Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Is the hairy cornflake still with us? (with Craig Brown)

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

There are some important Parish notices in this episode, please take note! *cough book club announcement cough* After that, Jane and Fi chat fatbergs, Sherwood and Halloween in Bromley. Plus, Jane and Fi speak to satirist Craig Brown about his latest book 'A Voyage Around the Queen'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You might have a punt on a slice of Princess Anne's wedding cake. In the end he can't afford it. He can't afford it. It goes for too much money. I'm singing My Sharona today. The knack. Yep. And I don't really know why because nobody plays The Knack, My Sharona,. The knack. Yep. And I don't really know why because nobody plays

the knack My Sharona anymore on the radio. Where would I have heard it? My Sharona. It's a good song. It was a hit in 1979. Well there we go. Or was it 1980? I don't think we're allowed to do any more on that because we'll have to pay some kind of enormous music fee. Right, okay, welcome to Off Air, which is our podcast. And today it's great for us because we've got a new member, relatively new member of staff, a colleague, joining us to see how it's done. Yes, to witness the magic. And do you know what? It's his birthday.

He's 30 today. Happy birthday to Guy Emmanuel. So, Guy, you are one of those people who could swap their names around. Has anybody ever Emmanuel guide you? Many times. Okay that's good to know because you couldn't be Garvey Jane could you and I couldn't be Glover Fee. No wouldn't work. But it's always made me laugh. Not your parents Guy, I exclude them from this, but you know people who are kind of called Brosnan Brosnan, I just think how unimaginative are you? Donald McDonald! I mean I do think David Davis is also really weird.

But look. Simon Simons. So why do people do that? We've talked about names a lot on the podcast, but they are an endless source of enjoyment. They are. And indeed bafflement. Now, we must gather ourselves together for the very important parish notices of the week. Very much so.

So, tote winners. Well, they're not winners. I mean, it's just tote help yourselves, isn't it? They don't have to jump over any kind of a bar. We're running out of totes. Oh, winners in life okay this is the voice of young Eve who doesn't want any work to do so look tote winners are Kath Jeffries Claire Hankey Craig Gumley's wife Karen but

she's more than that she's not just Craig Gumley's wife congratulations Karen you're a Karen in your own right. Penny Harrison and Janina. Jackie Clarke and her son Tom. Oh that's gonna be a difficult share isn't it? Not if they live in the same household. Whoever's trundling down to the little can take the bag. They get one each? Well I'm not surprised yet. There's not many four left. It's hardly surprising, is it? Right. And who else?

Sarah Gay and Gary Russell's wife, Angela. But again. Who is Angela in her own right? So much more than that. Now, a book club pick has happened. Yeah, which is good because a number of people had suggested the book and it's high time we were getting on with it. And it is...

The Trouble with Goats and Sheep by Joanna Cannon. Okay, so let's all get a wiggle on. It's widely available, isn't it? It's in paperback. There shouldn't be any issues with getting hold of a copy of that. No, not at all. And it was a kind of... it was a hit at the time, but I don't think it was a huge, huge, huge, you know, top of the charts for 256 weeks. But it's definitely one of those books that you do recommend to people as soon as you've read it. And the premise of these little people looking into the world of the big people to try and solve the disappearance of somebody in their street is absolutely captivating right from the get-go. Okay so hop on board with that one, Joanna Cannon's book The Trouble

with Goats and Sheep and the tote bags have been a source of any number of different sorts of inspiration and we want to thank Sophie for her lovely image. She thanks Eve in a very polite email for her tote and has included a lovely image of her toy poodle in the bag. By the way the toy poodle is called Peach. She's hooked on a doorknob as my arms are not long enough to take a selfie and carry Peach in the bag at the same time. Sophie thank you and if you do ever mention a pet their name is absolutely crucial in the email. Yeah because it's a little bit like being Gary's wife.

Actually, you're a person in your own right. You're not just Jane Garvey's cat. Right, this one comes in from Seren Phillips, who is our Zurich correspondent. Is that a paid job? Not at the moment, but we'll have a word with HR. So Seren, thank you very much indeed for that because Seren is dependent on us and can't fall back to sleep without us talking in her ear. But last night we slightly annoyed her, Jane, because in the wee small hours we touched on a subject close to her heart

or should that be my nose. I was wide awake until the end of the episode, however back to the reeking rubbish. I fled Brexit Isle for sunny Switzerland, pejorative sentence, some years ago where given the summer temperatures in Zurich you would have thought they would have invested more in air conditioning, particularly as many of us live in flats where the hot air rises and we don't have access to a handy compost heap on which to toss our garbage. My own personal brainwave, in brackets I am modest, which I wanted to share with listeners is to make use of empty plastic milk cartons. They hold one litre and are

wide enough to cram in a banana skin, garlic skins, all those dripping tea bags and even an avocado stone. Back on with the lid and it keeps the smells in very well and it doesn't leak. And then Seren chucks it out with the regular rubbish and that's because, Jane, they have different rubbish rules in Switzerland. Of course, yes. So Saren says, do not judge me for not putting it in the green waste. And this works aberrantly until it gets exceedingly hot because then fermentation can occur. I should think it would probably explode after a while.

Well, I think, yeah, I'm no scientist, but I think it might. Yeah, but very helpfully she's attached a picture so that we can also see the fetching Swiss cows on the bottles and they do, they look very nice. So that is a very good idea but we wouldn't be able to do that here because our composting is separated into food waste and then green rubbish and I've always thought you could probably get away with a little bit of food waste in the recycling. Well, I put some... But apparently not, because they've got to spray it all down. And people thinking, oh, I'll just chuck in my not really very well cleaned out cream cheese tub,

is creating havoc because they've just got to use quite a lot of water to clean everything first, which negates the point. We haven't had one of those very stirring images of a fatberg for a while. No. And I suspect we're probably due one, aren't we? They are fascinatingly repulsive and they do, I mean they're click-baity, aren't they? Because let's face it, we'd all want a longer lingering look at a fatberg. Yes. And we, I don't know, I haven't been, I don't think I've been

entertained by one lately. And what you really need is the fatberg next to something, you know, when they do that, you know, when somebody finds an enormous spider and they put it next to a life-size banana, just so you can tell. So you want a fatberg that's actually bigger than the person who removed it. That's what we're always looking for. But they're quite frequently as big as houses, aren't they? They are huge. Absolutely huge. I think London's new super sewer is up and running now. Exciting times. Well, that could be an OB for us, couldn't it?

Listen, you may mock, but I think there's... I'd love to hear from somebody who worked on the super sewer, because it's an engineering marvel and I think it's up and running. But I could be wrong and I often am. Thank you to a number of people who've been kind enough to contact the podcast about Spinalonga. I went to Crete on holiday last week and I was very close to the island of Spinalonga which had for many years been a leper colony and I was both too idle and also a bit too scared to properly visit Spinalonga although you can but a number of you have been. Thank you to Sharon for some wonderful images of her trip to Spinalonga. She said we did

visit the island, I've attached a couple of photos for you. You actually missed out on an awesome place, although I think Victoria Hislop may have romanticised the whole leper colony experience a tad. That was in her novel The Island. It was actually pretty bloody bleak. We arrived at the island in some style in the hotel speedboat, which felt utterly inappropriate, but we did get there just before the tourist ferry from Ollunda so we had the island to ourselves. Our speedboat picked us up from the jetty just as the ferry docked and we were whisked away a la 007 back to our exclusive hotel, says Sharon. Very nice. But this is from another listener. This is from Kate who says, our local skipper who took us there had grown up nearby

and he told us that babies were born on the island to mothers with leprosy. The babies were apparently born free from the disease and would then be returned to the mainland. But there they were often rejected by their own families, presumably fearful both of the disease and its stigma. So then had to be sent to a small orphanage which was set up specifically for those spinner-longer infants. And as you say

this wasn't distant history, it only closed in 1957. The devastating atmosphere on that island radiated across the bay to nearby Plaka and my husband and I agreed we didn't need to get any closer to feel the emotion enshrined there still. Yeah I went, I had dinner in Plaka and I know exactly exactly what you mean. As the Sun set over Spinalonga it was quite genuinely moving and incredibly sad and Rita says I was holidaying in Crete many moons ago and we were staying in a lovely little villa on the coast right across from the island and we did take a boat out to go to spinelonga. It was moving, quite mysterious as for the views from the island are actually beautiful and a sense of peace pervaded I found. We were told tales of great human kindness extended from the locals on Crete

towards the occupants of the island, brave souls who risked infection and other dangers by dropping off essential supplies when the weather at sea was rough and the regular supplies to the colony were held up. Also stories of priests and nuns who regularly attended the sick, some of whom took up permanent residence on the island despite the dangers. Some people are just better than the rest of us aren't they? They really are and sometimes you need to be reminded of that. That's from Rita. Thank you very much Rita. But Victoria Hislop's book about the island, I mean it is all about love isn't it? Oh yeah, yes it is. It's about prejudice and overcoming prejudice yeah yes yeah it's a very good book. Let's read that again actually. Can I just say because look I've found... Oh I've lost him. Where has he gone? I'll find him again. There he is, he's Gary. I just did that in order to keep everybody listening.

Everybody's awake now. We need the ghostly music which we can't afford. Well, no, but you might want to hum along a little bit here because this is Gary who we've awarded the tote bag to. But I think we need a little bit of explaining here. Good to have you back for the Yuletide run-in. That is what we're embarking upon, isn't it? Very much so. So, my wife Angela is an avid listener to offer. I'm nearly as avid, promise.

More pertinently, my birthday is Halloween and we live in Bromley. Oh my god. Gary, I'm coming down. In my case, an exile from North London, I can confirm Halloween is celebrated well in Bromley and I should be welcome back any time. Guy, just to keep you posted here, whenever I go to Bromley I feel that I've lived there before and I never have. So it's quite a spooky thing. Well, that's what you think. I know. We could happily go trick or treating with my kids but as they're now 25 they seem less

keen. I'll come with you, Gary. I don't mind trick or treating at all. Talking of treats, my wife has been an absolute rock to me this year. A challenging year of parental health decline and all that entails. A hello to Angela and tote bag for her would just be a small but welcome token of my gratitude. So it is just so lovely, isn't it, when we get emails from kind husbands asking us to join them with the support of their beautiful, wonderful, lovely lives. And we are really, really happy to do that. And I hope that everything turns a bit of a corner for you. But to be honest, when it comes to parental decline,

that is very unlikely. Can I just say as well, because we have already decided the book club book, but we've had so many fantastic recommendations. Chucked out by Alison from Nottingham is Burial Rites by Hannah Kent. Have you read that? I haven't heard of it. So it's set in Iceland and it's quite a bleak book but it's really extraordinary. It tells

the story of Agnes Magnus Dottir, a servant in Northern Iceland who was condemned to death after the murder of two men, one of whom was her employer and she became the last woman to be put to death in Iceland. I know it sounds very grim, but I'm absolutely with you. It's a really extraordinary book, actually. And I think we're fascinated by Iceland for its wonderful, magical qualities. I've never been, so... But it has quite a dark history. And living off the land there was just so hard,

because the land doesn't give up very much, and there's quite a lot of that in that book. So when was that book set? So that would have been a good question. So I think, and it's not recent, I think that and I'll have to check this out, but I think we probably put a woman to death after Iceland stopped putting women to death. But I'll check out the exact date because I can't suddenly conjure it up as in the hits of the knack but I'll get back to you on that one. It's never been introduced by DLT on top of the pops. I wonder what's on DLT's bedside table to read. I don't even know. Is the hairy cornflake still with us?

I think he probably is. I think he is. If he's not... I haven't heard know. Is the hairy cornflakes still with us? I think he probably is. I think he is. If he's not... I haven't heard he isn't. There wasn't a huge commemoration of his passing. Oh gosh, that reminds me, that brings us on to Craig Brown. Whack, whack, oops. Which nobody will say when the great man passes. Well, I think actually probably David Silito will.

He will. He'll end his voiceover in the 6 o'clock news with Wack Wack Oops! David being one of the BBC's many arts correspondents. Yes, Craig Brown is our guest on this podcast and he has written a book called A Voyage Around the Queen and I've read not all of it but quite a chunk of it and it's properly made me laugh. And the chapter about the Queen's death is hilarious at times. Now obviously not the actual fact that this much revered lady left us at the age of, at a very venerable age, let's say, of 96, but I loved his account of some of the celebrity reactions.

I mean, there was just no need for Iron Maiden to tweet about it, but they did. So the book is really fantastic and as regular listeners to the podcast will know, I'm not quite as enamored of the Royal Family as Jane is. I'm not enamored. I'm fascinated. You're fascinated, but you've definitely keyed into them. I'm kind of like, I just don't want to waste so much of my time thinking about them. I think they're flawed individuals living in a gilded cage. I just can't go down that road. But Craig Brown's book is absolutely fantastic because it's a it's a collation isn't it and curation of nearly everything that's ever been written about them. Ever been said and the fact that he continually reminds us of dreams

that people have had about the Queen, about encounters with the Queen. Did you read the chapter where he goes along to the sale of royal memorabilia in Colchester. Yes, and he decides that he might have a punt on his face at Princess Anne's wedding. In the end he can't afford it. He can't afford it. It goes too much for my money. By the way, she's been married how many times? I mean, I think it was... Well, only twice.

Oh, only twice. Sorry. A bit too close to home there. Well, that's a nasty thing to say as well, isn't it? I wish I had been married twice. No, it was astonishing sum of money, Princess Anne's wedding cake, wasn't it? It was 50 years old by the time he was bidding for it. As he points out, if you did, what would you do with it?

Well you'd keep it in a box and you'd put it on the mantelpiece. And then every time a new person came round to the house... They say, look, I've got Princess Anne's wedding cake. So look, it's an absolute treat. We've yet to do the interview in the spooky notion of time. Yeah, we're just anticipating how much fun it's going to be. So it is a really, really cracking book. Do you know what? It's off-puttingly big, though. I think if I saw that in a shop, I'd think, I can't buy that because it's just too much. I mean, it's about, it's over a thousand pages, isn't it? thousand pages isn't it? It's a long story. I've got a paperback

proof copy and it's not quite so intimidating. It's about two inches thick isn't it? Yeah but you could give it to a much-loved older relative at Christmas and they'd be happy for the next two years. Yeah. Because you can just read a couple of chapters. It's heaven actually. It is wonderful. Yeah. So can I just catch up with Alison again who's made the recommendation of Hanneken's book because also she had a question for me about High Country and I thought exactly the same thing Alison. So let's punt it out to the audience. Many of them have binge watched High Country. It's available on the iPlayer. It's originally from Australia. It's fantastic crime fiction. And Alison said, who killed the Harris's cows? It's been bothering me. Maybe I missed the

plot tie up. Was it ever explained? And no, it wasn't ever explained. And actually, there are quite a few things, Alison, that I didn't think were ever really explained. What happened to the teacher? That was just left on a really weird kind of it doesn't really matter thing. So if anyone can fill us in on that and we have loads and loads of Australian correspondents who would have watched it too so I'll be very grateful indeed. And Charmaine shared our difficulty with watching Sherwood. Oh yeah. Yeah and I couldn't take any more violence after

just half an hour of it so Charmaine for God's sake don't go back to it love because if you couldn't do the violence in the first half an hour you don't need episode 2. You don't need episode 2 at all. And fancied something relaxing and light-hearted I turned to Freddie Flintoff's field of dreams on iPlayer. It's not the sort of program that I would usually watch but I'd heard lots of good reviews and just to say you will need to have the tissues handy. He is highly watchable isn't he Charmaine and you know just what's happened to him is is really awful and and even if you are of the disposition as I think Jane and I are, that it's a fool's game,

that top gear stunt driving type stuff, it hurts so many people. I mean, I just wouldn't, I would never want somebody I love to get involved with that kind of television, I think is asking for troubled TV. Well, the expression, accident waiting to happen. Yeah, but I'm still so sad that that happened to Freddie Flintoff. Because also, you know, he had told us quite plainly in his own words before that his mental health was up and down. So you know, having to deal with this, the very worst of things is, you know, doubly,

doubly difficult. So I'm sure it's a fantastic program to watch and Charmaine is recommending Squinters on ITVX which is another Aussie series which is very clever and amusing. So I'll definitely give that a go. There's a new Nordic drama available on the 4. It's called Hostage. Is that on a plane? Not after that thing I watched on ITV. With the one with Idris? No, Richard Armitage, you remember the endless thing with the flight to China. Oh, red-eye? My God!

Okay. See, there's a lot on planes, isn't there? Yeah, oh no, I mean, well actually that reminds me, we were talking yesterday about boozing on planes, weren't we? And we had a very sensible email suggestion from Steve, just saying, why can't, you know they always look at your boarding pass when you're in duty free before you get on, why can't you have your boarding pass checked for drinks before you get on a plane? So you can only have a couple.

I think there are loads of ways that you'll be able to do it. But atmospheres in which I wouldn't want to be k-lied, number one, on a plane. Yeah. I just can't think of why anybody would be. You and me both. I just can't understand it. Just a brief mention to Anonymous who says, what is the appropriate way to respond to the words, you're not, are you? As an acquaintance strokes your stomach with the back of their hand, having just laid eyes on you. This is the situation I found myself in today waiting to collect my daughter from school. When I exclaimed no, the reply was you've just

been eating too much then and some laughter. I was crushed. I'm 45 with low self-esteem and I'm already self-conscious about my shape given that I'm no longer the size 8 I was in my 20s. Not only that but I put on my skinny jeans for the first time in ages, feeling that I had lost a bit of weight over the last six weeks. How on earth are you supposed to deal with comments like this? At what point as a female do people stop speculating that you're pregnant if you don't have a flat stomach? I was really humiliated by it and it's making me squirm hours later. I'm really sorry to hear that and I don't have anything really wise or special to say

about that except it probably was immensely dispiriting and the problem is with the person who did it because that's just idiotic. I mean who in their right mind of mature years, I mean anybody over the age of, I don't know, 16 should know that you just don't do that. Yeah, it's horrible. It's really invasive and nasty and I'm not surprised you were upset. Hmm. But try, I mean, try to put it in perspective and forget about it. Would it be vaguely amusing ever to say to a man with an enormous pot belly? Well, I think...

I mean, would you? Could you? What's going on here, Clive? We live in modern times. We do. Yes. I just want to say hello to Laura, who has sent us a fantastic picture from the top of a mountain. And she's up in Angus, and Angus doesn't get enough mentions. In fact, she's in Coupar. So just a hello to her.

And thank you as well for all of your thoughts actually about cycling. And I'm trying to find the right email and I will find it in time for Monday's podcast. But there was a really thoughtful one just about the type of people who would never have been able to learn to ride a bike early on in their lives. And it just made me think about the amazing Olympic cyclists who joined the refugee team, didn't they, from Afghanistan, who told us often that they had just not been allowed to ride bikes in Afghanistan as young girls. It's just one of the many, many things that Afghan women couldn't do. Now superseded by the appalling things that Afghan women are allowed to do like speaking outside.

I was going to say, let's just mention the fact because people need to keep talking about it. Women in particular need to keep talking about it. Women in Afghanistan have now been told that they can't speak in public. And not only that, but even at home, they're being asked to speak quietly so that nobody outside the home can hear them. Yeah. So it's the chapter in a Margaret Atwood book that the editor would go, you're taking it too far. It's too ridiculous. This would never happen.

But do you know what, I would just disagree with you on the women need to keep talking about it. I just think men need to talk about it. Oh, you're right. Because the Taliban, I mean, A, they can't hear women. That's their policy, isn't it? They don't want to hear women. So they just make a law so they can't hear women. That's their policy, isn't it? They don't want to hear women. So they just make a law so they can't hear women. And they're only ever going to respond to other men on the international world stage. They're just never going to listen to what women have to say about what women would like to be. So I'd like men everywhere to start talking more about what's happening

to the women of Afghanistan. Congratulations to Rhiannon who chose exactly Jane. What a woman. The pile of summer holiday reading that Garvey and I, well actually I didn't have the Robert Harris book because as I said when I came in just before my holiday, there's only one copy I'm doing the interview. That's my voice there. It's very much the Thursday voice. But you do have Anne Cleves, The Dark Wives, and you do have Claire Chambers, Shy Creatures.

Both really superb books, just superb books. Yeah, I haven't read the Anne Cleves yet. I'm kind of holding it close to my bosom for when I'm really... It's a good one. Is it? I very much look forward to that. Shall we bring in today's guest? Young Eve is looking eager. Now, if you found yourself wondering whether or not the late Queen's corgis are getting over their grief, you'll be delighted to know that Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York, who was granted care of the dogs,

has taken them to see a dog whisperer and canine grief counsellor who's advised them to be allowed space of their own late at night to deal with it all. It's this kind of detail that permeates a cracking new book by Craig Brown called A Voyage Around the Queen, in which in over 670 pages he details the life of the late monarch through the eyes of those who met her and watched her and reported on her and worked for her, and the result is glorious. If you want to know more about the band on the Royal Yacht Britannia it played every night whilst the Royals dined. It played all the way through Diana and Charles's rather disastrous honeymoon but the musicians all sleep in one room on fold

up bunks and the room is so far down below there isn't even a porthole. Craig came in today and we started by asking him what his own experience of the Lake Queen had been. Well my actual relationship with her was very brief, that I met her once, like four million people it's estimated did around the world. I met her when I was about 19 or 20, I was a student and I wasn't expecting to meet her, I was at a party which she was at, a party given by a parent of a friend of mine, and I was walking across the room and suddenly the host said, oh would you like to be presented? So I said rather drunkenly, studently way, so yeah, yeah. And then you come across, you know, you're facing this person you've seen

on stamps, on the television, magazines, newspapers, almost every day of your life. And it is very, very discombobulating. And like I think most people, I just started talking gibberish. And I was telling her, I was studying drama at the time and I was just giving her a long-winded explanation of Bertolt Brecht's theory of alienation. Lucky her. Yeah, and so she kept on saying, oh very interesting, which is actually the signal I later alert, you know, to say shut up, I'm going to, but and taking a step back with it,

it's another signal that she's closing the conversation, but I kept stepping forward. Anyway, I remember waking up, and I'm sure lots of people have done this who met the Queen Waking up in the early hours of morning for about a fortnight thinking what did I say? What was I going on about? But but Terry Wogan called that the royal effect when Phil Collins started singing. Oh I think he started whistling close encounters of the first kind and he said what when the Queen was talking to him and he said to Wogan what was I doing that for and she and Wogan said it was the royal effect people just go mad. And the effect is also quite physical on some people as you reveal in the book so some people worry particularly around investitures and yes that they might actually wet

themselves Kingsley Amonus was worried about Yes, he was taking Imodium to stop his sudden bowel movement and he wasn't eating beans and things. And Kingsley Amis is seen as a very kind of robust kind of English comic writer. But a friend of mine, Alexander Chancellor, the now sadly late ex-editor of Spectator, he said that before one of her, she had these regular lunches for about 12 or so figures in the public eye. And they were all, a courtier told them before that it would be wise to, as he put it, spend a penny because some people, and these are sophisticated people, you know, editors and heads of the army and things, you know, had accidents when they were so sort of petrified or alarmed or... And I think it's slightly to do with, because she,

and the book's about the way she inhabited the psyche of the nation, and they estimate a third of British people have dreamt about the Queen at some time or another. And so she sort of haunts people's heads. And you saw that at the time when everyone, I find it very moving that people filing past her coffin, you know, she represented more than herself. At that point she would represent their mother or their grandmother or even their own mortality. And so it went very deep, everyone's connection with the Queen. Yeah, and it's a very poignant book in parts because you have collated so much material around the whole of her life. And actually one of the chapters where you write about how she was written about as a very young girl I found quite affecting because basically she was told

that she was amazing and good and kind and wonderful and almost near deity you know right from the get-go and very few children come out of that kind of childhood adulation very well actually. I know and in a way her sister who had a sort of similar treatment, not quite as extreme, didn't come out well, Princess Margaret, but somehow it just shows how incredibly stable she was, I think, that you know right from the moment her birth was headlined, so she was famous for all of her 96 years, and yet she somehow would always be able to divorce her, you know, the adulation given to her as a famous person, as the future queen and then the queen, from her inner self, which most celebrities can't, I don't think.

Yeah, it's a very good point. Most celebrities really can't. The kind of cult of celebrity, though, has led you to do some quite strange things in the name of monarchy, hasn't it? Would you like to tell us about the auction of royal memorabilia in Colchester and the items that you rather fancied to buy? Well, you know, I think they do an annual, a sort of royal auction in a place called Reamon Dancy is the name of the auctioneer is in Colchester. And I think it must have been just after the Queen died, but they had her drive, it came into the press, they had her first driving license, which is you know when she joined the ATS or whatever the women's service was in the war. And so

you know, I thought well that's kind of been an interesting thing to have. And I can't remember what it was valued at. It's in the book, but it was, say, it was sort of £800. I thought, well, that'd still be interesting. But it went for thousands more. And everything was passing estimates. And I don't know if you've ever been at an auction, but you sort of rather get thirsty for a win, because it's a bit like gambling. You just want to win, even though it just means you're the stupidest person in the room. There's quite sad lots, aren't there, because there are people who've been housekeepers or gardeners

and they're just putting in a kind of tiny note that the Queen once wrote to them. Or, you know, sort of long service medals that someone's grandfather had, and you think, oh God, they spent all their life earning it, and now, you know, you might get £120 for it and I think that it is a bit sad. But you missed the opportunity to get a slice of Princess Anne's wedding cake. Yes, and I really cursed myself. I could have just carried on but I thought this because

I just, it was in a little box, a slice of Princess Anne's wedding to Mark Phillips, so I think it was 1974, 73, and I thought well that'd be, you know, that's a good consolation prize for not getting the Queen's driving licence. And the price was going up and actually I think it stopped at only about £75, so I mean obviously it's a useless thing to have, but you know I could be showing it to you today and in some ways it's a peculiar relic and it was a kind of comical marriage actually. Mark Phillips or something funny about it. I don't know and so I regret it and probably it'll have doubled in price. I would have thought so. Especially when Princess Anne dies for instance. It will only go up. Oh great, let's not go there. Actually Princess Anne is one of, well Princess Anne and Prince Philip emerge as more than curmudgeonly in this mighty tome of yours I have to say.

I mean Philip, if we can just focus on him for a second. I mean the man was impossible wasn't he? I think, well not entirely possible, I think the fascinating thing about Prince Philip, and it excuses a lot, is quite how amazingly bohemian his background was. Oh my goodness, his parents! Yeah, I mean his mother had been treated in a Freud clinic in Switzerland, at one point she thought she was Jesus Christ. She later then started her own orders of nuns and dressed up as a nun, lived in Buckingham Palace towards the end of her life.

I mean, actually done some kind of rather brave work hiding Jews during the war. But his father was this sort of playboy. He hadn't seen Prince Philip for about seven years before he died. And he died in the arms of a prostitute in a place in Monte Carlo, I think. And Prince Philip himself was born on the kitchen table of a house called Mon Repos. That's one of my favourite facts. Was it on Corfu? So he had to sort of invent himself. And then his sisters had married Nazis, I mean kind

of senior Nazis. He himself had gone to actually a public school, Gordonston, which was founded against the whole Nazi thing, so it was sort of an anti-Nazi school. And so out of this sort of mishmash of his life, he had to create this, you might think, curmudgeonly British character, but it was quite a successful creation. And the people, his supporters say, well, the Queen actually wasn't that interested in people, and so she was just happy to say, oh, very interesting, or how long have you been waiting, and that kind of thing. Whereas Prince Philip wanted to spark a conversation, so he'd say something slightly rude, which then the press would always say a terrible gaffe, but it was actually so that the person felt free to say something back. However, so that's the

excuse. I think you're a very generous man Craig. Can we just talk briefly about some of the terrible people the Queen was obliged to entertain. There's a great story about Idi Amin coming for lunch. Yes, I mean she had awful people, Putin recently, the Ceausescu's, people who'd slaughtered millions of people and she always did it with great grace. I mean when Idi Amin had lunch with her he actually did reveal to her because of course they all worshipped the Queen, and so they thought they could confide in her, as many prime ministers could confide in her. But Idi Amin said he had plans the next day or the next week to invade the neighbouring country of Tanzania.

And so she felt obliged to inform the Foreign Secretary or the Prime Minister because this is major news. But then later on, I mean he led the British government to marry Nancy, I mean, but he was threatening to come to her, I think it was her Royal Jubilee celebrations in St Paul's Cathedral and right to the end they didn't know whether this kind of monster would turn up or not. So, I mean, she didn't have, in lots of ways, she had a comfortable life, but it wasn't an easy life. She had to deal with these people. I don't think it was easy.

And there's plenty of evidence of the kind of chilliness of the institution throughout the book. One thing that I hadn't known before was that at the first church service, on the day that Diana had died, the family was at Balmoral and the young princes went to the church service. Within the church service there was no mention of their mother. That seems extraordinary. I find that very inexplicable almost. I mean I've got a lot of sympathy with the Queen at that time, because, you know, these

two little boys, their mother had died. What you want in that is, is coseting. And you want, you don't want to be in the, in the press. And so she was just looking after them in, in foul moral. As she had done before with the natchball child, whose grandfather, Mount Badon, had been killed along with the boys twin brother. And he gave a very kind of moving account of being in Balmoral and the Queen just looking after him in a quiet way. Like a normal mum actually. But yes, there is that steeliness and it was about Princess, and heaven knows who made that decision. It was, I mean, it might have just been the vicar too embarrassed and not knowing.

It might have been the vicar's decision. All those things happened so quickly. You know, she died in the early hours of the morning, as far as I can remember, and this was a sort of ten o'clock service. But she could be steely. I mean, particularly when the monarchy was threatened. She was pretty steely with Prince Andrew if you remember quite recently when she stripped him of all his sort of titles and regimental offices and things like that. Before it was decided whether he was going on trial or not so that could have jeopardised it.

She was pretty steely with Prince Harry. I have a quite long chapter on her and racing and actually there was a moment in the racing when one of her trainers, her main trainer, had an accident and was paralyzed and his Arab Arab owners stuck with him and the Queen sacked him which also meant he had to give up his house. She then did what we in journalism call a reverse ferret and changed her mind about it. But it showed, I think that showed how much she loved racing and how much she wanted to win and she just made this foolish decision. Do you think that you would be able to write the same book in the future about William when he becomes king? Or is something changed in our relationship?

Well I'd hope I wouldn't because I hate the idea of becoming a royal expert you know you see them on television, you probably have them on this show. We have many of them. We have our own podcast about the royal family here at the time. But I'm inches away from becoming a royal expert and I don't want to end up as a royal expert. But as a concept I think. Well I'm William, well the Queen was in the public eye for 96 years and she reigned for how many, you know, 75. And so she's particularly peculiar her life and the way Britain changed and the world changed which I also sort of chronicled in the book and I might be the same of William when he's her age or

when he does but I suspect I suspect he won't I think but who knows you know but I think the deference has changed hasn't it I mean you've got a fantastic couple of chapters one of them where you just detail the number of times that people have called the Queen radiant. And it was on and on and on. I know and people did invest her with sort of mystical powers. I mean even the people who were against her like Chris Mullin the MP or John Prescott, they all thought oh she could in a way read their minds.

I mean Chris Mullin, completely sensible man, looked over at a large lunch party and Queen was a few tables away and thought she was looking at him with daggers because he'd written something rude in his last collection of diaries. Completely bonkers idea but people still, so whether you were for or against her, she had entered people's psyches. Yeah, and there was a fantastic little anecdote about the guide in Kenya who believed that on revisiting treetops, her deification had reached such heights that she could get a buffalo to lie down. Yes, yes. Actually on The Crown, the TV series, which wasn't much good, they they sort of recreated that in ways, if it at all happened.

Yeah, it was very odd and I mean, and it goes back to, you know, medieval times where people thought they could be cured by the king's touch. And they did in a way think that with the Queen. And even after she died, people were sort of seeing her face in clouds and and that sort of or in a Breaking wave that final well not the final chapter actually but the chapter about her death Is both incredibly poignant and I confess that even reading it today I quite welled up when I relived the actual day of yeah But you're right people were seeing her in cloud formations, the amount of PR guff spewing forth. There's a drug dealer in Brixton, I quote, giving out this ad, you know, 20% off whatever drug it was, in honour of Her Majesty.

Things like primary schools cancelling guinea pig awareness week as a mark of respect. And things like bike racks closing. And supermarkets turning off the beeping on their machines. The shoppers couldn't work out what was going on. And that wouldn't happen with Prince William you see and I doubt if people dream about Prince William certainly not to that extent I mean because people's dreams tended to be about, I mean, I had them, you're either naked or you're half-dressed or you're really shabby and I think now William goes round in a baseball cap and things like that. There isn't that, I mean, first there isn't the

class structure, but there isn't that difference. Well, it's an absolutely fantastic, fantastic book and Jane's right, you know, there is poignancy but there's also just some revelation that is proper laugh out loud, funny and I mean I hope that people did get 20% off the drugs of their choice on the day that our great monarch died. We're all her subjects. Let's do very, very, very best. Radio for sign off. Craig Brown, of course. Craig Brown, now you and yours.

Is your washing machine stuck? Do you have £75,000 in an ice-up? No! Get on with it, we'll never ever work there again. No, well I know that. Not at this rate. I just wanted to leave our listeners with thoughts of this and see if we can do something clever. So here we go. This is from Marie. He says, really sorry, it's me again. Never apologize, Marie. I just had to send you this Insta advert story after your belly fat one, which incidentally I get all the time. I'm glad. Such a horrible illustration as well. It is. It explain what they send you. They send you an image of somebody seeping over

their particulars. Someone whose belly fat is falling over the cliff of their pelvis. Like a great big bucket of blamont. It's really revolting. Marie carries on. I was having a chat with a friend who was telling me about a radio presenter and journalist whose father was a prosecutor for keeping a brothel. We do know who that is but we won't bang on about it. I suppose we must have said the words brothel keeper several times. The result was the following day I kept getting adverts on Insta for the shoes originally worn by teddy boys in the 1950s.

Yes, brothel creepers. I just, it's spooky. Yeah, beyond. Let's get our own back on our smart speakers and the microphones in our smartphones and think of some funny things that we could keep talking about so we get really fantastic, wonderful, nice adverts because I want to change my belly fat thing that keeps on coming at me. So, you know, we can do a little bit of hive work here. We can come up with some funny things that we can discuss that will change the direction of the algorithm. I'll leave you with that challenge.

And my challenge is send us details of your toe-curling meetings with royalty, which Craig Brown writes about in some detail in his book. meetings with royalty, which Craig Brown writes about in some detail in his book. Did you ever have an incredibly awkward or attempt at a conversation with a member of the Royal Family? Well, it'll give me a chance to retell my I had to stand behind a door at Buckingham Palace anecdote. It never fails. I'm surprised Craig didn't include it.

We've always got the People's Play Awards. Right, have a lovely couple of days, we're back on Monday. It is Jane O'Fee at times.radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offer is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Music