Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Is there ANYTHING good about our lives? (with Mary Beard)

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Dancing over the fog-horn testing centre, Jane and Fi are covering about a 'billionty' other topics, from eating marmalade straight from the jar, and the state of the toilets at London Euston Station.Jane and Fi are joined by the classicist Mary Beard, to discuss the paperback edition of her latest bestseller 'Emperor of Rome'Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeePodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I couldn't resist it, Jo. I'm sorry, I couldn't. Just come out. Just came out. I'll tell you what we should do before Kate comes in, is we should read a little bit of the email that's from Kate's mum. Well, we could do. Yeah, go on then.

Because we should say it's our producer colleague Kate's last day. It is. And we met Kate, our colleague's mum, didn't we? In Cheltenham. Yeah. At the Literary Festival. Oh, by the way. Yes.

We're going there again, aren't we? We are. So look out Cheltenham. And we've got a cracking couple of guests. Can you remember who it is, Jane? No, I can't. It is Brenda Blethen and Anne Cleaves. Oh, wow.

In that case, I really can't wait. Yeah, it's going to be superb. Is that late September or October? It's October. It's October. Get your tickets now for that event at the Cheltenham Literary Festival. But we are very sad to say goodbye to Kate Lee. We very much enjoyed her production of the programme and the podcast.

And we very much enjoyed meeting your mum and yes she has written to us Kate's now just walked into the studio are you going a bit pink and we are going to give her a tote bag as well so I mean I think that's been worth it actually don't you think Kate very much so well it's been noticed by us and also by your mum who is a completely objective observer yeah as all mums are. Now, before I forget, can we just say hello as well to Faye, who I bumped into as I was leaving Times Towers last week, and she came over and she said,

I'm doing that spooky thing, I'm listening to you on the podcast, and here you are in real life. And Faye then identified herself as a previous correspondent who had written to us about having an 11 pound baby and you know what so we did we did you want to put her in a different light i looked her up and down i said lord you look very good for it she's tiny she's as small as us and she was walking and talking and everything well done faye yeah but honestly an 11 pound baby she's minute uh but it was lovely to meet you, Faye.

And I think sometimes when you actually meet people who you're talking to, it's just really annoying. It's better to keep people in a kind of box of the imagination. So, you know, I hope it wasn't too disappointing. No. But actually, that's reminded me. I'm sure you weren't disappointed. I wanted to say hello to Helena, who I met at St Pancras Station in June.

Helena was on her way to one of the England matches at Euro 2024. She was a massive, fervent England fan. And Helena, I know it didn't quite go your way in the end. I was thinking of you, though, for what it's worth, at full time on Sunday night. So just to say hello. And I do remember meeting you. So I hope you enjoyed your trips out there anyway. Well, I wonder, do you then manage to just kind of change gear and put the results in a box and, you know,

go and buy some nice travel size Clarins items and duty free and pretend that you've had a nice weekend away? I don't know. Perhaps you can trick yourself into thinking that. I don't know. But listen, the Lionesses have qualified for the women's euros next summer so we've got that to look forward to come on we certainly do keep it light is the sign off from marie i like that uh dear jane and fee uh thank you for reading out my email regarding the l word

a few thoughts on the repurposing of industrial farm buildings into accommodation i was really hoping somebody would contact us on that subject well i know thank god they have marie says have you ever been to dungeness on the kent coast you know i haven't and i'd like to well you should go there it's littered with refurbed industrial and military buildings one of which is a former foghorn testing station and has been transformed into a unique holiday home. We stayed there a couple of years ago. The current price is £600 a night. And it's dawning on me what luxury means in this context. Be prepared to be confronted with a confusing array of,

I never know how to say it, miele, meal, kitchen appliances, lighting. Miele. Oh, thank you. I knew you'd know. I think. Lighting, which has gone way beyond just flicking a switch, and bathing facilities for which conventional taps are an anathema.

Don't get me wrong, it was all very lovely and very high-end, but to be honest, a bit of a challenge. The bath, which was square and wooden, teak to be exact, based on a Japanese design, was a bit like climbing into a luxurious packing crate, minus the splinters. The sides were very high, my legs were very short, was a bit like climbing into a luxurious packing crate, minus the splinters. The sides are very high, my legs are very short, not a great combination.

When I finally got inside, I looked like one of the borrowers. Seriously, though, it was all beautifully executed. It's an amazing place to stay, definitely not to everyone's liking, but on reflection probably falls into the luxury category based on the swanky appliances alone. Looking at the comments in the guest book, a previous visitor sounded a little disgruntled.

Not enough toilet paper, no cleaning materials, not enough soap. It was written in pencil, so we changed the word soap to sex. That's so childish, but worth doing. And they will have left with a real song in their heart won't they absolutely brilliant yeah um yeah uh it was the you slightly danced over the foghorn testing now i think we honestly do need to know more about that and presumably the locals just got

used to the foghorn being tested did they they? Well, maybe it's just miles from anywhere. I mean, Dungeness is quite remote, isn't it? It's quite bleak. It's near Southwold, isn't it? I believe so. Yeah, the place that we'll always remember as the place where we couldn't get chips. Well, also we couldn't get out of. The next morning, we just couldn't get out.

Well, it was hard to find a taxi. But look, we're back now. But if you do know any more about the foghorn testing center and perhaps you also have the good fortune to live close to a current or former foghorn testing center we would love to hear from you and do they exist abroad uh jane and fee at times dot radio foghorns umoghorns are, well, they're let off by ships and boats, aren't they? They're not... Yes. They're not required in any other environment, are they?

No. It's purely maritime. What's the logic of the testing centre on land? I'm so baffled by the whole thing. Yeah, we do need to know a bit more, you're right. Now, we do get WhatsApps to the live radio show in the afternoon, and we were talking today about railways, and specifically our new government here in Britain

introducing the re-nationalisation of Britain's rail network. And you only have to have lived in Britain for about 20 seconds to know that railways can be a little bit of a contentious subject. We're all being encouraged to get out of the car and use public transport, but railways can slightly let you down. It's not the people involved I'm very keen to say. The staff are usually great, but there are all sorts of logistical issues

with Britain's railway network. But I just love this WhatsApp message from a listener called Iceman, who says he's got fond memories of British high-speed rail. I remember Euston to Birmingham on the breakfast special back in the early 80s. You got a great English breakfast accompanied by Cooper's old-style thick-cut marmalade. An American colleague, discovering this for the very first time, ate a whole jar with a spoon.

Oh, my word. That's very wrong, but also quite interesting. So I'd like to know what impact that whole jar of great English Cooper's old style thick cut marmalade had on your American colleague Iceman and whether he's still with us. I do wonder why railway toilets have to be quite so disgusting? In a world where we're quite keen on sanitisation, why is a train toilet just the scene of absolute chaos and disaster? Couldn't something... Well, they're not always.

I mean, I'm going to be controversial here and speak up for Avanti West. OK. Some of their toilets are all right. I've used quite a few of them over the years. Well, I understand that a train that's moving can sometimes present a problem, particularly to the male. What I will say, though, is that the toilets at London's shimmering Euston station are an utter disgrace. I mean, they are, again again not the people there who are working i see them brushing up the place as best they can but there's just something really squalid i mean

it's just not very i know euston's constantly on the verge of being refurbed but it never quite seems about 40 years it never seems to come about anyway your thoughts welcome on the renationalization of britain's rail network and actually fee's big beef was lack of bins on the train yeah so i was in germany at the weekend on trains and the german trains have an individual bin in front of every seat so there's no listen when you get off your own rubbish in your own bin and it just seemed to be such a very sensible thing to have because you try to find a bin

on a train now, you can be four carriages away from one and then it's tiny and it's absolutely stuffed because we live in a world of too much packaging. Yes, and that's ridiculous as well, isn't it? It is. Is there anything good about our life? Well, I'll tell you what's lovely

about the train journey thing though is I just find it so much better on every level than flying anywhere. And just being able to watch a country Zoom pass. Oh, yeah, I can appreciate that. Whilst listening to music of the spheres was a joyful and glorious thing. Nikki says, I'm an avid listener of the pod, great interviewer, Tiggy Walker, and it's very true what you said, that you don't know how you'll be able to cope as a carer until you directly face the situation.

If you'd asked me 10 years ago would I be able to care for my dear mum, I'd have said no. Mum would have cheerfully said that I wouldn't be able to do it right up to the week I started to do it. I was fortunate to be living off a generous redundancy package, but I cared full time for mum for just over two and a half years. As Tiggy said, you had no idea how long it would go on and it would only end one way. In the end, it was an extraordinary experience, probably for both of us. What had always been a spiky relationship, we always wondered how mothers and daughters described themselves as best friends, produced just one argument in all the time we were together 24-7. There was no respite for me as the whole period coincided with COVID, which also brought stresses about acute hospital care

and additional anxiety for mum about admissions. Waffling on now, no, you're not at all, Nicky, just to say that Tiggy's perspective totally resonates. Lots of you really enjoyed hearing from Tiggy and I think she's just so honest about the situation that her and Johnny are in and you just cannot be anything but grateful for that kind of honesty.

Because apart from anything else, Jane, I think there are just, there's so much sentiment, isn't there, attached to how those final weeks and months of life should be and we've talked about that on the podcast before and of course if you're really up against it you are someone's full-time carer when they say that you know they don't particularly like the meal that you've cooked for them you know of of course that shadow of I am losing this person that I love looms large over you but in the moment you must just want to go, oh, for heaven's sake.

Also, I think it's important that Nikki did identify there that she was doing it because she'd had that redundancy package. It's another question I often have is, how do people afford this? Because if you're living or attempting to live on a carer's allowance, good luck to you there, because there's not a lot of it. No, it's tiny, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. 80-something pounds.

Yeah, it's not a lot of money. So it's a fantastic privilege to be able to do that. That doesn't, by the way, mean it's easy. I absolutely acknowledge it is not. But keep your thoughts on that subject coming because I know a lot of you are impacted by caring in one form or another. Sue in Darlington just wanted to mention the interview with Nina Conti, the ventriloquist. She's a very, very clever woman. And she just wanted to say, I hadn't twigged that she was the daughter of Tom Conti, the actor.

Do you remember him playing the sexy Greek lover in Shirley Valentine? Well, it's interesting you say that, Sue, because I did know that she was the daughter of Tom Conti and I thought of asking her about it. And then we've been having conversations, haven't we, about how women are identified as partner of, former partner of, daughter of, wife of. And how far do we take that?

Do we always need to say, do we always need to reference a man in relation to a successful woman or a woman who's somebody of note and has got something to say? I don't know. It is difficult because I actually thought, I mean, I like Tom Connick, great actor. Could easily have mentioned him, but I decided not to. I don't know.

What would your question have been? Well, I'm just thinking, you know, he's a very successful actor. Did you become a ventriloquist because you didn't want to be an actor like your dad? I don't know. Yeah, that's a good question. What is there to ask? But we do often fall into the habit, and I do it myself, of introducing women in relation to the men to whom they are connected.

And I think maybe, sometimes in a really sad way, by the way, not always in a kind of jolly showbiz way. There have been some shocking examples recently of news stories that have attracted all sorts of attention, partly, although not entirely, because of a link to a famous man. So, you know, I just... Yeah, it's a tricky one. I don't know. I mean, tell us what you think about that, whether we should always mention their male connections or indeed for successful women that they are related to, I guess. But it doesn't happen as often,

does it? It doesn't. So send those to Jane and Fi at times.radio, subtitled for the attention of Adrian Childs. I couldn't resist it, Jane. I'm sorry, I couldn't. Just come out. Just come out. Just came out. This is Lisa who says, I always wondered what would prompt me to email. And it turns out email sign-offs is it.

Actually, I have seen Adrian Charles described as the ex-partner of Jane Garvey. Of course. Can I just say we spent a very nice day together at our daughter's graduation last week. And listen, it was genuinely nice. Yeah. Can I just ask you one question about graduation? Yes. Would that be okay? I mean, you know, we don't have to answer it if it's too personal. What's that sense that you get when you watch a child graduate from university? Oh, do you know what? It was a lovely, really lovely day. And I think now my daughter's left the institution.

I can probably name it. I always felt a bit that I didn't want to say where she was, but it's Newcastle University, which was, if anybody's got a child going to Newcastle in the autumn or thinking of going, I think it's a great city to be a student, a really great city. I mean, it's such a cliche that they're friendly people,

but they are. And again, this is just from my from my experience they there doesn't seem there seems to be a great relationship between the students and the residents there doesn't seem to be any great resentment um the students love the city they populate it they have a great time in the pubs and clubs and it just seems a brilliant place and it's not too big but it's big enough um but i mean i'd be really interested in what other people hear about think about graduations they've got a lot of ceremonies to cram into one day so i think there were three possibly even four on the day we went to our daughter's graduation and there was one free drink listen nothing wrong with a free drink and i took

it um but once you'd had it you about, I'm guessing about 15 to 20 minutes before they started flickering the lights on and off, like closing time in a pub. It was like, off! Because we've got the next lot coming in now. That's quite funny. So it was hugely enjoyable, but it did feel a little bit like a conveyor belt. I mean, but I'd be very interested indeed in hearing other people's experiences. And did somebody give a marvellous speech? Because often the person who's getting an honorary degree gives a speech.

There wasn't an honorary degree given at the ceremony that I was at because they do differ. But one of the people who'd been given an honorary degree by that university that week was Ed Vasey. Our colleague. Look, I would have been... It would have been lovely to see him. Very much.

Yeah, I'm sorry I missed it, Ed. I think I only escaped by about 24 hours, by the way. If I'd gone the day before, I would have been present. And did he make a speech? Oh, he must have done, yeah. Let's ask him about it. Yeah, we will. Lisa has joined in our conversations about email sign-offs.

I always wondered what would prompt me to email, and it turns out sign-offs is it. I usually use thanks or BW. Best wishes. BW. Best wishes. However, if I feel like confusing someone, I use TTFN, which never fails to entertain me.

I'm a hard-working NHS doctor so I get my kicks where I can and Lisa signs off with thanks and bw and a ttfn please could we have a tote bag because her friend introduced her to us while we're at the other place and we have both followed you well I think I'm going to say a big fat yes to that, Lisa, and put it on the pile for when Eve returns from her sunshine holiday abroad. This is from a regular correspondent of ours, Nafisa, and it's just about how she personally is feeling better since the change of government in Britain. Now, plenty of people did vote for that change of government. Loads of people didn't. So you and I sit very firmly on the fence, don't we, in terms of... Well, we're very impartial.

We're utterly impartial. We've retained our impartiality. Up to a point. Well, we've retained our impartiality on politics, more or less, sort of. But where I do agree, I can't completely relate to what you're saying, Nafisa, but what I will say is, and I don't think I'm alone here, that this extraordinary Donald Trump resurgence, I'm going to call it,

in the light of the truly diabolical attempt on his life, by the way, we absolutely, totally say that. It was appalling and terrible. But I am, I feel, I do, if I'm honest, I feel gaslit by that man's omnipresence and by the fact that his success in November appears to be pretty much guaranteed and I think for a lot of women in particular though clearly not all because he's got plenty of female supporters this is just such a blow I mean I really do feel it physically I feel genuinely just outraged by it I would completely agree and and actually we had this conversation on the uh the breakfast show at

the beginning of the week, it was the day after the assassination attempt. And I can't imagine how painful it would have been to be waking up to that news, if you've been a victim of Donald Trump, because the idea that he has achieved heroic status through the attempted assassination and therefore and this is where my scales of moral justice just simply don't balance at all that would somehow exonerate him from everything he's done and said from his previous crimes and they're not victimless crimes and you know the fact that he might have a criminal conviction because of money involved in trying to cover up an infidelity and silence a woman, you know, I find the whole thing just incredibly distasteful, very hard to unpick in my head. And you're right to say, you know, there's nothing,

absolutely nothing, you know, that means that any of us should condone what the shooter was trying to achieve. But it doesn't change what the man is and what the man was. And even if it did change, even if it acted as a Damascene conversion in his behaviour, it would only be reasonable to accept that new face of Donald Trump if he was to apologise for everything that he's done before. And he's not because he's come out going fight, fight, fight and he's basking in the adoration of surviving.

It's just weird. It's really weird. And I'm finding it quite unsettling. However, Fi, we haven't heard his speech. We're not going to hear that till Thursday night. So we won't have a chance to reflect upon it, she said, pompously until next week. But it will be interesting to see whether

he is in any way changed by what's happened and and the point also is about being able to reset the political discourse isn't it and to ask for calm to completely condemn violence and you can do that in a speech to you know the the faithful at the republican convention he can do that if he chooses to but i don't think he feels that he needs to i don't think he feels that he needs to say i shouldn't have said some of the very provocative things that i've said in my political lifetime i shouldn't have done some of the things that i've done uh you know let's all take a step back together i don't think he's going to do that. Gosh, I don't think he will either. But it would be a better world if he did take advantage.

And Joe Biden has apologised for using the term bullseye, but actually only when pressed. So he didn't volunteer that he was pressed during an interview. But he did say, I shouldn't have used those terms. And we should all be terms and we should all be careful we should all be careful about those metaphors and analogies and you know I suppose if you're on such a massive platform you have to think about how the most vulnerable or the most mentally imbalanced people might take your words if you're being metaphorical but somebody thinks that's a literally a call to arms so it is very shocking Jane all this has just made me realize not for the first time that I do not understand

America I just don't understand it is laughable that just because we do speak the same language that there is any real connection I just feel completely distant from a country that is clearly mind-bogglingly complicated, but contains so many brilliant and capable people. Yeah, Ben has a really generous heart. Yeah, oh no, absolutely. And anyway, I think we're entering a geopolitical territory, which we are poorly equipped to deal with. Did you bring me those bin bags? No, and I remember... Have you ordered them? Yeah, no, I remembered on the way to the station this morning, and I was just a little bit tardy, so I didn't have time to go back and get them. But also, can we say a huge thank you to the correspondent and I'll try and find

your specific email to give you a name check tomorrow, who suggested that we add a dishwasher tablet to our soaking of our whites in order to get them really super white now that's the kind of top domestic tip that we're after oh what you say you stick a dishwasher capsule in the in the drawer yes just no in the when you do your soaking into the barrel and well i think you're soaking your whites overnight before you're putting them onto your three-hour eco wash yeah doing that yeah and the other top tip that i learned actually from sarah bey, from one of her, bear with me, you'll be using it. Don't affect the sigh of boredom. Not quite yet.

Was to gently heat your oven or use up the residue heat from a very hot oven. And if you've got a very, very dirty pan, just fill it with water, put a dishwasher tablet in it, shove it all in the oven, and it lifts off all of the marks and scrapes and you know the tough stuff that you couldn't get off without scouring which might hurt your delicate hands oh my goodness this is i mean we've covered some ground in this started with foghorn testing. We did briefly enter... I genuinely don't think there's any other podcast that does this.

If you know of a more diverse content podcast, please let us know at the usual address. Now, I have interviewed Mary Beard. I was thinking about this. I don't know why I did it. You're the one who did the degree in... Classics. So where were you?

Well, because this week I took the challenge of Rob Rinder. Oh, OK. And And I don't know who else you've interviewed. It doesn't matter. So Mary Beard is always just so, so interesting. I mean, I really, I could talk to her for hours and hours. Let's bring in Britain's favourite classicist. It is, well, she's the best classicist, let's be honest. It's Mary Beard. Now there's a lot going on in 2024, but let's just indulge ourselves and plunge into history. And the classicist Mary Beard has a new bestseller, it's Emperor of Rome, and it's out now in paperback. And if you want a really informative

poolside companion over the summer, you could do a lot, lot worse than this. This is a book full of nuggets about power, how it was achieved, how it was wielded by men who were vulnerable, terrifying and cruel, and sometimes all three. I asked Mary how a man became Roman Emperor. It kind of helped. If you wanted to be the next emperor, it certainly helped to be the son of the previous one. That's absolutely true. But we're used to a system of, you know, we call primogeniture, where the eldest child, usually the eldest son until recently, is the person who succeeds to the throne or to the duchy or whatever. Now, there's quite a lot of advantages to that. We're used to it. And, you know, one advantage is that we know for sure who's coming next. You know, we know that Prince William, barring tragedy and accident, is going to take over the throne from King Charles. The disadvantage of it is that, and I'm not talking about William here, the disadvantage is you might get some complete hopeless character on the throne who gets there just because he is the eldest son. Now, the Romans never had a system of primogeniture, really for anything.

And that gave them, when it came to who comes next in imperial power, gave them a bit more choice around the extended family, sometimes outside the family entirely. The disadvantage of that was, is it was always uncertain. Who's going to come next? Well, is so-and-so in favour or is it that man? And part of the sort of viciousness of the Roman imperial court, and it was pretty vicious, is down to that. You know, who is going to be the next emperor?

Who is going to be bumped off to make sure that they're not the next emperor? So you gain flexibility, but at the cost of suspicion and wheeler dealing. Well, you start the book with an emperor I'd never heard of. wheeler dealing. Well, you start the book with an emperor I'd never heard of. And it was also a really brilliant illustration of the relative diversity of Roman emperors. So just tell people about that very first character, who was essentially a Syrian. Is that correct? Yeah, Syrian teenager. Now, I have to say, he's called Elagabalus. He's one of the stars of the rotten Romans in horrible histories. You know, as you say, he's a sign of the diversity of the Roman Empire. He's of Syrian origin and he's a teenager.

And I think what that reminds us of is that our kind of image from the movies of all Roman emperors being kind of basically old white men in togas simply isn't true. Roman empire is vast, stretching from Syria to Spain. And as time goes on, it draws its rulers from all those imperial territories. So we have to kind of rethink our picture of what a Roman emperor is Septimius Severus for example came from modern Libya Trajan and Hadrian come from Spain but I think what for me was fascinating about Elagabalus and why I wanted to start the book with him was partly because, apart from the horrible histories crowd, most people haven't heard of him. And I thought it's a good idea to say, look, it doesn't matter whether you've heard of this guy or not, you can get quite a lot out of his story. But also, he becomes a kind of extreme example. It's probably partly gossip and fiction, not truth, I think. He becomes an

extreme example of just how bad a Roman emperor could be. Now, quite a lot of people, particularly those who've watched iClaudius and things, will know about Caligula, a bit later Nero. Elagabalus makes that pair look like pussycats, really. So Ella Gablis makes that pair look like pussycats, really. Well, I mean, we just need some stories. Is it true he suffocated people with rose petals? He does. On one occasion, it is said, he invites his mates to dinner, rather posh mates, and at the end of the evening,

to show how generous he is, the ceilings open and rose petals fall from them and they fall down onto the guests below. But in such profusion that the poor guests smother and die. Look, even if these stories are not true, even if they're not actually about the real cut and thrust of the imperial dinner, the fact that people tell them, the fact that they get repeated and repeated, take you into what is really a kind of Roman version of how they thought about Roman emperors, just as our celeb gossip takes us into a version of how we think that celebs or Harry and Meghan live, you know, so it's a kind of, it's a window into people's fear of emperors, fear of how emperors might behave, fear that, in the case of the rose petals, I think, fear that when emperors are really, really generous to you, they might actually kill you. It's about the ambivalence of imperial power.

The book is absolutely fascinating too on the imagery of emperors and how that was controlled because lots of them had all kinds of ailments, physical deformities, pockmarked faces, but that's not how we see them now. No, I think when people go to museums and they see rows of Roman emperor busts all lined up, I think most people's reaction is to say, I can't tell one from the other. They all look just more or less the same. OK, sometimes you find they've got beards, sometimes they haven't. But otherwise, they are all perfect, youthful, very kind of classical looking. And I think that's really interesting, actually, because they didn't all look the same. And we have descriptions of them. And as you say, look, they've got nasty spots and

yet worse, horrible hernias, which are certainly never in show. The Romans really were the first branded PR operation. There are literally thousands upon thousands of images of them, which they sent right across the empire, because of course, most people would never have seen the emperor. They're also on the coins, you know, the first person, the first monarch, because this is really what they are, first monarch to have his image systematically on Roman coins is Julius Caesar. And we still assume that's the case, we still associate ruler's head with coins. Well, it started with Caesar. And we still assume that's the case. We still associate ruler's head with coins. Well, it started with Caesar. And what about women? I mean, there clearly were no female

emperors. Were there any influential female, I don't know, people who may in some way have dictated policy or opinion? Guardedly, the answer is yes, I think to that. But guardedly, it's certainly the case that Roman women under the period of one man rule of the Julius season throughout the rest of Roman history, that those women were much more powerful, or a few women were much more powerful than women had ever been before that in ancient Rome. But they're powerful largely because in a system of one-man rule, whoever has the ear of the emperor is de facto powerful. If you're sharing the emperor's bed, you get a chance to say, look, darling, I really think that we ought to be doing this, this and this. The problem is that a lot of Roman writers and a lot

of modern writers looking back think they're much more influential than that. And that really, they are absolutely their classic powers behind the throne. They're manipulating. They've got policy objectives. And that's an absolute cliche of the relatives of the Roman emperor. And it might be. It might be. It might be true. But I suspect there's a good dose of misogyny in that image. Yes, I can well imagine that might well be true.

I just want to get you to briefly, well, you might not agree that you are debunking the myth, but talk about the philosophical, I think you refer to them as jottings, of actually the man who's now arguably the most famous of all Roman emperors. Tell us about him. Well, Marcus Aurelius, who's emperor in the late second century CE. I mean, now he remains a bestseller. You know, he's still on the bestsellers list with a very peculiar work that he wrote, for reasons we don't fully know, which often has the kind of very grand title of Meditations. And a lot of very powerful men swear by him, don't they?

A lot of very powerful men swear by him, don't they? They do. President Clinton was supposed to hold a copy of this meditations book by his bedside. And, you know, you go online and you can find people swearing by Marcus Aurelius as, it's usually men, you know, as a fantastic handbook for, you know, whether you're in business or in politics or whatever. Now, I have some admiration for Marcus Aurelius in a way, but not for the meditations. Because I decided to, you know, take them down a peg or two. And I call them, because we don't know what he called them, actually. Meditations is a modern title. I call them jottings.

And I do point out that actually, you know, if you read them with the cynical eye that Beard has, they are, you know, I'm afraid some of the kind of worst, cheapest sort of cliched self-help advice. I've just been watching some of the images of the state opening of Parliament. And, you know, we're talking about the trappings of power, ancient Rome. How do you feel about Britain in this moment? Are you sort of mildly optimistic, feeling a little happier than you might have felt a couple of weeks ago?

What is it? I'm a lot happier than I felt a couple of weeks ago. And I, you know, everything seems to be, you know, seems to be looking up. I mean, I suppose I say, you know, if I'd been Keir Starmer, I would have had a fantastic, I'm sure he did, I would have a real plan for my first 100 days, I'm not going to be caught out unawares, and I'm going to know what we're going to do. And everything is going to be well organised. And, you know'm going to know what we're going to do and everything is going to be well organized and you know all credit to him I think that that so far you know things look as if things look as if someone's got a grip you know that's what I want to know now I think

the real test and I hope he passes it uh and the rest of his administration and it's great that's good there's a lot more um a more women and a lot more diversity in his administration than we saw before. But I very much hope that when things get more unexpected and we reach even rougher waters and we haven't got the plan all written out, I'm hoping and I'm optimistic about this, that he'll handle the bad times as well as this. Mary Beard, who I think it's fair to say, shares some of our misgivings about a possible second run in the White House for Donald Trump. I can't bear this J Trump thing.

It really annoys me. It's one of so many. It's very trivial, but that's just one of any billionty, billionty things that annoy me about that man. Well, are you going to get annoyed with J.D. Vance? Oh, God, I'm already incredibly annoyed. And I've quite deliberately not read his book. I was thinking of reading it when it first came out, but now he can forget it.

That's not happening. OK. Right, well, he'll feel that pain. Even as I speak, it'll be barnstorming up the bestsellers again. Yeah, it will be. I think there's a Netflix film of it as well, isn't there? Yeah, there is with that. I think Glenn Close.

Yeah. Yeah, Glenn Close plays his grandma, I think. I think that's right. If anyone's seen that or indeed read the book, let us know, actually. I'm watching the fantastic High Country on the BBC, which was the Australian TV drama that was so highly recommended,

I was thinking about getting my international VPN. I know you remember that episode, it's one of my favourites. And I'm liking it, but oh blimey, she goes off into the woods by herself all the time. I mean, I'm hoarse from crying, call for backup at that woman.

She's asking for trouble. I mean, she is actually asking for trouble. Very, very spooky countryside. It's the Australian... High country. Is it called Alps actually asking for trouble. Very, very spooky countryside. It's the Australian... High Country. Is it called the Alps, though, they call it? Do they call it the Alps? Well, I think they just call it the High Country. OK. It's very literal, isn't it?

It is very literal. But I'm enjoying it very much. It's got a lot of twisty-turny bits in it and so many characters. I can't keep up and I can't see the ending coming towards me at all but I'm really, really enjoying it so I would recommend that. I mean it's bingeable, watchable, sink into the

sofa-able. Yeah, well they say high country, I mean to be fair we called is it Holland and, we've called Holland and Belgium the low countries for years which is a bit patronising, which is a bit sorry about that, didn't think we got any listeners there so you're probably okay. Jane O'Fee at Times.Radio.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free times radio app. Off-air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.