Off Air... with Jane and Fi - It's a two-patch kind of day

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

Fi is still under the weather so Jane's on her lonesome again this episode, but she's making the most of her "splendid isolation".Pre-ailment, Jane and Fi spoke to Nicola Fox, the woman who made it all the way from Hertfordshire to NASA.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kea BrowningTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Hello, welcome to Off Air.

It's Garvey on her own again. I mean, obviously, strictly speaking, I'm with a colleague here in a studio, but let's pretend I'm sitting here in splendid isolation Fi is still not too well but we think she's on the mend and very hopeful that she'll be back on Monday and next week she's going to be presenting the Live Times radio show with Ed Vasey

now they do know each other they've worked with each other before and I think it's going to be very interesting so I for one will be listening from home on my easter break and that'll be well worth hearing so thank you for all the emails about as ever a whole range of subjects it's jane and fee at times dot radio um people are still writing i think this is really interesting still writing to us about paul morgan bentley and his book about being um a parent and being well doing your best to be an equal parent he parents with his husband my story of parenting says Mary began in 2004 when my husband and I met

our daughter in a social center in Vietnam I've titled my email to you the same second parenthood for this reason i.e. we met her at the exact same moment i had no additional biological attachment as a result we adopted another little boy in 2008 again my husband and i meeting him at the same moment we've had a 50 50 split of care for them since i've always worked outside our home and inside during covid days my husband is a great hands-on dad and has taken equal responsibility and I put it down to how we came to have our family. I've been listening to you from Cork in Ireland for over five years and you've enjoyed me on many a walk, cooking dinner, driving to Dublin etc. A great recommendation on the Susie Steiner books, that was from Fee actually,

I gobbled up the first two really quickly and then had to wait a week for the library to get in number three uh well there's a satisfied customer in cork in ireland that's mary thank you for that mary and the book i've been banging on about i finally finished it this morning uh at the table by claire powell need to make sure i've called her other names in the past but it's definitely pow Powell um really do recommend that it's it's a short book it's in paperback you'll love it get it get it in make it part of your life if you possibly can um Tina says her emails headlined third time lucky I've been emailing the wrong bloody address I finally got it right says Tina get Kathy Burke on to talk about her new podcast if you haven't listened, make sure you do. There's other stuff but I've forgotten. I need two HRT patches some days to remember.

Many thanks, Tina. Right. Okay, Tina. I feel your pain. I've never had a two patch day. Actually, that's not true. I think probably I just forgot to take one off. And then yes, I probably have had loads of two patch days. But even if you haven't had one you've probably felt like you were needing needing one um Rachel says I'm interested by Fee's recollection of singing a whiter shade of pale at school and I'm thinking odd that the lyrics made no sense I wonder if this is partly because at school we spent so much time singing hymns and the words didn't make any sense there either i loved and can still remember the words of many of them and understand them much better now but no one ever talked to us about what we were singing as children which probably helped pop songwriters to get away with stringing meaningless words together without any requirement to make

sense for us later on um that's an interesting point there, Rachel. Thank you very much. Let's talk about the coronation, because some people are. This is from Jennifer, who I suspect would not really consider herself a monarchist. Thank God you've changed that music, says Jennifer. It was startling. My world would be so much better if I didn't have to suddenly leap to my device, sometimes from the other end of the room,

to fast forward through those irritating shouty bits. Okay, Jennifer. Right, I'm writing today in response to your coronation special. Yes, this was the news yesterday that Fi and I only received ourselves yesterday before she had to go home ill. This was that we are going to get permission to do a coronation day program uh from a roof near a rooftop near the abbey itself and this is an opportunity in our case i think to talk in an informed but we hope slightly irreverent way about what will take place on that day, May the 6th. Not everybody's a monarchist, and you certainly don't have to be. Once again, says Jennifer, I'm struck by the claims

that British commentators make of these ceremonial occasions. They go on and on about the vast number of people watching from abroad. Some claims can be as high as 50% of the world's population. It's ludicrous, says Jennifer. Figures aside, and let's assume many millions do tune in, the commentators seem to interpret that viewing as proof of admiration for royal institutions and customs. Who are these millions of admiring, envious foreigners? They're unlikely to be European, Russian, Chinese, Indian, American or Asian. Are they from Canada,

wonders Jennifer, and suspect they're a figment of someone's bygone empire imagination? I for one always watch these pageants but always view them with absolute bewilderment at the British people's ability and willingness to celebrate such incredible displays of power and privilege for so little return. It's all quite incomprehensible to me in my sprawling Australian bungalow, says Jennifer. Yeah, I'm not suggesting for a minute that everyone who listens, even to us on Coronation Day, will be a fully paid up royal fan. But that's, can I dare I say, that's sort of part of the fun that you don't have to be. You can just be a part of it.

And we're very grateful to Times Radio for letting us be a small part of the coverage here on the station on the big day itself. And whether you support it or not, there's no denying that the day itself will be quite big. Just because many of us will not have ever seen a coronation before. And some of us will almost certainly never see another one. So let's just go with it in that spirit. We have been talking about how difficult it is to write a funny book and lots of you have been kind enough to let us know about works of fiction that you really did find funny. I think Apples Never Fall by Leanne Moriarty fits the bill, says this

listener, Elizabeth. Didn't you have her on your show in the other place? Yes, we did. She was great. I think it's a great story and keeps you guessing. But it was a book that also made me laugh out loud frequently. I listened to it on Audible and it was read very well. Yeah, interesting that Elizabeth because I have just listened. I've only just listened to Big Little Lies, and I listened to it rather than reading it. And I agree, it was brilliantly read. And there's something about Leanne Moriarty's writing that really lends itself well to being read out loud. So yeah, I agree. I love her stuff. And she's a really nice woman. This is from Donna. I've been tempted to write to you both many times and have constructed long, wry, amusing, yet deeply intelligent pieces in my head

about all sorts of stuff, menopause, imposter syndrome, and being an overweight, overwrought, middle-aged woman. However, I've decided just eventually to keep it simple and just stick to books. When it comes to funny, fantastic books, I would recommend Nina Stibbe, I think it's Stibbe, it could be Stibbe. I think it's Stibbe.

And Katherine Heine as The Women for Me. About three years ago, I found myself quite heartbroken in a way that I can only remember feeling as a teenager. It was horrible. And I knew that my diet of miserable, anguished literature just wasn't going to cut it. I needed froth. I needed fun. I needed to laugh and find my mojo somewhere under the sofa along with a fur ball the cat had chucked up. Nina's semi-autobiographical

novels about the joys and horrors of growing up in a village in Leicestershire in the 70s and 80s are truly marvellous and made me chuckle out loud on the bus and Catherine Heine's standard deviation was a cool tale about a sophisticated New York family dealing with the mess incongruity and frankly very unsophisticated flotsam and jetsam of life both author authors are deceptively easy to read and will put a spring in your step yet their books are also clever wise and and wonderful. Come to Dublin soon, says Donna. I haven't been to Dublin for ages, I definitely should. Thank you for the invitation. And Ruth says, I'm sure with humour it's all a matter of taste,

but I found Hunting Unicorns by Bella Pollan in a charity shop and I remember a few proper laugh-out-loud moments. There you go, there's another rock-solid recommendation for a funny book and I hope maybe you can dig out some of those um over the course of the easter weekend and so to our guest today now fee and i recorded the interview uh just before uh she became a bit unwell so um you don't hear that much of her in this interview because she was she was not at her best actually poor thing she was really she was battling on though i was impressed it was dr nicola fox was our guest and she is really significant actually she's british born and she now has what she calls

the best job on the planet she's only the second woman in history to be named head of science at nasa now that's obviously a colossal achievement uh but we should say and that's why we have her on the program and we're so excited about her she's's British. She's from Hitchin in Hertfordshire. She used to be the person in charge of the Parker Solar Probe Mission. This was the mission which aimed to gather the first ever samples of a star's atmosphere by flying to within four miles of the surface of the sun. Now, I do talk to her about infinity and beyond and everything else related to her career. But we do start by talking about her origins. And I asked her how often she got back to her home in Hertfordshire. I typically go once a year or so, but a little bit more right now. So yes, I'm actually going

to be there for Easter. Great. Okay. So it's still very much your home. That's where you're from? Great. Okay. So it's still very much your home. That's where you're from? Yes. Yes. And my parents still live there. Okay. Brilliant. Tell us then, your official title is NASA Chief Scientist, which I think is something that, if I'm honest, doesn't mean a great deal to most people in Britain. So what is your day job? So my official title is actually the Associate Administrator for Science Mission Directorate. So I'm kind of the head of science is sort of how we shorten it. My day job is really crazy.

It's taking care of over 100 NASA missions, about 50 of which were in the process of designing and building and over 70 are actually flying so there's a lot of missions to take care of there's a big research portfolio that you know that supports all the scientists that do all the great work with our missions and there's you know running a large science organization so there's budget and there's you know lots of documents to read and sign and lots of, we do a lot of international partnerships and partnerships with other agencies in the US and partnerships with commercial companies. So it's just a lot of, it's a very, very varied job. I have to say no, no day is ever the same.

Right. Okay. Now you're not the first woman to have held this position, are you? No, no, I'm not. Who was your predecessor? My predecessor was Mary Cleave, who was an astronaut. So following in big, big, big shoes to fill. And you're not an astronaut. Your career has taken a very different trajectory. Can you explain the difference between your NASA career and that of somebody who would have been or had been an astronaut? Yes, I wish I had been an astronaut. I'll just start by saying that. But no, I came up literally through the science ranks. You know, I did my PhD and then I did a postdoc at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, which is in Maryland in the US.

I was there for about three years. And then I went to the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, where I worked on a host of different NASA missions. The biggest one being Parker Solar Probe, which is the mission that flies really, really close to the sun. I was the project scientist for that. And then about three weeks after we launched Parker Solar Probe, I kind of relaunched my own career. I went down to NASA headquarters in Washington, D.C., where I was the division head for the heliophysics missions, so the heliophysics division. And then, as you know, just a few weeks ago, took this fabulous job as the associate administrator for science. And is it at all frustrating having had an ambition or, you know, a desire to be in space, to be the person who's working on the ground?

No, not at all. It's just wonderful. I mean, people that work for NASA, we have this amazing sort of shared purpose and shared goal, which is just to do amazing things and to push the boundaries of science and push the boundaries of technology. And so I was actually out this week at the announcement for the new astronauts that will go on Artemis 2. And I'm almost tearing up. It was such an amazing experience to be there and to be with these incredible people who are going to go do these amazing things, fly around the moon, test all of the systems that we'll be using to actually put people back on the moon just a few years after that. So, no, yes, I think so many people grow up thinking, dreaming they'd like to be an astronaut and they'd like to go to space. But there's only a very, very few, the best of the best of the best that get to do that.

And I can tell you, I'm not in any physical shape to be an astronaut, sadly. Well, no, don't do yourself down. Actually I suppose I should ask the question what physical requirements are necessary in an astronaut? Oh they are they are the fittest people you can imagine. There was a show in England a few years ago I think so you want to be an astronaut. And if you sort of think about all of the things that they had to go through, all of those tests, all of the challenges, all of the things they had to do, that's standard for an astronaut. It's mental, kind of being in the right headspace to be able to be an astronaut, have to be super physically fit

and super smart. Yes, I mean, the crew of Artemis are in their 40s, aren't they? Yes. It's not actually a job. Well, could it be done by somebody in their 20s? Or would they simply be too inexperienced? Or I don't know, just maybe too psychologically immature? I don't know. You know, that's a really interesting question. But, you know, the astronauts, there's a very diverse group, the astronaut corps, and there's a lot of more senior astronauts that stay and train the younger astronauts. So I think it's just about picking the right person with the right, you know, just the right skill set and the

right profile and the right mix, because you're picking a crew, which is something the administrator talked about is, you know, you're really picking a team that are going to rely on one another, and they're there for one another, and they have really, really complementary skill sets. And so it's really about picking the right people for that particular mission. Sorry, I mean, which psychological flaws would absolutely rule you out? Oh, I don't know. I would think, well, certainly a fear of small spaces. You know, astronauts have to be in point. Seriously. I mean, that's that's that's definitely. Sometimes you see the the the crew compartments and you think, wow. I mean, look at look, look back in time at like the Gemini and the Mercury capsules that the first people went into space in and they're tiny.

So that would definitely be a deal breaker. So as you've mentioned, you've got an incredibly full in trade to be dealing with at the moment. Which out of all of the projects that are coming up, do you think has the most relevance to your average person on this planet? Wow, that's like asking me to pick my favourite child. Let's go for it. They all I mean, they all have. The great thing about the NASA fleet is they really all work together to just explore and to do great things. You know, I think we have a lot of missions that are focusing sort of on our planet and protecting our planet and looking at how climate is changing. And so that's probably got the most direct relevance. We also

have missions that are studying the sun and telling us, you know, what activity is coming towards us here on the planet and what could affect our technology through space weather. And then we have a mission that's going to be returning samples from an asteroid so that it comes back. The samples get re-delivered to us here at Earth September 24th of this year. And it's bringing back samples of a carbaceous asteroid. And so this is an asteroid that's been around even before our solar system or as our solar system was forming. And so we think in these samples, it's going to have some of the sort of precursors of, you know, our solar system. So how things like, you know, the signatures of how planets form and maybe how our planet was able to sustain water.

And so, you know, that's a highly relevant mission also, returning stuff from an asteroid. Working for NASA, it's not for short termists, is it? Because it can take decades for projects to come to fruition. Yes, we usually say, you know, the space business is not for the faint of heart. Everything we do is really tough. And so the mission I spoke about earlier, the Parker Solar Probe, was 60 years from the first time somebody said, well, that would be a really good idea to do that mission to actually launching was 60 years. And it's just because you have to mature the technology and you have to, you know, have all the right tools to be able to do the job. And we had to create materials that didn't even exist 60 years ago. And if you

think about, you know, just if you wanted to make it, so if you want to make a phone call, that's, let's take an easy analogy. And, you. And you had a rotary dial phone and that was all you had. And now you hold in the palm of your hand more technology than would have, it would have been city blocks worth of buildings of hardware to do what you can do with the phone in your hand. And so just thinking about the jump in technology, the miniaturization of everything, the lightweighting, all that kind of maturity, that's what we needed to be able to fly some of these missions. So you are working on projects right now. There are NASA representatives hard at it as we speak, who's, well, they won't see their life's work, will they? It will happen probably long after they're dead. Well, for some people, yes.

You know, if you're later in your career and you're starting a mission, then you do run the risk maybe of not seeing it. But Gene Parker was the inspiration for the Parker Solar Probe and he was with us at the launch and he got to see all of the first data come back. So it's not, I mean, there are a lot of people

that do get to see their life's work come to fruition. Most missions take maybe about 10 years from beginning to launch. Some are quicker. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books.

Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. You're listening to Off Air and our guest today is Dr. Nicola Fox, Head of Science at NASA. We asked Nicola if anybody at NASA had objected a little bit to a British person getting the top job. I haven't had any objection. I think I've been claimed I think by the US. I've been told many times I'm a US now. Are you a US citizen? Yes, I am. Okay, but Hitchin, I have to say, still very much wants

to identify with you. So you're not going to get off that lightly. Has anybody in your career actually said to you, or even hinted in your direction that you couldn't achieve what you wanted to achieve? No, I've really had mostly a very nurturing time. I, you know, there were some people maybe when I was at college that I suffered a little bit from imposter syndrome when I was at college and the worry about, you know, if you ask a question, maybe you'll look stupid. And, you know, so you just don't ask the questions. But that was about all. Is that your advice then? There is no such thing as a stupid question?

Absolutely. And I work a lot with particularly younger women, maybe having some challenges and I'll always be the one who asks the dumb question, the one that you think, I'm just going to ask this, because when I ask it, everybody else is going to feel totally comfortable asking their questions. And so, you know, yes, there's no dumb question. Being a scientist is really about asking questions.

It's about wanting to know more and to have, you know, a curiosity to want to know how things work or how things came about or, you know, just want to know more about things. So asking questions is incredibly important. And do you think that you had that curiosity right from the get-go? There is this lovely story that you tell about your dad showing you how the solar system were using, what was it, objects in a hotel room on a holiday somewhere yes in spain yeah can you remember which objects he used for which planets um i remember there was definitely the lamp on the bedside table was the sun and then there was a couple of water glasses uh for the

the earth and and the moon moving around and then I think it was, you know, probably like a wedding ring or something that he found around the hotel room that he used for different planets to sort of put them in the right place. So just random objects. There's probably a teddy bear in there as well. So I think we all have this incredible curiosity, don't we, about space and how everything works when we're children. But then I think something makes us feel that unless we're super clever, we can't carry on with that curiosity. Does that make sense to you? It seems to then belong to people who choose those subjects at school. We leave it all to them. And that seems a bit of a shame, actually, doesn't it?

Yes. But if you actually look across a NASA mission, there are many, many, many very diverse careers paths that can come in to work on a NASA mission. You know, we have people that do our budgets, we have lawyers, we have people that do our schedules, we have people that do all that incredible artwork that you see, we have people that do all the communications that tell the stories of the missions that we have. We have people that do all the communications that tell the stories of the missions that we have. You know, you have all kinds of different engineers. I mean, there's a very wide ranging group of people that work at NASA that actually implement these missions. So even if you don't want to be a, you know, a space physicist or an aeronautical

engineer, there are many other career parts that can bring you into NASA missions. Are you remotely concerned that space appears to be a place for not just white men, but incredibly rich white men? I mean, I'm talking about Branson, Bezos, Elon Musk. It does appear to be almost a playground of the mega rich male, or am I being a bit overdramatic? No, I mean, the great thing about having all these sort of new commercial interests in space is it's really pushed our ability to do more with space. We really value our commercial partnerships,, of course, our international partnerships. But if you think about how many launches we have, really the opening up, getting science to space, getting people to space even, with the commercial crew that have been launching up to the International Space Station, as well, of course, as our wonderful Artemis astronauts that were just selected.

So I really think that it's driven technology and it's lowered the boundaries of what we can do in space. And you are actually, I think NASA is cooperating with Elon Musk's company to make a transporter or a moon lander piece of equipment, a vehicle. Yes, we have a number of partnerships with many different companies doing different ways of getting to land on the moon, to take crew into space. And so, yes, they're really, really valuable partnerships. And what about space law? Would it be fair to say that space is governed almost in the same way that the world is governed, which is definitely more power to the richer nations? Well, there's international space treaties, there's the peaceful use of outer space. I mean, there's many, many policies that govern how we use space. And we are partnering with a lot of emerging partnerships, new countries that are coming into the space business. So we're really working to open up space for everybody.

Would it be in any way possible for you to have had the career you've had if you'd stayed in Britain? I mean, the answer is plainly no. But do you feel that the US is simply a better place for women with your sort of qualifications? Well, I'll say that the new head of space at ESA is also a woman. Dr. Carol Mundell was recently announced. She's a wonderful, wonderful woman. We've formed a great friendship on our first meeting. And so there are just different paths and different ways to get to places that you want to go. And honestly,

when I set out, I didn't think I'd ever be the head of science at NASA. So, you know, you, you, I think you take your, you take your steps in life one step at a time, and then you find out where you're going to end up. So if I'd stayed in the UK, you know, I probably would have taken a different path. But I, so I would not have been the head of science at NASA obviously but there are different different paths and different different things for everybody yeah and effectively you were at a were you at a meeting in Alaska and you sort of got a pat on the shoulder and someone said look you know do you fancy coming to work for NASA was it really that simple um So that's actually true.

I was at a meeting in Alaska and a scientist said, would you be interested in applying for a postdoc? I actually did not know that was even an option for me at the time. So, of course, I said, yes, that would be wonderful. And then you realize how complicated the application process is. It isn't just a quick, oh, yeah, that sounds great. I'll buy my ticket. You know, you have to write a proposal and get lots of letters of support and various things. And you put together an application package, which was quite an experience in itself, I have to say. But so I put in the application and I was selected. But if that had not happened,

I wouldn't have even known that there was an opportunity to put an application in. But you obviously when you get an offer like that, you're not going to say you're not going to say, oh, no, no, thanks. You're just not, are you? No, I'm a bit busy this week. Try me next week. No, not at all. I jumped at the chance. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I've watched you speak and you have a really nice, very winning line in self-deprecation. And I don't know whether that's because you're British or whether you're female or whether actually when you work in an industry like yours, you do move amongst some of

the most gifted and incredible people around, don't you? You're just surrounded by greatness. Yes, that's true. And that's actually the thing I think I enjoy the most about my NASA career and obviously my NASA mission career is working in these incredibly high performing teams. And at the Applied Physics Lab, working on Parker Solar Probe, just seeing how all of the team members are there for one another. And, you know, so rather, like I said, about the astronauts and having the matching skill sets and being a crew, you know, all of our NASA mission teams are kind of like that. So being in the clean room with Solar Probe right before launch and seeing all of the different engineers just adapting for one another, you know, you need to run this test at this time. That's okay. I'll come in and do my test at four in the morning or whatever.

But because when you're down to the wire, that's what you do. And just seeing that just the sort of the nurturing way NASA teams work is just really incredible. And that goes all the way into NASA headquarters. The heliophysics division was just a wonderful place to work with a great group of individuals. And now sort of taking that next step up over the whole science mission directorate and just seeing these incredibly gifted scientists and engineers and policy people and, you know, just everybody that works in our team to make these NASA missions happen. that works in our team to make these NASA missions happen. And do you think working in space and with these huge concepts and also aiming for positivity and knowledge,

does that do something to your own psyche where you find it easier not to sweat the small stuff? I think I'm getting better at that. There are days when I come home, you know, and something small and trivial bothers you. And then you just think, yeah, this is really small and trivial in the great scheme of things. But, you know, in the moment, it's not small and trivial to you. You know, you've stubbed your toe or something and the entire world shrinks to the pain in your toe. But I do try and surf a little bit above it. But it doesn't mean I don't get

bothered by the small things anymore. It must be incredible for your family. You know, when people move on from their hometown and go on to live their life, and maybe their parents or other friends and neighbours meet up, and they might say, what's Nicola up to these days? I mean, it's not bad for them to be able to say, oh, oh, haven't you heard? She's the head of science at NASA. I mean, they're going to win every time, aren't they? They are both very proud. Yes. Dr. Nicola Fox, it really was a great privilege to be able to talk to her and just hear a little bit about her, her career and how she got there. And that just happened to be at that meeting in Alaska

and got a tap on the shoulder and someone said, look, come on, come and work for us at NASA. It must have been quite a moment. And obviously it was an invitation she was never going to turn down. Thank you very much for listening and get well soon, Fi. And we will reconvene, well, we'll all reconvene in a week or so's time. But Fi will be back here on monday and live on times radio with ed vasey have a very very happy easter

well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car

on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that.

A lady listener? I'm sorry. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone