Off Air... with Jane and Fi - It's ALL about Disco Dollies, Romford (with David Szalay)

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

Your travel correspondents, Jane and Fi, bring you this edition of the podcast. They’ve ridden the trains to work - they're just like us! They ask: is kitchen towel actually relevant? Do companies hear you when they put you on hold? Will moving pavements ever become a thing? 'What have you got for lunch?'Plus, author David Szalay discusses his book Flesh, winner of the Booker Prize. Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was coming into work today on the tube. Women of the people, we both take the tube, don't we? Oh, we do. Yep. It always makes me laugh when there's a celebrity on a bus coming back for an award ceremony. Always post about it, don't they? Oh, yes, they let it be know. People of the people.

Speaking of which, I forgot to mention, I saw, and I think it's okay to say, I saw Tracy Thorne on the underground the other day. Do? I can't, well, you can't, actually, it's quite difficult to hum and everything, but the girl opener, isn't it? Do love her voice. I really love her voice. Anyway, she was on the northern line.

She has everything but the girl. Yes, oh yeah, yeah. And I nearly spoke to her. A temporary blank there. But then I just thought, no, she doesn't know. And we've interviewed her. Yes, I don't. Did we do it in person, though?

I forget with those lockdown ones who was behind a Zoom. We did it, IRL. Did we? In the funny little cafe in the broadcasting house? Near the Daleks. That's it. Near the Daleks.

And the strictly little boy. Yeah. And that little shop in the BBC, I think they could do with a bit more merch, actually. Don't give them ideas. A slightly funnier merch. Because it was all pretty statutory stuff.

Yeah. Anyway, she is one of my musical heroines. But I don't, sometimes you don't, just people don't always want to be spoken to, do they? She looked like she was in the commuting zone to me. Yeah, and fair enough. Some bitty.

poking her on the shoulder. Probably wouldn't be what she wanted. However, if you ever spot me on the underground, come and chat, people have, and it's lovely. Yes, you are a magnet for hellos. Just don't ask for directions. Because I'll give them, but they won't be helpful. So my problem on the tube this morning

was just everybody had obviously perfumed themselves after their morning shower. I was on a tube a little bit earlier because I went via an event. And it was just overwhelming, actually, Jane. Do you find that? Yeah. And I wondered whether there's actually something

in our modern sense that is more powerful or whether people are just putting more on. More on. Sorry. Putting people on. Putting more on. It just sounded funny.

That would be a good name for an after show. More on. More on. What kind of smell would that be? Put more on. Can't be bothered washing? Put more on. It's genius.

Yeah. But do you ever notice that that everybody just is really, really wiffy now? I've discovered a new route to work on London's obviously less than fashionable central line because you can always get a seat and there's Wi-Fi. Now the seats are very, very dirty.

Yeah, could we just answer the question? But... Then we'll get to your thoughts on the central line. But honestly, there's no one on it. I don't understand it. Okay, so there's no smell. So this morning, absolutely no smell at all. But there's probably something coming off those.

That seating on the underground has done some work, hasn't it? Very much so. Put a few shifts in. I mean, honestly, the backside that have parked themselves on that. What is the material on an underground? Do you know what the material is here? I don't know. It comes from a different place in time.

Why is it not leather? Well, it's expensive. Then you could wipe it down. I don't even know. Oh, I see. You want to wipe clean surface. I want to be able to anti-backet. Yeah, I hear you.

But it must be made of the kind of plastic that you can, even though it's made to look like upholstery, that you can actually just hose it down. Please tell us if you know what it is, because I'd love to know. I always worry about bed bugs on the tube, on the upholstered lines. Probably rightly. Yep. And weirdly, actually, just over the last couple of days,

I have taken both the Northern liner. The Bakerloo line, stay with me, everybody. No, stay with me, everybody. And usually, yeah, usually I'm only on the Jubilee and the Overground. Yes, yes. And the Jubilee and the Overground are lovely lines, because you can see things,

and the Jubilee line is a little bit more modern, but bloody hell, some of the old-fashioned ones. The Baker-Loo line, it's just, that screech cannot be safe. The decibels in that screech cannot. be safe. There are still people trying to get to work in 195 on the Bakerloo line. Just these skeletons with briefcases.

Anyway, I'm just going to put it out there. Is something happened with my nose or are people just wearing more perfume or is there something just a little bit more potent in the stuff that people are putting on? Because it was just, it was extraordinary. It was like walking through selfridges or other departments store, perfumier department today. It was just horrendous.

actually. I found it invasive, Jane. I do think it's interesting. I wear some sort of scent every single day. I don't know whether anyone ever notices, by the way. And I, Eve, have you smelt her fragrance on arrival? Have you ever smelt me? I cannot say I have. Exactly. I think, well, I mean, is it, it's not particularly cheap what I wear. I don't particularly have a favoured one. I like some others more than the one. I don't. I just immediately, it's the last thing I do before I leave the house is I apply a bit of perfume. Now, I've all, Do you share with the group what you're wearing, please? Today? Yes. You're wearing today? You see, that's the BBC merchandising opportunity they've missed.

Wake up with the centre of Amol and Emma. Today. Oh, God. That would be the whiff of ambition, that would. Right. I think what you mean is the whiff of success. Yes. No, absolutely.

Yes. What are you wearing today? And when nighttime comes, why not wear the world tonight? I like that pretty show. Don't knock it. What am I... Well, it's just a joe. I don't actually know which one it is. I think it might be... Is it pear and something?

Pear and custard? Oh, I know the one you mean. Pear and Freebie. I think it might be that one. So, but... I don't know why I've... And I've always done this. Do you always wear perfume every single day?

I do. Yeah. But it's like something I've done... Can you smell me? I've never... I've never smelt you. So what's the point? I don't know. We're just asking... Anyway, why we started this, I don't know.

I want to talk about Reg Varnie, really. But we're not straying. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it very much. We're not straying from public transport very far. You mentioned the actor Regvani from on the buses, says Bev, I've got a fun fact for you. And I didn't know this, and I'm enjoying this fact.

The Barclays Bank here in Enfield, which is North London. Yeah. Was home to the world's first ever what? It was home to the first ever. bus with a bus conductor on it? No, cash machine. Which was opened

and I love this, opened by Reg Farnie. Beep, beep, beep! He withdrew a tenor and there is now a commemorative photo on display inside the bank. That's fabulous. Well, you should be very proud of the fact that you've still got a bank that you can go inside.

You just can't find them now, can't? No, you can't. It's a topical comment. Yes, it is. A little bit of a point. politics. What a wonderful thing for Enfield to know that they were the first

ever cash machine presumably in the world. I wonder whether there's a directory somewhere of things that celebrities and actors and just plain old personalities Jane have opened over the years

because it would make the most fantastic coffee table book wouldn't it? Well it would. Oh God it would. Especially people with very very big scissors cutting a big ribbon. I think you're onto something. Open something or pulling the curtain. That would be a wonderful coffee table book, wouldn't it? You know those books? I just said that. Oh, did you?

I don't know what's wrong with us today. Maybe I should correct that, but don't know what's wrong with me today. Or you, actually. You're quite peculiar. So let's just acknowledge it. It would be, can we both agree would be a wonderful coffee table book along the lines of dull postcards and things like that? Very much. Roundabouts of Great Britain. But in truth,

Most things in Britain are open by the Princess Royal. I mean, she does do most of them. So you could just have a whole kind of mini compendium at the back, just small pictures of her opening everything. But if you can't get her, you might have to be, just go down the pecking order a little bit and hire somebody off the telly. Oh, Bill Roach.

You know, I'm sure he must have opened something in his day. That's Coronation Street legend, Bill Roach. But he's, I think he's now in his 90s fee. Yeah, but he's the type of person who I like to think would have been called upon to open a new public toilet or wing of a school or a hospital or something like that. I think it's how a lot of particularly soap actors, they actually make their real money from doing these public appearances, don't they? And in nightclubs.

And so it's not just toilets and cash machines. You can make quite a lot chunk of money by turning up at disco dollies in Romford just for 10 minutes on a Thursday night. Well, this is an interesting avenue of Jane's career yet to be explored on the photographs. No, they're on. Very specific. Can you remember the exact day? Did it not go well?

Let's move on to a listener email. I don't know what's happened today either. I'm sorry. I sometimes think, I think what's going to happen with the visualization, because we visualised yesterday, didn't we? I think I'm going to be so glad to come back to just audio. Tuesdays might always be a bit giddy. I think you might be right there.

Do you think that's it? I think it is. Yeah. Well, I tell you what has made me a bit giddy today, and I'm imagining it had the same impact on you, is that a man has emailed to praise our book. Have you seen this? Yes.

That's lovely. Could you read that out in its entirety? I absolutely will, colleague. It's from Adam. Lots of love to you, Adam. I'm a mid-30s male listener. I've been an avid fan ever since the last. last podcast. My Taiwanese husband says he always knows it's about to be suppertime as I start

listening to those two friendly ladies. Well, isn't that lovely in itself? I love to travel, and whenever I get asked about recommendations for British podcasts, I mention off air. It has interesting, varying reactions. In Taiwan, you were seen as wise sages. We'll take that, won't we? In Egypt, serious political commentators, happy with that too. And in Italy, I need to blow my nose. Oh, okay. Can we just wait? Thanks, Adam.

Oh, no. Not that again. No. That cold. The one that... Oh, I know. Just to say it lingers. And in Italy, as intelligent clowns,

to bring a smile to weary listeners. Well, I think Italy's having some problems at the moment, so I think we're happy with that too. Yeah. I just wanted to write to say that you shouldn't be so dismissive of your book. Have we been dismissive? I loved it, says Adam. I read it when I was going through a stressful time at work

and honestly it was, I love this, unput-downable. Watching the Louis Theroux documentary recently, I found it thoroughly depressing, especially as some of the basics, striving to do your best, being independent, being loyal and honest, staying healthy, are good ways to live

and it's been twisted into something so toxic. I think we'd both agree there, wouldn't we? There's absolutely nothing wrong with being fit and having self-respect, absolutely nothing. I do think I would, wish young men could read your book as an antidote as it normalises imperfection and ordinary lives shows why women don't need a so-called alpha and will give men contact with women's interior lives without seeming like a lecture. Well, I think, I mean, whilst I'd love to think that an 18-year-old

bloke would put up with our witterings in, did I say that out loud, I don't think that's plausible. What do you think? It's not plausible, but I'm very grateful to you for having enjoyed the book. and having thought about the book and some of the stuff that we've written in the book. And actually there is a whole chapter about celebrating the beta male and why celebrating the alpha male has brought the world to its knees. And actually what the alpha male seems to think women want, in my experience, is just completely and utterly wrong.

Yeah. And that's what the 13 and 14-year-olds who are so susceptible to these idiotic messages actually need to hear. much so. But who's going to tell them? Well, perhaps you could, Adam. I mean, I love Adam's idea. He said, perhaps you could write a work of fiction together with each of you writing a chapter. No, I don't think we could, Adam, but it's lovely of you, and the very best to you and your husband, and you've had an... I don't know whether you mean you've lived in Taiwan and in Egypt and in Italy, but what a fascinating life. Or it just... You're a man who travels a lot and

read slowly. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Whatever it is, we're very grateful. And thank you very much for making contact. Just on that topic as well, David Soley is our guest on this podcast. He is the author of, I think he's written six novels. And Flesh, his latest novel, won the Booker Prize last year. I think very deservedly so, Jane. It's about one man's life.

And it's told in quite kind of sparse terms just about the relationships that define his life. And there's an insight into the male gaze. without, it's very straight talking. I mean, it's definitely about a man who lives his life thinking he's in the alpha lane. But it's very interesting because actually his life is really entirely controlled by the relationships he has with women along the way

and he is not in control of them. So there's plenty to talk about and I cannot wait to ask David Sully, lots of questions. and hopefully we will have time to talk about the Manosphere and just the way, I mean his fictionalised account of this guy Ischfan's journey through life to me is better than any documentary I am ever going to watch on the Manosphere

any documentary, you know, any piece of... So how old is the character ages through the book? He ages through the book, but I'm not explained this very well and David will explain it better. It's a real eye-opener. as to what women think of alpha men, and so how many people are drawn into trying to be alpha,

when they're just not inside. It's a really powerful male voice that comes through on the page, and I think it's a really, really, really good book. I kept on thinking all the way through, because the book starts with this young guy, he's only 15, being kind to an older female neighbor, and she then takes advantage of him, and kind of goads him into a sexual relationship with her.

And I think the book is entirely about a man trying to deal with that having been his first sexual experience. Okay. And it's abuse. But the way that you think about it when you're reading it, I think is different to the way I would have thought about a book where it would have been an older man abusing a young girl. So there is a lot to talk about there as well.

Yeah. And it's set in... It's all over the place. Okay. So it's... It starts off in Hungary, ends up in Hungary, but at some points it's in Hertfordshire as well. Hartfordshire? Yes.

I mean, that's getting another airing. It is, yeah. But it's an intriguing book. I'm really glad I've read it. I can see why it won the prize. And we were mentioning yesterday that documentary. Was it in the office or on the podcast? I can't remember.

Mr. Nobody Against Putin. Yes. Well, I did watch that last night. What did you think? I really, gosh, I found it sad. I found it sad for a multitude of reasons. I found the children heartbreaking because as you were saying yesterday, they can't help.

I mean, none of us can help where we live, where we're born, what our government is like when we're at school. It's nothing to do with us, but we just have to live with the complexities and the challenges that government may or may not present to us. I just, the kind of the children being made to do this absurd, sort of nationalistic rewriting of their history. Oh, God.

I mean, and the teachers. teachers who, I mean, there's very, that, is it the history teacher? It's a deeply sinister presence wins an award. I mean, oh, I do recommend, I mean, it's, if you've got, it's about an hour and a half long, isn't it? It's so worth your time. If you vaguely think you know about what's going on in Russia, this is such a brilliant illustration of what's happening on the ground. Isn't it? Never seen anything like it. I don't think there's ever been access to an educational establishment in, in contemporary Russia, like you get in that, in that, in the world. that documentary. I really, really loved it because when we report on Russia and we just say

kind of in passing, don't we, that the Russian propaganda machine is powerful. It doesn't convey what the Russian propaganda machine is. And you know, I'm watching it, absurdly, what kept coming back into my head and don't laugh is the song that Sting wrote. Do you remember Sting's song, The Russians Love Their Children too? Oh my goodness, I haven't thought of that feeling. Well, no, I haven't thought about it either. I can't remember which album it's on, but it was during, it was a sort of Cold War,

rather mournful Cold War song about let's not ever forget they're humans like we are. It's around the same time as Elton John's Nikita. Yes. Checkpoint Charlie, love story. That's wrong, Lakeita, yes. There haven't been that many contemporary pop songs about global conflict or the impact of it or the possibility of it.

So the ones you do remember are, I think, quite significant. Anyway, so credit to Sting for coming up with that. I mean, not especially sophisticated song, but at least he wrote it. Yeah, and I couldn't get it out of my head last night, having watched that documentary. They're just like us. And is it Carabash, the city that features... It's Calabash. Is it Calabash?

It's not a fantastic place. It does look, frankly, a bit grim. But Pasha, it's Pasha the teacher, isn't it? But he loves it. Yeah. And when he talks with such pride about the city and about the pipes in the copper mining facility that's pumping out all of this pollution,

it's the most polluted city in Russia, which is saying something as well. It's not a pretty place at all. I worry for his future, Pasha's future, because he's not safe having made that. It's so exposing of the... of the Russian machine. And it is a machine, my God, it's a machine.

I hope he's got enough stuff around him to keep him safe. I don't think it's ever been the case, and people can correct us, but there's never been a time in Britain where you start your school day by singing the national anthem or anything like that, has that? I don't know. It didn't happen in my lifetime. It didn't happen in our school.

We did have to sing a hymn, and that was absolutely lovely. Yes. It was a great big, you know, one of those great big, in massive kind of font on A1 paper. So even you could see it. Even I could see it. No excuse. It was always really exciting

when you were the monitor that was given that allotted task of getting the right hymn for the right day. Were you a monitor? No, I very rarely got to do it because I just couldn't reach. Oh, God.

At a moment I might sort of blow my nose. No, not again. So there is a lot of good stuff out there to watch, isn't there at the moment? That is very, very thought-provoking. And that's good because actually my daughter and I got slightly dragged into maths again. Such sad news today. Are you a maths fan?

Well, I know what you mean, but I'm afraid I hadn't ever seen it. Okay, so Mel Schilling, who's one of the therapists and kind of presenters of married at first sight, has died. She's only in her 50s. And do you know what? I was so, so sad to see that today, Jane, because she had cancer. and I think that our mindset about cancer is a bit still in two places, isn't it? Because when you hear that somebody has cancer now, I think there is a hope that it's okay. If they're in their 50s or whatever.

You know, they will be all right. And actually it is still a killer disease. It takes out people in the prime of their life. It takes out people far too young. and I'm genuinely, genuinely sad. I think she was fantastic as a presenter. She brought a right old sparkle to a programme that can just be knee deep in its own ridiculous,

therapising, over-flummoxing language and navel-gazing. And she'll be very, very missed. I was very sad to see that she had gone. Well, that is sad, because those programmes I know, well, they can't actually, programs of that nature can act as a bonding, tool for a parent and child, can't they? So much so...

They're actually really important. Yeah, they enable you to talk about relationships in, you know, quite a kind of scathing but honest way and see the best of relationships and the very worst of relationships. And I mean, God knows why anybody puts themselves up for them. Well, I would ask why you would. Could money be involved? I don't know. Is it so exposing?

Blimey O'Reilly. I don't know. I mean, I'm intrigued by the way by the number of people who have commented on kitchen towel. Well, because a lot of people are with you. They don't use it. They like cloths. But there are some people who are very, very upset that I don't have kitchen towel. I don't think there's any need to be upset.

No, there's no need to be upset. We're coping. We're okay. Although every time I use kitchen towel over the weekend, I was thinking, if you wouldn't be doing this. Sandra is in St. Neat's. Is that in Cambridgeshire? It is. I've often thought of emailing you,

but this morning I thought I really should. You're our sort of person, Sandra. She says I was in my garden hanging out the washing while enjoying the glorious spring weather with daffodils and higher synths, looking their colourful best, and a blackbird singing his little socks off. Welcome to England in the spring.

It can be such a wonderful place, it really can. And I thought back to your recent discussion of upstairs laundry rooms. One of you asked why laundry rooms are normally located downstairs, and surely this is the reason to be close to the outside washing line. I can't be the only person in the country to still peg out washing, even though it may be quicker and more convenient to bung it all into the tumble dryer. Just think of the environment, not to mention the satisfaction of seeing all your clean laundry soaking up the lovely outdoor

smells. We're back to smells. I mean, I have to say, Sandra, it does somewhat depend on what the lovely outdoor smells are. Now, farmers have been doing something with their fields. I mean, you might get a bit of a whiff, mightn't you? I think in London there is a genuine problem with pollution as well, where your whites don't come back in. Well, very white. So I don't disagree with that at all. Of course, it's incredibly logical,

but we don't hang our washing outside and we don't have a tumble dryer. What do you do then? So we've got Sheila maids on, you know, the wooden things that come down from the ceiling. Just a reminder, fees house is on the market. Yes. I think the Sheila-maids actually add to it.

One of the few things that adds to it. Obviously, the other things are the broken toilet. Don't. Don't add to me. Just take it, she takes these honesty tablets, and I've told her to just wean yourself off them. Okay, so you pull them down on a pulley system. Yes, they're on a pulley system.

And I'll tell you what, I'd just, I would, I mean, fair enough, If you've got a garden and a place with fresh air, I completely get that your laundry is beautiful and lovely. And, you know, it's better for everybody all round. We're relatively close to a very, very big road in London. And I do always think... The M1. The house is still on the market.

Good point. We're miles for any roads. I'm going to stop, Jane. You're just... I'm just crazy. Right. Back with Sandra Nietz. I am retired and I have more time than many others. But even in the old days when my children were young,

I found hanging out washing a chore that I enjoyed. Sandra, I am so with you. I absolutely, to me, that marks the beginning of a change in the seasons. There's a spring in my step. I love to see sheets and things bobbing around in the beautiful environment of East West Kensington as spring hits us. I even used to hang out Terry nappies before disposable ones became reliable

and more affordable, although admittedly they were much softer when tumble dried. I mean, that is true. There's no doubt about that. A towel on the line is not a friend to your delicate parts, is it? When you get out of the shower.

Have I phrased that? Just say that last bit again. What? It can be a bit brisk to give yourself a rub down with a towel that's dried on the line. Oh, because it's a bit, yes, it's an expo-e scratching thing, isn't it? Yeah.

Quite painful. Sandra, thank you for that, and love you to hear about you just enjoy relishing the wonderful change in the seasons. Hello darling, says Caroline. I came across this bench in Central Park a few years ago on a family holiday. I'm definitely with Rhoda. At Central Park Benches is well worth a look on the Insta. And this is the legend that's on a bench.

In memory of Rhoda Lee Bouch and her beloved dog Emma, Rhoda love birds and other animals. People, not so much. I like that very much. I like that too. Now, three things in one come in from Sophie. Yeah. Glasses wipes.

I'd highly recommend the Spec Savers glasses spray with one of those little cloths that comes in glasses cases. Just make sure to wash the cloth every now and then. They're having worn glasses for around 20 years. I got Lasic last year. That's the laser surgery. You had it ages ago, didn't you?

I did. But I had it for my short sight. And it absolutely cured it. It was absolutely wonderful. Why are you wearing glasses now? Well, because I got old. and two weeks after I had my short sight corrected and it was amazing, I began to be long-sighted and needed reading glasses.

So I can't keep up with it. That's life, everybody. And do they warn you about that when you go for laser surgery? They probably did, but I mean, I think there's now a surgery that will correct everything, including long-sight, but I just, I quite like wearing glasses, so I'm not bothered, really. I do love the fact that I don't need to wear glasses and I can more or less, although you know I'm always falling over

and tripping over and bumping into things, I can more or less walk around unaided in the city of London. Eve, do you think that's true? Absolutely not. No, I'm with you on that. I did not go a load of pens at the studio this morning. I'll drop it in. I'd be worried about the size if I were you.

Anyway, in at number two, pineapples and swingers, my regular dog walking route, we're back with Sophie, by the way, takes me around some of the most expensive houses in the Paolo Alto Menlo Park area near San Francisco. Think at least $10 million.

And there's one particular house that decorates before parties with pineapples and flamingos. And the flamingos are another symbol of swingers, Jane. Are they? Had to Google what an earth the theme was. It was quite a shock. In at number three, self-driving cars,

we have them around here, and I can confirm they don't drive well at all. This is our worry, isn't it, Jane? It very much is. They're picking up on driving habits that are very, very poor indeed. They don't come to a stop at stop signs. Ironically, something I failed my first American driving test for, despite having driven in the UK for 10 years before moving.

Thank you for providing a platform for sharing such diverse topics. So, Sophie, I'm very worried about the self-drive thing. And I know that we're all going to have to get over this. I was trying to think if there was anything it was like. Well, what we were fearful of before that then actually turned out to be safer than humans because it is true you know car accidents are taking way too many people's lives and you know hurting people yeah so but but i can't it's a it's a massive leap to make actually isn't it that's the problem i sort of i think in my head i put driverless

cars and i'm probably wrong to do this in the same uh chunk of headspaces you know the future consisting entirely of moving pavements no no moving pavements we just never had moving pavements I know, but I think we can get away without moving pavements. I know, but we were promised them. Who promised them? When I was... Harold Wilson's government. Yes, I distinctly remember. I was only seven, but I distinctly remember.

Is that the top of the manifesto? Moving pavements. The future will contain moving pavements, or so I was assured. It hasn't. No, it hasn't. Apart from airports, and I still think you're quicker to walk. You can be. Kitchen roll.

Sarah says, it might be trivial, but I just can't do with that kitchen roll. My best use is wiping out a greasy cooking dish and then spreading a sheet on the base of adding a squirt of washing up liquid and hot water and leaving it to soak a bit it works wonders, making it much easier to wash as far less greasy. That's a very good tip.

Yeah. But of course you can't do that because you don't have any. But when I read that this morning, it was yesterday mornings I think, I did think I can just do that with my j-cloth, can't I? And then just wash my jay cloth. Somebody implied that I might be wasting

energy by putting a couple of cloths on a 90 degree wash. Well, I don't do that. I put them in with other things that need an almost boil wash. Basically my towels or my cottons, especially a fitted sheet. So I hope we cleared

that out. That's quite the insight, thank very much. Would you like a short poem written by Brian Bilston? Yes, please. It's sent him by Iris. It's called The Power of Poetry, with things falling apart, an an anarchy let loose. It was only poetry

he found which had any use. So he reached for his copy of the complete works of Yates and Bludgeoned the President of the United States. Thank you for sending that in Iris. We would very much like to hear from anybody who knows somebody or is somebody who is nearly 80 years old.

Female, if you've got a slight regional accent in particular, would you like to voice up some excerpts that we've narrowed down? from speeches made by the orange blimp and we're just going to see how it sounds and the jury's out may sound completely normal

oh yeah might sound a little bit weird so seriously if that's you or you know somebody you can just do it on a voice note we'll send you the excerpts yes bung it on a voice note and we'll shove it in the podcast and just see and the only thing that we're trying to prove is just whether or not we're all standing a little bit too far back from the reality when we allow Donald Trump's just

carry on making these speeches. I mean, I don't know how many times we can call him out, because it's pointless, isn't we? We don't get anywhere with it, do we? But yes, I'm really keen to have some of his more peculiar, although they're all peculiar, statements read out by somebody who's feet on the ground, resident of planet Earth.

Yesterday he said that, basically, if they didn't get their way with Iran, then America was going to carry on bombing our little hearts out. Yeah. I don't know whether young people need to know that that sort of thing wouldn't be said normally by international states people. I just wouldn't. No. And if we saw Putin say that or Kim Jong-un, back in the day Kim Jong-il, if we saw them say that, we'd say, you're a mad dictator. That's the second political comment you've made in this podcast. I'm going to stop now. Now I had reason this morning to call a local council

and I didn't know what is answered by the recorded message I'm joking. The recorded message warning me that I'd been in an extreme amount of trouble if I was abusive went on for about three minutes. I mean I'm quite a patient reasonably level-headed individual and I was spitting tax by the end of oh we'll shout in a minute if you don't stop telling me not to shout or be abusive But it is a measure of how fast standards have fallen that they have to have this thing. So it has made me think about recorded messages

and what happens when you make contact with people. Alex says, I can give you a more informed answer as to recorded calls in contact centres. I'm a service manager, so the person who listens to these calls, and yes, by continuing your call, you are always giving your consent to be recorded.

These recordings are important for training and complaint resolution, but there are really strict rules re-data protection on their storage and accessibility. I've listened to hundreds of calls into our centre and I can honestly say that customers don't take calls recorded as a warning. Sadly, it just doesn't stop the screaming and shouting. Maybe he says they should go on a cruise to relieve their stress. Yes, because Alex had been on a swanky cruise around the Caribbean

a couple of years ago and the cabin doors were metal. so quite easily decorated with magnets. It was just before Christmas. So there were lots of Christmas decorations on the doors, but we did see a couple of unusual things, including, yes, the odd upside-down pineapple. We also saw a cabin door with a whiteboard on which there were a couple of names.

I later found out from a friend of mine who is more worldly wise than me that this is an invitation to add your name if you'd like to make some new friends. I've just realised that Alexandra is actually female, so Alexandra, sorry about that. You see, when Alex mentioned that they were, you know, in management, I naturally made the assumption. God, isn't that terrible?

That is terrible. How long were you on the woman's? Oh, gosh, 155 tremulous years. Thank you for that. And this is from Emma. Do they keep recording of these contact centres when they put you on hold? At this point, I have to remember that they are the ones muted, not me. And I think that's quite significant.

Usually I start muttering, fuck's sake, here we go. I'll probably be cut off. Oh, great. Now I'll be waiting another 20 minutes before I'm put through to yet another person who's got no idea about my problem. And then suddenly I think they can probably still hear me. Could they? I don't know.

It was such a good query to raise. That is a good query. Perhaps Alex could get back and tell us whether, when you're on mute listening to the lift music, whether they can hear all your heavy breathing, you're shouting at the cat, you're chatting to the, post-person, I mean, can they hear all that? I don't know. No, I don't know either. Do you know whether

or not, and I'm positing this question to our listener, not necessarily to either Eve or Jane, whether you have to sit through an equal amount of time if the caller said to you, do you mind if I just put you on hold while I'd deal with that query? Because you know sometimes when you've been on hold for 41 minutes yourself, listening to green sleeves or whatever it is, and you finally get through. Well, I mean, sometimes I have moved on to doing something else. I might want 42 minutes to just go and hang out the washing or something like that. Would they have to stay?

Are you allowed to turn the tables on there? I mean, you do have an extraordinary amount of time sometimes. I mean, some people must, by people, I mean women, must literally have got pregnant whilst on hold to a contact centre. Because there's loads of time, isn't it? Easley. Well, I mean, I'm not sure whether. I'm not sure whether you're across how that works.

Well, no, let me just put them on hold. If you're on hold and you're listening to the music, and, you know, well, I mean, if that's what's making you frisky, darling, then perhaps. Absolutely. I was just thinking it certainly wouldn't make me frisky. But I just wonder if time is of the essence, then that would give you a window.

Well, it would give you a window. An ovulatory window. Yeah, but then... Potentially, not necessarily. Yeah, but then you'll be completely stuffed or not stuffed. if actually they got to your call quickly. Yeah. So can we just agree

that it's probably wiser not to do that? Let's bring in, I don't know why I said that really, let's bring in anything. Anything at all that would get me out of this hole.

And then we need to wrap it off. We probably do, but we're enjoying ourselves. My stomach is making a lot of goat noise. I've moved on to the tuna flat bread. What are you eating at the moment? Oh, I'm having an egg and water

cress on granary today. Wonderful. Right. Let's bring in listener KN. Grout, because KN., we're very proud of you. They say that their mom has been a big fan of the podcast for over five years, and she got a mention back in 2024. But young KN only left school last year after finishing A-levels. They do say that they're probably one of our younger listeners. I think that's true. They're following their dream of becoming a full-time author with four published cozy crime books. How incredible is that? But the best news is, that they're also a finalist in the Wishing Shelf Book Awards, selected by children across UK primary and secondary schools, with her debut novel, Nicole Raven, A New Awakening. As a fellow woman of the Perfect Heights, 5'2, who focuses on female lead stories,

I thought you'd all enjoy a comical, cozy read, wishing you a happy Easter. Well, we've looked it up, and K.N. Grout's book, Nicole Raven, A New Awakening, is a murder mystery, where dreams and reality collide, suitable for kids, suitable for you if you are indeed a younger person, and out now. And obviously already much loved by young readers.

I mean, four books is going some. It is going some. And how wonderful to want to be a writer and to actually get on and do it. Congratulations. Can we just say that K and N are your initials? Because when you say it out loud like that, it does sound like the pepper, but it's not. Or the Porsche. that divides people's experience of life, doesn't it?

If we played word association and I said K-N, what would you say? I probably... Yes, I probably... Because I'm such a West London Pratt, I probably would say. Pepper. Yeah. Oh, God. No, that's fine.

I think it would be terrible if you said Porsche. Well, I wouldn't say Porsche, would I... There is a Porsche Cayenne, isn't that? I don't know. This is leaving me so far behind all this. I think we need to... Darling, can I just remind you? You've just been advocating.

People get themselves pregnant while they're on hold. So I'm just trying to do something, just something, to leave a different image in people's minds. There is a Porsche KM. Let's get to the cast. Let's get to the guest. Okay. This is, yeah, here's the guest.

Thank God for that. David Soley's book, Flesh, about the life of one man, Ishvan, is often told with emphasis on his sexual encounters and relationships. It's a beautiful insight into the male mind. And I found it quite telling in the one. way it detailed what the female gaze is like on a potentially alpha male body, disregarding the possibility that something maybe more beta might lie underneath. It won the Booker Prize last year. I'm sure that was an honour for its author, but it wouldn't have been a unique experience

because David has also won, and here we go. The Betty Trask Prize, the Geoffrey Faber Memorial Prize for his debut novel, as well as the Gordon Burn Prize and the Plimpton Prize for all that man is. shall I go on? I haven't mentioned the Edge Hill Prize for his short story collection turbulence. What haven't you won? Welcome to the studio. Thank you very much. Anything? Is there anything that's not on the mantelpiece that you actually think, oh, by Jiminy, I need that one too? I think I'm fine for now. Okay. Do you enjoy the attention that comes with winning an award? Yes. I mean, the straight answer, the simple answer is yes, but obviously there's, you know, especially with an award as prominent as the booker, it does. It does.

sort of take over your life to some extent in the months after, which is in itself quite enjoyable. But I haven't been able to do much writing in the last six months, which at some point I'll have to get back to, but it's been good. It always strikes me as going from one end of a creative spectrum into a completely different end of a performers spectrum. When you do this thing at home on your own, quietly getting on with a work of fiction or nonfiction

and then you arrive in a public domain, everybody's got an opinion about the characters that you've created, the story that you've told. Does that sometimes feel a bit odd to you? Yeah, it is a bit odd, but it's also good, I think, because as you say, the process of writing a book, a novel or any kind of book is very solitary. I mean, particularly a novel maybe.

I mean, if you're writing nonfiction, and there'll be research, there'll be, you know, but with a novel, it really is mostly a genuinely solitary activity. And I think most novelists must be people who thrive on that, like that. And, you know, it works for them. But I think you need a bit of sort of jostle with the world. And so it makes a nice contrast to sort of go out there and talk about the book and engage with the world and readers.

but the transition between the two can be a bit weird because they are so different. People have had so many thoughts about your protagonist in flesh. First off, am I pronouncing his name correctly? How would you say? Ishdvan. Ishtvan, okay. And I think he means something different and unique to every reader, but with a very similar theme about the female gaze on a man,

Is that what you wanted to be talking about right from the outset? Well, I mean, that wasn't the only thing I wanted to be talking about, I guess. I mean, obviously the book does, one of the things it does, I suppose, is to sort of invert a more common situation where the sort of part played by Ishtran in this book would be played by a woman. So there is that. And then there's the whole aspect of masculinity, which is part of the book too. But these kind of questions, for me, when I was writing it, they weren't the absolute core of it, I don't think.

I was really trying to write something that I guess was more general than that in a way, more just about the experience of being alive. First of all, the physical experience of being alive. and that's very much at the forefront of the book. That's obviously partly why it's called flesh. But then, of course, other aspects of experience grow out of that and I think are important to the book too. So we join Ishtvan when he's a teenager and he is seduced, although that's a funny word, isn't it?

I mean, he is invited to have a sexual relationship with a much older woman who's his, neighbour that you're absolutely right. If we inverted that into an older man and a young girl, we'd just call it assault and abuse, wouldn't you? Yeah. And I mean, a lot of readers call it that as it stands, or

some feel grooming. It clearly is a very morally murky and troubling situation. And I was, of course, aware of that, and that's in a way

the point of it. And the book itself sort of doesn't explicitly judge it in any way like that. It simply doesn't the book itself simply doesn't come to a judgment but I think that there is a definite sense of

unease of it's shocking it's confronting is a word that has been used a lot about it and it's very dramatic and that was all intentional of course but the sort of withholding of moral judgments

is something that goes throughout the book and it sort of pushes onto the reader a responsibility to make their own moral judgment about what's taking place and I think that that's perhaps partly why people have engaged with the book in the way they have. I think so many of us who've read it

just feel so empathetic towards Ischvan because having had that start of your relationship and sexual journey and he wants it to have a kind of relationship context, doesn't he? He's too young to understand what has happened, which is so often the story in cases of abuse. But because we join him at that point,

it does seem that every other relationship that he has, it kind of comes at him. You know, a woman will come at him because he's obviously an attractive man, although you never really detailed that for us, do you? No, no, I mean, he's never described in the book. And I sort of, when I was writing it, I realized about three chapters in that I hadn't really described him physically in a systematic or detailed way. And then I did make a decision simply not to do that.

I mean, I don't, I think there are a few reasons for that. One is that the book is very much from his point of view. So we're sort of, we're inside his head. We're behind his eyes. And obviously, from that perspective, you don't see him. I mean, visually. and then there's the thing that it doesn't really matter it's a really interesting thing with characters in novels

you can have such a strong sense of this person without having a very specific idea what they look like which is obviously why there's often when when a film is made of a book there's something jarring about it because then that needs to be specified that that aspect of it needs to be fixed and it's just a very weird thing about the experience of reading novel the way you can have such a strong sense of people without the visual aspect. Hugely so. I got to the end of the book, David, and I thought, I don't really know what he

looks like. I've just been carried with him as a person without really having to think that all the way through. I think it's so important when we talk about books, there'll be so many people who, well, there might be just a couple of people who haven't read flesh yet, David. So we shouldn't talk to specifically about what happens throughout the book. But he does go on a remarkable journey, not least he finds himself an incredibly posh, Hertfordshire, at one point, having started out, and definitely not posh, Hungary. What's your connection with those two places in particular? Well, to be honest, I don't have a particularly strong connection with Hartfordshire specifically. With London, I have a very strong connection. I grew up here. I spent the first 35

years of my life pretty much here. And with Hungary, I have a family connection that my father is Hungarian and I visited the country as a kid, you know, many times going back to the late 70s. And I lived there for over a decade more recently. And that was, it was while I was living there that I wrote this book. And this book is, this book is definitely a product of my years living in Hungary. But it's also, you know, it's a very, it's ultimately is a sort of is a London book. I mean, London is the dominant location, if there is one in this book.

And Istran's sort of the encounter between an outsider or a foreigner in London is at the heart of this. You've also got a Canadian connection too. Yes, my mother is Canadian. Okay, so you've got Canada, Hungary and this country. Which border control do you go through and think I'm home? I think here. I think still here in Hungary

although yeah and I live in Vienna now Is that a recent choice It lasts a couple of years I've lived in Vienna for about two and a half years I mean I say I mean I feel I'll always feel somewhat of an outsider in Hungary I don't speak the language

very well and I didn't grow up there And so although I have this very deep family connection there and I've spent a lot of time there, I'll always remain somewhat of an outsider. The same is true of Canada. So having grown up in a place, I think that's what forms a particularly strong connection.

And do all those different countries, and I'm now going to include Austria, do they want a kind of part of you? Yes, yes. Even Austria, which has really quite a tenuous claim here, they did want a little part of it when the book won the prize. Right, okay. Which leaders of all of those countries send you a Christmas card?

Because you've got very different leaders going on. You've got Mark Carney and Canada. You've got Victor Orban in Hungary. I'm afraid I can't tell you who's the leader in Austria at the moment. Me neither. We don't need to know. But that's one of the things I love about Austria. The politics is so boring.

Politics is too interesting in most countries at the moment. And in Austria, it's still boring, which is wonderful. Is it? Okay. How do you write? It's always a question that people who think they can write a book want to know from people who have already written a book. Did you know when you started with Ischfan that he would have a certain ending? Yes, I did. I did.

That tends to be how I work. When I start, I like to know, I say roughly, but actually, you know, in quite specific way where it's going. And that was definitely the case here. And do your characters stay with you when you're not working? Did he pop into your head when you were maybe, you know, trucking around a supermarket in Vienna? Yeah. I mean, it's more likely to happen, I guess, I will wake up in the middle of the night and sort of mull this when I'm when I'm working on a book or or going for a long walk I mean that going for a walk is often a way a sort of deliberate way of sort of thinking about it without without it

you know without seeming too sort of effortful or focused and just letting ideas percolate and appear yes I think when in the process of writing a book for me anyway it's the the sort of hours of sitting at a desk typing are only a tiny bit of the whole process. There's so much more which is a sort of passive process of creation where you you just you think about things almost subconsciously sometimes and suddenly something will come to you a scene or a way of something happening or a character and that rarely happens when you're actually facing a blank page as it were.

Are you worried by what AI is going to do to your profession already has done actually? I'm, maybe I'm complacent, but I'm not, I'm not that worried. I mean, as I say, I don't really know what to know and what to think. And it's so, you know, it's so obvious why I would sort of want to put my head in the sand. So I always wonder whether that's, I'm just doing that. For me, there's such a, the importance of the, you know, any form of creativity is about humans communicating with each other. and I think that that you know maybe again

I mean I keep caveatting this because because obviously it is something that people that I you know think about and I don't really know the answer but I think that that communication between humans is something which is the whole point of it and that that communication is about it's about a sort of sharing something isn't it it's about sharing the experience of being human

of being alive of being a sort of physical being. I mean, in this way, we come back to what the book is about in a way, because it's about life as a physical experience. It's about humans, people being physical beings. And not just kind of brains in jars.

And that experience of life as a physical being with all its pains and sadnesses as well as all its kind of joys, I just don't, I ultimately can't see how a machine, the machine may be able to mimic that, but it's not entirely clear to me what the point of that mimicry would be.

I think what it boils down to is us as readers just knowing that you are being true to your craft as a writer. So I don't ever want to buy a book by a writer that has been AI generated in parts for exactly those reasons that you don't want, me to read stuff that you have created yourself. But the danger will be in the mimicry, and I hope you don't mind me doing this

and absolutely say if you do, I asked Chat GPP this morning to give me the first 50 words of a sequel to flesh. Do you want to know what it chundered out or not? I mean, I am extremely curious, so I'm going to say yes. Here we go.

Morning came late as if the city had overslept. He lay awake, measuring the faint, hum behind the walls, thinking of the body he had been and the one he carried now. Nothing had changed except everything had shifted slightly out of place, like furniture nudged in the dark quietly. Now that took 90 seconds to come back at me, David, and I was livid. I was absolutely livid because I don't want anybody, anything, to be pretending to write like you write. Yes, but that isn't how I write. I mean, that in the 50 words or whatever it is that

you've just read out, there were at least two quite sort of heavy-handed metaphors. And there are virtually no metaphors in my book. But it annoyed me that it, that it didn't come back and just say, no, I can't do that. It will never say that. I mean, I'm in a way, I'm, I'm, I'm reassured because, you know, that no one would think that. I wrote that, I hope. No. And there are quite a lot of authors, and I don't think that you would be included in this, you are being asked to

just sign contracts that say there is nothing AI generated in my work. And presumably that's a helpful thing to happen. I mean, I don't mind signing that if I'm asked to, of course, because there won't be. But I don't

think, I mean, I'm not sure that this can be held back by by contracts. No, I don't think it's going to work like that. I mean, I think, you know, if the mimicry becomes sufficiently good, then there will be certain kinds of book that are perhaps vulnerable. You know, I just, I think that the kind of book I write, which is, is at the, you know, I mean, on the one hand, it's at the kind of, it sells fewer copies than, you know, sort of mass market books. So I have, you know, I get less money than thriller writers or romance writers or fantasy writers.

But those kind of books are more vulnerable, perhaps, because, you know, the sort of novel I write, I think, is that the sort of humanity, the sense of humanity is right at the heart of it. Yeah. I think you're right. and also those kind of genre books as a reader, you are almost going to them to have replicated something every time. Because of the formulaic, and they do have, that's the whole point. The genre is, you know, the use of formula, and it can be the brilliant and innovative and, you know,

original use of formula, but it is almost by definition, the use of formula. So AI will naturally be better at that, I think, yeah. One of the glorious things about flesh, let's get back to flesh, is the fact that it does give readers, especially I think female readers, the opportunity to spend some time behind the male version of the world. And it is intriguing, intriguing in that light. Women are happy to read books by men.

We're happy to read books by women. Men are happy to read books by men, less happy to read books by women. I read books by women. Well, thank you, sir. Thank goodness for that. I have no sort of, you know. But what can help change that?

Because it's absolutely true, David, that you don't get to stand in somebody else's shoes in any other genre, apart from novels. And so we all need to go and stand in someone else's shoes. Yes, absolutely. Well, I mean, I think that obviously I was asked, you know, I did several interviews indeed last year about, which was specifically about the way that the reading public,

the novel reading public has is sort of overwhelmingly female and it's I think I think it's 70 30 at best maybe 80 20 something ridiculous um so I think just men reading more is of anything is is the first step um and because you know there's no reason of course why men should read novels less than women do I mean, it's just, there's no actual sense to that. So I, yeah, I think that looking at that and trying to create an environment and a situation in which more male readers are drawn to books at all, to novels, of fiction at all, is quite important. Yeah.

Yeah, what did you read as a younger man? Well, I read all sorts of stuff. I mean, I read, you know, obviously there was stuff on the school curriculum that I read. But then, and also it's like different phases of life. I mean, it's hard to say. There were times when I read mostly sort of American novels. There were times when I didn't read much contemporary fiction at all. It was kind of all over the place.

I've never been a very systematic reader. I'm not the kind of reader who reads a book by somebody and then wants to read and does read all the other books available from the same person. I'm not quite sure why, but that's just, I sort of, I'm quite random. These days I get sent a lot of books and I often find myself just reading some of the ones that I'm sent, almost at random. In researching this interview and yesterday a listener, it has been research. I read something about how some of your earlier reading had had a kind of sordid tone to it. And I didn't really understand what that meant. I mean, is that really kind of sordid, sordid, and I don't know.

What was that? What was that a reference to? I said that recently. But maybe it was, I think it was, I did a, I did an interview with a podcast which is all about Martin Amos and just asks writers to come in and talk about their favorite Martin Amos book. And I, as it happens, I have a favorite Martin Amos book. So when they asked me, I said yes because I didn't really have to think about it. My favorite is the information for what it's worth. And I think it was in that interview when I was being asked about, you know, what, if anything, I had sort of taken from reading Amos in particular, it was maybe in that interview that I, the kind of sordidness of life or not avoiding things that seemed sordid or, and that also, I guess, yeah, now I think it goes back to other writers who influenced Amos in turn like Updike and that generation of American writers where the sort of, the sort of dirty corners of life of life of life.

much part of what they bring into it and I think yeah the sense that a complete account of life has to has to include that and it has to include all sorts of unappealing things and I that is that is to this day very much part of my sense of what I'm doing with a novel in Flesh it's it's clearly there there's you know all kinds of unpleasant stuff but I think to sort of have a view of life even a view of life that ultimately is quite positive, you have to at least confront those unpleasant things. And that's what makes it such a great book,

because in part it's thoroughly depressing and in part it's very uplifting and all the way through it conveys a sense of reality that we need to know more about. It's a real joy talking to you, David. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. A quick one from Alan who says, does V have evidence to back up that statement

about men and women's reading preferences? Otherwise, on the face of it, it's just a sexist comment. Unfortunately, Alan, I do. It's just there. It's there in the numbers, Alan. I really wish it wasn't. David Solow's book, Flesh, is out now, hard recommend from us. Thank you very much.

As I said at the beginning of the interview, it was just a really interesting journey through the male gaze, which I just hadn't really found a book with that tone in it before, so I can see why it got people's attention and why it won the prize. Well, congratulations to him. And if you are a building and you were opened by the Princess Royal or by a celebrity, however minor, we would love to hear from you. We certainly would.

But we would also take prize-giving ceremonies. We would take anything where there is an appearance by a celebrity. It's quite likely at some point on the promotional literature, their name was written on the diagonal. And if you've got any of that literature, you can send us to. We'll happily take that. Jane and Feet at Times.com. Yeah, ribbon cutters of the world unite.

We want to hear from you. Thank you very much. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale.

And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free. Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.