Off Air... with Jane and Fi - It's not too late... actually it is!

Episode Date: July 15, 2024

Today Jane expresses her disappointment following the Euros whilst Fi is wonders how tennis players pick their balls. They also reflect on a world before montages and white top folly. Plus, they are joined by Nick Bryant, journalist and author, on his most recent book, 'The Forever War: America's Unending Conflict with Itself'. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail]. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Hannah Quinn Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And I haven't had too many problems. You have just been very, just end it right there. You have been very lucky. Well, not in all areas, actually. Mostly, been quite lucky. If we can be honest. Greetings. It's Monday.

It is. And Fia's been up since. Her alarm went off at four o'clock. Oh dear. I set three alarms, four o'clock, four ten, four twenty. Yeah. Because... But that's all on the phone? Yes.

You see, I mean, can you only trust one device? Well, I did have exactly that thought, but there wasn't... I'd have rung you. There wasn't, would you? You need to explain why. So I stood in for Asma on the breakfast show. It was a last minute call because she had somewhere else to be. So I agreed to do it.

You know when your mouth says yes and actually your brain is screaming? Your brain has gone, no. No! And out of your mouth comes, yes, I'd love to. What time do I need to be in? What time do I need to be in? I then immediately phoned you and said, what have I done?

You went, look, what I heard was my business. That's just such a fantastic management cop-out. When anyone says, the bits I've heard, and you just think, no, no, no. What was that show business? By the way, I heard the last hour, and you seem to be completely in control of all your faculties. I honestly think you could run the free world

should the opportunity arise. Okay, right. But the showbiz put down, who is it? Giles Brandreth told us that you go to a dressing room and you say, you made that part your own? Yes, you're absolutely right. Which is the showbiz way of saying i didn't enjoy it at all but i need to say something nice and now it's over and soon i can go home but that

absolutely wasn't the case the funniest thing jane was that on mondays either you or i jane and or fee as we're known around the building has to do a trail into the breakfast show. So today I had to ask you what was on our programme. It was quite funny because you knew much more about it than I did because I wasn't here on Thursday, which is the last day of our working week. So anyway, look, sometimes showbiz disappears up its own fundament. And there was an element to that this morning. But onwards, onwards, I had a good eight hours. Oh, I'm so envious didn't have a drop to drink watching the football you you stayed up to watch the football to be honest it was all over by 10 o'clock that's very true so i didn't really need to stay up that late

and do you know what i i'm more sad than i thought i would be really i don't know why i actually thought as i said yesterday, when I talked to you, I thought, oh, actually, I think they're going to fluke their way to victory. They won't deserve to win because Spain are clearly really, really good. But maybe just this time we're going to have that scrap of luck. It won't hit the bar. It won't just glance the post and bomb out. They'll actually score those little missed opportunities. And they nearly equalised, didn't they, just in the last couple of minutes? So it is a real shame. It is a real shame. And I hope people just honour the achievement of Gareth Southgate,

which actually they are considerable. I'm so glad you said that because it's just, it's quite a weird thing. And especially like me, if you don't follow football religiously and you haven't keyed into it at a very early age in your life. So I suppose there's a slightly more disconnected or dispassionate view. It just seems so mean to be castigating a man who has got us further than we have been for 58 years. And also I did watch just some of the montages who has got us further than we have been for 58 years.

And also I did watch just some of the montages and I love those montages that they play before. There was a time before montages, wasn't there? I can't remember it, Jane. What a miserable time that was, because very black and white world. There was a wonderful Wimbles montage as well at the end. There's always rousing music and it's really funny. And they did a couple on the BBC last night.

One of them, which was basically an extended rap version of Alan Shearer saying pressure is for tyres. I think I could live without Alan Shearer. I've got to be honest. Well, that one could have been a minute shorter and we would have got the joke. Yeah. Yes, he annoys me intensely. But good luck to him. But the other one that was about Gareth Southgate

and it just showed him in his many different varieties of hugs and bring it in boys and pats on the shoulder and laughing with all the squad. And you just think he's done something for the lives of especially those very young players that you can't put a price on. So if they'd just had lacklustre management or management that didn't come with genuine heart and affection,

they wouldn't be the men that they are today. So you don't have all of that really, really bad behaviour off the field. You don't have people who are clearly emotionally vulnerable being sent out to play, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So as a manager, he's been good, Jane. I don't want to join in the pounding of him. It's just really interesting. I wonder what will happen to him

because no Premier League club is likely to offer him a job, which is odd in itself. And there are, I don't think there are any really brilliant English managers who would grasp the opportunity to manage the England men's football team. And actually the women are managed by a Dutch woman. And you could argue that's a bit sad and why can't we find British talent to do that, English talent to do that. By the way, I hope everybody in Scotland enjoyed last night.

And let's be honest, they will have done. They will have absolutely loved it. And a large number of people in Wales and Northern Ireland as well, lest we forget. There wasn't universal mourning at the end of that game. Some people in Germany might have been a little thrilled. I dare say there was some laughter in Spain. But let's not encourage them. No, I'm giving up paella. I was never keen and that's it now. It's off. Anyway, arise Sir Gareth. I don't mind if he gets knighted at all. And I hope he goes on

to have a really, really successful career in menswear. Well, I noticed his top, the white one with the quarter zip, which is something that Rishi Sunak, our most recent former Prime Minister, he was very keen on the quarter inch. The quarter zip is a real modern thing, isn't it?

Quarter zip. What do I mean by quarter inch? I don't know, darling. I really don't know. I thought Rishi Sunak always wore that rather well. It's a different podcast. Yes, it really is. It's my haberdashery podcast, which is terribly popular

and doing really well in the haberdashery charts. No, Rishi Sunak did that well, that jumper, but Gareth does it as a light fitting top and it's available in M&S. It's 45 quid. 45 quid? Yeah, so I don't think that's unreasonable. I always think

white tops though, they're a fool's errand aren't they? Well, I think they very much are. You're wearing one today. I'm wearing one and it'll only take one splurge of ketchup it'll be mucky by the end of the day kids it will

it really will so sad times but never mind the Olympics are soon and we're good at that yes no we really are Team GB

there's so much talent in that particularly in athletics I think we're going to have some whoppers over the next couple of weeks oh I hope so lots to look forward to

so yep our journey of sport it continues but on the whole it was a miserable and news stuffed weekend and um I don't think the world is a happier or more stable place is it I absolutely agree it's obviously if you're listening to this in a time of the future and you can't quite place when the Euro Cup final was, it's also the weekend where Donald Trump has survived an assassination attempt. And I just couldn't believe it when I saw it. Actually, I saw it first being reported by other presenters on Instagram. And I very rarely look at Instagram first thing in the morning.

And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Instagram, full stop. very rarely look at Instagram first thing in the morning. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Instagram, full stop. But I find it a bit weird, actually, the way some presenters take it upon themselves to tell you the news on what I think is largely a forum to find quite decent bed linen. Yeah, gosh, I get a lot of bed linen. It's kind of like, gosh, what's going on here, actually?

I mean, it's an extraordinary, and let's not make light of it in assassination terms, it's dreadful. And, you know, obviously a spectator died trying to protect his family and the shooter was neutralised. One of the world's most horrible terms, that as well. But, yep, the world is a darker place. And then the inevitable calls for unity and calm.

I just find those just mind-boggling the hypocrisy actually of that i mean i think what you could do is say right we've all contributed to this you know own your part own your part in it and then it makes it easier for everybody else to own their part in it and genuinely turn over a new leaf but you know the kind of sanctimonious I'm standing on a platform with unity now I just it's just to my mind I think it would just make people angrier I think you have to kind of say sorry and mean it and then move forward and I'm not saying Donald Trump needs to apologize for someone trying to kill him at all but I think you just have to realise how we've got there

and then you have everyone that's played a part in that. Yeah. But Let's Unite, says hugely divisive figure, is... You're right, yeah. It's a tricky one. It is. Anyway, we do have a guest in the podcast and today it is Nick Bryant.

Now, because of the complications surrounding our shifts, without blurting, destroying the show business magic. You've read this book and I haven't. But I'm going to do the interview. And that's because I step up to the plate. You absolutely will, sister. And you'll do it brilliantly. But also, Nick Bryant writes so brilliantly about America.

So he was the BBC New York correspondent for a long time. But also, he's just loved America. So he studied American politics at university. He wrote a thesis, his dissertation on the inadequacies of JFK. Isn't that interesting? The inadequacies? Yes. Okay, I'd quite like to read that. And I can't say that about every dissertation. So he's got a very critical, good critical, kind of outsider's observing eye on American politics. So the book is brilliant because it goes all the way back

to where America kind of failed its democracy when it created the Constitution. So it's fascinating. And you'll do a brilliant interview, and I will enjoy listening to it. Well, it'll certainly be a challenge. But I mean, in a good way. And actually, there couldn't be a better time to hear from him. Let listening to it. Well, it'll certainly be a challenge. But I mean in a good way. And actually, there couldn't be a better time to hear from him.

Let's face it. So shall we move on to happier matters? Shall we do luxury? Go on. Brought to our attention by Marie, who says, Good afternoon, Jane and Fee. Whilst having a breather from ironing, I'm skimming through the transcript from yesterday's show.

And my eyes are lighted... There's a transcript? It's worrying, isn't it? This is actually put down in words somewhere. And my eyes are lighted on the word luxury. It was being used in the context of luxury holidays, whatever that means. But do you think that the L word is a bit overused?

I ask this because there are many things which seem to have the word luxury attached, and I'm not convinced they are. For example, why are new or newly refurbed flats always described as luxury, especially ones that started life as a Victorian jam, vinegar or biscuit factory? Actually, can I say that's such a good point.

And it's like I couldn't make my home in a refurbed asylum. And people do. They do. You can hire the chapel, a former so-called lunatic asylum, to get married in. Why? I don't know. Anyway, that's just a topic for another day.

Press on. It's a very good observation. And you're absolutely right. And prisons as well. I mean, I don't want to go and live in a prison. There's that hotel in Oxford. I don't want to go. No, I know.

Terrible things will have happened there. Laurie goes on to say, I think caviar was always described as luxury, but now it extends to things like luxury fish pies and the weirdest one luxury toilet paper Marie says I bought some luxury toilet paper the other day and I'll be honest it was anything but

my fingers went right through it when clearing up the remains of a dead rodent that the cat had brought in not very luxurious Marie it's a brilliant email thank you i think jane and i are fully on board and that's something to add to the long list of things that we need to solve just get rid of the word luxury or just examine it properly before attaching it it has now become hopelessly overused and we need to draw back um liz is a

retired teacher as a, I know how we all feel when our children are asked by their teachers to write about what they did at the weekend, especially when we've taken them to a museum and they write, we went to London and had lunch in McDonald's. But my favourite story, not personally experienced, so might be apocryphal, is of the primary school child who wrote i couldn't sleep and when i went downstairs mommy and daddy were sunbathing by the fire liz is a retired teacher um thank you for that and um yes i don't care whether that's apocryphal or not we'll take apocryphal absolutely lovely we're absolutely not bothered now kind regards uh come from angela clark javois and it's angela with two l's and i like that

i love your show i've listened for years your podcast at the old gaff through covid kept me sane well they kept us sane too angela so it was a pleasure really i'm writing regarding the subject of email sign-offs the discussion reminded me of one of the best and most amusing posts i've ever seen i found it on that awful site LinkedIn, but the discussion originated on Twitter. Specifically, it was on what you say instead of best in your email sign-off. Oh, yeah. This is great.

Her favourite contributions include, you'll never take me alive, Nate. Just imagine. This is at the end of, maybe it's quite a formal email, where you're saying hello to someone you haven't seen for quite a long time. You're arranging to meet them. Some other things are discussed and then you're just going to end the email.

So, you'll never take me alive, Nate. With bubbles. May you have the day you deserve. And as Angela correctly points out, a little bit passive aggressive, that one. 4,305 days till I retire tag you're it i love that that that's works yeah never give up never surrender be safe you'll never see me back be safe you said that always sounds somewhat threatening as well but it immediately makes you think am i saying what's gonna happen? Juggling chainsaws on fire.

Don't forget to be awesome. And this contribution from someone called Eleanor. Usually, onwards and upwards, Eleanor. Sometimes, see you in hell, Eleanor. Love your work. Angela's based in Brisbane, but I used to listen to you when our family lived in the Middle East. Globetotter.

There's nothing wrong with that. Rachel is in Somerset. On the subject of people who describe themselves as having a sense of humour, a good sense of humour, I'd like to make two observations. They usually mean they're funny and often they aren't. Number two, if they're men, they sometimes mean they enjoy banter

and are definitely best avoided. Do you think that's fair? I don't know. Usually mean they're funny. They think they're funny and they often are. Yes. But, you know, I would say this is difficult. No one would ever say I actually, I simply, I don't have a sense sense of humour I just don't have one Well I have heard people say that Oh really? Yeah, and there's a and I don't want to misattribute this

but there's a very famous female politician who quite often has said I just don't have a sense of humour and I can see it in myself and well I mean I want to say who I think it is but I don't want to get it wrong Right You can tell by the whisper I know you've been up a long time Well, I mean, I want to say who I think it is, but I don't want to get it wrong. Right.

You can tell by the whisper. I know you've been off a long time. Write it down. Yeah. And I think she says it in a very self-deprecating way. Does that ring a ding-dong bell? A ding-dong bell. Because it could also be this one.

Sorry about this, Kate. I was going to say, we've had quite a few prime ministers who've been somewhat lacking in emotional intelligence. But I think it also could have been her. No, I'm not so sure about her. Do you think she would actually laugh a minute? I've met her a few times. OK. And she certainly could do a bit of chuckling.

But I think quite self-aware people sometimes can see that they just don't laugh along or crack jokes like other people might. I'm thinking of a joke I could crack, but I can't think of anything. Oh, I'm so sorry. It's terribly crack, but I can't think of anything. Oh, I'm so sorry. It's because I'd like a sense of humour. This one comes from Alison, who's in Berkhamstead. And I say that because she has a PS. Correct pronunciation is emphasis on the berk.

Well, when you call somebody a berk, it's very rude, isn't it? So you shouldn't do it. I didn't realise it was very rude. It is very rude. What does it mean? Cockney rhyming slang. Oh, I'm so slow. Sorry, I can't get that.

Twerk? No. Firk? No. Anyway, I'll tell you off air. Off air! Oh, this is what you should be telling me now. Anyway, Alison is in Berkhamstead. And that's good, actually, because I always used to call it Ber Anyway, Alison is in Berkhamstead.

And that's good, actually, because I always used to call it Berkhamstead. Berkhamstead. Oh, I thought it was Berkhamstead. No, emphasis on the Berk. If I may drag Jane's attention away from the Blessed Footy at the moment, what is it with tennis players and ball selection? Now, Alison, we were saying only this whilst watching the final between Djokovic and Algarath.

Yeah, thank God, by the way, the right man won there. Oh, don't. Do you know, we've had a couple of emails from people who are very, very upset. More with me for not loving Djokovic. Routinely asking for more balls than they need, players give them a cursory glance before rejecting most before serving.

Dare I say it seems to be the male players who do this. Given that they have brand new balls delivered at regular intervals throughout the match, what criteria are they applying in making their choice? It's not as if they're being presented with a motley selection of half-balled specimens of the kind my dog Molly favours. Hoping someone amongst your vast audience

will know the answer. Well, I hope so too, because we were saying exactly that. Why don't you just... They're all new. Why would you look at it? What would you be able to tell by looking at it? I have absolutely no idea. But I think tennis players, I think tennis is one of the tougher sports because usually you're a singles player. So you, by definition, you spend a lot of time on your own. You're there, you're absolutely exposed and you travel the world, don't you? And the only people you can really become friends with are your own. You're there. You're absolutely exposed. And you travel the world, don't you?

And the only people you can really become friends with are your competitors in that highly competitive sport and environment. And it just must be really, really strange. And you, unless you're one of the super brilliant, you lose more often than you win. And it just must be so lonely and so utterly punishing. Little wonder that they developed so many tics. I mean, Rafael Nadal, he used to pick at his buttocks, didn't he? Do you remember? Before he served, he'd adjust his shorts. And it became something that was actually quite difficult to watch. And I'm not criticising him because, as I say,

it must be a really peculiar and difficult lifestyle. Yeah, and also you do have to, in this country, as Judy Murray has said quite a few times, you tend to have to send your kids away, don't you? Yeah, I mean, it's horrible. To summer camps or, you know, if you're going to play, even on the junior tour, you are abroad and often in Florida and that kind of stuff.

So no, I agree, I agree. It must be a very it's a very hard discipline so their relationship with their balls i don't i can't really i won't pretend to have a view on it i did watch some of the wheelchair tennis yesterday and what i didn't know until i was spending time watching it yesterday was that they would they store balls in in their wheel on their wheelchair well that, that's very sensible. Yeah, which really makes sense. So you can just keep them in there. And by the way, what an astonishing skill set that is

to be able to play tennis in a wheelchair. I mean, that sounds probably deeply patronising. Absolutely not intended to be because the strength, the upper arm strength required for that off the scale. And to move around the court at the speed of speed they do yeah it's just crazy isn't it and to be able to then uh transport a ball over a tennis net just absolutely remarkable did you watch any of the men's final uh yeah no i did i i because i knew i didn't think it was going to go on too long what i can't do is invest in a five-hour barnstorming, not duet, duel between two, you know, really quick,

big-hitting, big servers, because I just find that really boring. I'll let them know. You don't want to do tell them. I think you'll finish it. I'm bored by you. Stop it. A little bit quicker. I actually do think that if...

I'd probably watch more tennis if they... more men's tennis if they restricted it to three sets. I don't really know why they insist on doing five sets because i've just checked out everybody by the way if i was two if i was a male professional tennis player it's a big leap and i was two sets down i'll just say hold your jacket in it's all right i've had enough i can't see myself fighting back let's go for tea i just i think again that's an astonishing psychological um set of circumstances that you can think i'm going to i'm going to win this i'm going to win the next three sets how do they do that i know and when they turn it around from a championship

point oh you know the third set and they've got to play another two in order to win it that's what i mean don't bother it's mind-boggling maybe that maybe there is an illustration there of why i've not become a professional tennis player. No, but sometimes I wonder as well about what it does to your mentality because actually all of that stuff, that sheer grit and determination to win, win, win, win, win, win, win.

When you stop playing tennis and you have to find something else to do, I think that's the person you avoid in the office. It's the person it's maybe not great to have a relationship with you know they're quite we hold up as being virtuous the sporting example of how to mentally live your life and i don't know whether it does transpose very well well so wouldn't you be more comfortable with exactly the person you're describing the person who goes don't worry it's gonna do something else not really working out i don't want to hit

this ball across this net anymore i want to go and have a sandwich um obviously some highly successful sporting heroines and heroes go on to become pundits but the vast majority don't they just fade away and the person that was incredibly important for a limited and dazzling amount of time, I mean, they used to, or classically, ex-footballers would run pubs. That was the thing they did, and that often didn't end well. Well, there's a very high rate of addiction, isn't there?

Yeah, I think it's really tough. In ex-sports people, yeah. Really, really tough. So let's not do it, Jane. Let's not do it. We're in careers advice corner. Get into podcasting. It's great.

Do something just a little bit more lame. Please keep me anonymous. Happy to do that. Sarah Beeney's dating website was where I met my now husband 15 years ago before the age of swipe rights. We got our friends to write our profiles and my friend captured all my attributes in much kinder and more positive ways than I ever could.

I lived and worked in West London at the time and he lived and worked in East London, so our paths would never have crossed socially. It was a great concept, really made the person come to life rather than just being a shop, which I feel some of the new age of apps are. Brilliant.

And it's called My Single Friend. Is that still going? I don't think it's still going. Which is an enormous shame. I just think it seems much kinder, as you say, anonymous. Jane and Fee says, Diana, I was really pleased to hear, this is back to tennis, to hear Christine Truman on your podcast after so many years following her triumphs.

I went to a second or third tier girls' public school, says Diana. Well, you don't name this alleged second or third tier public school. I'm sure it was a fine institution, Diana. We played Fee's old school, St Swithin's at La Crosse. Very poor team tees. Yeah, there would have been. Well, because I don't think we weren't top tier,

third tier public schools. Independent, independent gal school. Yeah, you couldn't lay out a decent tea. I don't think they did. I mean, I took very, very little, I played very little part in the sporting side of the school life, so. Well, it's not too late.

Actually, it is. When I was there in the 60s, says Diana, the school was really proud that Christine's sister, Nell, was an old girl, and that seemed to me to be scraping the barrel. Yeah, that is a little distant, isn't it? The only other famous old girl was Joan Hunter Dunn, who lent her name to John Betjeman for his charming poem,

which is written about the name, not the young woman. Although I know that poem exists, I don't know what it's like. Do you know what Joan Hunter Dunn is? No. I'm not over-familiar with the works. Can you not tap back into your English degree? I don't think we ever studied John Betjeman. Oh.

No, I don't think... I think he'd slightly fallen out of favour. I don't know. I could tell you quite a bit about John Updike, but I don't suppose there are many takers there. Gosh, we don't think he'd slightly fallen out of favour. I don't know. I could tell you quite a bit about John Updike, but I don't suppose there are many takers there. Gosh, we don't have time. What a shame. Re-signing off.

I find using cheers works well on occasion, but it's a bit out of vogue, says Diana. Cheers. I say cheers. I say it. Cheers. He's famous, Judith Chalmers impersonation. And now Nick Bryant is our guest this afternoon.

He now lives in Australia after years living and working in the States as one of the BBC's most senior foreign correspondents. Now, he covered the Clinton presidency, Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden, and he really does love the United States. But now he really fears for it. His new book, The Forever War, is about the country's extreme polarisation. And honestly, it could hardly be more timely. I asked Nick about how dangerous this time is for America. Well, it would have been a lot more dangerous had Trump been assassinated. That's for sure. I mean, that could have been the spark for something very terrible,

the possibility of a second civil war, even. I mean, America right now is in a state of cold civil war, a nonviolent civil war. But that could have really sort of got things over the edge and into a very dangerous place. I mean, now, obviously, there are calls for national unity, there are calls for the political rhetoric to be dialed down. But, you know, the point I make in the book, Jane, is division is America's default setting. It has always been divided. The political rhetoric throughout some of it, so much of its history has been so overheated. But one thing that history does teach us is that in these moments, America has so much muscle memory when it comes to to dealing with its divisions that often it doesn't end up in sort of outright conflict. It's learned over the years how to kind of be divided, but to still function as a nation. There is a great quote in your book,

The Forever War, from the Irish writer, Fintan O'Toole, who said, the real problem for the US is not that it can be torn apart by political violence, but that it has learned to live with it. And that's exactly what you've said, that actually for all the talk that this is an appalling incident and we mustn't tolerate it in America, it isn't actually that unusual for the United States of America. Look, division has always been the default. Victory over the British in the War of Independence

brought about independence, but it didn't bring about instant nationhood indeed for for many years there was this fear that there would not be a United States of America that the colonies could not come together and form a nation indeed it took about 50 years for America really to have a sense of national consciousness Virginians saw themselves as Virginians rather than Americans people from Massachusetts saw themselves as Virginians rather than Americans. People from Massachusetts saw themselves as people from Massachusetts rather than Americans. It took a long time for America to really have a sense of nationhood. And about the time it did, it started fracturing again.

And that led to the awful Civil War. And the only way that they could come together after the Civil War was to make segregation in the South the price of national unity. So denying African-Americans the rights that they suddenly got after the end of slavery was the price of national unity. So denying African Americans the rights that they suddenly got after the end of slavery was the price of national unity. And in the same way that division has always been the default, Jane, political violence has been such a common and continual thread of the American story. Most people don't know, for instance, the first speaker of the House of Representatives survived an assassination attempt. Andrew Jackson, who's Trump's great presidential soulmate, a populist very much in his mould in the 1830s, he survived an assassination

attempt. We've had Lincoln who was killed. Garfield was killed. McKinley was killed. John F. Kennedy, of course, was killed. Many other presidential candidates have survived assassination attempts and presidents like Truman, FDR. So this isn't uncommon. And my reaction on Saturday night when I first saw those extraordinary images from Pennsylvania was much the same as the reaction I had on January the 6th. This is absolutely shocking, but it isn't surprising. Just as the conspiracy theories swirl, and they started swirling within a couple of minutes of the events of Saturday, just tell us in a completely sane, cogent way,

what happened in Butler, Pennsylvania on Saturday? Well, I don't think there was a conspiracy. We will find out the motivations of the 20-year-old gunman. We will find out why it took law enforcement until the moment he actually opened fire to actually do anything about it, despite the fact that so many people were telling law enforcement there was a gunman lying on the roof. But again, if you know the recent history of the Secret Service and the recurrence of near misses over the years, and you understand the sort of institutional dysfunction of the Secret Service and how in some ways they come across various episodes in recent times, it's like the Keystone Cops.

Again, it's shocking, but it isn't surprising. What I obviously don't think happened on Saturday night was Joe Biden ordering the assassination, as some have suggested. I don't think this was a concerted attempt with Democratic backing, as some have suggested, to take Donald Trump out of the case. And I don't think that it was a kind of false flag operation mounted by the Republicans, as some Democrats, leading people, have suggested, that gave Trump this extraordinary moment that has clearly so boosted his candidacy. Well, that's what I wanted to ask. It leaves Trump considerably stronger, no doubt about that? Yeah, it really does, for a number of reasons. I

mean, first of all, to his supporters, I mean, he looks like a messiah, doesn't he? I mean, Trump really sort of stoked up the religiosity of this moment very shortly afterwards, as he said, sort of God had saved him. I mean, there are many of Trump's supporters who really regard that golden escalator that he came down in 2015 to launch his candidacy on as a kind of heavenly portal and they will regard what happened on saturday as a kind of celestial event in some ways that god intervened to stop him being killed given you know he was just millimeters away from obviously being assassinated so it really revs up his base that picture of him fist pumping the air shouting fight fight, fight, fight with

an American flag over his head becomes instantly iconographic. It becomes the defining image of the 2024 campaign, whereas the defining soundbites, obviously, are Joe Biden's stumbling answers during the debate. I mean, it presents Donald Trump as this strong, former president, this American strongman. And the history of American elections shows that that is what American voters tend to like. And they tend to punish those who are seen as frail and weak. And that is what Joe Biden is being presented at at the moment. And just one final point, it makes it very hard for Joe Biden and the Democrats to prosecute this case that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy when he himself has been the victim of an attack on democracy. Fight, fight, fight, though. Fight who? Fight what?

Yeah, I mean, this is part of the sort of incendiary rhetoric that has kind of become the norm, especially on the right of American politics. kind of become the norm, especially on the right of American politics. You know, part of Donald Trump's appeal when he first appeared on the scene in 2015 and 2016 was his evocation of violence. So it's no surprise that he turned in that moment to the kind of violent rhetoric, which the Republicans are now saying is part of the reason that he was attacked on Saturday. There's no doubt in your mind, and actually in the minds of many others that Donald Trump is now in a much more favourable position in terms of his electoral chances. But I've also heard and read that Joe Biden is now less likely

to be replaced as the Democrat candidate. Do you believe that? Yeah, I mean, that arguably helps Trump as well, though, doesn't it? I mean, what was dominating the news cycle over and over in the run up to this? It was obviously the discussion within the Democratic Party about whether Joe Biden should even fight the election in November. That now is on pause. It becomes a lot harder, I think, to make the case to Joe Biden that he needs to step down in a moment where he was saying, well, I have the skills to bring the nation together. that he needs to step down in a moment where he was saying, well, I have the skills to bring the nation together. That hasn't obviously been the case over the last three years. His national

reunification project that he launched on his inauguration day has clearly failed. But he will make the case we can't obviously change horses in the midst of this kind of crisis. I think it becomes a lot harder to elevate somebody within the Democratic Party who would have the kind of stature now to take on Donald Trump. So that, too, is another way that this has benefited Donald Trump. I think if Joe Biden had stepped aside and another candidate had emerged pre-Pennsylvania, then the Democrats would be in a lot stronger position. You know, Trump is looking good at the moment. Indeed, there are a senior House Democrat has told Axios, an online magazine in America today, that there are senior Democrats who are now resigned to the fact that Donald Trump will win. Now, you know, I'm a correspondent. I'm not a clairvoyant. Who

knows what's going to happen between here and November. But if the election were held tomorrow, I think we would see a significantly boosted vote for Donald Trump. And what do you think, what tone do you think Donald Trump will use in his speech in Milwaukee on Thursday? Well, if he is smart, he will dial down the rhetoric. What Donald Trump now needs to do is to appear presidential again, rather than to appear like an insurgent. You know, Donald Trump was pretty smart after that disastrous debate performance by Joe Biden a couple of weeks ago. He really didn't sort of

intervene while the Democrats were tearing themselves apart. It showed a kind of smartness. On the night itself, I think as well, he sort of dialed himself back because he realised that Biden was losing the debate. He didn't have to win it. And if he's smart, I suspect he will do the same thing. He will sort of say, you know, we've got to come together. He will make that call for national unity, even though he is obviously such a polarising and deliberately divisive figure. But if he's smart, he'll just do that. And he'll adopt a very different sort of approach to try and to win the presidency than he had pre-Pennsylvania. And without being too parochial,

can we just talk briefly about Britain's relationship with America and our dependence upon this incredibly complicated, violent country? We have American military bases on our soil. We are really closely linked to them in terms of military intelligence and much more besides. Is that a position that we should be a little worried about? Well, I've always been sceptical about the special relationship because it really isn't a special relationship to the Americans. And it is such a servile relationship now towards the Brits. I mean, I had an example of this myself. I mean, in 2020, I asked Joe Biden for an interview with the BBC when I was working as a correspondent for the BBC. And he said, the BBC? No way, I'm Irish. And that kind of made the special relationship antenna that are on

top of the Foreign Office in London get yanked off their moorings and land somewhere in the Urals. I think they were so terrified by the possibility that you had an Irish American coming in who wouldn't be as favourable towards the special relationship. Yeah, it is so problematic that Britain and other countries like Australia have really allied themselves so, so very closely with America when under Trump, America is not such a reliable ally. And yeah, that is really problematic, especially at a time when obviously you don't have an ideological alignment or you wouldn't have an ideological alignment between a Labour Prime Minister Keir Starmer and a Republican president like Donald Trump. But we know that the Foreign Secretary David Lammy

has been desperately trying to build a relationship because the actual brutal truth is he's got no choice. We've got no choice. Yeah, precisely. And one of the most get any upside from that. Trump repeatedly humiliated her. I mean, he literally said at one point that Boris Johnson would make a great successor. He was kind of endorsing the very person who sort of ended up taking a job. You know, the Australian former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull had the right idea. In his first call with Donald Trump, he really stood up to him. He'd worked with sort of some of the big tycoons in Australia, like Kerry Packer. He'd worked with bullying people

who generally got their way. And he knew the best way to deal with them was to not let the bully beat you. So he stood up to him in a famous phone call that the transcript was released of in a disagreement that Australia had with America at the time. And that's the way to approach it.

But I fear, you know, like you say, British prime ministers have no other choice but to cosy up to American presidents, whoever they happen to be. That was Jane's fantastic interview with Nick Bryant. I really, really enjoyed listening to it at home, which I did whilst lying down on top of the duvet, just having a gentle afternoon

richly deserved thank you very much for listening we're back tomorrow usual place like wherever you listen just keep listening I am having something done to my wisdom tooth tomorrow at 9.30 so I might be a little bit dribbly and I apologise in advance

will there be some dry drool coming out of your mouth I think so I've been very lucky and I apologise in advance. Will there be some dry drool coming out of your mouth? I think so. I mean, I've never, I've been very lucky and I haven't had too many problems. You have just been very, just end it right there. You have been very lucky. Well, not in all areas, actually. Mostly, being quite lucky.

If we can be honest. But I haven't had to have that much done to my teeth. Right. It's done to my teeth. Right. It's going to start now. And I've never tried to do a programme after having some serious anaesthetising things. So it might be terrible.

I apologise in advance. Have you had a root canal? No. No, okay. Well, I think the wisdom, it should be all right. Okay, yeah. You're probably coming all silly. Are you losing it? No, I'm having it filled. should be all right. Okay. Yeah. Well. You're probably coming all silly. Are you losing it?

No, I'm having it filled. I'm having it drilled and filled. Oh, so you'll still be wise. I don't think so. Anyway, let's see whether we can spot the difference. People who really listen may be able to tell that something has gone on when you tune in tomorrow. Now, take care.

Be safe. Cheers. tune in tomorrow now take care be safe cheers congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fi. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.