Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Is ANYBODY in this country listening?! (with Georgie Wileman)

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

Fi joins Jane from a top-secret bunker today, joined by a very leggy special guest: Nancy the greyhound. They contemplate exactly what they would ask the "Great Orange Blimp" if given the chance. Plus, Fi speaks to BAFTA-winning filmmaker Georgie Wileman about her powerful short film, This is Endometriosis. Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQ If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producers: Hannah Quinn and Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Thursday's off-air with Jane and Feet. A Fee is joining us from a secret location. I mean, I think listeners could tell you were a bit poorly yesterday. Oh, the annoying thing is, you join me from the bunker of Dalston. Yes. Is that actually I feel fine, but I just sound terrible. And I've just got this cough that once I start coughing, I just can't stop coughing. And obviously, for live radio, that's just horrendous.

So there were a couple of moments on the line. show. I don't know whether you want to do your own message, Mandy, at this point. Get the Times Radio app. It's completely free. And we're live on air between two o'clock and four Monday to Thursday discussing a dizzying range of topics at the moment. Obviously, plenty of geopolitics. But also, notably, we are still talking about cats. And there's an item on the live show today about apparently cats like you more than we think. So if you haven't ever joined us live on the radio, please do get the Times Radio app. It won't cost you a penny. And then you get access to a world of audio wonder. Back to you, Fee.

Lovely. Do you know what? That was massive on message, Mandy. That was absolutely brilliant. So there were a couple of times yesterday where I did think I'm not going to get to the end of this sentence. And in particular, with Lord Darrick, who we were talking to former UK ambassadors to the US, it's such serious stuff. Nobody wants to, you know, hear me basically try and exorcise my lungs halfway through an interview.

So you do join me from home. Oh, look, Nancy's coming. That's nice. Hello, Nancy. Hello, Nancy. Click, click, click. Just have a quick hello. Look. There's she, hang on a second. I'm showing Jane, dear listeners. It's not going to be very much used to you.

Nancy, but Nancy, I can see almost all of her, except her head. Nancy. Hello, oh yes, hello, Nancy. There you go. That's lovely. She said her, hello. Just for showing me her Nancy, and it is lovely.

No, she is lovely. She is lovely. She is such a beautiful dog. Actually, one of my mates' dogs had to be put down. this week. And I don't think... Oh, I'm sorry. This is a friend of mine.

I don't think she listens. And she was away. So it actually went back to a topic that we've been discussing. But anyway, the poor dog was elderly, certainly of an age, and had to be put down this week. Actually, the same vets where they

took care of my mittens some years ago. But she said it was lovely and beautifully handled. Okay, but how did she know that if she wasn't around? You actually had to take her in? Oh, no, no. She did take her in

when she got back from her trip. but it was just she became quite unwell while my friend was away. So anyway, it's just sad, isn't it? But, you know, these things have to be done. And I gather it was handled beautifully. Well, that's very good. Now, Elizabeth was listening yesterday, Jane. She says, you both said that you'd have a word with Donald Trump,

but what would you say to Trump? And weirdly, Elizabeth, after we'd finished the podcast yesterday, I did think about that question quite a lot. You know, if Jane and I were given the opportunity to interview the Great Big Orange Blimp, you know, how would we question him? Because there are so many things that we'd like to ask him. Elizabeth says, I'm interested in what you'd say in a professional capacity, what questions you would ask as serious, highly experienced news journalists. And then what would you say if he had his mouth taped shut so he couldn't interrupt? Because Elizabeth would start with, you look ridiculous, you silly man, which I think would be quite a nice opener anyway.

But what would you ask him? At the moment, I mean, it's such a good point. And my brain fizzes with the possibilities. I think I really, at the moment, I just need to know if there is a plan for Iran and if so, what is it? And can he please offer assurances that this isn't going to end in some kind of global nightmare that will actually impact every single resident of planet Earth?

Yeah. And at the moment, there aren't any guarantees, are there? No, not at all. And, you know, it is the question that definitely needs answering. I mean, you just know that what you'll get back would be bluster. That's the problem, isn't it? Because you can ask a straightforward question of the man, but you just don't get a straightforward answer.

Do you know, I've got to be honest, over the last couple of days it's dawned on me that possibly the human being more repellent to me than Donald Trump is Pete Hegseth. I cannot bear that man. His vile use of the English language. The things he says, he is such a low-grade, ghastly pratt. I cannot believe he's been put into a role like that. I guess we all know there are a multitude of reasons why he suits the Trump agenda.

But I cannot wait for him to chunter into the bin of history forever and never re-emerge. Anyway, maybe he's got... language. I doubt you. It's so inflammatory, isn't it? Yeah. When, you know, he was talking about the bombardment of Iran and he basically said, you know, you're all toast, which is the kind of thing, you know, that you might hear a teenager, you know, shouting when they're on call a duty. But in the real world, on the massive stage when you're talking about huge loss of life, it's just an extraordinarily undignified thing to say. So I'd agree with you about that. Do you know what, Elizabeth, just back to your question about opening questions, you know, the imperative at the moment would be to ask about the Middle East.

But also I would ask President Trump what he would say to the two blocs who are sitting in a bar, somewhere on Main Street, somewhere in Detroit, who he promised at both of the elections that he won, he was going to serve better. So their children were going to have a plethora of jobs across the, Rust Bowl to choose from. All of the economics within a family situation were going to be better. America was going to be put first. There weren't going to be any forever wars. I would ask Trump what he had say to those two men at the moment, who I can't think would be

anything other than a little bit disappointed as to the way that things have turned out. And you just don't, I don't know, there was quite a lot of taking apart and fact-checking of his state of the union address, wasn't there? And, you know, he just makes up these figures about how much better everybody in America is under him. And then you look at what's happened in the markets recently. You just think that, you know, the two things just don't add up, do they, Jane? They just don't add up. I mean, it's just worth saying that more Epstein files are due to be released tomorrow, apparently. So we'll keep an eye on that. There's a very moving piece. I don't know if you've had the chance to read it for you on The Times.com by Richard Spencer, who's been to the border between

or has spoken to people who've been to the border between Iran and Turkey. And what really struck me, and it made me perhaps really think about this, it wasn't just people trying to get out of Iran. It was men who'd been working in Turkey, trying to get back into Iran to be with their families at this time. And you just realize how many individual, millions of lives have been impacted by this. And not in a good way. People are frightened, people are scared,

of course they are and they're running out of money and there's absolutely no sign in Iran of regime change because the people there are petrified and the goons of the Ayatollah's regime are still on the streets. But anyway, there we go.

Let's, should we just hope for a, I don't know, some, well actually, what can we hope for over the course of the weekend? I actually don't know, I'm afraid. Well, I mean, we could hope, you know, we could we could hope that regime change does happen, that all of those people in Iran who would like to be living a freer life and like to have more say in their own destiny do manage to coalesce without losing their lives, courtesy of the Revolutionary Guard, and, you know, that actually good prevails. Because in no way you and I saying that the status quo that existed in Iran was a decent thing.

So we could hope for that. I know that lots of you, and actually Elizabeth ended her lovely email by asking us whether we've got funnier. And it could quite possibly be Elizabeth, that the world has just got less funny. And so just us being normal appears to be funnier. But I know that lots of people listen to the podcast for a little bit of light relief.

And we definitely have that in our locker as well, don't we? I hope so. I hope we can offer light relief. I really do. But I'm not sure whether this is light relief exactly, but it's very much a slice of life. And it's Kate in Cheltenham, who's currently staying in Birmingham.

And she says, You keep me sane and you make me laugh. Well, there you go. I swear you're leading parallel lives to me. I'm a long-time listener. I often want to write, but I've never got round to it. I went to nine different schools and resented my parents hugely for it,

but I'm trying to let that go. Then I was a teacher and a head for 35 years. And yes, our lives are governed by half-terms and terminally breaks. It's weird. But the real reason I'm writing is that I'm currently spending half of my week away from home, caring for my elderly mum who has Alzheimer's. I'm just starting week two of my one week shift looking after mum, as my sister due to take over, is currently stuck in Sri Lanka,

oh, I see, and can't get home, thanks to all the awful things going on in the world. Well, there you go. There's someone else impacted by all this. Whilst I was tucked up in bed last night at Mum's house and listening to you, I was aware that one of my little dogs curled up next to me on the bed was unfortunately retching. Now, there is nothing like the sound of a dog puking to get you out of bed in a hurry. Unfortunately, I was too late, and by the time I'd reached her,

she'd chucked up the contents of her tea all over the cream carpet in mum's spare bedroom. Mortified, I was cleaning it at five this morning, making it worse, and was on the verge of Googling new rugs, when your lovely guest, Nancy Bertwistle, only started talking about cleaning carpets and offered a solution to my very, problem. I couldn't believe that yet again we're on the same page. I felt compelled to write and thank

you for your friendly banter and useful household hints. The stain on the carpet is currently covered over with a rug. Not sure if I'll own up and hopefully mum won't notice. Kate, lots of love to you, your mum, your dog and your sister. I hope she can get back and I hope she can take her turn looking after your mum but I appreciate your sister can't help it. So I'm really sorry. And We did hear, by the way, Fee, that the clip, the social's clip of Nancy Burtwistle, I don't know whether it's the one about the stain or one about something else, has been viewed over 250,000 times. Well, we had a couple of messages when we were talking to Nancy on air from,

and I have to say, it was gentlemen who were a little bit, they weren't having their fancies tickled by Nancy, were they? Because they very much wanted to stay with the important news of the day. And one of them did say, why wasting time on someone talking about pastries and cleaning? And we should definitely try and track that listener down and send him that statistic. Yes. Because, you know, household stains, they're a very important thing. They don't go away on their own.

And Nancy is here to help. So I'm very glad that she has. Sorry, yeah, not your dog. No, but Nancy Birkworth. We don't want that confusion again. No, we don't want that confusion again. And actually the number of items of soft furnishings that I've had to throw out because of pet damage, I'm very grateful to Nancy Bertwistle for all of her recommendations of how to try and clean them.

And in fact, we helped out one of our colleagues, didn't we? We had a very personal query about a tufted stair carpet and some vomit. So we're just so here for you. We're here for everybody. There's another one from Helen, which is a bit spooky to. It's entitled, As Christmas Draws Close. which I know will please you, Jane. A very triggering email. Thank you, Helen.

It goes like this. Halloween is nearly upon us. So it makes perfect sense that I had a spooky listening experience yesterday. I'm behind with Offair and I'm still listening to the 2025 versions of you. So yesterday was my birthday and the episode set to play after The Archers. Yes. Was the one on Jane's birthday that started with what I remember as Les Ross's birthday jingle. I couldn't believe it.

What was Les Ross's birthday? It was that. Les Ross was a great Birmingham-based breakfast host on the station BRMB. And do you know, I've got particular fondness for Les Ross. I didn't know him personally, but he was once very kind to me,

just to pleasant. And I just thought, well, that's really pleasant. And I've never forgotten it. And just one of those things. Anyway, I don't know whether he's still around, but he was a very good and very popular and much-love broadcaster. Excellent.

Helen continues, I don't know how you managed to pull that off. Presumably Eve is a witch of some kind, but I enjoyed it very much. Also, your 2025 versions of yourself say quite often that you're going to do more live shows in 2026. I'm very keen to see you live and wondered if you tell me how I can find out about this year's live performances. If you could let me know via an old episode, just like you wish me happy birthday, that would be great. Evil know how, no doubt. Now that's quite time travelling, confusing, isn't it? It is.

But we don't yet have the exact dates, Helen, for our live shows, but we're going to do three at the end of this year, three at the beginning of next year. They're all going to be outside London. And we will keep you posted just as soon as we've booked the venues. Yeah, and we need to say, we'll let you know. This is in association with the times. There won't be, you won't be able to escape information about these events,

even if you wanted to. So rest assured, okay, don't worry about it. Let's go to Sydney and Jane, who says, Jane from Sydney here, the Industrial Revolution, this was about after you were wondering what was going to happen to all the people who are going to lose their jobs because of AI and all kinds of modernisation fee, Jane says the Industrial Revolution in the late 1700s to mid-1800s in Britain led to urban overcrowding, more poverty and a huge rising crime. Not enough room in the jails and nowhere to send the convicts. They used to be shipped off to America before 1776. It led to over 160,000 metamorphosis. metaphorical delivery drivers from the past being shipped off where else but down under. We'll brace ourselves for the next wave. Thanks for the heads up, says Jane.

But of course, Jane, I suppose there's every chance that you are descended from one of those individuals unless you've only moved to Australia relatively recently. But let us know whether you might be one of the great, great, great, great, great, grandchildren of somebody who let, I mean, we might must never forget how cruel this was. People used to get sent to Australia for knocking a loaf, didn't they? Yeah. Beyond, I mean, it's beyond cruel, bloody awful, really. Terrible. Yes, it is.

And also, you know, the legend that then carries on. You know, so we are still talking about it four generations later, assuming that everybody was a criminal who went. And, you know, an awful lot of them weren't. And, you know, there were a lot of people who were sent there who, you know, now would say either they shouldn't have been in jail or it was a miscarriage of justice, Jane. So Barbara is in the house.

Hello, Barbara. Disinfectant Nostalgia is the title of Barbara's email. I bought the M&S disinfectant you like. I like the smell and used it in the mop bucket. It reminds me of something, but I can't locate that. It's a stirring feeling of nostalgia. I'm wondering if it's a chemical doppelganger. Now Nancy Birkwistle wouldn't like this, would she?

No. For a fragrance from childhood or adolescence that is common to us as 50, 60-something women, and that's why we like it. A shampoo, a perfume, I wish I could remember. Well, do you know what, Barbara, it does have, it's got top notes of Ballydas. That's why I think I like it. And I say that because my lovely sister, she bought me for my birthday present, some scented products for the house.

It's quite funny, actually, Jane. Nearly everybody gave me centred products for the house. What's that trying to tell? What's the message? I'm not going to say anything. I'm really not. Yeah, the house just smells of animals. Well, can I ask?

Yeah, no, it does. No, it does. I mean, you know, it's been a long winter. It's been really wet, so we haven't been able to open the windows. And we've got a big dog and three cats in here. So, I mean, I'm sure it does smell a little bit. I'm sorry to anyone who's come round recently. Is it simply inevitable that if you have a dog in the house and, in my case, a litter tray,

that there is going to be just a pong that people will notice as soon as they walk through the door? Totally. And I think that you and I, as, you know, as people who live in a little. our houses most of the time we become aured to it we don't notice it but other people when they come in definitely do and so my sister gave me some products that definitely do smell of baddy us because we used to laugh about baddie dust as well because it was just so it's just so glamorous well remind us of the special slogan what was it they said things happen after a baddydas bath yeah i go to sleep but obviously not everybody does we just we we just could not wait to become

adult to find out what that was. But now my house is smelling a little bit, pine-scented and whatever. So I think that the M&S disinfectant has the same kind of ring to it. So you're right, Barbara. It's an olifactory memory. We're still in Sydney, this time with Karen, who says Jane, Fee and Hannah in Eve's absence. I listened with interest to the discussion about the variety of flavours consumers are now offered in their hot cross bond department. Salted caramel, everyone. or anyone, no, not for me. This discussion was prompted by a listener you'd had in Brisbane who'd spotted some marketing material from one of our Australian supermarkets.

Jane then commented that the flavoured hot cross bun trend has made it all the way to Australia, however. A quick online search confirmed that flavoured varieties of hot cross buns beyond the traditional spiced fruit version were first widely introduced and commercialised in Australia. So please blame your Antipodean friends for these additions. to Easter Culinary Fair. Vegemite and cheese-flavoured hot cross bun anyone?

Oh, surely not. She also adds the PS. Australians also invented Wi-Fi, cochlear implants, and the Black Box flight recorder, so it's not all bad. No, it's certainly not. I think those are incredible contributions

to the modern world, aren't they? Did they really invent Wi-Fi? Well, I mean, who are we to doubt it? I don't know. I thought that was British. Really? Well, it wasn't it, Tim Berners-Lee, and he invented the internet, so, oh, maybe Wi-Fi, I don't know. Yeah, but that wouldn't be Wi-Fi, would it?

No, I suppose. He just invented a method of, I mean, it was originally used by the military, wasn't it, of sending messages that they believed wouldn't be intercepted in the same way that maybe telephone calls could be and stuff. Right. So it wasn't Wi-Fi. I mean, in a way, because you and I've struggled with Wi-Fi. Yes. Maybe we're not as big as fans. Anyway, just give me a plug any day now.

Just give me a plug any day. And can I just harp back to an email from ages ago from Tanya, who wanted to draw our attention to an extraordinary book that she had grazed across by Myron Gaines. It's called Why Women Deserve Less. Now, have you come across this guy, Jay? No, tell me. What's this? Okay.

Well, he has got a kind of manifesto, which is that men are being very, very hard done by it now in the world. Obviously, he's not the only guy who's saying that. He's got a hugely successful podcast, and he's got a couple of books. The latest, I think, is why women deserve less to or something. There's a kind of follow-up thing. This is how it's described.

Every man alive today faces a paradox. Your hardwired biological program is screaming at you to get girls, get laid, and inevitably start a family. However, today's women could not be less interested in today's men. In times past, this wasn't the case. Men and women needed each other and as a consequence would team up to form families, families that would not only provide love, purpose and meaning in life, but would be the foundation that all of society and civilization was built upon

that the perfect political and economic storm has formed that has liberated women from men, making it so women no longer need men to survive. So that's the basis of the book. Why women deserve less merely makes the end. argument for this to stop. It highlights the way in which women are benefiting unfairly at nearly every man's expense. So I'm not going to read any more because there will be a tone in my voice that would upset Myron. But I am going to buy the book, so nobody else has to. And I'm just going to delve into it a little bit. Because Tonya also sent some of the reviews and there are

2,000 four-star reviews. I mean, it's a huge movement, isn't it? Oh, yeah. You know, kind of reclaim the territory. Let's be honest. I think if I I were a man, I'd probably, I'd certainly read the book and I might well agree with it. Fair enough. If I were a man, if I were a man who did feel that things were somewhat against me, because there's no denying that women don't need a man in the same way as they certainly did a century ago. But would you genuinely be a man who then thought that women deserved less? No, no, well, I'd like to think I wouldn't be. But I understand if I'm a vulnerable, perhaps not especially brainy man, I could be drawn to that movement.

Okay. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yes. Well, I'm very interested in this whole topic. So I'm going to read some of the book. But some of the reviews are absolutely priceless. And just this one, which came up on Amazon. It's up on Amazon.

It's a red pill enthusiast. And that's one of the kind of in-cell terms, isn't it? This is exactly what I need to reaffirm my belief that women indeed do deserve less and are here only to serve us men for our desires and needs. Women deserve less. No, they deserve nothing. Love you, mum. Oh, yeah. I know. I know. So let's talk about that, because we'd be wrong to ignore it. And I do know what you mean. And, you know, we have an awful lot of conversations in the household about how the younger generation of boys versus girls is, you know, working things out for themselves. And it's also so true, Jane, that, you know,

in school, you know, girls, they can develop their emotional intelligence maybe a little bit sooner. I think that's, you know, that's almost kind of proven. They've got bonds of friendship that I think can appear to be incredibly intimidating to an awful lot of boys. And they end up, and they still do, don't they? They're getting better results. So, you know, the idea that, you know, women are faring very badly, I think quite often to a younger man can just seem to be not what they're witnessing on a daily basis. And, you know, hence that leap into a place where somebody, like the tates of this world,

are telling them that, you know, they're actually, they can be in control and in charge and feel good about themselves. You can completely understand why that is an appealing leap to make. But I'm interested in what Myron Gaines is writing about because he's not trying to find a sensible middle ground, is he? I believe he is, yeah. He's not trying to find a middle ground where we could all work it out together. You know, he is trying to go to a place, you know, where women are a really kind of trodden upon again and I do find that a little bit worrying Jane

Yeah So yeah Let's talk about it some more Okay I should say that you were going to be here as well But you're not But we were both going to talk to the great Times journalist Helen Rombolo About some of her articles about porn

But because you're not here I'm going to do it But I know we've already spoken about What you'd like me to ask her And we're going to put that out tomorrow As a Friday bonus episode So that's Helen Rombolo tomorrow as a Friday bonus here on Offair and we need to say, Fie, what's happening on Monday?

What is happening on Monday, Jane? It's the visualised episode of Offer. Oh gosh. Oh gosh, yes, sorry. People are going to be able to watch us do Off Air on Monday on the YouTube. So the one that we did last Monday was just a pilot. So we did it, didn't we? But it didn't go out into the world. But we're assured that the studio is ready.

We've got a lovely fire. already on the go down there. It's in the bowels of the building and you'll be able to look at it yourselves and let us know what you think about the decor after you've watched Monday's episode. So I think I'm now quite looking forward to it because I enjoy doing the other one.

So we'll see how it goes. Still a little bit in the experimental stages but let's give it a go on Monday. Yes, let's. Do you and I need to have some kind of code that we can use so we don't turn up wearing exactly the same outfits? No, I often at work we do.

I know. We just look comical. Well, we do, but that's fine. Is it okay? Oh, I don't know. I think it's all right. I think we should, I think we should try and stand apart a little bit.

We've had an interesting email from Penny. Let's just check the Penny isn't also in Australia. Oh my God, she is. Anybody in this country listening. Hello. Hello. Hello, Hartfordshire. We've never heard from anyone in Hertfordshire.

We haven't. I don't, let's think, can you name a town in Hertfordshire? No, but isn't that place where you were, no, I'm sure I can, isn't that place that you were on the train and you saw a castle, isn't that in Hertfordshire? Birkenstead. Burkhamsted, is that in Hertfordshire? I don't know. Where's that?

Oh, no, I don't think. Let's not go. Let's bring, let's go back to Penny. Yes, that's. It says here, I had off air on in the car on a recent road trip from Fremantle to Denmark. That's the Western Australian. a town, not the country. I mean, that just sounds like... I do let us know more about what that road trip consisted of, because Fremantle all the way to Denmark sounds like a trip to me, Penny.

It really does. Anyway, the subject of matching bras and pants came up. I loudly expressed my long-held opinion that only desperate or very insecure women bother with this bizarre practice. I've always maintained that if a man gets down to the underwear stage and he's put off by a lack of colour coordination, it would be a red flag. I would assume he's either gay or or straight, but just not that into me. As I turned to my husband for agreement, I caught a slightly wistful look in his eyes. Ah, okay.

Well, Penny, okay, Penny, I'm going to take this head on because I feel that part of that has been named at me. I'm not putting on matching underwear to please a man. I'm genuinely putting it on to please myself. There we are, Penny. But, I mean, Penny does note that, I mean, we'll never know quite what lies behind her husband's slightly wistful look. That was really interesting. Thank you, Penny. I like the PS too.

And we're allowed to say this because we can say anything on this podcast. She says, I feel the same way about pubic hair. If a man was put off by my uncoordinated pubes, I would treat this as another massive red flag and assume he preferred young women or was addicted to porn. But this is a can of worms that you may not wish to open. Well, we are prepared to open it, not least because that's one of the reasons why we've invited Helen Rumbullo to have a longer conversation,

because all this stuff needs to be talked about, doesn't it? It's really weird. It is really weird and it definitely does need to be talked about. And do you know what, Penny, one of the real joys of municipal swimming I've found in my older years is the fact that in a changing room full of women who, you know, just enjoy their swimming of all age groups, you will see all kinds of bodies, all kinds of hair formulations. You know, it is a wonderful thing. It's the female body in its most natural form most of the time.

And by comparison, if I ever go swimming in a really, really posh hotel, and, you know, the changing room has 17 different types of notions and potions and a steam room and a sauna and some GHD hair straighteners and all that kind of jazz. And it's very, very high end. I find myself surrounded by much younger women who've got absolutely no body hair at all. and I just find it really, really spooky. I think it's a massive thing that's happened in our lifetime, Jane, and it doesn't get talked about enough at all.

Well, no, because people just, I was going to say, they don't want to go there, and I'm not intending to be funny at all. But, yeah, it's... No, but also, there's not always the right time, you know, there's no right time. You and I wouldn't sit around the desk at work and suddenly start having a conversation about pubic hair, would we? No.

No, you've left women's air behind you. I'm actually, I don't think those are no longer available to you. Did you ever? It's a good question that. Did we ever talk about it? I mean, to be fair, and I've always felt very defensive about Women's Hour in lots of ways. We did go on Woman's Hour to places that nobody else was going. And I do remember, you know, it must be well over a decade ago,

that there was a report released by, I think it was the London School of Tropical Medicine. And I don't know why they'd been researching into this, but it was about an increase. And this is, I'm just going to be, this is quite, explicit, but I'm going to say it. There's been an increase in anal injuries in young women, and they didn't really know why. And it was because of the influence of porn. And nobody else covered it, apart from Women's Out, and to be fair, The Guardian, I remember that. No other newspaper included the report, no other radio program talked about it. We did, and I, but I remember

thinking at the time, God, how very obscure and peculiar. I mean, I did the interview, but I didn't think it was of much significant. I thought it was horrible, but I didn't think it was of much significance. Well, you know, fast forward and I bet the statistics are much worse than they were. And it's bloody awful. I'm sure they are. Anyway, I'm sorry, that's not very cheerful, is it? But the banter in the office,

well, can we just be honest, the banter in the office generally at Radio 4 was not of the standard we have at the Times Towers. Let's just say, I think things are a little freer here for you. Would you agree? Well, I would agree. I would definitely agree. I think we're a little bit blessed as well because we are surrounded by incredibly bright young people, aren't we? At the times. And I think that their banter is much more interesting actually than if there are quite a lot of 50-something people from exactly the same place in the room

together. I mean, I don't want to condemn Radio 4 at all. We've both had some completely joyful years there and there are wonderful people who work there. But the young people in our office are just fantastic and the stuff that they want to talk about I really want to listen to actually. So good for them. Long May at last, they probably,

what do they think of us, two old crones in the corner? Well, I mean, they seem to eat the chocolate. Let's face it, you know, they don't say no to it, do they? I think they're all right with it. I just wanted to mention Tracy, who has had a joyous experience. I wanted to send an email, celebrating the magic of Ray, she says.

On Monday last week, my 23-year-old son and I went to see Ray in Birmingham at the BP Pulse Live Arena, formerly known as the NEC. Oh, Tracy, I remember I went to see some gigs at the NEC when I was a student there. Ray and her band musicians were simply incredible. She performed a mixture of old and unreleased tracks and cruised through every genre of music

that she does so incredibly well. What a talented singer, songwriter and musician. she comes across as a great person too. I might also add that her sisters were the support act. What a talented family. Tracy, that sounds like a cracking night. I can't remember. Have you seen Ray live? Well, I have.

And June, I was lucky enough to see her last year. So it was after she had won her six Brits and she had a couple of nights at the O2 and we went to see her there and she was still so euphoric about everything that had happened and all of the winds that she had. And it was a properly,

properly magical evening. And, you know, the O2 is absolutely vast. There wasn't a single person in that great big space who didn't go home with a little bit of Ray alongside them. And she's a tiny, tiny diminutive woman in real life. But her stage presence is so extraordinary, Jane. She just leaves something with you, you know, which is quite rare. You've gone to see lots of live acts in your time.

You know, there are some musicians who are absolutely brilliant. but they don't give it to you, do they? They don't actually leave a kind of a bit of their spirit with you long after you've left the venue. And I think she's just really, really remarkable. And I hope because she was incredible. I mean, she still is incredibly young, isn't she? I think she's only mid-20s, isn't she?

Yeah, we could have a glorious, you know, five, six more decades of Ray. I think she is just a phenomenon. And actually all are young female singers at the moment, Jane Archer, I think they're just superb. I think Olivia Dean's superb. Already quite a lot of people have gone down the, oh, you know, she's a bit bland. So no, she's not. It's really.

I'm surprised as I'm like, tunes. It's amazing tunes. And by bland, you mean really, really super globally popular, do you? Oh, okay. So we're back to our Guardian reviews, aren't we? Just ever so slightly. Now there was lots of action at this year's BAFTAs and one thing you might have missed

is that the short film award went to a film about a condition that almost certainly affects somebody you know. One in ten women suffer from endometriosis. It can land somebody in hospital, it has no cure, it limits lives and it's often the cause of infertility. The severe pain of it has been likened to the final stages of labour. Georgie Weilman won a BAFTA for her film about her experience of endometriosis.

It is an art house triumph about pain, hope and the years lost to treatments. At one point, Georgie, it was in a wheelchair because of endometriosis. She had to have a hysterectomy at 29. Fia asked Georgie whether the BAFTA win came as a surprise. It was a strange moment.

We had, me and Matt both kind of said the same thing afterwards that when they called it, we both have this feeling of like, no, this is right. I think we may well win this. And also when it happened, we were like, how on earth is this happening? It was a strange mixture of both somehow. But it really felt like the moment for the community that it was due.

Well, congratulations to you. And I can see in the background of your shot, the BAFTA Award, that mask, that golden mask is lurking by a pot plant. And very, very few people can have that as an ornament in their living room. Now, let's talk about the importance of this short film. Tell us a little bit about the condition endometriosis. What it actually is, what its evil cousin adenomiosis is. What it actually means? Absolutely.

So there is a vast amount of misinformation about endometriosis and adenomyosis out in the media, in the medical field, everywhere. So a big part of what we wanted to do was to try and show the reality of the disease and that's what the this is endometriosis work has tried to be from the beginning um so endometriosis is uh often described as a condition of painful periods and it just that cannot summarize what it is and in the slightest it's quite an insult actually to what the community has to fight um so it is a disease uh where cells similar to the lining of the uterus not the same grow elsewhere in the body um those uh lesions

then bleed and the blood has nowhere to go. So it's internal bleeding, which will then cause, can cause scarring. It can cause organs to stick and fuse together. It can damage or destroy organs completely. It is a condition of chronic pain, chronic inflammation. And with that attack on the body, you often see chronic fatigue, you see digestive issues, bladder issues. It depends where the disease is growing. So for me, I'm currently been having a lot of problems with my heart and my lung, and that pain is cyclical. So we think that there is endometriosis around my heart and my lung,

and I'm waiting for my next surgery. So the symptoms will vary depending on where the disease is and how aggressively it's attacking the body. And Georgie, what you said at the beginning is just so important, isn't it? I mean, it really isn't a painful period. and quite often when people talk about painful periods, they'll put the word just in front of it. It's just painful periods.

And as you've outlined, this is a really serious condition that affects people's lives enormously. And I wonder whether you can just tell us a little bit more about what it actually feels like in terms of the symptoms. It is quite a hard one to describe. I've been speaking about it with our producer Harriet

about the disassociation that happened. when you're in that severity of pain, which can make it quite difficult to explain it afterwards. But endometriosis is a cyclical disease. So for many of us, the worst pain that we'll experience is during our period. So I've had a hysterectomy for adenomyosis, which, as you say, is the evil cousin of endometriosis, where cells similar to the uterine lining grow into the wall of the uterus.

Personally, Georgie, I think it's one of the huge problems. of the disease, you know, my pain would be different to your pain. Your pain would be different to another woman's pain. But it's important to try and understand what it actually means to a life, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So the cyclical pain that we can have during our period is known to be commonly worse than childbirth in its severity. And it comes in waves for me, like contraction. So it looks that way to the outside that that's what's happening. And the pain throughout the rest of the month. I mean, it depends on the person and where the disease is. But for me, that's like lower back pain. It's like chest and heart pain. It's a bladder pain,

pain when I eat, pain when I cough. You can get random lightning pains like sneezing without guarding first can be very dangerous. Missing a step. I mean, things like that can put you in A&E just all of a sudden because the severity of the pain that can happen. And it really is a full body disease, it attacks the full body. So, you know, today I've been having what I call endo flu symptoms, which is, it feels like flu, but it's not. It's a fun extra of endo and the body trying to fight that inflammation and the reaction of that. Is it understood, Georgie, why some women do suffer so badly from it? It's not understood. And it's we, the research, the funding we have for research is absolutely inadequate that we've hardly got any money,

for funding and we still don't know why, you know, there's still no cure and we still don't know why someone with a very small amount of disease in their body may have to use a walker or a wheelchair because of the severity of the pain and someone who could have a fully frozen pelvis, which is where all of the organs in your pelvis are stuck together and they may not even know they have endometriosis until they're struggling to get pregnant. So the severity of the spread of disease and the severity of pain do not correlate whatsoever and we don't know why that is and we really need more research to try and understand this disease what's been your experience of doctors treating it uh it's been very difficult um

i have been quite honest about the fact that i've um developed cptcd and an awful lot of my triggers are medical related um it has been a real fight to get diagnosed and to have my pain acknowledged and my symptoms acknowledged um it was put down to mental health for most of my childhood and my 20s, when I finally did get my diagnosis, it has been easier in some ways, but also not. I mean, the spread of misinformation about endometriosis makes it still a struggle every day. I mean, I was told not long ago by a GP, like, you don't have endometriosis anymore because you've had a hysterectomy, and I had to try and explain that that is not true. And the education for endometriosis is wrong. Like, we've,

We've got so much for people to understand. So even with a diagnosis, it's a real fight to try and get treatment and to try and be taken seriously. And why has it become, and has it always been, in fact, such a gaslit condition? I mean, you know, the simple fact staring us in the face as we have this conversation is because women's pain and women's gynaological pain throughout history has been something that we've been told we will get, we will suffer and we will endure. Is that the problem within the medical profession?

Absolutely. I think an awful lot of the issue is medical misogyny. Endometriosis affects women, trans men and non-binary folk. And historically, we are not treated well when we were in pain when it comes to medical field. But the bigger issue I feel like with this is, the misinformation about endometriosis and the lack of correct education in medical schools. So if people are being trained that this is a condition of painful periods and they have very limited information on what the disease actually is,

if they then see someone in A&E who physically cannot cope with the level of pain they're in, the only thing they come down to is this is a mental health issue, and we see that time and time and time again in our community. What are the treatments available? we have a very long way to go. At the moment, what is known to be our best kind of option is excision surgery, which is very different to ablation surgery, which is the standard treatment offered. We see kind of hormonal treatments being given out, but these very much are a band-aid. The disease is continuing to spread and grow and cause damage with that band-aid. And, you know, holistically,

lifestyle changes. Stress is one of the biggest triggers for chronic diseases. But we really need research because, yeah, the best we have at the moment is excision surgery, which is, you know, I've had excision surgery. I'm still very sick. There is still a lot of recurrence with that. And excision surgery is not accessible. It takes an awful lot of money or a very advanced case in the UK to be able to see an

excision specialist. And we should have, everyone should have access to that. Do you know how many women do suffer from both these conditions? From both, I don't personally know. I know that endometriosis, the last kind of chat around that is one in ten, assigned female at birth. But then I've seen other chat people say maybe it's one in five, maybe, you know, we don't know. And the fact is we have such a huge proportion of our community is undiagnosed. It takes eight to ten years to get a diagnosis.

and even people who are having diagnostic surgeries, the GYNs who are doing those surgeries aren't trained to really know what endometriosis looks like in all its forms and to be able to find it properly. So many people are having diagnostic surgeries being told they don't have endometriosis when they actually do. So it's a number we're not able to know at the moment. If you'd had better treatment when you were much younger,

would that have made a substantial difference to your outcomes? Yeah. Yeah. The longer that the disease is left, the more likely we are to see comorbidities with that disease and other chronic conditions because I've spent so much of my life in fight or flight, in extreme chronic pain, disassociating, developing CPDSD. It's a very high stress environment for the body and it makes you incredibly sick. And the longer it's left, the more damage can be done to your organs. the more it affects your fertility. So it is, yeah, the longer we're leaving people, the sicker they're getting,

and the worse it is for their mental health, to cope with this level of pain and to not be believed in that level of pain. Why did you want to make a film? So I had originally made a photographic project, which was the first time that the reality of endometriosis was actually being portrayed accurately in the media. But there's only so much a photographic and show.

And I think the importance of the nature of endometriosis and how so many of us can look like we're able-bodied on one day and then can be bed-bound and look like we're terminally ill on the next day, that's a very important thing for people to understand because I think that often plays into us being not believed because we get that, well, you could do it yesterday. It's a very beautiful film, Georgian. Congratulations on it.

I think the thing that really struck me, and presumably this is the force of your creativity here. The beautiful, really heartwarming pictures and home videos at the beginning of you as a very young child, which obviously just changes when you hit puberty, doesn't it? The innocence and the bouncy joy just has gone, hasn't it? Yeah, I think our editor and co-director Matt Houghton did a beautiful job going through the archive and finding the right pieces to bring that kind of that cyclical nature of the disease into the film and bringing that whole whole picture of what life with it is really like. And I think it was important as well that we also covered my grief having to have a hysterectomy for adenomyosis at 29 when I wasn't able to have any children before that. I think it was important to tie in the childhood footage

and show the impact of that on a larger scale. It's a beautiful film. I would recommend everybody giving it watch. Even if you don't suffer from these diseases, you will know somebody who does. That's the point, isn't it? And you may not have understood quite what it has meant to their life that they have this.

Absolutely. It was something we were very conscious of. when we were making the film that we deliberately wanted to build our team of not just people with endometriosis, because we need this film to reach everybody to be able to help people with endometriosis. We need everyone to see it. We need the public opinion of endometriosis to change. We need the medical opinion of endometriosis to change. So, you know, our team is comprised of a mix of people that some hadn't heard of endometriosis before

and others have lived with it their whole lives. And I think what we've ended up with is a film that is reaching everyone. And I think the BAFTA win is a good sign of that we're doing. What we've tried to set out for we're kind of achieving. Georgie Weilman. And the short film is available on YouTube and lots of other platforms. And it's only about 15 minutes long. And it's very beautiful.

And it just makes this extraordinary point, Jane, this lovely, happy, bouncy young girl in all of the home videos from her childhood, who then hits puberty, starts getting this horrible, horrible illness. And it conveys the amount of time that has been stolen from Georgie because of all of the pain that she's been in. It's not a kind of nasty film to watch at all. I thought it was just very, very clever. And it's an absolute truth that the medical profession has largely ignored this.

And certainly, you know, pharmaceutical companies haven't poured millions into researching it. And some of that is because we haven't made enough of a fuss about the damage that is doing to so many women's lives. So, you know, I think it's well worth your time. Have a lovely weekend. Hope you feel better. And please do join us on Monday. You'll find it Monday evening. You'll be able to see it.

The majesty and mystique of off-air with Jane and Fee will be shattered forever. But hey, that's showbiz. Right. Jane and Fee at times.orgia. Take care. Speak to you soon. Bye. Congratulations.

You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.