Off Air... with Jane and Fi - It is odd that he didn't have any genitalia (with Sathnam Sanghera)

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Jane and Fi talk cat wounds, mint chocolate buttons and sliding into DMs...They're joined by journalist and writer Sathnam Sanghera to talk about his new book 'Stolen History' .If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow our instagram! @JaneandFiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Right, we're on and welcome.

It's Wednesday's Off Air and I hope we find you well. I've actually eaten too many of those. Just a product. I really actually eaten too many of those. Just a product. I really do want to recommend those, seriously. They're Marks & Spencer's Gigantic. I think they are called Gigantic. Or is it Giant Chocolate Buttons? Giant Chocolate Buttons. And you started the trend

because you kept on bringing in the orange ones. I don't like orange chocolate. So I thought I'd go my own way and bring in the mint ones. And it turns out you like the mint ones more. I do like the mint ones more. And I would never like orange chocolate. So I thought I'd go my own way and bring in the mint ones. And it turns out you like the mint ones more. I do like the mint ones more. And I would never have bought them. So thank you for introducing them to me.

That's quite all right. It's a genuine thanks. You can take the packet home with you if you like, because I found them not as nice as I thought. Do you remember a mint cracknall? Yeah, that's what it is. They've got bits of mint cracknall in the... I did love a mint cracknall.

Yeah, I like these more. A lot more. A lot more. Thank you for following us on the ground, as the young people call it. It's going up, isn't it? It is going up. I mean, a little slower than I think some huge celebrities find.

So if we're on about 2,000 now, how many more do we have to get to get up to holly willoughby's 8.2 million well we need to get 8.1 million nine hundred and ninety eight thousand so there's billions of people in the world we can do it do you think we need to get one of those bots that just kind of sweeps up like a basking shark with plankton, just goes all around the world, just pulling in followers. I've got 4,764 followers in Latvia. Of course I have. Yeah, absolutely. Of course you have.

So it's at Jane and Fee, all one word, if you want to join in the fun on Instagram. Yeah, but you see, that's the problem, because we can ask people to follow us, and it's very kind of you to have, but most people, they join for content content and there's very little content at the moment but we're working on it we've got a lot of very heavy schedule um so we will get around to it but every every follower counts and you have been dming us uh you've slid into our dms which we also really appreciate um i'll read a few of these now uh jane it says i'm a y Yorkshire-born Jane, same vintage as the other Jane, living in Sydney.

It just makes me feel like I'm back home listening to you two wiggle on together. So thank you for that, Jane. What about this? Darby Jane, another Jane. Can't believe how much I dig your show. Does that age me? A little.

I listen to the podcast all the time from Chicago, formerly from Darby. I'm a long way from home, and you do help to bridge the gap. The humour's brilliant and you make my day. And have you seen the cat wound? I've not seen the cat wound, no. This is from Starlight Hollow. I can't tell you how you've got me through. Well, you just have, and we are very grateful. And Jane's had a, not this Jane, she isn't called Jane, she's one of

the few people not called Jane. Her initial is actually M. I just want to say, she says, that I had developed a serious infection from a cat wound that my own cat gave me unintentionally as I rescued it from a dog that was attacking it in my garden. But I ended up on a Covid ward. I had a slight cough. In good faith and for the sake of others, I thought that the A&E people should know about it. Right. To the point, my menopause discovery to share. There's a lot going on in this, dear. I'm slightly lost already, but yes.

Leaky bladder spasms. If you're suffering, try eating two handfuls of pumpkin seeds and a couple of dried cranberries every day for me it's worked miracles after years of trouble give it a go i think that's very wise advice i mean i can't think that a couple of what was it pumpkin seeds and some dried cranberries can do you any harm two handfuls of pumpkin seeds it's quite a lot depending on the size of the hand but you know i'm with who's our correspondent m no yes m m yeah quite a lot, depending on the size of the hand But you know what, I'm with, who's our correspondent?

Em? No, yes, Em So I'm with them on the cat thing So my next door neighbour's cat bit my hand once, Jane, and I didn't take it very seriously Oh no, you should And then we went on a day trip to Malden in Essex Stop me when the detail gets too much Is that the place where the salt comes?

Yes it is It's actually rather interesting, isn't it? It is very interesting indeed And on the way back from the day trip, I looked down um in the car and my vein or artery whichever it was was it was just kind of throbbing and red all the way up my arm yeah now you did take action at that point i hope so we went to an a and e and i thought i'm bothering them you know there's just a cat bite i'm just bothering them and they they went, right, get in. Jabs here, jabs there and everything.

And the huge problem is if it gets to your heart. Right. I know. So take it seriously. Take it very seriously. There is actually an article in the Times today, isn't there? Carol Midgley has been bitten by her cat. Oh, my God. What's happening here?

Well, I know there's a spite. There's a spate. Well, yours is a cat bite anecdote. Well, mine was from a very long time ago. Yeah, I know. And my cat takes regular nibbles at any human being who comes within her area. And is Carol Midgley all right?

Yes, she is all right. Well, she was well enough to file a column. I know, but we all know we're doing that at death's door sometimes, Jane. Darling, the radio times. I'm there, typing away times, I'm there typing away and I'm almost taking my last breath. But I'm a proper working journalist.

Yep, I'll be whirring down the cremation platform still finding my copy, love. How's it going over at the Waitrose Bugle? It's going very well, actually. Do you know what I did write this week about that Apple VR headset? Oh, did you yeah because well because i am quite resistant to those kind of things and i get a little bit of a cob on when a company like apple launches a product and it makes the news i just find that weird i mean

back in the day when the four capri first came off the production line i say what i had some good times in a full cabri was it on news at nine i don't think it was so there's that but actually might have been on tomorrow as well it might have been but the vr headset i think when you and i are very elderly will be a glorious and wonderful thing when you can no longer leave the house or you're just too infirm or you know whatever it is uh it will be glorious to think right where should i go i'll take a bit of a walk along the great wall of china that would be absolutely lovely you know i'll sit and have a chat with gwyneth about toning my upper arms whatever it is so then it will be absolutely

wonderful so i want those things to be there but i don't want them to be in my kids lives to be honest because i think you can see perfection. And what's the point? Because then when you take the headset off, the world is very blurry around the edges, and so it should be. So I think it's just the wrong way round for me. Well, we talked to a correspondent today, didn't we,

with Stuart, who had used this new Apple headset. And he, I mean, it was a brilliant description. And actually, I was really glad that he told us what it was he saw. He was obviously just given an example. And it was, he saw a butterfly that perched on his finger, appeared to actually be on his finger. And then he saw an enormous dinosaur.

And I put it to you that you could just go out, even onto my artificial grass and see a butterfly. Interestingly, not a dinosaur. But that's only now last year it would have been who knows what lies next to in next door's extension if those bloody scaffolders don't shut up i tell you what i think they finally finished so that dopamine hit of nature you know a beautiful butterfly has just settled on my finger, wow does it matter to you

that that wouldn't be a real experience, it would be a virtual experience, if you get the same hit in the part of your brain I don't see how you can get the same hit no well I don't either, but I think we've been quite long in the world without these things

and I just don't I wouldn't want to live in a world where my experience of all of those things was quite so easy to get, actually. Well, I say easy to get $3,500. It's not that easy. Not that easy. No. No. Anyway, thoughts on that would be very, very welcome. This one comes from Alice, and I know that this made you laugh too.

It's the one about being at the, is it the Hay Festival? It is. Please put this at the bottom of the list since you've read out two of my emails and Soprano Penny from Perth will get annoyed. Well, it was a good one, this one. Yeah, and also, I mean, I'm not being vindictive here, but as soon as you put in something like that, Jane and I are bound to go,

that's a nice soprano penny from Pearl. No, we're not that horrible. No, we love soprano penny. But wanted to quickly share my Hay Festival book signing experience. A bit of context, my book, In Good Hands, The Making of a Modern Conductor, attempts to demystify the art of conducting, telling my story, and I also interviewed

17 conductors, 9 women to tip the balance. For the festival event, I shared the stage with the incredible Leah Broad, whose book quartet is fantastic, a brilliant and very readable book on a few 19th, 20th century female conductors who've been written out of history, a great music

companion to the story of art without men. I had a lovely day and everyone was very warm, friendly and positive. Just one really odd conversation I wanted to share with you. Can you do the man and I'll do her. During signing, man approaches. Why didn't you interview Lydia Tarr? Because she's a fictional character Is that your only answer? Er, yes Man stomps off and doesn't even buy a book All best, Alice Is that your only answer?

Oh dear Who would like to be inside the mind of that gentleman? Just finding out what goes on in there Actually, I shouldn't be horrible Because, do you know what? I was thinking well of men only last night. Were you?

Yes, I'd gone to... Hang on. Hang on, everybody. Stop the world. Stop the world. No, no, it does happen. You may have felt a frisson over in Chicago,

I'm interviewing... Kentucky. Sorry, we're interviewing Pat Nevin in a couple of weeks. He's another of my favourite men. Ex-footballer, of course. People will know that. Anyway, no, I was at London's shimmering Heathrow Airport

last night, picking up one of my ruddy offspring from yet another holiday or trip or whatever it was this time. And it was actually... Have you ever been to Terminal 2? God, not for years. It's the Queen's Terminal, isn't it? I don't know why there's this enormous sign on it saying... What difference does it make? Anyway, it's the Queen's Terminal, isn't it? I don't know why there's this enormous sign on it saying, what difference does it make?

Anyway, it's the Queen's Terminal. And there were two men, not one, two men waiting for women at international arrivals with absolutely beautiful bouquets of flowers. And they then proceeded to have incredibly lovely reunions, some of them involving young children. It was honestly, it was like Love Actually. And you actually, I didn't, I sort of pour scorn on that film

for any number of reasons, but the very end does slightly get to you, if you're honest, and obviously we watch it on an annual basis. And there were real scenes of that nature unfolding last night. It was really, really sweet. I don't know why you've got it in for so many men jane some of them are lovely no i haven't that's what i'm saying i'm just praising the two last night who turned up with these beautiful bouquets of flowers i mean who you're gonna have putting doubt into my head did they steal the flowers

was it were they women they were having affairs with yeah you see you bloody ruined it i didn't. Genuinely lovely. Right, I've left my emails outside, so I'm going back outside. Oh, OK. Well, hang on a second. No, no, because I know that you wanted to read that one, so take that one.

Just a short email, says Danny, in response to your chat about female versus male contraception. I take the combined pill, unfortunately, and I'm not trying to mention the other podcast. I don't get too many side effects as you probably know the pill packaging has the days of the week on it to make it easy to keep track that's true isn't it as you probably know people love losing track of the day in that funny period between christmas and new year often known as the merineum it's good

that is very very good i i really interested in danny's good, that. It's very, very good. I'm really interested in Danny's take on that period of time because I used to hate it as a kid. I now love days like the 27th and the 28th of December, which were properly shit when I was growing up because there was never anything to do, are now just lovely. I hate them now. Oh, do you?

You say, I love them. I find that no man's land between, well, it's called Twixmas as well, isn't it? No person's land. No person's land. I loathe it for exactly that reason, that I can't remember what day it is. I don't know whether or not I should eat the stuffing.

Might the pork products have gone off? No, I just love it. Is that another relative coming round? I don't like it at all james i always try and go away i actually get properly gloomy oh do you see i think i used to and now i don't because i don't mind january i like it finish the email yeah sorry um as you probably know people love losing track of the day in that period between christmas and year the merine. But I do find it rather frustrating when people, OK, in particular my boyfriend, claim in the most relaxed manner, with a mince pie and a mulled wine in hand, I've completely lost track of the days of the week.

Is it Monday or is it Friday already? And I'm just like, mate, if I lost track of days like that, we'd have so many kids by now, pal. Oh, dear. And that was the last thing she spoke. As I peel back the foil from the pill marked with what it seems like only I know is the current day of the bloody week. Right. Danny makes a good point.

Thank you, Danny. Yeah. And we want more on contraception, but obviously you've got to do your homework and watch the uh documentary which is tomorrow night on channel four yes uh thank you very much indeed to pauline for sending in some superb shots of ken and action man's feet uh listening to your stories about action Man, I've taken some photos of the feet of the Action Men. One is vintage, the other is a beefed-up modern version that sit on our mantelpiece in our dining room. I actually think the feet look quite anatomically accurate compared to other parts of their plastic bodies. Well, that's certainly true.

Yes, well, we really do. I really wanted an Action Man as a small child and cut all the hair off my older sister's Barbie. My sister wasn't happy, but was off reading just 17 as she was then a teenager. The very next Christmas, I got rock star Cindy, who had shorter hair and trousers, who then went off to have some wonderful adventures with punk Barbie. They never looked back. Well, that is a sign of the times, isn't it? Rock star Cindy and punk Barbie. And I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the feat of the times, isn't it? Rockstar Cindy and Punk Barbie.

And I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the feet of Action Man because they're not as kind of moulded as I thought. They've actually got proper moving joints, haven't they? It is odd, isn't it, that he didn't have genitals? Do you think it would just be more expensive? No, I just think it just would have been too much. And if I can be honest, Jane, I really didn't need to have testicles in my life

until the time at which testicles entered my life. No, no, I don't mean actually like moving part, but just even an outline. No, I think it was OK. Did... OK, here's a question for you. Did Barbie or Cindy have nipples? No. So they're all just moulded.

Well, I think if they were moulded, then it's fair that blokes are moulded. Would you have wanted Ken to have a penis? No, I suppose not a penis. Actually, I was talking more about Action Man. I didn't have a Ken, but I did have an Action Man. In fact, I had the Action Man with the beard. Sometimes, sometimes I do think.

I didn't realise. I just didn't realise how joyful doing this podcast would become because that is not a sentence that I ever thought I'd find myself saying at the age of 54. You don't think Radio 4 would have let you? I couldn't fit it in. And there were many programmes that I tried to work it into, Jane, but for some reason it just didn't seem to work.

I listened to all your work. There were times when I could tell that you were trying to get the sentence which you have liked getting in. Right, this is from I think particularly some of the Brexit documentaries I may could have done with that.

Do they bear hearing again, your Brexit documentaries? Well, do you know what, there was a really interesting one where we pitted the... We did it as a kind of two rooms of focus groups and the constituency that had the highest remain vote versus the constituency with the highest leave vote. And they were interesting.

And actually, I would like to go back and hear those again. I wonder, perhaps they should go back to those people and recreate them. Well, it would have been great. So one of them was just outside Brighton and one of them was in Lincolnshire. And they decided off their own back, nothing to do with us at all, that they were going to keep in touch. And I know that they did have kind of liaisons between those two communities. So they visited each other's communities on kind of, you know, days out.

And it was a really interesting discussion. You know, that was the point of it, was to listen to what they said individually and then put them all together, see whether or not they could find some common ground. Yeah. OK. I do want to talk about vaping because I... Yeah, please do.

Well, this is from Chris. I'm sounding like an old fart, but I am really worried. I mean, vaping just cannot be good, can it? Read your conversation on the increase in vaping amongst young people. A couple of years ago, a phone accessory shop in our village also started selling vapes. Then last year, in the same high street, another vape shop opened. But this one is called Candy Vapes. It sells sweets and vapes in the same place.

It beggars belief that the council has allowed this type of shop to open near to so many local schools. My children are now grown up and thankfully none of them took up smoking or vaping, but I'm worried for parents of teenagers. It really must be an absolute nightmare to navigate this added parenting issue. Yeah, I'm with you, Chris. I don't understand why vaping it's kind of it's sort of snuck into our life

without any of us apparently paying all that much attention and it's clearly just so bad for kids so bad and the fact they're allowed to have all these candy floss flavours and all the rest of it unbelievable and we did talk about it didn't we on the radio show because somebody came on and actually said

you know it's absolutely if you can't do without something and you're a heavy smoker pack in the smoking and take up vaping but do not vape if you've never smoked and of course that's exactly what's happened and they're making so much money so the imperative is not really there to change but I'm amazed just about, because I thought we'd actually done something quite good in this country

with taking away the advertising of cigarettes. And, you know, that really weird and quite ominous curtain in a newsagent's now, or the black cupboard, you know, the door is shut and you can't see whatever's behind it. And then right at the front of the counter this rainbow of vapes it's bizarre how those two things just don't add up

isn't it? You know what I'm clutching don't you? The story I mentioned I'm with you on this Jane if that is true then I don't know why everybody isn't talking I don't know why a isn't talking about it.

I don't know why a klaxon hasn't gone off across the world and everyone's just told to sit down, get yourself in front of a screen. We've got a very, very important announcement to make. Well, actually, I said earlier that I thought it was on page 10 of The Guardian. It's actually, and I'm sure it's in other papers too, it's actually on page 30. So, I don't know. The mainstream media aren't covering this fee. It's a conspiracy.

It's right. Tell us what it is. Well, it's US urged to reveal UFO evidence after claim that it has intact alien vehicles. And, you know, just that's just the headline. And we haven't got time for the full detail, but I just put it out there that fees right. If this is indeed the case, we should be talking of nothing else never mind vaping the US has been urged to disclose evidence of UFOs after a whistleblower former intelligence official said the government has possession

of intact and partially intact alien vehicles right, that's it that's the first sentence I suggest you look it up if you're remotely concerned about what that might mean. It's boggling of the mind. Yes. I mean, there have always been rumours that...

Where was that place? Rockwell? Rosewell? Rockwell. Isn't it the word? Do you mean the place in Mexico? The incident, yeah. In New Mexico. Roswell. Roswell, I think. Roswell. Roswell. Thank you, Kate. Thank you, Kate.

That place, anyway, in New Mexico, thank goodness for the young, that was where they were meant to be storing all these vehicles. I mean, honestly, I'll go to the foot of my stairs if this turns out to be completely true. I mean, you wonder whether, it would be very funny, wouldn't it, if they'd come calling in a kind of clapped-out Fiat Panda, like my first car. Or if they're still calling in a kind of clapped out Fiat Panda. Like my first car.

Or if they're still in a three-wheeled mode of transport. Like a Robin Reilly, which we gave up a long time ago. The trottemobile. But also, I'm very surprised. Can we be cynical about this? What? There have been so many times in this country where very, very bad political situations in this country where very, very bad political situations have been alleviated by the government shoving in a distraction technique and the ultimate distraction technique, I mean, in our case it's sometimes been to go to war against another country,

but the ultimate distraction technique would be aliens have landed and I cannot for the life of me understand why the US government hasn't in the past couple of years, used that as a distraction. Well, it might appeal to some of them, mightn't it? Which international leader would you most trust to greet an alien? Oh, good question. Does it have to be a current one? Yes, somebody who's around at the moment. I've got one. I would say Trudeau

because he's quite striking he looks good in a suit he's tall, he's tiggerish He's quite bouncy, isn't he? He could be awful, I'm not in Canada, I don't know but Macron? I think just because he's quite small and so if it's a little man alien

So is Rishi, we could send Rishi Then the little man alien would feel muchishi we could send rishi then the little man alien would feel much better well they may not have men they may not have men in space we don't know that's very true maybe they've just got vehicles and that's way forward isn't it get rid of humans and just have vehicles you see ai has already destroyed their universe that's why they've sent their vehicles over here i'm really tired james is making my head hurt okay i know you've got a parent's evening right why don't you introduce today's guest okay hang on a sec could you do you have the thing handy i mean i can do it without actually because it's

satnam sanghera and he's written a fantastic book which is out tomorrow if you're listening to this on the wednesday evening it's called stolenolen History, The Truth About the British Empire and How It Shaped Us. So you will remember, I hope, that Satnam Sanghera wrote quite a groundbreaking modern history called Empire Land, which I think shoved this country on a bit in a direction it needed to go in terms of recognising the place that empire should have in all of our collective histories.

So he's now written a book which is aimed at children between nine and 11, and it collates all of the facts and figures that should be on the national curriculum, actually, and then also delves into the kind of questions that you should ask about the British Empire, whether or not you should feel shame or anger and what you should do with those emotions. And it talks about contentious issues like reparation as well. So Satnam came in to tell us a little bit more about the book and about his

motivation for writing it. And I started by asking him about how much colonial history he had been taught at school. Almost nothing. There was nothing specifically about empire, but also when there was history which had an imperial element, like World War I, World War II, empire wasn't mentioned. The millions of soldiers who fought from India and Africa in both world wars, it never occurred to any of our teachers to tell our racially diverse school that we were there too. But also with the Tudors, you know, there were black people in Henry VIII's court. Elizabeth I was complaining about there being too many black people

in London in the 1600s. And I think you could incorporate imperial history into so many of the core things we teach anyway. You went to Cambridge University, didn't you? First class honours degree in English literature? Yeah. Yes. so even when you got there did you notice the absence of reference to empire totally actually i didn't even realize it i wasn't being taught it because i hadn't been taught it but i didn't study a single brown author

in my entire education until my final two terms at cambridge university which is quite damning given we are a multicultural society and also the given we are a multicultural society. And also, the reason we're a multicultural society is that we had a multicultural empire going back hundreds of years. And it's like empire ended and we just wanted to forget it even happened. Is it possible for you to work out what a difference it would have made to your childhood, your adolescence and your young adult life if you had had your background, your history, your heritage referenced within school? I think you can work out what a difference it would make to us as a nation because every three or four years there's a major

crisis about racism in this country. The Stephen Lawrence murder or Windrush and there's an official inquiry and I've read some of these inquiries. they always say one of the things we need to do is teach the history of imperialism because then we will realize we are a multicultural country because we had a multicultural empire and then there'd be less chances of us being racist but yet some something stops us from doing that in that imperial history still isn't taught particularly well it It's better than it was in my day, and maybe your day, but it's still not a priority. And do you think that a lot of that is possibly, I mean, if we were going to be sympathetic about it, a sense of shame and a desire to move on and do things better? Yeah, I think, you know, I think when we look back at our history in Britain, we want to be comforted, whereas the Germans look at their history, and they want to learn.

And there are really difficult things about imperial history. But also, I think the story of British Empire is also really complicated. People disagree about when it began, when it ended. Some people say it never even happened. It's much easier to talk about World War One, World War Two, and the Tudors, which which are very clear and we know about rather than getting into the really complicated stuff that is you know the east india company and slavery yeah so you asked this question why do true facts about the british empire inspire angry responses it's one of the questions that you write in this fantastic book. Why do they? And the thing that I said at the beginning, which when I read it, I thought that is so true.

So many conversations start in a benign sense about the empire and end up with a feeling that people have to take sides and find a kind of binary solution to that conversation. Yeah, I think it's because feelings come into it very quickly, feelings of pride and shame. A lot of people have connections to empire, either on the side of the colonised, in my case, or the colonisers. I think nearly everybody in this country, if they just dug a little deeper than the surface, would find some kind of connection, wouldn't they? Yeah, God, I'm going around speaking to schools at the moment and I always ask kids, do you have a parent who comes from abroad? And I would say around three quarters of the kids in London

have some sort of family connection to empire. And it works on both sides, of course. And so very quickly people start getting angry. Also, when you talk about British empire, you're talking about race. You're talking about white people conquering brown people and black people. And so immediately you're in one of the most toxic subjects on the planet, which is racism. What's the best question you've been asked so far whilst doing your tour? Because you're taking the book around classrooms, aren't you?

Well, as you know, if you've spoken to kids, they ask you things like, which football team do you support? How much money do you earn? How much do you earn? That's the killer. What do you say? I said many more times than my parents and uh i think what they really want satnam is an actual figure i think you have

to give the actual figure these days i might start to yeah i'm not going to tell you though no okay just because it'd be embarrassing compared to how much you earn all right um can i just ask did did the publisher or did a an agent come to you and, you need to write this book because there's a gap here? Or did you go to them and say, I would like to write a view of the British Empire that needs to be out there because, frankly, primary school kids and kids in the first year of secondary aren't being taught this stuff. And it's still the background to so many conflicts in the world, isn't it?

So if you don't know this stuff, you've never been made aware of it, you're frankly, you're at a loss. You can't understand what's happening. Yeah, exactly. The situation in Nigeria, in Pakistan, in India, in Myanmar, it all goes back to empire. But no, the story of the book was that a publisher approached me and I said, I don't want to write a kid for books

because I don't want to water down the violence because violence was part of it. And then another publisher came and I said, I don't want to write a kid for books because I don't want to water down the violence because violence was part of it. And then another publisher came and they said, you don't have to water down the violence. So I said yes. So are there, which is the most violent episode that you included? I think it's quite painful. Slavery. I mean, transatlantic slavery. You cannot get over the abuses and the violence and i think kids can answer can

handle it also they need to know i think you can't you can't water it down it's a bit like the holocaust you cannot water it down what do you think of laura trevelyan's uh recent uh donation of a hundred thousand pounds to recognize the part that her family played in slavery. She worked for the BBC, but has since, I think she's just left the BBC, hasn't she, to actually pursue this kind of path of reparation as a job. Yeah, I think what it shows is how far behind the conversation our national government is and our royal family, because the royal family have deep connections to slavery. The Royal African Company sent 180,000 Africans across the Atlantic,

more than any institution in history, and yet they're not really exploring the history, whereas aristocratic families like the Trevelyans and Alex Renton's family and even the Harewood family are volunteering this stuff and talking about reparations. And that's where the international conversation is. That's what the Caribbean countries are talking about. It's a conversation in America.

Germany has paid actual reparations, whereas we are still talking about whether empire was good or bad. And we want to talk about abolition, but not about the actual slavery that led to abolition. and do you think that there will ever come a time when a government does more openly address the issue and actually put forward money yeah i think it's going to happen and it's telling me the conversation in the next 20 years it's amazing during the coronation to see the royal family go from we don't want to talk about this we're not even going to use the coin or diamond because we don't want to raise about this, we're not even going to use the coin or diamond

because we don't want to raise the issue, to King Charles saying, actually, I'm going to commission research and we need to apologise. And, you know, the conversation moved on in just a few months. And I think the pressure is going to be relentless from abroad, but also from a new generation of people

who really care about this. but also from a new generation of people who really care about this. Voice over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. Voice over on settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.

We're speaking to Satnam Sankara about his new book, Stolen History. Now, he told us a little bit more about his experience of the coronation and whether or not he felt able to mention some of the more negative things which had been brought up in relation to the royal family. Yeah, it wasn't just people like me mentioning them, it was the Commonwealth countries. Because we have the Commonwealth, and the problem with the Commonwealth is it's never really had a meaning or a purpose. But suddenly, the Commonwealth does have a purpose. A lot of the countries want to talk about reparations, they want to talk about the legacies of slavery, and the legacies of loot

the coin or diamond the cool and diamond in south africa but that's the one subject that britain doesn't want to talk about so it's a very odd situation and you saw it play out in the coronation where you know the royals began by saying we're not going to use the coin or diamond you know let's avoid the issue but then they use the Cullinan diamond and that is highly contested in South Africa and then they won pretty much said they didn't want to talk about slavery and it kept on being raised by every commonwealth country a lot of the Caribbean countries kept on raising it in the days running up to the coronation and eventually the royal family had to say something and this is the relationship I think we we have a nation with imperial history. We try to ignore it, but the rest of the world just won't shut up. And what do you think will happen in years to come?

Because, I mean, a misstep was made when Prince William was still just Prince William and they did their tour of some Caribbean countries and they appeared in what even the kindest royal commentator would have to say was some pretty ghastly kind of colonial marching things and being carried by other people and stuff. I mean, that was very recent. It was very bad. I find it really interesting you say that because there was nothing different about that royal tour

from every other royal tour. All that changed is that we realised it was really colonial. They've always been colonial going back hundreds of years the point of royal tours was to bring the empire together right but suddenly standing on the back of a land rover touching the fingers of black children through a fence the images look really colonial and that's because even if you don't want to, you've become woke. You're now awake to what those images mean. And even everyone said, even like the royal family themselves said, it was a mistake.

And yet they had done nothing different to what they always do. I think the world has changed. So what does that mean might happen next, do you think? Well, I don't think those kind of royal tours can happen anymore. I think the the royal family are going to have to look into their history with the royal african company it's interesting to contrast them with what the dutch royal family are doing because they have gone much further they've apologized and also they've commissioned profound research they've got a

committee of historians looking into this history and they're going to report all that King Charles has done he said it's okay for one PhD student to continue with research that was already commissioned and she's going to report in 2026 it's incredibly slow and ironically the Dutch report might cover something things that the British royal family did because William III was both a Dutch prince and a British royal so they might be publishing revelations about our royal family did, because William III was both a Dutch prince and a British royal. So they might be publishing revelations about our royal family before we do. Didn't we only quite recently stop paying compensation to slave owners? That really was quite... 2015.

Right, OK. So if we did that, then we have to pay to the descendants of the people who were enslaved, don't we? Yeah, I mean mean it's still amazing that you know we were still paying slave owners until that late you know we paid 20 million pounds in compensation i think in 1833 40 percent of the national budget government budget that year a huge amount of money and not a penny to say jamaica to develop a health system to develop an education system for Barbados

to come up with alternative industries. Do you know what's boggling? Is that the families of those people who had slaves were still taking the money up to 2050. Who were they? Did they not? No, I think they got the money in bulk at that time and we were just paying off the debt because we borrowed the money. Oh, I've got you.

The shocking thing about that was the Treasury sent out a tweet congratulating themselves on having paid off the... We paid off the poor abolition, not understanding really, we were paying off the slave owners, not the slaves. Are you unpopular at all with teachers when you go into schools if they've got a trip planned to the British Museum, say, the day after you've visited? Actually, no, I'm fine.

I'm weirdly popular with teachers at the moment because a lot of them are actually decolonising their curriculums. They're not getting woke, are they? They are. The ones I see, anyway. But if you go around the British Museum, if you've done it recently, first of all, you'll see the old people looking at the artefacts. You'll see a lot of foreign tourists complaining about all the loot. And you'll see young people looking up the artefacts on their phones, seeing which ones

were stolen and from whom. And the way young people feel about museums is the way I felt, I think, about Dudley Zoo at the age of five. I didn't understand why a tiger was trapped in Dudley Zoo. It seemed a very depressing prospect for that tiger. And I think young people feel the same about artefacts in our museums. Yep. You explain very clearly the reasons why the British took things that didn't belong to them. In at number one, plain old greed. In at number two, curiosity, which is only slightly better.

Quite a few of the things, actually, I'd never seen that you talk about in the book. Was it Tipu's tiger? Have you not seen that? I haven't, no. It was a star artefact, the V&A, going back hundreds. People came from around the country to see it. It belonged to an Indian prince who took on the British Empire

and he made this automaton, I don't know if that's how you pronounce it, which showed a tiger eating an English soldier. So the British thought this symbolised everything that was evil about the Indians. But you can still see it now in the V&A. OK, and is there any argument for, I mean, especially kids going to see things like that

so they can react to it? And so if they were to see the Parthenon marbles, they can do exactly what you've described. They're looking it up on their phone and saying, this has come from a different place. You know, it then gives them something to rail against and a better understanding of wrong and right. Yeah, I mean, I don't think we should return everything that's contested. The coin or diamonds are very complicated. So many people want it back. It was stolen in itself from other people. I don't know who you give that back to.

Do you want to give back? I'll take it. I'll look after it for a while. Actually, Queen Victoria herself didn't like wearing it because she thought the story was too dark. But yeah, I mean, even if we gave back, say, half of the contested items, we'd still have a lot of stuff, like something like 2% or 1% of the British Museum's collection

is on display. You know, we've got a lot of stuff and we're not going to be empty. These museums are not going to be empty anytime soon. Satnam Sanghera and that book, and I can really, really, I think as you now say, hard recommend. It's called Stolen History, the truth about the British Empire and how it shaped us. And even if you don't have kids

or even if you're not a kid yourself it's a book that's well worth reading because it just condenses everything that you need to know really Yes, I've just had another it does and I think it's I wish something of that nature

had been around when we were at school because he's absolutely right. The truth is, we just don't. In fact, before we did the interview, I just had a very cursory Google of a family name that, well, the family has lent its name to the place in North Liverpool where my family live. And I looked it up, and sure sure enough they were slave traders I mean a lot Liverpool obviously has

a very strong association with the slave trade I guess it but why in all these years had I never wondered that I mean it's just bizarre I mean I am interested in history um and I just I do find it really quite disturbing that these things are not more widely known and not, frankly, out there and discussed and maybe challenged because this particular family still have got a lot of land in the area. And do you think it will change in the next generation? Is it because our parents found it deeply uncomfortable to talk about colonial history or were as ignorant of it as we were. Whether the next generation, I think they're just bolder, Jane. I think they're braver at recognising the truth in things. And I think there's definitely a conscience there

that perhaps we didn't have, that we chose not to have, that we were ignorant not to have. I think we were just astoundingly ignorant yes I mean I really loved my grandparents but I've got to say that some of the things they would say quite routinely in conversation which would not be would not be acceptable yeah first of all extremely good reasons and I just think I mean my grandmother didn't have a drop of English blood I mean she was almost entirely Irish but she

was living in Britain but some of the things she would say and I'm not going to repeat them but they were casual racism was simply something that happened every day in conversation attitudes just the way people were we have changed and he was absolutely right

things have changed even in the last five years but we still know don't we um because we were talking about in the office the other day that a mixed race couple walking down the street can still get a reaction from some bloody moron who sees fit to shout i mean it's unbelievable but it still happens i really like satnamnam's use of the word woke, calling me in particular out on that comment about the Commonwealth, because actually woke is used as such a term of abuse now, and what it actually means is exactly what he was saying. You wake up to a reality.

That's where it comes from. And I think we're wrong to bandy it around quite so much in a pejorative sense, because when you boil it down to its essence, it's a good thing. Of course. Political correctness is a good thing. Oh, man. Mainstream media. That's the problem. If you don't read anything, I'm going to go and see if my alien vehicle is still parked where I left it. You're going to be found on some quite extraordinary websites and platforms tonight, lady.

I won't get a wink. I look forward to you reporting back. And maybe, actually, maybe it's Mary Berry who should go and greet the aliens. That's if you're not taken first. How do you know I haven't been? This may not be me. Have you thought that one through? Well, you have been sometimes a bit kinder to me

lately, so that's a possibility jane yeah you see who is this who even is this Thank you. on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies think I'm a lady listener. I know, sorry. Voice Over describes what's happening on your iPhone screen I'm