Off Air... with Jane and Fi - It's been ages since I measured mine (with Anna Richardson)

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Jane and Fi chat about a certain person's miracle meat, the ongoing issue of Jane's trapped wind, and family holiday politics. They're also joined by TV presenter Anna Richardson, to talk about her podcast It Can't Just Be Me. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail].  Assistant Producers: Megan McElroyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to another week on Off-Air, which ended climactically, I thought, last week with Off-Air's first ever book club. Yeah, did you enjoy it? Well, I wasn't feeling very well. I know. So I didn't enjoy it, but I'm glad other people did. No, just got to be honest, I didn't enjoy the book and I didn't enjoy doing the book club, but that's just, I'm feeling a lot better now.

I had a bit of a virus. If you hadn't have had a bit of a virus, would you have enjoyed the book club? Oh yes, very much. And I think as well, I'm really chuffed that so many people were willing to take part. It was more, there was more involvement than I thought there would be.

And I was delighted by that, seriously. So let's, we've had so many brilliant suggestions from you two about what to do next as well, which is really gratifying. So we're going to compile all of those. We're not going to rush in to choose the next book. Because only fools rush in. Only fools do that. What a lovely song.

But I would absolutely agree with what you said. And do you know what? I really, really, really like the idea of us all reading a book at the same time vaguely together because i thought some of the comments that our lovely listeners made and the voice notes and stuff was were so spot on and i know that you didn't particularly enjoy the book but i really did enjoy the book and i enjoyed it more because then when people pointed out things that are kind of thought as I read through it and really noted it and explained eloquently why. It made me love the book even more. So I hope we can carry on doing that.

And because we always want to try and choose a book that may not be particularly obvious. So that is going to be what we want. Yes, but there's some brilliant, brilliant suggestions from you already. So please do keep them coming. Jane and Fee at times.radio. I have been laughing because a lot of the newspapers, I mean, it's an annual event, they do these articles, how to sleep in the heat. And they've written these articles, they've commissioned them. So they're publishing them anyway, in the UK. We don't need them. We don't need them. There's absolutely I'm sleeping

beautifully. Thanks. Because I think the overnight low last. We don't need them. I'm sleeping beautifully, thanks, because I think the overnight low last night was about eight Celsius, so I'm doing absolutely fine. But there's a massive double page spread in the mirror. Oh, steer clear of drink. Think about closing your curtains, but open the window. Never thought of that. What about getting a fan fee? But most important of all, don't forget to move your dog or cat if they like to cuddle up in bed. Keep your pets off the bed. You'd be surprised at the amount of heat they generate, says an expert called Rob.

Okay. Well, Rob, I don't want to live in your world because sometimes when Nancy is doing her, she has running nightmares so she'll be running in her sleep. Oh no, it's really it's it's actually really comforting because then she'll kind of wake herself up and she lifts up her head she sees that i'm there and she goes oh phewie and then goes straight back to sleep again

and she knows she's no longer required to race yes oh gosh that's but that's bloody sad isn't it so what are the other statutory summer articles that we're going to have that really don't fit the bill for the summer? We're going to have quite a few on getting the best spray tan. We have quite a few on packing for your summer holiday, which if it's in this country involves a lot of Gore-Tex, but that won't be in the article. What else will we have?

Well, food, dicky tummies, insect bites. I mean, no one's talking because it literally has been raining for weeks. Anyway, yeah, please no more articles about how to sleep at night. We're all absolutely fine, thanks. The other thing I saw in the Sunday Times that weekend absolutely cracked me up. The money section, which is, as an old fart, I've suddenly started to read. You know, i never bothered with it up until about three years ago now something you've come to regret you can say that again

now i'm constantly studying articles how much is enough for a pension all of that i can't keep away it's like absolute catnip to me um but there's a an interview with lynn franks um on the back page of the money section of the sunday times absolutely fabulous lynn franks yes and you know how some people are i'm a maverick me i'm so wacky i can't believe it and you don't really you don't really go for it you don't believe them i think lynn franks is the real deal i think she really is i'm going to say eccentric i think she's a genuine eccentric. In response to the question, what's your money weakness? She says, I believe in good quality organic food. In the 80s, I was obsessively macrobiotic. I took brown rice from India on holiday to India. My then husband

saw all these bags of rice in the suitcase and said, Lynn, you're insane. I think the important prefix in that whole paragraph is ex-husband. But do you know what, people do worse, don't they, on holiday? So I've told you our anecdote about being on the carousel in Mallorca one year year and there was a woman who was waiting for a kenwood mixer to come out and we've been you know we've been chatting i think we've been chatting on the coach back from uh from the the apron where the aircraft was uh so you know we carried on the conversation and and i basically just said why you know not unreasonable yes and she just said that she couldn't go on holiday without her Kenwood mixer.

And it wasn't that they had a glorious second home in Mallorca or something like that. They were just going on a bog standard, you know, Airbnb type holiday. But she could not go without her Kenwood mixer. I mean, that is a lug of an item. I mean, she could always ask a neighbour to pop in and check on it, surely. No, I don't think it's that she didn't want to leave it at home. It's just my little joke. But when the kids were tiny, nice snort,

I couldn't go anywhere without one of those liquidising thingy, you know, to just puree absolutely everything so you didn't have to cook a different meal for them. My kids just had jars. They were absolutely fine, honestly. No, but you didn't even need a jar because you just made whatever you were making and then you just pureed it.

Yeah, I didn't believe in all that. I just got Heinz jars. That's a waste of money. One of my kids is five foot three, so it's done them no harm. OK. Well, something in the tone of your voice suggests that I've hit a bit of a raw nerve there, listeners.

And I'll delve into it in private and get back to you if I can. We do have a good guest. I suppose we ought to, just for shock value, issue a warning, just in case anybody's going to be appalled by what is quite a frank conversation with Anna Richardson, because you don't really book Anna Richardson and then just expect to talk exclusively about levelling up and the cost of living crisis.

There is going to be... Actually, in this conversation, there's sex and death, isn't there? Let's be honest. Yeah, so if you don't know who Anna Richardson is, there's no reason why you should if you're one of our global listeners. So Anna has presented quite a lot of slightly out there pushing the boundaries tv programs certainly on the channel four over here one of them naked attraction which is where people decide who they want to go on a date with based on seeing their genitalia before their face so we have conversations about that kind of thing. We both enjoyed

meeting her very much. And I thought she had some very sensible things to say, not least we had a really good conversation about why there aren't more TV programmes about death. You know, there's a certainty around birth that you see reflected in the schedules and about sex, which you see reflected in the schedules, but not which you see reflected in the schedules but not really about death. No, and death is an absolute certainty. It is, it's one of the big ones, Jane. Can I congratulate Ruth who sent an email that just contains absolutely everything. Is this the one about the family holiday?

No, it isn't. No, I love this one too, so do read this. So just to quote some of it, my daughter was born with a rare genetic condition which is called learning and physical disabilities. She can't talk and doesn't yet walk unaided, though is making great strides with a new red walking frame. So I was overjoyed to hear you talking about the BBC sitcom

There She Goes, as there are huge parallels between our lives and the family it portrays. But until you said it, Jane, it hadn't struck me to feel guilty laughing at the scenarios they find themselves in. With every episode, I can guarantee laughing out loud, crying, sometimes a good full-bodied weep, other times a trickling tear, and nodding along or even exclaiming yes as Jessica Hines character articulates the feelings that I've struggled to put into words. I really do implore everyone to watch this wonderful program which has helped me to come to terms with the grief of the life I'd expected. It was interesting to hear this same sentiment from your listeners with transgender children recently. Finally I was

also on the weakest link 15 years ago, Fi. Look forward to seeing your episode. Don't wait up. I was eliminated after a mind blank on what material is vulcanised. Also, check out Brit Hannah Bass's needlepoint for brilliant modern tapestry kits, including maps of cities. And Threads makes me think of the GP telling me to check my coil is still in position. Keep on being brilliant, ladies. Thank you. Well, Ruth, that's a brilliant email. You've just got it absolutely all going on. All tidied up very nicely.

Thank you very much and lovely to hear from you. Thanks for including so much relevant information. This is an email about, I'm not sure I'm going to read it all out just because it's quite complicated, an email about, I'm not sure I'm going to read it all out just because it's quite complicated, but it is about the dynamics of a multi-generational family holiday. Would that be right? I'm not going to mention any names. And as I say, I won't give too much detail, but I just suspect there'll be plenty of people listening who can do a little bit of a hard relate to this. I'm just going to whisper it because I think she might just have slunk off in the middle of the night to send this email. I'm writing to you both having

just got back from a week-long trip with extended family, in brackets my in-laws, all staying in a holiday rental home on the coast. My husband has two siblings who both have children. His elder sibling has adult children, his younger very young and And our kids are in between 12 and 10. It's nice, but it does have its challenges. We've been doing this annually for the past five years with my mother-in-law and father-in-law kindly paying for us all. And each household taking turns cooking dinner each evening with the days relaxed and to spend how we please

with no pressure to do anything together, but equally welcome to spend time together if we wish however yeah ow sorry this year it all ended on a sour note as my husband and i were judged on our parenting parenting skills by my husband's elder sibling and his partner now basically this is where I'll probably stop giving the detail, but we can all probably understand how this happened. Our correspondence child didn't come to the dinner table at the appropriate time. You see, I'm already getting a bit clammy. And other people passed judgment on this. And then there was a bit of a ding dong about screen time. And then our correspondent overheard other people discussing her their parenting and it's it's just awkward it's awfully icky awkward isn't it this sort of

thing it's very icky awkward but i love your observation uh dear emailer uh what's the particular phrase she uses for basically an excuse to have a really, really good bitch about somebody else's family life under the guise of it's met with love. She also does say alcohol plays a part in their culture. She's talking about her in-laws. So inevitably, the evening descends into even louder drunken raucousness with swearing, whether the kids around the table or not. Here enters hypocrisy. If the kids don't want to hear swearing, they shouldn't be at the table. Oh, it doesn't matter if you're out loud with swearing,

whether the kids are round the table or not. Anyway, the whole thing is upsetting and ridiculous. Seeds our correspondent. I wonder if this sort of holiday family drama will ring a bell with other listeners. I would like to hear your thoughts. Well, I think it's bound to isn't it and it's just that um you know it's been captured by many classic films novels oh yes tv series and all the rest of it just that interface of uh one family's way of doing things and another family's way of doing things. But within families you can have different ways of doing things can't you in little smaller family units. But in that scenario are you

more likely to be the people who are tutting or the people who are tutted out? I'm a tutter and a tutty I think. I've definitely been both. I'm sure people have judged my parenting equally. I've certainly judged others. I mean, the thing is, I'm now in the position where I don't have teenagers. My sister still has. She just got a 13 year old, and he's just 13. And well, well, let's put it this way. We're strapped in for the teenage years here. And I'm just a spectator. But we do talk about it. I mean, he's a lovely lad, obviously, but it's it's it's tricky. There is no I do think things like screen time and insisting on manners that you believe are absolutely essential.

It's I just want to hear what other people think. I take a relaxed approach, certainly on holiday. If a child doesn't want to come to the table, then you simply offer them the alternative of a sandwich a plain sandwich at a later date don't you do you have to kick up a big fuss about whether or not they come well i don't know i suppose if it's you know if granny's taking her last ever holiday yes and she's paid for it then they probably should rock up yes and if it's the focal point of the holiday then i think you probably should I tell you what I tell you what is difficult though is um is working out which generation should be the one you know who's the kind of maypole and I think when you go on shared holidays sometimes that does boil down to who's paid for it oh yeah yes and in this case the grandparents had paid for it. Oh, yeah. Yes. And in this case, the grandparents had paid for it. But that's not always the right way

to work out who's the most important. No, that's a very good point. But sometimes the act of paying for it can be a somewhat passive-aggressive. Oh, enormously. Yeah. So tricky. Deep waters.

Very. So, yes, we'd love to hear your stories. Don't name names or use different names or you can remain anonymous. We don't want to ruin somebody's family holiday by detailing it quite closely here on the podcast. Dear Jane and Fi, as soon as I heard your discussion of rear admirals, I was instantly compelled to write in. I'm a civil servant.

I worked in the MOD in a team that did a lot of work with the Navy. A rear admiral is the third most senior level in the Navy, the stage below a vice admiral, which is then below an admiral. It's often abbreviated to RADM and VADM for vice and used as a substitute for a first name. So you would be RADM Garvey. Right. Radman Garvey. Yeah. So when I joined the Navy, says our correspondent, when I joined the MOD, I thought, wow, that's unusual. Three men called Radham and Vadham in our team. The head of the Navy is also called the First Sea Lord, which I found absolutely hysterical whilst nobody else batted an eyelid.

I have no further insights about where Rear comes from as when I asked a serving naval officer, he said it wasn't something I should be worrying about. I'm surprised he didn't add pet at the end of that. All this is to say I absolutely hated the MOD and I left within 11 months to go back to my previous role. Thank you very much for all of that detail. So we now know more, but we don't really know enough. No. Rear Vice. I think it's possible to be a Rear Vice Admiral. Oh, no, you've got me. No, no, no. It goes Rear, then Vice, then Admiral, and then First Sea Lord. Can you be a lady? Has there ever been a first sea lady?

No, but hasn't Joe Biden just appointed a woman to exactly that role in the States? And what's she called? I don't know. And I think she's still got to be approved by Congress. I think I've happened to hear this over the weekend. Anyway, listeners in the States may know more. They can hardly know less than I do.

But anyway, now this is really gratifying. This can oddly know less than I do. But anyway, now, this is really gratifying. This sort of email makes podcasting worthwhile. It's from somebody who wants to stay anonymous, but makes this claim. I am a direct descendant of the inventor of the penny farthing. I get the impression this person has waited and has taken their chance to just come up with something here because this is very much their territory. Do you know the name of the man who invented the penny farthing? Well only because our very kind correspondent has detailed it. His name was James Starley. He invented other things including the differential gear and a number of sewing machines. There is a statue of

him in Coventry. Sophie, the penny-farthing people, as you so disdainfully referenced, was, were, in fact, a man, and I am proudly related to him. Apparently, Queen Victoria asked him to make one for her, and she gave him an engraved watch for his troubles. This is allegedly in the family somewhere, but not in any branch that I'm in touch with. They probably fell out on a holiday. I'm not expecting you to read this on air, as I know you are both penny-farthinged out. But I thought you should know. No, listen, when you've got proper golden material like that, we're always going to read it out.

And congratulations to you for that important link, actually, to history. She feels connected to us both, apparently, as her dad is from St. Helens, very close to Liverpool, of course, and her mum is from rural Hampshire. All roads lead to Winchester Fee, she says. So thank you to that correspondent who wants to stay anonymous, but has that proud link to our, well, our transport history. That's great, actually. I think that's just fantastic. And I'm so genuinely sorry if when you were listening to the episode when I was dismissive

about the future of the Penny Farthing, and I think actually suggested that it probably would have failed in its first outing. You must have felt an absolute pang of family pride, and I'm very glad that you've got in touch. Shall I just do a very

quick list of books that have been suggested so far for the book club and this is really just in case these ring a ding-dong bell with people who want to ask for them too. I haven't heard of most of them. Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton. That one comes from Katie in Cambridge. Jackie Suggests Case Histories by Kate Atkinson. Have you read those featuring Jackson Brody? I think I have read that. I found the TV version again.

I know I've watched them, but so long ago I couldn't remember what happened. I've been watching them of an evening. They're absolutely brilliant. I think're available uh somewhere in the dark depths of channel four uh and this one um oh hang on i'm going to say that one for a sec yellow face by rf kuang now our young eve read that liked it no not from i don't think she did no uh how How to Disappear or Any Novel from Gillian McAllister. That one comes from Sarah. Yeah, a number of people have mentioned Gillian McAllister.

And Katerina, who's listening to us in Zurich in Switzerland, suggests My Sister the Serial Killer. Yes, now I would be quite keen on that one. By Iyinkum Braithwaite. Yeah. I think it's Braithwaite. I could be wrong. Okay. So, well, that's good to know.

And Red Notice by Bill Browder. And I did have an email, which I'm sorry I've now misplaced, recommending A Terrible Kindness, which I think it's by an author called Joe Browning Rowe. And forgive me if I got that wrong. I think that's a lovely and very moving and deeply sad book. It starts with Aberfan and I'm just not sure that, I don't know. I've read it and it's great, but I don't know.

We perhaps want something a little brisker in tone. Maybe. Maybe less melancholic than that book. It's lovely. Yeah, all good suggestions so far. Whiskey from Small Glasses by Denzel Merrick is one from Julie in Edinburgh. So we're going to put those all into the pile.

We'll see what comes up by the end of the week and then we will simply, do you know what, we might have to actually just dig one out of a hat. I think we should ask a man what he thinks. How is your celebrity tombola action? Very poor. Okay. I've never had any luck with raffles or tombolas.

Have you not? No. When I was really, really young, I won the jar of foil-covered chocolates, guessing the right number of chocolates in them, 113. Oh, no, I couldn't believe it, Jane. It was one that I just couldn't believe it. It was a kid's party.

I was in a new school, and I didn't really know anybody else who'd gone. And it just, it is a proper, proper magical memory. So did you share the chocolates out? Well, I couldn't eat very many of them because they just made me feel a bit ill. But yes, I did. But I didn't go home and scoff 113 of them. So I would just grab the jar and head for the exit.

But I think that shows you how little I've won things because that's the only thing that I can cast my memory back to. I'm just trying to think of the last thing I actually won by chance. And it was 10 quid on the very first National Lottery. Gosh, and did you feel that that was a sign? Never to do it again. Well, I was 10 quid up, wasn't I? Yeah. So you thought that you'd just leave it there yeah absolutely bad uh right jane and her windy lentils of doom

reminded me of a story says joe in salisbury from a very dear friend of mine a few years ago he was once found in absolute agony screaming in pain on the floor of her office by one of her colleagues 999 was judly called and she was dispatched at great speed to the nearest A&E in the back of an ambulance. Once there, having been wired up to various machines, scratching of doctors' heads and talk of possible appendicitis, it was to everybody's, and I mean an entire A&E department's amusement, that this near-death experience was resolved with one huge, absolutely deafening, pretty unforgettable fart. Turns out she's never had trap wind before.

Once it had finally stopped echoing around the corridors and the laughter had died down, she jumped off the bed, thanked everyone for their time and ran out of there as fast as possible. I'll be honest, I think of her and her farting every time I see an ambulance. It's like blue lights flashing past. Oh, dear. an ambulance with blue lights flashing past oh dear uh oh if you do happen to do me the huge honor of reading this out could you do it on the podcast i work at a secret government laboratory don't think we can we can't include that bit i don't think and i can't always listen to you live oh i suppose we can because there's no name or anything is there no no and because there'll be millions and millions of joes listening all across the country uh so uh thank you for that that's just fantastic yeah if you're about to put in a shift at a semi-secret government

laboratory you can tell you can tell us something because we're dead discreet you can just email us if you're just about to let rip an enormous piece of wind. Well, I've said before that perhaps that was my problem. My wind was very much trapped because I lack the ability to... You don't. I do. I'm not joking. It's not, you know, I'm not attempting to boast.

I just, I'm not. Anyway, I just wanted to mention this because it's from Fiona in Westport in County Mayo. And this is because I, I think quite clumsily phrased something in the Book Club podcast last week about how much more we know about America than we do about our nearest neighbours, the French. I think I said the French because our book was obviously a French book. And Fiona points out that, in fact, Ireland is, of course, our nearest neighbour. And to say our history with Ireland is complicated

would be the understatement of the year. So you think France is your nearest neighbour, she says. You even stopped to consider if Ireland was nearer, but then dismissed it. So you went for France, a country on a different landmass across the sea, when in fact there are houses in the UK where the front door is in the UK and the back door is in a completely different country, your nearest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland, where there are roads on which if you overtake a car,

you cross in and out of an international border. Considering the distress and sadness that border has caused over its 100-year existence, it is really sad that those in the country responsible for drawing that line through the middle of communities don't even remember that it exists. I'm sorry my first email to you isn't more positive because I do like your podcast. However, you do seem to welcome comments and observations

and take them with good grace and I hope you can bear mind. Fiona, that's absolutely fine and you make a very good point from County Mayo. So, sorry if I it was a clumsy thing to say. And we do appreciate all kinds of comments and we don't mind if you

criticise us. I mean, within reason. If you really, really, really don't like us, then don don't listen it might be hard to find anything that shocks Anna Richardson I've gone straight into the queue very very slick actually she's hosted loads of groundbreaking television programs super size versus super skinny got I remember watching that at the time and just thinking oh my what was that about so that was literally you know does what it says on the tin it was about people who were going in search of you know diets to make themselves size zero size zero was such a thing wasn't it thank god it was quite a brief thing

yep and she actually has done a lot of work about body size hasn't she secret eaters but her by far most infamous television program is naked attraction i didn't know that she'd done a lot of work on mental health as well, though. She's launched an online therapy service for people struggling to get treatment on the NHS. And her latest podcast is basically an agony art thing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's called It Can't Just Be Me. And it does what it says on the tin. She came in today and she looked absolutely beautiful.

And she was wearing a badge that read, it's just a vagina. So Jane asked her if she'd travelled here on public transport. Oh, I go everywhere. I go to church with it. My dad's a vicar, so I take enormous pride in going to church wearing it's just a vagina, dad. And your dad stands at the front in his regalia

and he's presumably he's put up with it for quite some time now. I'm afraid so. 52 years he's had to deal with me. But I think there's something about being frank, because you two girls are very frank as well, which is why, obviously, you know, I love you both. But you hit an age, and I think it's possibly late 40s, early 50s,

where you just don't care anymore. Jane never cared. Actually, I ceased to care probably around the age of about 43 or 4 if i'm honest but you're right there is a kind of cusp isn't there where on one day you do actually care a lot about what people think about you and then something happens to you or something happens in the world and you do just think oh you know what i'll be dead in 50 years to hell with it i know it's like when you wake up one day and your eyes have suddenly gone so do you know what, I'll be dead in 50 years, to hell with it. I know, it's like when you wake up one day and your eyes have suddenly gone. So, do you know what I mean? My eyes have suddenly gone.

None of us have seen a thing since 1973. No idea what we're looking at. But did you not find that? That suddenly you wake up and suddenly you're sort of long-sighted, you can't read anything. Oh, yes. So I've hit that as well. But having said all of that,

so much of your work is dealing with the frailties of life and people's lack of understanding about life, actually. And that seems to be a very, very long piece of thread. You know, it's not as if you hit that, you know, everyone hits an age where they suddenly replace insecurity with confidence. That doesn't happen. Maybe. I mean, one of the things i suppose that's really driven me from childhood and again because i was brought up in the church and so there was a lot of shame and you shouldn't talk about this kind of thing and i'm the only girl within the family as well so you know in the 70s i was told you shouldn't you shouldn't do that

which then just put more fire in my belly to sort of go, well, why not? Why can't I talk about this? So I suppose a lot of my work is about taboo and about having the confidence of saying, why can't we talk about that, particularly as women and girls? Why are you taking my voice away from me? you taking my voice away from me so I guess I'm incredibly passionate about tackling difficult subjects and trying to give people the confidence to say your voice deserves to be heard I think yeah naked attraction then oh well that is it's not even the elephant in the room with you is it it's the something else right in the camera uh what is that program for i'm not asking you to justify it exactly or am i listen go ahead i can justify all day long i mean i remember when i did series one being sort of wheeled out by

channel four to basically justify it to the press but i'd done a lot of hard work before we started filming in terms of making sure that editorially we were on the right track with the show and i've got no problem with justifying naked attraction as far as i'm concerned um you've yes you've got the gameplay yes you've got that sort of you know entertainment aspect to the show but actually look below the surface you've got the educational aspect you've got that little sort of information bit in in the middle of the little vts which are all about the average penis length is five centimeters whatever it happens to be but really what naked attraction is about is acceptance it's about diversity it's about inclusion it's about being seen it's about people saying this is what i look like and i deserve to be loved and for me it's

always been the antidote to love island so whereas i have never seen love island and i refuse to watch it really never seen it never why wouldn't you watch it i've made because to me love island demonstrates everything that is problematic with social media and youth and our world at the moment in terms of to me it seems to be about perfection and the machiavellian pursuit of what you want at all costs so it's about betrayal in my view so and it's the antidote naked attraction is the antidote to that whereas we're going this is what we look like w warts and all, quite literally, and I deserve to be loved.

I view Love Island as quite a cynical gameplay. Yeah, I struggle with it. Have any contestants ever turned up on the set of Naked Attraction and just not been able to go through with it? No, not as far as I'm aware. No, we are inundated with people every year people love it and obviously people are nervous about taking their clothes off but i mean it's testament i think to the team that i work with and with studio lambert and channel four

we're incredibly inclusive and everybody that goes off that show says they've had the best time. It's very welcoming, Naked Attraction. And in the end, I mean, you know, when I'm there filming, you've just got a whole studio of people sort of, with no clothes, just standing around chatting. And people genuinely will say, I feel like, you know, it's as if I've got my clothes on. You know, this is just normal for me.

Are they paid? Sorry to interrupt. No, absolutely not. No, no. Do they know that they're being laughed at sometimes at home because i think that is if i'm being honest one of the reactions that the program can sometimes elicit from you i think that a lot of the contestants that they come on for different reasons um and there's a whole variety of reasons for why people do naked attraction it might be that they're promoting something it might be that they want to come on for the laugh it might be that they genuinely this is a sort of last chance that they've tried everything else so why not take

my clothes off there's a whole load of different reasons i think that it's fair to say that sometimes they know that this is a game on show and because we have ridiculous gameplay so of course they're going to know that this is an entertainment show but ultimately everybody that comes in thanks us for the inclusivity and i genuinely mean that because even though people might be sort of looking going oh my god look at ah look at his hairy nipples or you know his enormous testicles whatever it happens to be, actually, these people are there going, well, so what? This is a human body,

and I actually deserve to go on a date. I deserve to be loved. You mentioned penis size, and we were talking about it, was it last week or the week before? Because there was an article in the Times magazine about the rise in the number of particularly young men who were incredibly anxious about the size of their penis,

all wanting it to be bigger. But also, the article made it very clear that this wasn't something that their female partners wanted necessarily it was something that men were quite obsessed with and that i mean there's a lot of vulnerability out there isn't it and it's certainly not confined to women well i mean that's not new is it come on girl i, girl. I mean, we know... But because of porn, I guess. Of course. Young men in particular are of the belief that they're not big enough. It's funny, actually, because I write an advice column for Women at Home as well. Literally last month, I've just written about a mother who's written in asking for advice

because she's terribly worried that her 17-year-old son is addicted to pornography and that, you know, she's very concerned about him. So I've just been looking into the stats around this. I mean, this is nothing new. We know that pornography has for, you know, quite some time now affected teenagers and their view of sex and relationships and women and penis size. So, you know, it's a real problem at the moment, the proliferation of pornography with young people and our lack of realistic sex education. So it doesn't surprise me at all that young men are concerned about their penis size and that they want bigger willies.

And in a sense, going back to Naked Attraction, that's why I champion that show and love it because we're saying it doesn't matter you know what your penis looks like it's normal it can be three centimeters or it can be nine inches it's all individual it's normal but you're right to say that there with metric and imperial well i know i mean draw yourself a diagram i'll have to yeah i like to span the centuries there. But you're right to say that women, we don't worry about penis size, you know, as women.

But men think we might. Men think we're concerned about it when actually our vaginas are, what, three inches long, I think? Gosh, it's been ages since I measured mine. I know. Get the set square up there. Good Lord. Where do you think we end up then?

Are we actually living in quite a healthy time where because we can talk about things more and men can explore possibilities to have their penis enlarged or they can watch programmes showing that they don't need to? Is that a healthy thing that we're doing or are we actually just at the very beginning of a neurosis that will completely and utterly take over a younger generation's life? All of that. So I think we're living in a schizophrenic time.

So, I mean, certainly we're living in very febrile times at the moment. So it's very divisive. You're in or you're out. You're with me or you're against me. So I think everything that you've just said there is true yes we live in an age where discussion and open conversation is crucially important particularly for younger generations but at the same time um yes the availability of social media and pornography and information is also going to make them more neurotic so i think i think you can hold the two at the same time. We need to be talking more openly about healthy sex and relationships. But whilst you've still got quite a divisive social media going on,

that's difficult. And pornography, that's difficult. Anna Richardson is our guest this afternoon and here on the podcast. Her podcast is called It Can't Just Be Me. So we asked her to tell us a little bit more about it. It's a straightforward advice podcast in truth. So we're just asking listeners to write in or call in with their everyday dilemmas. And I think that what I love about it is that it's it's connection and I think

that's something we're slightly lacking in an ever-connected world weirdly is that people are crying out for that kind of authentic one-on-one connection and advice I think we've got too much again of the social media thing of oh this is what I think about you know your issue and what we need is that just sort of one-to-one this is what I think you need to do and that's effectively what the show does it can't just be me um so we we every week we have a listener dilemma we have a celebrity interview and a psychotherapist and we try and unpack the dilemma that's come in so we've had um Kate Ferdinand talking about blended families, you know, something that's quite important to me. I haven't had my own children

and I'm investigating whether to adopt. So I'm very interested in the idea of having a blended family. We've had Rosie Jones, the comedian, talking about disability and sex. We've had Dr. Range talking about coming out in later life which has been fascinating because that's something that i did as well so there's a whole range of life issues basically just in your ears do you think there are any taboos still still left yes of course i mean um do you think we talk enough about death?

No. And that's something that, thank you for saying that, actually, because it's something that I've pitched as a producer for years within television and nobody will touch death. Okay. For, I guess, very good reason. You know, we're sort of terrified, aren't we, in this country about talking about it. But you're right. You still can't show it can you no and you know this would be a you know a long-form conversation possibly for another time and it would be great to have it but it does seem extraordinary you can show a live birth on television but you cannot show the end of life with somebody's consent i don't think it's allowed is it well i mean it's still madness that we can't show an erect penis.

So, I mean, as you say, you can show a live birth, but you can't show an erect penis. I genuinely didn't know that. What a learning curve we're on today. And you're right to say that you can't show the end of life. But there was that Terry Pratchett documentary, wasn't there, life and but there was that terry pratchett documentary wasn't there um going to dignitas where you did see somebody going through that and the end of of of his life at dignitas um that i do remember okay but we don't talk about death enough you're absolutely right to say that yeah and i'd be fascinated to hear how you get on with picture because i mean if anyone

could do that program um you know you've done everything else i don't mean that dismissively at all you you could do this in a human and approachable way and it should be done in a human and an approachable way i mean i i always tell journalists that again you know my childhood having been brought up in the church in a vicarage, we lived in the shadow of the church. And our garden, part of it was the graveyard, was the medieval graveyard. So me and my brothers used to dig up bones when we were children. And I'd be like, Dad, I've got another jawbone. And he'd be like, OK, I need to go now re-bury this sort of medieval soul.

So I'm particularly interested in it and how we celebrate life and in that death. I'm very, very interested in it. Okay, well, let's hope you do it at some point. In the meantime, you're making a documentary about the slimming drug. Yes. Now, again, this is something that we've definitely talked about in the last couple of weeks on Times Radio,

but what's the approach of this documentary going to be? It's called The Truth Behind the, in inverted commas, Slimming Jab. So we're talking about the semaglutide drugs that are out there at the moment, brand names like Wegovi, Azempic. You can take it in jab form, you can take it in pill form. But it is meant to be the answer to obesity, the obesity epidemic, certainly within the UK. But of course, we know that people are buying it off label to basically drop a dress size. So, you know, guilty as charged. I mean, I certainly was looking into it earlier in the year from a personal point

of view. And it's been really fascinating. we're in the middle of production at the moment looking at it and i'm very very torn about semaglutide and where it's taking us and in my view perhaps the over medicalization of obesity within our society versus knowledge education exercise, exercise, nutrition. And also just a genuine change in what we regard as acceptable and visually pleasing. Because can I say, Anna, you do not need to lose weight. You look absolutely... No, but you look amazing how you are.

The notion that you might investigate a weight loss... Because earlier this year when i was thinking about it because my blood sugars are high and i have diabetes on both sides of my family so actually semaglutide was originally used to treat diabetes so i was looking at it as a do i now need to get on top of my sugars and my menopausal weight gain because I'm careering towards diabetes okay so that's a medical reason yes but our notion of slim is just bizarre I mean you did loads and loads of programs yeah you know earlier on in your career about slimming down and we are still fascinated by it aren't we we are still trying to gain something that for many

people is just out of reach we're defined by it certainly as women we're defined by it aren't we we are still trying to gain something that for many people is just out of reach we're defined by it certainly as women we're defined by it and again i struggle very much with this because somebody said to me recently and i thought it was extraordinary a trainer said to me people women would rather hear uh you've lost weight than i love you and i thought that's absolutely there's some truth in that, isn't there? I think there might be some terrible truth. Isn't there? We're delighted when somebody says, you look well, have you lost weight? And we go, oh, yeah, and you sort of flush and you're excited

rather than being told how valuable you are or, you know, how interesting you are, how clever you are, how curious you might be. It's, you look great, you've lost weight it's true it is true yep i really want my lunch now um just a final question from me do you think that there is enough room and a genuine place in society for people who really just can't be bothered and aren't interested in an exciting fulfilling sex life well now that's very interesting that's the documentary i could make yeah that's the taboo subject isn't it that's very good point

so are you talking about yourself here no i'm not talking about me no i'm not i am talking um well maybe i'm talking about myself in certain different parts of my life. Yeah. And everybody's libido is different. Yes. But to non-personalise it, sometimes I think there is an enormous pressure placed on people to have an exciting, fulfilling, adventurous, whatever it is, sex life. Are we blaming Anna Richardson for thison for this well but i'm

gonna throw a spanner in the works not everybody likes fine dining anna yes you know i can sit on an amuse bouche i get that however i'm gonna throw a curveball at you which is i've been through all of that myself of you know in my life having shown no interest really in sex my libido's plummeted however I'm now of the firm belief that actually we should be having really good sex fulfilling sex I think it is essential to a healthy relationship so I've slightly come full circle on this and it absolutely can be done in your 50s and beyond. And I am in a fairly new relationship. So maybe there's that sort of flush of, you know, actually rediscovering sex and being excited about that. However, having worked with a

lot of psychotherapists and sex therapists, I do agree with what they say, which is you have to work at your sex life. It is essential for intimacy. And the danger is... But they're sex therapists. But psychotherapists and couples counsellors. The belief is, as I understand it, that in order to have a sort of healthy intimacy, that actually your sex life is very, very important.

It doesn't necessarily mean that you've got to be having penetration every every blooming night but there is something about you can lose intimacy too easily and actually with with a former boyfriend of mine i mean i talk about him all the time he's so sick of it so you know there's no i'm not breaking any confidence here but we had separate bedrooms for years and i think that and we were together for nearly 20 years so our relationship was superb we were very happy but where we were unhappy and in the end really affected our relationship was sex because we lost our intimacy and i believe that it is it is the glue it's the thing that binds you together. I think you have to work at it, girls. Yes, I just feel really bad about any social mori that is making someone who isn't experiencing that

feel worse about themselves. Absolutely. I would agree. I think it's an essential part of a relationship. But for people who aren't in a relationship and are choosing not to have sex i think they're probably being made to feel rather the color's been turned down on my life and i'm not sure that that's i agree with you i totally agree with you if if you are single and you're

single by choice um or even not by choice but you're actually fine with not having sex and you've got a perfectly happy fulfilled fulfilled, purpose-driven life, of course, you know, nobody should be saying, you should be having fulfilling, amazing sex. I think that if you're within a relationship, it's too easy to let that physical, intimate, connective side go. I've done it. And now in a relationship where that's been i've rediscovered

it post-menopausally it's a wonderful wonderful thing and i i do believe that it's something that we let go of too easily she does look good she does look amazing glowing um have you i know you've been to therapy you said you've been to therapy, you said you've been to therapy. Oh, yeah. Have you had couples therapy? I have in the past, yes. And I am a big believer in it, actually. I thought it was fascinating. And I love Esther Perel in all of Esther Perel's podcasts. So I'm slightly, and I obviously watched Couples Therapy, which was on, I think, Netflix.

I mean, you know, I love all of that. I think it was on BBC Two. Oh, was it? I'm so sorry to the BBC. Yes, I mean, superb. So I'm slightly obsessed with that kind of thing. But it's too easy, isn't it? I mean, I just remember in couples' camps,

I'm kind of going, well, they do this, and I'm obviously amazing. So I think it's very easy, isn't it, to sort of, you know, not hold the mirror up to yourself and try and blame it on the other person. But everything's a dynamic, and that's what you learn in therapy. And as you get older, everything's a dynamic.

And sometimes it definitely gives people permission to leave a relationship as well. But that's perfectly valid, isn't it? Is that, you know, some couples counselling is there to help you leave consciously uncouple or to leave, you know, in a good way. It's about leaving it in a healthy way yeah I think so I think all therapy is valuable but what I've learned about relationships having you know been in one or two is it is always about the dynamic between you and it's very easy to go well it's not my fault it's them when actually no it's the two of you it's the dance that you do together

which i find really interesting anna richardson and i think we covered quite a lot of ground in that interview we certainly crammed in some biggies didn't we yep some of the issues of life very much so um and um i liked her and she was um i mean i think the point uh i was trying to make was that you do get these i mean they are a bit ridiculous the interviews with older and i do mean by older i don't mean women of my age or men of my age i mean people well into their 80s celebrity people who still feel the need i mean are they always asked are you having loads of sex because they always seem to offer. And of course, they're not.

When you see the interview in printed form, it looks like they've suddenly announced. But of course, they've been asked a question to which they have responded. But it does seem odd to me that so many people, almost 90, are still at it like knives, according to their celebrity interviews. It just seems slightly odd to me. I'm not saying they're lying. Occ lying i occasionally that thought does cross my mind okay so i don't want you to name names uh here because it would take us too long to go back and check that they had said the things yeah well we're suggesting but um but the last couple of interviews that i've read with older women uh have haven't detailed their sex life at all, actually.

Well, there are a couple of... No, not all of them do, but there are some people who, you know, I'm having the best sex of my life, I'm 96, and you think, that's just because you can't remember the early stuff. I've forgotten most of it myself, I'm only 54. OK, we've only read this um i know we both need the

loo by the way both said as we came in this quick one we need to look but have you seen greg wallace's miracle meat no i don't want to jane what a question have you seen no i'm so very i mean it's i know this is probably not something you want to hear, but I think it's the best thing he's ever done. OK, so you've really got to explain that that's the title of a TV show, not just a round of questions. Oh, dear, no, don't. Well, tell you what, then, let's leave it for tomorrow,

because I do want to talk about it. OK, I'll go home and watch it tonight. Thank you. It's only 23 minutes long. OK, I'll watch it on the speed thing as well. It's on all four. I'll see Greg Wallace's Miracle Me It's only 23 minutes long. I'll watch it on the speed thing as well. I'll see Greg Wallace's Miracle Me speed pass me on a Monday night. Bob's your uncle. Happy days. Good night.

Bye. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house

or heading out in the car on the school run. Or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener.

I'm sorry.