Off Air... with Jane and Fi - It was a dizzy old crowd...

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Jane and Fi are reliving their worst interview moments, discussing unremarkable genitalia and reviewing the London theatre scene. They're joined by Calvin Wayman, presenter of the podcast Cultured. He tells Jane and Fi about growing up in a cult with 5 parents and 44 siblings. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So when I was a very, very couple. We're just talking about people who were knobs in real life. Well, let's actually, why don't we start with a positive accolade for somebody. So I did a pre-recorded interview with John Turode, the MasterChef star and chef earlier on today, which will go out on the podcast in a couple of weeks' time. And we had some technical difficulties, and he was so nice and patient. He was in a different studio somewhere in central London.

But he was, you know, he had come out of another job that he was doing to do the interview. And actually, it's just a sign of a really, really nice person when they don't lose their rag or simply say, I'm sorry, I haven't got time for this. I'm in the middle of something else. Let's do it later. He could not have been more helpful and nice about it. So we just say hurrah.

Because some people are absolute gits. And Michael Winner was horrible. I was only trying to do a phone interview with him, Jane. It was when I was a baby cub reporter. We just couldn't get the line to go through the desk and I think I literally said could I phone you back

because we're having problems in the studio and just this tirade came down the phone at me and then he just put the phone down and because I was really trying to you know I was trying to get on and you know prove myself so I did phone him back and he didn't even bother saying anything, just put the phone down on me as soon as he picked up.

And I just thought, it's only a phone call, mate. About a five-minute phone call. And how busy was he? Well, I mean, he probably, what did he do by then? He was, I think loosely speaking, a film producer. I can't name a Michael Winner film. Nobody can. But he was reviewing restaurants, wasn't he?

Oh, for this organisation? Yep. So he probably had an urgent lunch appointment at Julie's Wine Bar. But anyway, he was just horrible. And I just, you know, it shakes you. It doesn't matter how many times it happens, actually. It still shakes you when somebody tirades you. And it would have been to promote something of his. You know, we wouldn't have been phoning him up to ask him about you know

a relevant political something or other i just think if you can't be nice how do you finish that sorry if you can't be nice be cheerful no is that it what What is that phrase? Well, I don't know, isn't it? Isn't it more if you can't say something nice? Oh, that's it. Say nothing at all. There we are. Sorry, I've lost my train of thought there. But have you ever had one of those where someone's just really... Oh, I've had quite a number of difficult, you might call them, celebrity encounters.

I do remember as a very junior reporter having permission to ring the home of Dame Barbara Cartland. Oh, my word. Because she lived in some splendour in rural Worcestershire. So she was, as far as we were concerned, that made her a local. Yeah. Because I worked for BBC Hereford and Worcestershire,

so she was Worcestershire author Barbara Cartland. Which is very funny, which is, well, you know, it's like the newspapers in Gloucestershire author Barbara Cartland. Which is very funny, which is, well, you know, it's like the newspapers in Gloucestershire. I think the headline was Local Man Becomes King. And Northamptonshire Prime Minister John Major. Cambridgeshire, I think. Well, I was at Radio Northampton, so we came to Northampton. Why?

It's only a county boundary, love. Oh, I see. So you just turned this, look over the boundary. You decided to claim it. It's one of ours. Right, OK. I mean, a lot of regional media are a little bit, they can be very territorial.

Well, they've got to be territorial because that's what they're all about. Yeah. And I don't think, did I do, I think I did do a telephone interview with Barbara Cartland which is arranged through her secretary and I actually this story doesn't have a very interesting ending because she wasn't unpleasant particularly I mean she was she was famous for lying on a chaise longue and simply dictating her novels yeah and I mean they were they were

better telling they were best-selling novels they were best selling. There's a difference between them. They were best selling novels, Jane. They were best selling, terrible novels. But listen, I'm the sort of person who goes to the press night of Metamorphosis, which is where I was last night. I did say I was going to the theatre. And whenever I go to the theatre, as a reward to myself for getting to the theatre, I have a glass of bubbly upon arrival. And last night was there's no exception,

but there's something really weird about watching Metamorphosis while drinking Prosecco. It just doesn't, it's not the right play. What would be the perfect Kafka accompaniment? Yeah, the last time I went to that theatre, it was for Cinderella, and I've got to say, Cinderella was better than Metamorphosis. Which isn't to say that, because Metamorphosis, of course, isn't bad at all. And it's a production directed by Lem Cisse, this one.

And it's by a phenomenal theatre group called Frantic Assembly. And they do a lot of I think, is it called physical theatre? It's all very carefully choreographed. Just astonishing. But does anybody have a good time at a performance of Metamorphosis? It's just not possible. Well, I mean, some people are probably bold home wiser well it was a dizzy old crowd there was a former bbc executive in the audience uh she looked at me and said i know who you are and i said i don't

think you do but we have met did you think you were me almost certainly and i did notice as well although i didn't get to speak to her though she's very good company yasmin alibi brown was oh i love her uh and i'm sure there were loads of other west east west london celebrities in attendance at this but um congratulations to everyone involved seriously because it is so slick and it's deeply disturbing and you know when it was written i had no idea i thought it was vaguely the 40s. 1915. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that is to me, I was astonished by that. So that would be written during the First World War. I mean, I hope I've got this right. I was I was really surprised that it was written so, so early on. And it's just it's just it... Did it have an interval? Very frightening.

Yes, it does have an interval. Yeah. So if you want to see a man turn into a cockroach and his family be really horrible to him, that's the play for you, everybody. Metamorphosis. Lovely job, Lee. Do you know what? I am quite drawn to Tracey Ann Oberman's

Merchant of Venice 1936. Well, we did have an email saying how good it was. Yeah. I think I might break my theatre fast in order to go and see that and I know that you'll sympathise because you feel the same way about books but when she said it's

an hour and a half long, no interval I thought, yep, that appeals too. Well look, I'm glad that you had an okay time No, no, I mean, nothing wrong with the performances or the staging was absolutely fantastic Well, look, I'm glad that you had an okay time. No, no, I mean, nothing wrong with the performances or the staging was absolutely fantastic. But did a little bit of you kind of go,

oh, it's Tuesday night, it's dark, it's cold, it's a bit late. You go to that sort of thing, so the next day you can say, I went to the theatre. And you just feel better about yourself, don't you? You're a citizen, a proper, upstanding, slightly cultured one. And people are always so, so keen to hear. Oh, I tell them anyway, Fee. All about it.

I'm going to read an email now, which is headlined, Unremarkable Genitalia. We're back in the room, kids. I'm a long-time listener and fan from the old place, but first time to write in ever to any show. This one comes from Alex. However, I felt compelled to write in because I've been listening to all of the great emails

about unsolicited, unwelcome compliments and was reminded that many years ago my husband had kidney stones in brackets, apparently worse than any childbirth could be, emoji, close brackets. Was referred to see a consultant to check everything else was okay the consultant followed up with a letter to inform him that his genitalia was unremarkable obviously a good thing that all was okay but he's never really got over the faint praise all made worse by realizing the consultant lived one street away and we've bumped into him

over the years on numerous occasions much to my amusement and my husband's chagrin. Thank you for keeping me company over the years, Alex. Absolutely our pleasure. That is damned with fake praise, isn't it? It is. Unremarkable genitalia. Yeah. In many ways, it's something we could all wish for, really.

Except I think with men, it's probably... I mean, that's the point of the email, isn't it? Yeah. To be thought of as a little bit run-of-the-mill, bang average set of meat and two veg you've got there, mate. Good luck with it, then. I did once, have you ever read one of those referral letters written by a doctor?

Oh, yes. This perfectly pleasant broadcaster has been to see me today. Well, that's nice, because I was referred to as this pleasant woman in her 40s. Okay. I got pleasant broadcaster on the last consultant's letter. I could only dream of such a thing. It is funny that, isn't it? So can a doctor, that's such a good question.

Can a consultant or a doctor please explain why why why do they do that i don't know because it's do you know what across my mind is it a euphemism yeah well is it a euphemism is it code for middle class like all of us is it that yes i mean does does pleasant mean uh kind of actually not not particularly ill don't worry about it. It could do. Does it mean... Might have gone to university. You know, probably charge a double, should still come back. Or that. What else could it mean?

Just needs to be heard for a bit because she's a neurotic old bag. Yep, that. Could be that. So do tell us. Yeah. That's a good point. Yes, you'll be out there. Why do you say pleasant?

Yeah. And if someone's really unpleasant, what do you say then? Yeah, no, it's a good point. Yes, you'll be out there. Why do you say pleasant? And if someone's really unpleasant, what do you say then? Yeah, no, it's a good point. And is there a different term that's used for men? Because if we had this conversation amongst a group of women, I bet nine out of ten of us would have been described as pleasing, pleasant, amenable, friendly, something like that. Yeah, it might just mean apparently washes, wouldn't it? something like that yeah it might just mean apparently washes yeah maybe the maybe the men are described as strong sturdy impressive voracious vital uh the sound app is called sound

print jack's crawford uh so that's the one that you can download onto your phone and when you're in a very loud place you literally just open the app and it records the decibels and it sends it back to a central database. So we are collecting information about places that are too loud or places that are perfectly pleasing. It's Etty actually who has seen The Merchant of Venice 1936 and she does say, Fee, that it was powerful, moving and relevant. I tried to see it again but it was sold out but Etty lives in Stratford-upon-Avon so she saw it there. Okay. It was slightly easier to see it again, but it was sold out. But Etty lives in Stratford-upon-Avon, so she saw it there. OK. It was slightly easier to see it.

Yeah, I think it's come to London now. Fee, it will be worth it, honest, she says. Stratford-upon-Avon must be an interesting place to live, Etty. Tell us more about that, because, you know, you must just get so fed up with... What was the name of the playwright? Shakespeare. Paul Abbott. I don't know. know we're watching no offense again at the moment

yeah remind me uh joanna scanlon comedy kind of police drama that he wrote it's just superb it's it's not not aged badly it is really i just forgot i love joanna scanlon funny funny funny funny his writing is yeah Yeah. What's it about? So Joanna Scanlon is a cop. She's a commander of a unit. And they do this clever thing where there's one underlying storyline that goes throughout the whole series. Is it a comedy or not?

Well, it's a comedy drama, but that makes it sound a little bit kind of buttock-clenchingly. It's just a very, very amusingly written drama, I think is what I'd prefer to describe it as. But there's a different little story in every episode and then one long storyline. Arc. Arc, thank you, darling.

Arc is what I was searching for. But it's just cannily written. I think it's still a winner. And I didn't realise, actually, I think there are it's uh it's still a winner and i didn't realize actually there are i think there are another two seasons that's a lovely feeling isn't it gosh and is that available on that would be available we're watching that on the prime oh yeah have you not you've got the prime have you got the prime not on my telly my telly is very traditional it only takes the normal channels okay know, I've been having all that trouble with my satellite

and I know I'm the only person still with a satellite. Nobody understands why. Least of all me. Why are you moving towards me, Kate? Oh, no, we haven't got... The microphone's the wrong way. It's all right. You can still hear you.

Are people getting the best of me? I'm sorry. This might be one of those where I've sounded bigger and that never goes down well. Birth memories comes from Kate in Brisbane. Now this is interesting because Kate in Brisbane has some kind of firm information about this. I've just listened on my way to work an email about birth trauma. I'm a psychologist who has a particular interest in trauma and in particular childhood trauma. What your listener has described experiencing distress around tight things around her neck with a story of the cord around her neck at birth is

truly a memory. We would call this an implicit or felt memory. It's in her memory network and stored in her body and the emotional area of her brain. And then the story, her system, reminds her that something bad is associated with that feeling because it never got processed into memory because her brain was too immature. It's like a constant little nudge. Yeah. My work is about often processing these early trauma memories

and reconsolidating them with a new sense of the story that it wasn't good, but it's over now. You survived it, and the heat of the memory is gone, and your own natural adaptive information networks facilitate this. I love this work and find it so fascinating. I mean, it does sound absolutely brilliant. Apart from anything else, it's a beautifully written email with loads of enormous words, all in the right place, Joan.

Well, I think that just hints at the incredibly high standard of our listeners. All right. Yes, I really do. And here is another one about libraries. As a new resident to my area, I, like many of your listeners, am consciously trying to make new social contacts. Imagine my dismay when on starting to use my new library membership, I learned that all the local branches have self-service book checkouts and returns. Working and studying from home my walk to the library to exchange my books is sometimes a slice, this is another great email, a slice of social fresh air in an otherwise online day and being denied that short bit of chit chat at the desk has disappointed me more than I thought

it would. I used to volunteer in my old library for years and I would always say the library is about so much more than the books, it is a social hub. The brief chat at the desk was so important. I also wholeheartedly agree about the clunk of the old ink stamps, what a loss, not just for the audio pleasure but also for everything that you used to be able to learn about the book's journey before it came into your hands how many people read it before you and how often it had been borrowed and so on um thank you very much for that and actually there's another email on the same subject from patricia in tullamore in the republic of ireland i'm on a train in ireland just now and I've opened up the new library book that I collected yesterday.

It brought another library memory to mind. As a child and even later, I'd be curious to look at the stamping records on the little white sheet of paper inside the book cover. And the excitement of finding that I was the book's first reader in a crisp-paged new library book was just terrific. Yes, I really get that. Well, you're at the start of the chain. You're being the first in the queue, yeah, the first in the chain of a book that probably

went on to delight and entertain many hundreds of people after you. I wonder how many people would read the average library book before it's put out of circulation? Good question. A librarian would know. It's the second good question I've had in this podcast. Yes darling, well done. I'm on fire. Yes darling. What was I going to say then? There was something interesting. Oh yes, books with inscriptions in them. You know if you buy a book from a secondhand shop and you get it home or maybe you flick it open in the bookshop and it's got a very personal inscription in the

front do you like the book more or do you like the book less another good question and this one from the other lady um it's interesting i i find it i think it's really sad isn't it that somebody has given away a prized something that was at one point a prized possession i'm absolutely with you and that makes me feel a bit sad and so i think i'd like it less yeah it makes me feel a bit a bit funny about the book a bit like it's not it's not mine it's not for me no yep isn't that weird because there's nothing lovelier than giving a book to somebody you know with meaning really and so so you write in it. But you're right, I always feel like I can't really buy that book, actually,

because it's still John's or Patricia's or somebody's. But it's a weird thing anyway, isn't it? I've got a book, a hardback book of an edition of The Railway Children given to my eldest daughter, I think, by the great aunt she was named after. And I find the inscription in that so sad I can barely look at it because it's written by a lady who was already well into her 90s. And, you know, frankly, I don't think my daughter even knows the book exists, but I do, and I will never, ever throw it away. But I wonder whether somebody will throw it away.

They will throw it away because it won't mean anything to them. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? All this stuff about possessions is actually very, very difficult and very sensitive because something precious to you will one day be chucked into a skip by someone. Yeah, and you see, I know you love your audiobooks, but you can't do that with an audiobook. You can't stamp it as your own, send it to somebody. I mean, you can send it, but you can't do that with an audio book. You can't, you know, stamp it as your own.

Send it to somebody. I mean, you can send it to somebody, can't you? But not with the same kind of meaning. Oh, we're reminiscing. Good Lord. I'm going to try and move it on now. This is just... Shall we just start talking about antiques?

Recommendation. Well, I did say today, I've been completely overlooked as the new host of Antiques Roadshow. That's a different story. I can't be bothered to give John Sobel another mention. Shall we just move that on? Well, no, that was... We need to... Actually, this is John Sobel in conversation

with our showbiz pal, Ian Dale, and telling Ian Dale that he'd been offered the job of BBC political editor, but had turned it down. And this, not surprisingly, led your favourite professional carpers to reminisce about all the jobs they could have done had they only accepted them when offered. I was up for match of the day. And you said something else.

And I just couldn't do it. And antiques roach. And antiques roach, yes, that's right. Anyway, look, here I am. Now, this is a very good recommendation from Laura. I thought you might like to know there's an active conversation on Mumsnet about the brightness of headlights and a petition. Could it be publicised on the podcast?

Well, it is being publicised now. Apparently, the AA and the RAC have both tried raising this as an issue, but they haven't had very much success. So do head off and sign the petition if you want to, because I think a petition, once it goes past, is at 100,000 signatures. It has to be discussed in Parliament. So that is a good idea.

Thank you very much for that, because I didn't know, and that sounds like maybe our involvement might lead to more people signing up. Yes, and it would just be a really good thing to be part of changing. Part of changing. To be part of effecting a change. Effecting a change. In our own small way, as two tiny women with gobs,

we are effecting change with this podcast every single day. Now, Fia and I often reference our siblings. We're both very fortunate indeed to have one sister each. And frankly, I think we both agree that's been plenty. So spare a thought for us. Speak for yourself. Spare a thought for our guest. It's a very cack-handed way of getting into this

because this is a relatively serious interview. I know you said, is it relatively or is it very serious? Anyway, our guest is Calvin Wayman, and he grew up in a fundamentalist Mormon community in Utah in the United States. And just looking at it purely statistically, which obviously isn't the way you look at anybody's background normally, he has five parents. His biological mother was the first of his biological father's four wives. And it was

only when his dad granted quite rare permission for him to go out of the community and do a business course at college that he actually really questioned his upbringing at all. He left the cult eventually, although it took him a while, and now lives in New York. And he's about to launch a new podcast about cults and about the thinking around cults. It's called Cultured. It isn't available yet, but it soon will be. So keep an eye out for that if this is something that interests you. Calvin began by telling me about just how different his life is now compared to his childhood. It's two different lives. Previous life on a farm, like around 44 siblings, you know, five parents in a fenced yard, never leaving, you know, like never going out in public, didn't even go to public school.

I mean, now, I mean, I'm on my, not my own because I have friends and stuff like that. But now I'm in, I'm not in a small rural town that was a farm life where I got up every morning, milked the cow and did garden work. Now I'm in New York City. You know, it's just so different in every capacity. Viewpoints on the world, like then I was super conservative, certainly a lot more. I'm politically homeless, but I'd definitely still say like more left leaning. Tell us a little bit about the part of America in which you grew up. Where was it?

A small town in Utah. So the Western States. But yeah, only about fundamentalist Mormonism is relatively small. Some people around the world would have heard of Mormonism, but then there's, and some people even consider that culty, but then there's regular Mormonism, but then there's and some people even consider that culty. But then there's there's regular Mormonism, but then there's fundamentalist Mormonism. And it's this, you know, secretive underground movement that's been living for, you know, four generations, like secretly living polygamy. And so, yeah, it's just in a small town.

Most people wouldn't have ever heard. But the point is that growing up in it as a child, you don't know that it's secretive or underground. It was totally normal. Yeah, it was totally normal. People ask me all the time, what was that like? And I mean, that's a quite insightful thing you just said, because that's what the first track, what was that like? It was normal. Like, that's the most honest answer. When I, when I was a child, like there was, there was nothing odd about it. My grandfather was also a polygamist. He had like 70 kids. My uncles also had like 20 kids, 30 kids. Like my best friends were my cousins because we were all in the same church. Yeah. I didn't know any better. And the schooling you had was provided by the cult.

Not even the cult. The schooling I was provided was my parents. So in fact, schooling, I don't know why I had the certain DNA that I had out of all of my siblings, so I was homeschooled. But what that really ended up doing is I had to basically become self-educated. So it just led to my own intellectual curiosities as a teenager.

And then that's what led me going to university. And going to university, I'm the first and only one in my family that has done that because it was very much frowned upon to go to university because that's going out into the outside world. It's getting exposed to ideas that could damn your soul to hell. So I actually had to convince my dad and grandfather to let me go, which my grandfather was one of the cult leaders. And that's what kind of kicked everything off. leaders. And that's what kind of kicked everything off. I mean, we wouldn't be here today. It was a single philosophy class in college that created the crack in the whole thing. Quite terrifying. And did your fellow students treat you as an object of curiosity? No, because we were trained to keep it very secret and quiet. I did not talk about it at all.

because we were trained to keep it very secret and quiet. I did not talk about it at all. Like my whole life was secretive. We were raised because living polygamy, it was illegal. And like having multiple wives was illegal. So we were raised to never talk about it to anybody on the outside world. So if a vehicle, if a car came down our dead end street, we were trained to hide behind a bush or run in the house so that they didn't see so many kids and even suspect that it was probably a polygamous house. So I didn't tell anybody.

And your mother, your biological mother, what was her, can you tell us about her status within the family group sure she was uh she was the first mom uh she had 12 kids she's the first wife that's what i mean yeah she was the first yeah okay um but in my i mean in my family there wasn't really i mean it was the dad he was definitely the the the, the, the hierarchical, the hierarchy, he was the one in charge. And then the moms were like below him and they were all pretty equal as far as status goes. And, um, yeah. And again, it was all in one house. So I have my biological mom and certainly there's a closer connection with your biological mom, especially when you're young. But the way we were raised is they were all my moms. All four of them were my

moms, not just her. I don't, I mean, I just don't understand that dynamic. It's just completely baffling. Totally. Yeah. Makes sense. So meal times, I mean, take us, take us into your meal times. Well, have you ever watched Harry Potter? I mean, take us into your meal times. Well, have you ever watched Harry Potter? I mean, it's just like living at Hogwarts. That's kind of what it feels like to me. Like when I like going in like with big long tables, you know, a big long table. We would usually do buffet style. So, we'd get up after prayer and then get up in the queue, form a line, get your food. Yeah. And was there lots of argument?

Oh, yeah, for sure. Especially among siblings. So, yeah, lots of argument among siblings. In fact, that brings up another point if you're curious about the dynamic of the family, because with that many kids, it almost felt like its own, this is me just retroactively looking at it now, it's like its own village where the parents were like the government and the kids were like the citizens.

And so there was like this kind of distrust in a way where the parents could get us in trouble. And so it was the siblings, yes, we would fight and argue with each other but also we would kind of cover for each other like if one of us were gonna sneak out of the the house for any reason like to go down the street to a mcdonald's you know and and get like that was you could get in a big trouble for something like that like just leaving the property So we would like find ways to cover for each other, but yeah, just like in school, if you're, if you're living in school all the time, you're going to have the Malfoys that you just butt heads with. And that's kind of, so I had siblings that,

you know, that I butt heads with and then others. Well, I mean, there were 43 of them. you know, that I butt heads with. And then others. Well, I mean, there were 43 of them. 44. Yeah. There's 45 of us. Okay. Right. Forgive me. Sorry. I just forgot one there, which is probably not that difficult to do. Yeah, exactly. And do you, who did this system suit? I mean, one assumes that it was great for your dad, pretty horrific for the women. for your dad, pretty horrific for the women. I mean, I think that's a valid assessment. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it all started with this guy, Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is the founder of Mormonism and there's a lot of controversy around how he started polygamy, but in my upbringing and what is still purported by the communities in which I come from is that polygamy is a divine practice. It is the way to live. In fact, in Mormonism, there's three levels of heaven, and this style of living is the only way you can get to the highest

heaven, which of course sounds incredibly convenient. But yeah, like we were taught that, I mean, we came to earth to get, to choose good over evil so that we could get back to heaven. And the Bible says to multiply and replenish the earth. So this style of living is how you can multiply and replenish the earth, like have as many babies as possible, get souls here that are just up in heaven waiting to come here waiting to progress but that's certainly a very like doesn't take a lot to to recognize that point that yeah it does not there's not a whole lot of equity there. Let's say that. Yeah, it is very difficult, though, isn't it? Because the line between cult and religion is actually pretty blurred. like i it's the way i viewed it having to deconstruct this entire belief system and rebuild is it's like on a sliding scale and so i like i like the word culty like there's a lot

of things that are culty like when i left the cult i i left it at first thinking okay that's behind me now and there's nothing else that's culty in the outside world. That's just not the case. You know, there are, there are other things that are culty. It could be something as yes, other churches, other religions. It could be a yoga studio. You know, like it depends. Like I say that kind of jokingly. But yeah, there is a there is a blur. It's not always obvious what is a cult, what's not a cult. Your father, was he a tyrant? Yes. Yeah, unfortunately. I think that's a fair... Yeah, he didn't really... He had a dad in my grandfather who was one of the church leaders that, you know, who was a World War II guy, very rule-based. And he was also, my grandfather was very beloved.

And I think my dad was never given the skills on how to manage any sort of, if anybody stood up to him or didn't give him the same respect that he was used to seeing people give to his dad. him or didn't give him the same respect that he was used to seeing people give to his dad. And so, yeah, I, in some ways, I would describe it almost as my family was like a cult within the cult, in a way, where, yeah, he was. And it's kind of sad, because as life went on, as soon as the kids, you know, could leave the house, because they got old or married or moved on, and then just seeing, like, it felt like that he had all this control, and then just seeing how many of them just fled and the relationships kind of just completely shattered. I mean, it's kind of sad for him, in a way, especially as he's getting to the end of his life now have you got a relationship with him I do now yeah um we had a big falling out when I left a major one over simple things like uh I went

after I had left for I was out for a couple of years and I went back for a family barbecue and this might seem silly but I went dressed like this and in my upbringing you couldn't ever wear short sleeves and so you just had a t-shirt on yeah exactly jeans yeah okay and and and uh we we essentially got into like a, a fight in a way. Like he was really upset that I, you know, was wearing short sleeves. And that wasn't, uh, it was actually the first time any, any male especially had just kind of not, we were taught if he ever was angry or mad at you to just take it like a man. Like whether you're four years old and getting a licking or you're a 16 year old and getting

a lick, like getting, you know, reprimanded as well. And so that broke the relationship for a while. But then a couple of years ago in 2022, we found out he had, you know, he has stage four prostate cancer. you know, he has stage four, uh, stage four prostate cancer. And so at that, at that point, it was just like, you know, when the, when the clock is ticking like that, so much of the past just kind of melts away. And so last year, last summer, we, we had a rekindling of our relationship, spent a lot of time together in the summer. And in fact, I'm flying out to Utah next Tuesday just to see him because I don't know how much longer he's going to be here.

So that's kind of where things are now. We are talking to Calvin Wayman, who grew up in Utah as part of a fundamentalist Mormon cult. Wayman, who grew up in Utah as part of a fundamentalist Mormon cult. He had five parents and over 40 siblings. I asked him how many of the siblings are still living as part of the cult. Actually, a good chunk have technically left. I'd say about half of them are still in it. And again, this is in stages. It's in because there's, there's leaving it as in saying, I don't really want to go along with the tenants of the church. But then there, but you're still the, but most of them, in fact, 99% of them are still in the bubble, as I would call it, like in the same geographical area with the same social ties. And to me, there's a lot of it still there, even if you're not fully believing it. There's only two of us that are like out, out,

like living somewhat completely different. I have a sister that's in Hawaii with her husband, and I'm in New York City. Everyone else, you know, is in the same place that my family has been for, you know, four generations. So yeah, from that perspective, I mean, I'm fascinated at this stage of, you know, human psychology and what makes us do what we do. There's a lot of things that can actually be extrapolated out of what's learned in co-like environments to the rest of humanity. But it's just fascinating to me. It's really difficult to change your social ties. That was the most difficult part, frankly. People have asked me all the time.

In fact, I've collected several ex-cult friends that kind of get it. I was just talking with a guy, Moses Storm, that also grew up in a cult. He has a comedy special just last weekend. And the one thing we both agreed on is growing up in the cult wasn't the hard part. Back to your point earlier, because we didn't know any different. The hardest part is the waking up to it, but then the leaving it. The leaving it is the most traumatic thing you can imagine because like we're such social animals and feeling those, like when I made that

decision to leave, it wasn't just, 99% of the people I grew up with became estranged overnight, grew up with became estranged overnight, including family members. And so I can't remember exactly what made me start telling that, but that was the most difficult piece. So I appreciate that you're flying back to see your dad because he's seriously unwell. If you, and I hope that doesn't happen, but if you became seriously unwell, would a member of your family come to see you, take care of you, reach out to you? I'm close to about four of my siblings. Yeah. So I would like to think they certainly would. The majority of my siblings, I'm not that close to.'s it's surface level. And it's not and it's kind of a it's kind of a difficult thing because it's not like you you don't have love for people. But when

you're it's literally I don't know if you're familiar with the old Plato cave story, like the philosopher Plato's allegory of the cave. But when it's kind of like talking to it's like you were born in a cave and that's all you knew. And so you can relate to other people that are also in the cave. But after you're out of the cave for a while, inside of the cave, not only is it not very appealing, it's very difficult to have those common relation, like things that you can relate on and even when

you try to speak to things that are part of your natural everyday life if you're speaking with somebody that hasn't been out of it and hasn't gone through that journey it's just really difficult to have connections that are deep and meaningful yeah but i guess in a way even those of us who certainly didn't have experiences as extreme as your own almost all of us have left home totally and it's it's cut it is not entirely dissimilar is it it's not in fact that's been one of my favorite parts of the of the leaving and also as i've opened up about it and started talking to other people is i think there are these uh these common threads of humanity in it as well that are just, again, maybe people can't relate to having 44 siblings, but there are people that certainly can relate to feeling alone, even among people that they're around. They may not have been

in a cult that is like a toxic thing above you, but they can relate to, like I've had people hearing my story like it feels like a toxic relationship that they were in like there's good things and there's bad things it's not just all bad and when you're in it it's difficult to see it and there's a lot of work leaving out of it so there's a lot of those things there's a lot of those things that others that i think uh connect to just because. With your experience and from your perspective, how do you view the kind of crazy, from my perspective, conspiracy theories that a lot of your fellow citizens

seem prepared to buy into? I'm fascinated by it. I'm not, this is one of the things that I talk about with my friends that are inclined to philosophy and politics and otherwise. I understand it in a way. Like, I literally have family that were at Jan 6th. Like, when it was breaking news on CNN that people were storming the u.s capital some of like i had family members that were changing their facebook profile picture of them climbing the walls and so i don't know i have an interesting uh front row seat to things because i because i

i'm in circles that you know are more liberal and left-leaning but yeah I also know people that believe the earth is flat and that and that Donald Trump was the second coming of Jesus and and and on the surface, it's like, how could anybody believe X, Y, and Z? But if you can sit with it for 20 minutes to an hour, you can actually start to peel the layers back and understand it a little bit as to why it comes up. And I don't know how much time we have around that. But again, from my vantage point, it's, it's genuinely fascinating to me to see what people fall into, but to see how people came to their conclusions on that side and other sides,

you know, cause you know, New York city, it definitely has a lot of diversity, but it also, it, it doesn't, it's not it. every single person in New York City isn't necessarily fully educated on every issue either, you know. January the 6th insurrection, which suggests that people who are part of cults of one sort or another tend to head for that sort of event or that sort of set of beliefs when dangled in front of them. You've chosen every single word in that sentence very carefully. Well, I've tried, yes. I've also been very careful to say cult. Extreme care. Because it is one of those things that can trip up people.

But, you know, I did mean what I said. I mean, everyone to a degree, because we only have one childhood, it's the only one we're ever going to know, and no one ever chooses their parents. It's just, so you don't on the whole do you don't actually question a lot about your upbringing do you until you are exposed to other upbringings yeah and a little bit of you finds an affinity yeah with the family down the road and then you take it back into your house and you say well andrew's parents don't do that what's that happened when i first had had orange beans at my friend Marion's house and we didn't have orange beans so I

went home and said to my mum we've never had orange beans I would like them. We only had green beans up to that point. So orange beans being baked beans? Baked beans. And green beans being runner beans? Runner beans, yeah. Okay, there's a huge leap there. It's like an Irish trickler of beans in my life because now we have cannellini and white beans very regularly. Yeah, please don't start on the beans again. The one thing, of course, you can't do. No, don't start on the beans. Don't start on the beans.

But I will say about beans. No, I've got the bold beans cookbook and it's a hard recommend because this week I made a very, very nice chickpea stew. No, honestly, chickpea stew with dill, coriander and parsley and really not much else. Economical and delicious. Lovely. Can we end with a really lovely one from Roz, who is one of our very international listeners, Jane.

It's called Tugging at My Heart Twice in One Episode. Hello, Jane and Fi, you really got me today when you read out the listener's email about her father cleaning the family shoes I could actually see my father, smell the polish and feel the stiffness of the cloths he always insisted that the heel part joining the sole had to be polished

too, that's dedication and then the interview with Tim Marshall asking him if he still looked up at the sky with pleasure or words to that still looked up at the sky with pleasure or words to that effect. Phew, the sky is where I look when I want to be with the man who loved me so much until the day he died. No, not the man I married. I know. I'm sorry that I'm yet another listener from Australia and not one of the very rare ones from Tunbridge Wells. Yes, we're not big enough in Tunbridge Wells, Jay. We need to do more.

Although I did go there last year on a visit to the UK, meeting an old friend who travelled down from York. Neither of us had been there, which was why we chose it. But time travel was not what we expected. Going back in time, that is. A shout out to Debbie Gracie, who introduced me to your podcast. We love Debbie. A friend I met here in Melbourne, although she lives in Edinburgh, keep up.

She comes over every year to see family and we bonded through cycling and she even joined me on a cycling trip to New Zealand. Well, Ros, it's lovely to have you and Debbie on board. And I think that looking up at the sky thing is just actually quite profound. It is where we look when we want to think about people that we love I think

more than looking into a forest more than looking into a river you know we look to the sky don't we and I found there was something so sad about everything that Tim Marshall told us about all the agro that's already up there yeah well we're just like we're just brilliant and exporting agro and we'll just keep on doing it. Yeah, I'm going to choose not to see it. And it was interesting because he said that it didn't dull his kind of... He still had that sense of wonder. Yeah, mysticism looking up at the sky.

But, you know, I don't want to think that there are, you know, a couple of chemical toilets circling Elon Musk's Tesla up there and all the other detritus that's in sky. Because it's where our imagination is, isn't it? I think Tim did say, didn't he? Although I think he didn't get the chance to actually complete the... Oh, no, I think he thought it was too distasteful. But he did say that the Apollo missions had left a lot of human poo on the moon.

I mean, he completely misjudged us because that's exactly the kind of stuff we do want to talk about. But he thought we should move on. We just want to talk about ropes, towers. We'd have done half an hour on poo on the moon, but he didn't want to go there. Right.

Now, we should say you're very, very lucky because on Friday there's an email special as well as the four-day-a air offering i mean honestly can we do more well we could we could but we're not going to saturday and sunday but that's not an option i'm very busy with my beans right um thank you very much for listening jane and feet at times.radio have a lovely evening when you get to it Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler

and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank?

I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry. very soon. Don't be so silly. Money, good bank. I know ladies don't get behind us.