Off Air... with Jane and Fi - It's what Shakespeare would have wanted...

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

Jane and Fi are joined by Paulette Hamilton, the first black woman to become an MP in Birmingham. Also - how did Fi's kittens get their names? Will Jane enjoy a modern take on Shakespeare's Othello? And what are 'Wendy bits'!? If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Times Radio Producer: Kate Lee Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. So it's Wednesday, it's halfway through.

Oh, it's half past three, isn't it? We don't really have a week, do we? We've gone over the humpback bridge in our week, haven't we? And we had a packed show today, Jane, didn't we? Well, it was packed. Packed with some good stuff, some interesting guests. And I particularly enjoyed the academic Miriam from Exeter University talking about witchcraft. Marion.

I particularly enjoyed Marion, the academic from Exeter University. Sorry, it's now five past five. It's all gone from my system. I should have got that right because Marion was absolutely brilliant. And, you know, sometimes academics can be because they're so knowledgeable and they can be a little dry, can't they? But she wasn't. She really knew her stuff. And I just enjoyed hearing about things like the Witchfinder General existing in this country, not all that long ago. And people say, oh, it's hundreds of years ago. But actually, in the great scheme of things, that isn't anything.

And witchcraft... It's also just one of the best job titles ever, isn't it? Yes. Well, it's one you went for. What do you do, Gerald? Well, I'm the recently appointed Witchfinder General. What do you do? Well, I'm the recently appointed Witchfinder General. What do you do? Well,

I'm Deputy Wizard Manufacturer. Of course, we wouldn't have been given the job of Witchfinder General. We'd have been much more likely to be accused of sorcery ourselves. And in fact, by talking into these microphones, we are in fact doing something quite magical and dangerous, aren't we? Yes. Shall i get straight to sandra's email which is chastising me for my own sexism oh yes please so afternoon ladies second email in as many weeks it's all right we don't mind sandra i usually agree with your comments during the podcast but last night i was shocked to hear your comments about a wife surely in the times of the 21st century this was totally uncalled for and

wrong. Men do the housework you described. So I felt I had to write in and tell you how surprised I was to hear this. Besides this, still enjoying the show. So I know exactly what you mean, Sandra. And I would just say in our defence, we were doing it slightly in jest. The joke was kind of on us. So I'm sorry if you took that seriously. The joke is almost of on us so I'm sorry if you took that seriously The joke is almost always on us So you're right Jane doesn't need a wife I don't need a wife I think what we were trying to just say was the partner

who was there in the background doing all of the supportive stuff To mop up around And putting the salmon in tinfoil and emptying the cat litter and all of that So I'm sorry if that upsets you, especially if you're listening late at night, Sandra, and something enjoys you on a podcast.

That's so irritating, isn't it? It is irritating, yeah. Because then you've got to wake up and put the light on and change over to your Gmail and pop off something and whatever. Do you know what? If you just want to shout back at us, we can hear you. I honestly shout at the radio and at podcasts all the time. I really do.

Just on the subject of cat litter, how often do you change yours? No, I'm serious, because you've got three moggies now. Well, it's quite complicated. I'll try and keep this brief. Cool cat can go outside, because he's the big cat. He's 12 years old. Well, he does his business outside. Yes, of course he does. He's always done his business outside.

It's just Brian and Barbara, who've got a cat litter tray, so they're sharing one. It's one of the absolutely huge ones. I'm changing it about every four days. Yeah, I think that's wise. But I'm really already looking forward to the time at which they can go and frolic and do their business outside in the garden. Well, I'm still waiting for Big D.

Well, that's astonishing because I can't believe you've got a cat who won't go outside. She doesn't like it. Well, I think you just have to leave her there for a little bit. You know, my kids didn't like broccoli, but they eat it now. Well, it wasn't anything to do with toilet training, though, was it? No, but maybe you've just got to make Dora. I can't. I'm just too soft.

Like hell. Susan has emailed on the subject of tax. It's quite complicated but she was catching up yesterday with us while spring cleaning the kitchen cupboards how much fun can I handle in one day remains to be seen she says Susan it's like the kind of day I have frequently and there's nothing like a good spring clean of your kitchen cupboards

actually there really isn't she is really just outraged by the latest tax scandal it is a scandal says Susan and it underlines and puts it in bold how much it's one rule for the glitterati and another punitive rule for the rest of us. When I hear that someone has come to a deal about not paying not thousands, not tens of thousands, but millions, it just makes my blood boil. What is the direct line to this understanding member of HMRC and can we all use it? I just wanted to get all that off my chest and I will now get back to chucking out my out-of-date flour etc. It's taken me a while to settle into your new format but I'm now happily on board. Thank you for keeping us all company. Well it's our pleasure Susan, particularly

I thought actually on genuinely murky afternoons like this one. I couldn't have thought of a place I'd rather be than sitting in a warm room with young Fiona here and just chatting. Just chatting? Just chatting. What else? I would have been at home sorting out cupboards if I hadn't been here. And it is about keeping people company and occasionally just sparking a bit of a debate, which is what we did this afternoon in the company of our guest. We'll get on to her in a moment. There was another email. Oh, in fact, it's a good way of introducing our guest, who is Paulette Hamilton, the MP for Birmingham, Erdington. She's a Labour MP, first person of colour to represent a Birmingham constituency in Parliament, which is quite incredible in itself.

Debbie says, I just wanted to say how much my daughter admired Paulette. My daughter is Amy. She worked as an intern at Birmingham City Council and spent time with Paulette when she was a counsellor back in 2015. She always said how brilliant she was. She never made Amy feel like a nuisance, and she really did give Amy an insight into what she was up to. She was a genuine inspiration.

Amy now lives in London. She'll be 30 this year, but she's never forgotten how warm Paulette was to her. That's great, isn't it? It is. And I think that warmth and that honesty did come across in the interview with Paulette. We had so many things to ask her about.

Obviously, as a Labour MP, we wanted to talk about stuff within the party, also levelling up, also with her nursing career. She was a nurse before she became a politician. She had plenty to say about that. It's all coming up. And the place that we started with was in her childhood, because she was the victim of that low expectation thing, underlying racism as well well because one of her primary school teachers said to her that people like her were only destined to have babies we began by asking her what she'd say to those teachers now gosh i wish i could meet a few well especially that particular teacher i wish i could meet him now and just say please don't put things into people's heads because you never know where

it grows and where it gets to and see what's happened to me, even with your poor predictions. But anyway, that's the past and this is now. And this is your glorious present. Can we talk about the bit in between, which is your incredibly distinguished nursing career? I read that you had said that one of the things you absolutely loved about nursing was the camaraderie, just being amongst your peers all day, you know, being a nurse amongst nurses. And I wonder how you feel being a politician amongst politicians. Is there a camaraderie that you feel you've joined at Westminster? amongst politicians, is there a camaraderie that you feel you've joined at Westminster? Absolutely. They call it the Westminster bubble, don't they? You join and I know people think because we are Labour, Conservative, Liberal and Scottish Labour and what have you, different

parties, that we don't talk. But that couldn't be further from the truth. You get support from all sides of the house. You're all politicians and you're all on a journey. And I came in on a by-election. And as you know, when you come in on a by-election, it's absolutely, your world is lifted up around you. And you really do get a lot of support from the other politicians to help you to settle in. What do you think of some of the current problems, though, that may be beleaguering your party? Rosie Duffield has said that the Labour Party actually has a woman problem, and certainly the barracking that she received recently from your own benches when she stood up to discuss same-sex spaces. I mean,

it was hard to even hear her point of view. Would you agree with her comments? Can I put it like this? I'm a woman of a certain age and I think in the Labour Party, as in most things, you've got to be tolerant and we have got to, we're in a democratic country, we may agree or not agree, but we have to be able to discuss these things. So as a party, as individuals, as women, as men, that we can work through them. So for me, I'm new to this um the parliamentary type bubble but I believe there is um there is space to hear other people's points of view and we've got to ensure that we are tolerant and we debate things in a in a fair way do you think Rosie Duffield got a fair hearing? Well, as I didn't actually hear that debate, I really don't want to say she had a fair or not hearing. If people were shouting her down at the time and

they weren't prepared to listen to her, I can honestly say to you they were probably wrong because she did have a point of view and it may not be a point of view that they held but you know we have to listen and be tolerant of each other. Paulette you said you were a woman of a certain age I mean you're about the same age as me so that certain age is about 58 so we don't need to be coy about it but I'm just interested in whether you believe that the leadership of the Labour Party maybe is a little bit too interested in courting the young and fashionable and rather less interested in the views of women of our age when it comes to single sex spaces, for example? I actually think that the party's listening to

all views at the moment. I think we're not in power at the moment. I think as a party, we have got people with other views. We've got people with views that we may support. And I think at the moment, Keir is leading a party where he is listening to all sides of the argument. So I would disagree when you say that the party's just courting the very young because if you look at the last few by-elections it has actually been slightly older women that have come in I would always say and I would always stand on the side that we need more women now you know nothing beats having women. Younger women have something to give.

Middle-aged women, older women. Oh, yeah, all of that is true. But I don't think Sir Keir Starmer has leapt to Rosie Duffield's defence in any sort of public way, has he? I want to leave that there because I'm not sure, because I'll have to be honest with you the arguments in the house um people know where Rosie stands on all of this and I think um the Labour Party has had a general view that we need to be tolerant and listen to what others are saying so I really don't want to draw it to Sakia to say

because he didn't leap to a defence. I think that would be a bit unfair. Can we ask you about today's story, though, about Isla Bryson, which is frightening to many. Convicted as a man, Adam Graham, of two rapes. Since those crimes, he has begun a transitioning process and is now being held in a segregation unit at a woman's prison. How would you want that case to be dealt with?

Right now, that is a very interesting scenario for me. For me, this gentleman, this gentleman transitioning to a female, we have to, we're a democratic country, we have to treat him fairly. Transitioning to a woman, we have to number of people that have contacted me that are transitioning, I think all they want us to be is just fair towards them. So that's what I would say to you, that we need just to be fair. And he has a fair hearing. and he has a fair hearing. The person's had a fair hearing and been found guilty of two rapes.

So what are you trying to get me to say? I'm going to be honest with you because I'm not going to tell you we're going to kill him because he wants to be transitioned. No, we're not asking you for that at all. No, I think what people, what a lot of people listening to this will be struggling with is who is the more vulnerable out of those two people or three people. So you have two victims of incredibly serious sexual assault and you have one perpetrator with a conviction. And I think a lot of people do feel uncomfortable knowing who is the more vulnerable, whose rights need to be respected the most. We're at the frontier of understanding all of this. And it is helpful to hear people who've been elected to power talk about it. That's the only reason

why we're asking. Yeah. And I have to say, I would be more concerned about the women in this circumstance, if you're asking me outright. I would be more concerned, the fact that he's transitioning to a woman, I would be concerned for the women. But, saying all of that, transitioning, he will get the support he needs to ensure that he transitions safely. Books, contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. I wonder what your thoughts are on today's story that the International Council of Nurses has said that wealthy countries are basically taking

advantage of lots of other countries, particularly Ghana, by incentivising their nurses to come and work in our healthcare system. I'm not going to lie, I actually agree with that. I do believe that many of our nurses if we have in we should have enough people in a country like the UK that we can train our own and I do believe that at the moment we are traveling not necessarily the UK but first world countries are traveling around the world, incentivising other countries to lose their talents in nursing. And I do believe there needs to be some sort of, well, there needs to be a measurement of how many of these, of my fellow professionals are coming into the UK and into other countries. We need to start training our own. How can we train nurses better? How can we retain nurses better?

And we probably should say as a given, we know that more money needs to be made available just in terms of salaries. But it's more than that, isn't it? The thing for me as a nurse um we knew i knew when i went into nursing i was never going to be a millionaire but you need a work-life balance you need um some sort of a career pathway you need to understand that as a qualified nurse, you need to have other people on the ward. Staff shortages are a major issue for nurses. The fact that at the moment you have nurses that are being beaten up on the ward because you've got people coming onto the ward with mental health issues and they're not being protected enough.

with mental health issues, and they're not being protected enough. It's things like that, that it's making it difficult to retain people in the profession, as well as they're not earning enough. You know, as a profession, I truly believe that as a nurse, you're doing 12-hour shifts, some of these girls are doing. Some of them are even working longer because you go on duty, you haven't got enough staff on duty when you start. And many of them, if you should finish at eight o'clock at night, nine o'clock at night, they're not coming off duty till 11, 12 o'clock at night because they haven't got enough people to cover the shift. And they're not just working their shift but they're covering other shifts

it's just too much and I think there needs to be a complete revamp in what nurse what do we really want our nurses to do and also when I started as a nurse back in the day I was generally trained and it meant I had a wide range of experience and I do feel that over the years many nurses have been channeled into different professions and they struggle to cross over the way we had to do as job in nurses and also I just feel the fact that there isn't the funding there when they're being trained, not enough. So many of them, you'll hear that they're taking on other jobs and doing other things while they're being trained. The youngsters are just not going to put up with what some of us older ones, what we used to do.

They're not going to do it. So they look for other things and they leave. Yeah. Can we just talk a little bit, Paulette, about Erdington? Because it's a part of Birmingham. I know you grew up in Perry Bar, which is close, but it's close to Erdington, isn't it? If not actually Erdington itself. I imagine that must feel a million miles away from Westminster. What are your constituents coming to you now and talking to you about? Is it the cost of living crisis? Is it housing issues that worry them? Heating? Tell us. You've hit the nail on the head. It is a million miles, absolutely a million miles from Westminster, but they come to my surgery. It's predominantly you get lots of housing issues we get immigration issues the cost

of living crisis has absolutely impacted constituencies like mine absolutely and you know people talk about things such as people being taken off um taken off free running electricity and gas and being put on to meters. We are seeing this in our surgery and the impact of this on our local community. In my community, I have so many people that just have no food. The simple basics they just don't have. And yet when you look at the community from outside you might think well it's not that poor but it is because the unemployment levels are quite high we've got a young family we've got lots of young families you know young mothers single parent mothers with three four children and they are struggling in my constituency. And, you know, the little luxuries that other constituents have,

we just haven't got it in the Erdington constituency. So it's a poor constituency, but can I say the community spirit is still here. And another major problem for us in Erdington, sorry, I'm getting a lot of things in at once, is around exempt accommodation. So supported living, so HMOs, supported living, exempt accommodation. We have had an absolute influx. So whereas in other areas you'd have issues with families, in some parts of my constituency, you've got five, six people living in one house and the issues that are caused from that, stealing food, the fact people don't understand what

they're not getting the support that they're supposed to be paying for. We've got lots of mental health issues come in the area. It is just a difficult area to manage but it is a loving area to be part of and I've lived there for 36 years now and so it can't be that bad because I wouldn't stay there if it were. What did you hope to get Paulette from levelling up because I know that you had a bid in to do with the high street which didn't result in success. What difference would that have made and what difference does it make that you won't get the money now? Can I just say in my area, the biggest complaint I had during the election was about the High Street. People felt that the heart had gone out of the I Street, the heart and the soul.

And what I wanted to do as one of the first acts of becoming the as you know, in becoming the MP was about how do we address that and what that levelling up money would have done. It would have. We've got this very old building in the on the I Street that would have been renovated. So we would have got young talent coming in there to work. We would have had a community centre in there. But what we would have also had was new infrastructure on the I Street. So they were looking at the roads, the lighting, ways into the I Street that would make it a more attractive place to come to. Also, part of the bid would have been how we could improve travelling from the local railway station to the I Street, which at the moment is not a very nice place to be. And also the local church halfway down the I Street. We had looked at how could we support them through the bid

to help with the graveyard and the walkways and what have you, to just make it a nicer place to come in and out of. Because at the moment, we've got lots of empty buildings and shops, and we've got seven, seven betting shops right now. And the building itself, the area itself just looks run down. So, Paulette, we've only got about a minute and a half left though, but does anybody tell you why your bid has not been successful? You know what's angered me with this bid? When we lost it the first time, exactly what the government is saying now. We went to them. We got support. We got advice. We worked with the local council.

We worked with the mayor to ensure that we strengthened the bid and we still didn't get it. To be perfectly honest, I don't know what they could tell us this time that we haven't already done because we went in for the first round and we didn't get it then. That was the Labour MP Paulette Hamilton who was our big guest this afternoon and I thought she gave us a very good description actually of what has happened to so many high streets around the country where the TV cameras don't really go, there isn't enough stuff going on for people to take an interest outside of the community. But when she said there were seven betting shops. I can't believe it. It is so depressing.

On a very, very small high street. And that it was a high street that used to buzz. And you know exactly what she means. Where people would go, it wouldn't just be, I've got to go to this shop and buy this thing. You'd be bumping into people there'd be some kind of a hub around it and that's what the leveling up money was going to change and they didn't win their bid it is very very depressing first of all that any high street can sustain seven betting shops suggests to me that some people who really can't afford to be going

into betting shops are doing exactly that. And some huge companies are making a lot of money out of them. And it just seems completely wrong. And it's also, you know, so many of the big football clubs are sponsored by betting firms. I find a bit of a thing about that. Well, I just find that really, it's outrageous. And again, you've got some quite vulnerable young minds being exposed to all this it just shouldn't be on

I agree, I think also it's when the big sporting stars and there's one manager, ex-manager in particular when he says why not take a break from betting from time to time you just think, but you're the one who's been telling me to bet all the time

I don't know whether that works. Yeah, I don't know whether that works. I don't know either. No, it's a really depressing, really significant issue, which I think does go slightly under the radar. So that was Paulette Hamilton. Also, plenty of talk in that interview about the big story of the day, certainly the controversial talking point,

which is the rapist who in Scotland has now, they haven't actually been sentenced, but they have been found guilty of two rapes. And they are currently in a woman's prison in Scotland. And that was something that was addressed in that interview with Paulette. But it's a massive talking point. Although, as I say that, if you landed on planet Earth from planet common sense, you would look at the facts of that case and just think I don't think that person should be in a women's prison is my that would be my view had I landed on this planet from somewhere

else yeah one of the huge problems obviously with talking about all of these trans issues is exactly what you're struggling with as a very eloquent person well not that eloquent no no but that's the problem isn isn't it? It's battling to be inoffensive whilst being true to my own feelings on the subject. Yes, and I know that lots of you who were listening to our interview with Paulette as it was going out were struggling with your own eloquence to respond to her, and this is where it all gets in a great big muddle.

You hear someone saying what they actually think, and you do have to check in with yourself as to whether or not you want to respond in kind and it all gets higher and higher and higher the volume and I think harder to understand. Yeah it is a complex issue and it's one that a lot of people wrestle with and as you pointed out during our conversation with Peter Tatchell, who was on the programme later, this has been probably a very difficult day for any number of people who do feel genuinely, legitimately that they are not in the right body and that they would seek to change that body. And this is the worst of circumstances for those people. More to follow. Yeah, I suspect this one is not over. There will

be much more. Here's an email from Jo on a completely different topic that says, Dear Finn Jane, your new show is brilliant. That's very kind. That's very kind. It's not brilliant. It's often quite good. It often goes out. Well, we hope it always goes out. This afternoon, as I was struggling to stay on my chair, I was laughing so much while listening to the hilarious accounts of swimming, playing across and Fee's broken finger. Don't laugh at my broken finger, Jo! I thought if Fee mentions her new

kittens again, then I must get in touch. And she did. I'm bound to. So here I am. I just had this to say. I had no idea that Fee knew my delightful South African in-laws, but now realised that along the way she must somehow have become acquainted with the lovely Brian and Barbara from Johannesburg. And like them so much, she decided to name her pussycats after them.

I'm thrilled. And if Fee hasn't already, let them know. I will call them with the joyous news with very best wishes. So when we were deciding, me and the kids, what to call the kittens. Yeah, where did the names come from? Well, I'd always wanted to call, if I had another daughter, I'd wanted to call her Barbara. Don't say anything. Well, no, there have been some greats. Windsor, Streisand.

Not everybody has that reaction, Jane. And I've just always, always wanted to have an animal called Brianrian so unfortunately i did get my way with the names but i just knew and one of the kids did say you'll meet a brian and barbara sometime in exactly the same way that when we were deciding years and years ago what the best way to refer to female body parts was and i know you know as you are the former presenter of Woman's Hour we shouldn't be shy of using proper biological gynecological terms. There's a lot of front bottomitis around very much so but we didn't want to use vagina I don't know why so anyway we started to refer in our household to Wendy bits and of course that completely and utterly fell apart. Sorry come again.

to Wendy Bits and of course that completely and utterly fell apart. Sorry, come again. Wendy Bits and that completely fell apart when a very lovely friend of ours Oh no. Came round to introduce his new girlfriend. She was called Bits.

Would you like to meet Wendy? Oh, Wendy's lovely. Absolutely lovely. But of course the the kids just fell about laughing. So don't do it, is what I'm saying. Just go for vagina. Stick with the gynecological terms. Well, that seems a positive way to end. Go for vagina.

Have a very good evening. Thank you very much indeed for listening. I'm going to the theatre and I will bring you my full review on the podcast tomorrow. I actually, young Kate Lee, who's been in charge today, has massively added to the gaiety of my date by telling me that I said I was going to see Othello and I was, you know, going with a friend and a teenage daughter and I was sort of doing it, not exactly as a favour, but as my cultural box tick of the week. And I wasn't really looking forward to it, but Kate's reassured me it's a kind of modern, theatrical,

dancey, lots of movement version, and it isn't that long. OK. Which, as you said earlier, is what Shakespeare would have wanted. You can imagine, at the court of Queen Elizabeth, they're all gathering for Willie's latest production, and the maids of honour, the ladies, the Ladies in Waiting, the Jesters, all the courtiers in their finery, they've got one thought in their minds, haven't they, really?

What time can I leave? Exactly. But Shakespeare never knew, and he went on for hours. I cannot wait to hear your review of it tomorrow because I wasn't really privy to the whole conversation, but so far I've gathered it's got dance it's got disco and it's being staged on a pool table. I think it's billiards

but you're not theatrical like me so you'll find out more tomorrow Oh Jane, good luck Good luck, good luck, good night It's Jane and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought

hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day.

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