yellow, Fuchsia, Orange, all these colours that that yes, most of us wouldn't wear because the point is she wanted people to see her and know she was there because there's no point coming out to see the Queen if you can't tell which one she is, you know, she's a little old lady, you know, she needs

to be so bright that you can't miss her. And there were sort of reasons she wore particular colors, like you know, when she goes to China she wears red because that's you know an auspicious colour in China. For her silver jubilee she wore pink because that's what she'd worn to her grandfather's silver jubilee and you know there was a whole rumour about how she wore blue to the weddings of her three eldest children and then didn't wear blue to Prince Edward's wedding because everyone said that blue had bought them all. Right, and he's still happily married. So there you go. Amazing. There you go. And just very briefly, her clothes on the whole were designed by men for a very long

time. I mean, some really notable couturiers, the likes of Norman Hartnell. Oh dear, have we lost it? Sorry, I'm back. You're back. You're back. Yeah. I lost you for a second. Tell us who designed these incredible clothes that the Queen was wearing. Well, there was Norman Hartnell to begin with, who worked for her mother,

and he was very feminine. Then Hardy Amis comes into play, and he's more tailored, he's all about the line. And then finally, the person that takes over is in fact Angela Kelly, who designs the outfits from basically in this century. And what's interesting about her is that I think she is approaching the Queen's Clothes from the basis of designing for the Queen as a woman, not just as a Queen. And I think she did a remarkably good job. But we have to acknowledge that Angela Kelly got exceptionally close to the Queen, the late Queen, particularly in the last couple of years of her life. And I think she'd been led to expect that she'd be allowed to stay on the Royal Estate in a property there. And that didn't happen, did it? No, it didn't. I mean, again, I haven't spoken to Angela about that. So I don't know the true details. But I do know that I do think that she thought she might be allowed to stay on. But it

is a classic thing that if you're the Queen, you know the favorite when a new regime comes in you go from being the most important person in court. So nothing and that I that was the thing that made me think this. There's a drama in this, but you know you can have all this now that the ear of the Queen you can be absolutely at her side 24

7 and then you know she dies and you're at Nerea. Daisy, thank you very much. I think it's a really, really interesting idea for the play which is called By Royal Appointment and you can see it in Salford in a couple of days' time. That was Daisy Goodwin. By Royal Appointment is touring right now until I think the 9th of August. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure somebody will. Thank you very much for listening this week and for taking part. We've had some interesting emails and thoughtful ones. We've had

brilliant emails, really really brilliant. So thank you for all of those. You can always send stuff to us anonymously and you can always send pictures to us even though it's radio. All of these things really tickle our fancy. Jane and Fee at Times. I've suddenly forgotten it. It's Times. Radio. Thank you. Times radio is Britain's what exactly Fee? It's Britain's fastest growing speech network. Yeah, so get on that chatty train and start listening. Have a good couple of days. We'll be back next week. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand

exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.