Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I've clung to the idea I may be of regal blood (with John Whaite)

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Jane and Fi are off to a book launch tonight... but Fi is less than thrilled about the prospect of sharing a taxi with Jane, who has been consuming lentils "well known for their wind manufacturing properties." Before that, they talk teaching, whether they're descended from royalty, and the bloodline of Fi's cat. They're joined by Bake Off winner John Whaite and they discuss his new memoir Dancing On Eggshells. If you've been affected by any issues discussed in today's episode then email [e-mail] and we will point you in the direction of places to receive help. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Megan McElroy Times Radio Producer: Eve Salusbury Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome, welcome. It's Tuesday here in London town, the eve of storm. What's it called this one coming? Babette. Babette's a weird name, isn't it? Well, it's a little bit close to my favourite name of all time, Barbara. And so I don't like, I don't, I don't really like the naming of storms and hurricanes and typhoon the weather's got a lot worse since we started giving them names I think people given weather events ideas above their weather station frankly yeah quite erratic and wild aren't they I think just a number would do we just used to call it a bit of rain which is to call it autumn well as you

know typhoons and hurricanes always had names. They were always given people's names. Oh, I'm sorry, I was just being global. Yeah, you're very much global and I'm very much Britain. But anyway, it is coming and batten down the hatches because it's going to be a bit of a mean one, I think. Yes, and as I always say, if you don't have a hatch, it's never too late. Get one. Yes, I'm not sure that I have a hatch at home.

Have you got a hatch at home? I don't know. What was that thing that people used to have before they knocked through? Well, you would. You'd have a hatch between your kitchen. Yeah, and your dining room. And your dining room, as you could just slide open. And actually, I remember reading a very good radio review of you and Peter Allen

when you left Five Live written by the great Miranda Sawyer yeah and she said that listening to you was like listening to an old married couple where the wife was stuck in the kitchen occasionally shouting things through the hatch yeah I thought it was quite good probably did sum up that particular thank goodness I've moved on to this sapphic bliss I'm involved in now. Keep your bliss to yourself, love. Right. So we have got... We must get a wiggle on because we've got a very important showbiz event to attend.

But we do want to briefly mention... We've had a lot... Well, perhaps not briefly. We've had a lot of thoughtful emails from you in the light of the question that we punted out yesterday. Because we'd had an email from Alexis wasn't it um I mean gently chiding us really for not mentioning the Israel Gaza situation so yes it was Alexa actually but I know that's now complicated because lots of machines have gone on so sorry about that I think Alexis might be better yeah okay um So thank you to everybody who's taken the time to reply.

And this is from Elizabeth, who says, I am Jewish and whatever the reasons for people not commenting, I have never felt so isolated and even abandoned. And over the past 10 days, I should add that it has felt like receiving a warm hug when non-Jewish friends have contacted me to see how I was feeling. It has also felt wonderful when public figures have expressed their empathy for the Jewish community and a sense of relief when they expressed their revulsion at the atrocities. However, I have wondered what is holding some people back. Of course there are some who rejoiced in the killings. I'm hoping they are a tiny minority. Are the other people too nervous to speak and if so why or do they just not

care? Elizabeth, thank you very much for writing to us and I don't think it's that people don't care. I really, really don't. I think there are plenty of people, plenty of us, who aren't sure what to say. And it's funny that I did actually think twice before I texted a friend who is Jewish, but then I did, just to ask her how she was. But I was, because genuinely,

I just wasn't sure what to put in the message. So in the end, I just said, how are you? But it's not an excuse. I'm just sort of bumbling around trying to find a reason for why I thought about it for a few days before doing anything. And did you get a reply? Yes, yeah, I did. But I don't want to invade her privacy, but it's definitely not Elizabeth.

The overwhelming majority of people care. They really, really do. And it just may very well be that they just don't know quite whether to find the words or whether they think that perhaps by talking about it to you, they might be adding to your pain or saying something awkward or stupid. I don't know. Yes, or making an identification about you based on your background, your ethnicity, your culture, your religion, that has not been in a friendship before.

Because I presume that that's part of your hesitation in simply contacting a Jewish friend, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So I would feel the same, that there are lots of friends who I've known for years and years and years, Jane, where we have never discussed the difference in our religious beliefs or if we have religious beliefs or how closely connected they still are to their Jewish communities or whether or not they've stopped going to the synagogue or ever did go. And it's just never been there in our friendships

because it hasn't needed to be. And what a glorious thing that's been, that we've all met and talked about and formed friendships over very different things, not necessarily over religion or ethnicity. And now it's come to the fore. And I think for a lot of people that is quite difficult in the same way that you know when other you know atrocities have occurred you might not always feel

that you want to ask your Muslim friends how they you know feel about world events because you know maybe it's just irrelevant it's human pain it's human suffering it's human suffering, it's caused by darkness, it's caused by evil. They might not think that it has any direct connection to them and they're right to be able to have a distance. Oh, yeah. So I think also some of the silence, we have talked about this before on the podcast, perhaps in its previous iteration, actually, and not here.

I mean, there definitely is a sin of omission, isn't there, when you deliberately ignore something and, you know, therefore you just make it worse. But I think as the horror unfolded after last Saturday, there were many people who needed a bit of time actually to take on board the magnitude of what was happening and the loss that families are feeling. happening and the loss that families are feeling and so some of that it isn't that you are downgrading it by not talking about it you're simply processing something in your own head until a time at which you can find the right words and I think it's also um it doesn't really need to be said but it is perfectly possible to hold in your head two thoughts at the same time. One is that what happened on that dreadful Saturday was truly hideous and I cannot imagine the pain that will be felt by the people of Israel or

indeed people who are Jewish in this country or elsewhere. You can absolutely think that and you can also feel desperately upset at the suffering of those people gathered, for example, at that crossing, trying to get into Egypt with the hope that that crossing might at some point be open. You know, if you watched a single news bulletin over the last couple of days, you've seen families, tiny children slumped on suitcases, leaning against. It's just hideous. And you can absolutely feel sorry for everybody involved that's an entirely legitimate thing to feel isn't it and it's not a question of picking a side um oh no please don't pick no it's just it's you don't have to do that you can just feel

i think i know i don't normally say uh you know as a parent and all that because i think it suggests that if you're not a parent you don't have any empathy and that's bollocks but sometimes when you do see women struggling with two small children and a few bits of baggage whoever they are in the world wherever they are you just your heart does go out to them doesn't it it's just there's just if only there were more we could do about it anyway we also talked about teachers and the impact on them and indeed the responsibility they might feel. And we'll keep this teacher anonymous. Oh, she says, I don't mind if you say it's from Rosie.

I'm a secondary school teacher in a diverse part of London and many of our staff and students have been impacted by the events. We have to tread a very fine line in how we support students. As teachers, we must be politically neutral, but we can provide a safe space for students to talk and ask questions. We can teach them compassion and reassure them that they don't have to take sides. They can condemn an act of terrorism and they can feel solidarity with the Gazan and Israeli civilians who now live in fear. As teachers we aren't afraid to admit we don't have all the answers. So we signpost reputable news sources and we carry on giving space for students to talk.

At my school, we have 20 minutes of tutor time every day where this can happen. And there is other pastoral support at lunchtime and after school, etc. Rosie, thank you very much indeed for that. And the best of luck in your in your teaching career I bet you're you're a good teacher. Can I just say we've got an email special coming up haven't we in two weeks time and I know that so many people have written to us over the last 24

hours saying please pepper grinder conversations closed peg conversations that's what we come to the podcast for and that's what we come to the podcast for. And that's what we really enjoy hearing, especially at the moment, the more lighthearted stuff where you know that you're going to press play on the podcast and not be taken to a very dark place. So we really, really hear you. I would say that we will probably put some more serious emails into the email special in two weeks' time, if that's OK with with everybody because then we can kind of signpost when we're talking about really difficult stuff

i just wanted to say that elizabeth in listening in calgary in canada you've sent a really thoughtful email about what we were talking about regarding trans people being in hospital so i'm going to do that one in the email special and I'm going to include a really, really good email that came in from Jenny on that topic. So that's just to mark your card about that. This email is from an ex-teacher. They were in teaching for 35 years and this person has this assessment of his former colleagues

and I think you could probably say this about people, by the way, in any line of work. Outside their specific areas of expertise teachers are in my experience representative of wider society most are thoroughly decent people with a fairly general general knowledge of current affairs many probably couldn't locate israel on a map the majority prefer love island to news night and catchphrase to university challenge some always vote in a general election some thought thought Boris Johnson was just what we needed, and a very small minority are sexist, racist bigots, though in 99.9% of cases this would never show itself in the classroom.

I've sat through enough well-intentioned but ill-informed assemblies about equality, diversity, racism, gay rights, the traveller community and capital punishment to know that expecting teachers to be able to cover such sensitive issues simply because they're teachers is an unrealistic ask. In too many schools this week the edict from the senior leadership team will have been Jenny it's your assembly on Thursday can you do something about Israel and Gaza and And form teachers, can you make sure you talk to your pupils about it in form time this week too?

How could you do that? Right. Take your point and it goes back to what I've always said about teachers. It's an incredibly tough job. I wouldn't want to do it. And your assessment of do you think teachers really,

some of them, the majority, prefer Love Island to University Challenge? I won't have that. No. No. Don't be ridiculous. Not now it's got its new host, especially. Oh, no, definitely not now. No, absolutely not.

But thank you. I loved the email and it does speak of a rich life experience. It certainly does. And how long would your average assembly be? I think probably in my parental experience on the school timetable, they've been anything between seven and nine minutes long. And you cannot explain the nuances of the Middle East in seven to nine minutes. Yeah.

Have school assemblies got shorter then? Oh, yes. Okay. I'm trying to remember. Yeah, have school assemblies got shorter then? Oh yes. Okay, I'm trying to remember. Yeah, I mean I think... Obviously it's a while since I went to one. Yeah, I think they can be quite compressed at the beginning of the day. Right, but other people might have different experiences, as we always like to say, as a caveat for absolutely everything. Naomi says on Monday's podcast you read a letter from a man who wondered how he could find out what you're doing next. You interpreted that as your job, and I think he meant what content you were

covering on the next day's show. And I love that you pointed that out, Naomi, because we went straight for pompous, didn't we? That somebody might be interested in our next massive career move. There won't be any of those, I can assure you. You literally want to know. Krishnan Guru Murthy is on the show tomorrow.

He's talking about his experience on Strictly Come Dancing. So thank you for pointing that out. And Naomi goes on to say, also my sister and her family adopted two gorgeous tabby kittens, a brother and a sister, from an animal shelter last week. Unfortunately, these poor little creatures are still nameless. Please share your best name ideas. Well, that is a beautiful challenge, Naomi, and one that I would like to throw out to our listeners. So you've got little tabbies, a brother and

a sister. Off you go. Yes, we're not up to this task. But Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. What is it? Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Tell us what you and Fee at Times.Radio tell us what you would call a pair of tabbies a girl and a boy Quite cute are they? Are they cute or are they like the one I've got? Well, two gorgeous tabby kittens

is the description that Naomi has used I tell you what, I think one of Brian's long lost family has started roaming the garden Well, you were very cynical about the fact that I think that Barbara has been visited by her errant father, this great big cat that turns up at the window and just kind of stares at her

and puts her into a little bit of a tizzy. And my two cats are born of the neighbourhood love interest. Oh, I see, are they? Yes. So you really do think that it might be him? I think so. That's very sweet. And this cat that's got exactly the same shape as Brian

turned up in the garden yesterday, and I think that might be Brian's cousin. So it's family time. The Beverly Hillbillies round at your place, isn't it? Emily, thank you so much for your email. I am so sorry that you and your family have had such a tough time. And lots of love to you and to your teenage boys. And thank you very much for emailing us and stick with our fare.

We will try to keep it. We'll keep it as kind of light and shade as we always have. I think that's the way forward. But we don't know what lies ahead in the next couple of weeks. And we'd be a bit ridiculous never to discuss um what is going on in the wider world but no but i just don't want people to think that we're not discussing it because we don't care we don't think it's important we absolutely do um but you know we want to make room for people who come to this just to yeah fall asleep really yeah and i know that lots of people do and we don't mind that

absolutely well i do a bit actually i was going to say absolutely not it's not true really. Yeah. And I know that lots of people do. And we don't mind that. Absolutely. Well, I do a bit, actually. I was going to say absolutely not. It's not true. Oh, I'm so sorry. Katie's in, she's in Boston. I always appreciate, Jane, how you represent your Irish heritage, like you did yesterday and asking for a summary on Irish leaders. Yes, that was because Ian Dale has written his book about English monarchs. And what was the statistic was incredible that English and British monarchs he'd written his book on, if he'd included Welsh and Scottish, it would have been how much longer?

Oh, no, I don't think it was. I think it was nothing more than a guesstimate. I think it was kind of, you know, he just said three times as big. It would have been an impossible book to lift up, basically. Yes. So no offence intended. I said he should have done something on the High Kings of Ireland.

I only mentioned that because my nan used to tell me I was descended from Irish royalty. Truly I believe she was making it up. But it stuck a bit didn't it? It certainly stuck. I've clung to the idea that I may be of regal blood. Oh my god that was

Don't you know what my mum's family are incredibly proud of having been servants Jane and that might lie me that one of the many differences, Jane. That might lie. One of the many differences between us. There's nothing wrong with being servants. No, but that's what I'm saying. So they're really proud of their heritage, which is not, you know,

I've not been told that I'm related to royalty. I've been absolutely told all the way through my life that our family, my mum's family, you know, were carriage drivers and maids and housekeepers and and i've loved those stories actually really really loved those stories i've not imagined myself to have been uh born to a tiara no um i should point out that my nan was born in bootle should point out that my nan uh was born in bootle yes but by the way um there's plenty of royalty comes from that part of the world um and she did carry her so she had she was a tiny lady but she did carry herself with a certain amount of regal authority uh and uh it wouldn't surprise me at all if she had a spot more than a spot or two of royal blood. I mean, we are going back here to very, very, very mists of Celtic time. We need to be very clear about that.

But Katie in Boston enjoyed it. And I sense that she's from the same DNA as myself. Do you want to be serious for a moment? My mum is in the family, the kind of genealogist, and she's done lots of fantastic research going back and it's one of those things isn't it I don't think you're really that interested in when you're a kid but when you get older you do become more fascinated by it and but her mum so my my granny granny grace she left school

when she was 14 Jane and she put herself through bookkeeping college because she wanted to you know do something with her life and she was really really good at maths and she then had to go back to look after her mum who was really ill that long arm of caring you know takes many female opportunities away so she did that and nursed her mum until she died and the local GP noticed that she was just really, really good with people and had an interest in the, you know, the medical side of caring. So encouraged her to become a nurse. So she put herself through nursing college, which is how she then met my grandfather, who had trained as a doctor and come down from Edinburgh, they met at UCH. But it's just such an extraordinary story of how much changes in three generations.

You know, the idea that she left school at 14, you know, when I was still very securely looking ahead to my O levels, you know, with this future ahead of me where I was being encouraged to go to university. And it was absolutely assumed that I could and that I would then, you know, be able to have a career, have a job. The same granny also had to give up nursing when she got married. Of course. Them's the rules. So it's incredible, isn't it, just how quickly things turn. It really is incredible, and I don't think we can say often enough that our lives are so, so different from our grandmothers'.

Unrecognisable. Absolutely unrecognisable. But it's rarely discussed. It's just a weird thing. I mean, we're talking about it, but on the whole, it's never even acknowledged. And it's just not that long ago. So I wonder what then happens, you know, if you spool forward two generations. So we both have daughters, and I'm not being pejorative by not talking about male opportunities opportunities but it is the female opportunity that's changed so much in those two generations so do you think the pace of change carries on or do you think it slows down

it's a massive question for you there Jane that really is a massive question one I don't feel up to answering okay but perhaps the listeners will have a view on that love to hear some thoughts on that yeah I mean I mean, it's a big argument, isn't it? Have women... Well, we have. Of course we've made progress. Have we peaked? I think I may have.

But, you know, what's that terrible thing? Never take yourself too seriously because your children's grandchildren won't know your name. Yeah. Your children's grandchildren. Yes. And it's true. Yep.

You'll just be a little... Well, you'll be a little name on my mum's genealogy board. That's all you are. Yeah. Yeah. But love some thoughts on that. And maybe that would enable people to tell us some lovely stories about their own family trees. I'd welcome those.

Yes. That would be very interesting. I bet everyone's got, they've got, everyone's got a grandparent story in their locker, haven't they? I hope so. Don't let them linger in the locker. Bring them out. Right. Our big guest today is...

Oh, it's John Waite, who you... Well, you read his book, didn't you? I confess I joined the interview, but I was not the person who was leading on this particular interview. And I know that you really enjoyed it. It's a book of revelations isn't it that if you only know John because he won Bake Off and he was then the runner-up on Strictly and has been doing a lovely turn as a TV chef on Steph's Pack Lunch you wouldn't really know

that his life has been quite so bumpy actually. Well Well, it really has. And the book is called Dancing on Eggshells. He does reveal a lot in this book, actually. And we need to make clear that there are some sensitive subjects in this conversation with John. There are also some lovely subjects, so please don't be put off. But if you are affected by any of the bigger and more challenging issues in the conversation, then please do email feedback at times.radio

and you'll be pointed in the direction of places you can get help. But here is John Waite, a winner of the Bake Off and a runner-up on Strictly. And he came to our studio last week in the company of his wheelie case. So we wanted to know where he was going. Oh, I don't know, really. Well, I do know. I was at an event last night. Yeah, don't lie.

I completely know. And I'm at an event tonight and I'm going to Cheltenham Literature, not Literary Festival tomorrow. So, yeah, I've just had to bring all my outfits, but I'm really sorry for what I'm wearing before you right now. I'm wearing what can only be described as a chav ensemble. Well, you can say that about yourself, but I certainly wouldn't say that. Would you not? No, and I travelled up with you in the lift and you immediately apologised

for what I thought when I'd seen you when I was coming up the escalator was just a very nice kind of gym kit. I thought you were just wearing a lot of athleisure wear. Well, what it is, is I was at a retirement village last night and I split my jeans doing a slut drop with some of the retirees. Jane, do you think this is the

best sentence that anybody's ever uttered so far on our podcast? It really, really shows promise. I've got a better sentence, but I'm not sure I could speak about it. Finish the story, you're in a retirement village. So, yeah, I was in this retirement village. It's Tonic Housing in Vauxhall, and it's Tonic Housing in

Vauxhall, and it's the first, and I think so far only, LGBTQ plus retirement village. Oh, I've read about it, yeah. Do you know what, the work that they are doing, it's just, I mean, I was in tears all last night and all this morning, because it's these micro-injustices that

my community has suffered and continues to suffer, that if we speak about them, a lot of people who don't really need to think about them say things like, what are you moaning for? You've made progress. What are you moaning for? But it's not about moaning. It's about saying this is still an injustice. So it was really lovely to see the retirees or the inmates, as one of them called themselves, last night at the Tonic housing. But there was a drag queen performing

and I got a little bit rowdy and did a couple of slut drops and then I sat down and looked crotchward and the crotch was no longer there on my jeans. So I've had to come to you in sweat-wicking technology outfit athleisure wear today. Do you not carry a small sewing kit with you, John? No. Well, you've let yourself down.

And can I say you've let rural Lancashire down. But never mind. I could have used a stapler. I could have stapled the crop. No, that's very dangerous. It's a really, really serious point that the lives that are led, not always in Britain, but can now be led in Britain by gay people, are so, so different to 25 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago.

Presumably the people that you met and spoke to were people who had to hide. They were people who had to live their lives as a lie and live their lives in fear. And it was interesting because there was also a panel discussion there last night with a really senior psychiatrist at the Maudsley Clinic. there last night with a really senior psychiatrist at the Maudsley Clinic. And he really made it quite clear how damaged and how damaging that kind of those kind of microaggressions over the course of a lifetime can be. And some of the retirees, some of the residents spoke very, very beautifully about how it affected them and continues to affect them, even though they are now in a place where they have a sense of community.

And it makes me think about my future, my partner's future. Like if I lose my partner, you know, I get goosebumps thinking about it. Where will I end up? Who will look after me when I'm in that final chapter of my life? Because, and I know that queer people can have children and maybe one day I will.

But even if you do have children, it doesn't mean that they're going to look after you because some children are terrible some parents are terrible but I think there is not to be to kind of perpetuate stereotypes but there is still a lot of loneliness within the gay community and it's it's fearsome it really is fearsome. And without giving any identities away is there anything that you'd be able to tell us of somebody's story from last night that might make exactly those points?

Yeah, so an older gentleman had lost his partner and they'd set up a kind of a home for themselves, like a bungalow with all the amenities. And he'd lost his partner and he just felt the biggest barrier for him then was loneliness. And he felt that he could go nowhere and so when he found tonic housing he was able to become a part of a community again and have people to love him and look after him and communicate with um but i made a little kind of vt about this excuse me on steps pack lunch, gosh, about two years ago. And I didn't even I didn't realize that LGBTQ

people of an older age often have to go back into the closet when they go into a retirement village because there is still so much discrimination against them. And it just it just I just really print and you know, in the month that Suella Braverman has used LGBT asylum seekers as a wedge for her political swinging, I just feel we need to stop the use of these microaggressions against our community. We need to try and get to equality for the right reasons. Well, there's clearly still work to be done. And your book, Dancing on eggshells is the name of the book and it's um it's a great title because it takes your two reality tv worlds and merges them um but it also hints at the fact that your life has not been easy and it certainly hasn't been

without challenge and um i just wonder do you think in a way reality television wonderful though is for the viewer, actually attracts as participants the very people who should avoid it like the plague. I have that exact belief. I really, really do. I think the very nature of reality TV, I think, is that it kind of promises something. It's an unspoken contract, isn't it, in a way? It's an unspoken promise that it will give you something, the attention, the validation, success, money, celebrity. And I think the people who are most vulnerable to that and to that, the desire for those things are the people who will apply. Not all of them, of course. But I do feel that Bake Off was and is still different. I don't see Bake Off as a reality TV show. I see it as a talent show.

And I applied for Bake Off for my love of baking. And I did Strictly for the... Well, it's a great gig, let's face it, Strictly. But also it was an opportunity to undo some of the injustices against the community of which I'm a part. So I do agree with you on that, I do. And I do think that's particularly why there needs to be much more due diligence and care from commissioners, from channels, towards contributors.

I think they should have to pay into an independent welfare body that then looks after those people after the event. So young John, growing up on a farm in rural Lancashire, I think you took to the stage first of all in Chorley. I did. Is that correct? My birth town. Your birth town.

And a place that I think Victoria Wood particularly loved references to Chorley. There is something about Chorley. There's a Chorley cake, isn't there? Yeah, a Chorley cake is similar to an Eccles cake. And I really should know the difference, but I don't. So I'm not even going to try to declare what the difference is. Okay.

So your family was obviously, it was you and your dad and your mum and your sister. Yes. Two sisters. Two sisters, sorry, forgive me. And then your parents split up, which you really do believe had quite an impact on the young John. Oh, completely.

I do. I think, you know, they had to split up and I don't hold that against them. Of course I don't. But I do think that that loss of a father figure for me, he was still very much in my life. But I think the loss of a father figure for me was a difficult thing to navigate. And just that franticantic horrible separation and the change particularly the change from being this very working class estate growing up on an estate to move into my stepfather's house which was a middle-class farmer's old eerie barn and he's a wonderful person my stepdad I don't ever you know want to hold anything against him but it was that it was that shift in the class system for me I think that I found most troubling and difficult what's also so fascinating about the

book you you write very frankly about your your bulimia which we'll talk about in a moment but I do remember from that time obviously a lot older than you but the mixed messages around food I mean your family ran a chippy yes and, but your mum was macking on Weight Watchers. Yeah. And there's a great line in the book about an assistant in the chip shop who would dip a sausage barm cake into Weight Watchers soup. I mean, this is just all over the place, isn't it? It is. It's very contradictory and very, very, it's just, it's bonkers. And that's what it was like. There was the calorie counting books that you get free with magazines. That was wedged behind the till in the chip shop.

And every time my sister or my mum or any of the girls would eat something, they would go through that book and torture themselves based on the calories. They wouldn't just allow themselves to have a plate of chips, well, a scoop of chips or a cone of chips. They had to then think about, oh, we'll put extra vinegar on it because the vinegar will help reduce the carbohydrate intake. And they were constantly thinking about mitigating what they were doing, mitigating their enjoyment and their lives.

And that, for me, I think had an impact on body dysmorphia and body image, for sure, I think. And your dad made a point of saying he really didn't like fat people. Yeah, he did. He's very neurotic, my dad. I hope I can say that about my dad, but he is. Very, very controlled, very slender. He likes to stay in shape. He's 81 and he still rides his push bike and he can still do a headstand.

He's remarkable. But he was quite vociferous about fat people. And I think that had an impact. Of course it does, because it made me question what are fat people really unlovable if if if the person that I one of the people that I look look up to most in life and trust with all my soul is being quite vocal about fat people what does that say about that so I think it was a very conflicted um attitude that my entire family had towards food and that undoubtedly has become ingrained in me

but you went on bake-off and I should say that in between the the really soul-bearing stuff in this book there are recipes for lovely food I mean it's it's all in there um but I suppose as a reader I've got to be honest John I was a bit I wasn't sure what to make of the recipes in amongst how honest you've been about everything else. Well I kind of wish we'd not put them in because my publisher said we want you to put recipes in there and for the audiobook particularly I said can we take them out

and they said no and I really wish I'd just put my foot down and been quite insistent on the fact because I do think they distract from the narrative I love the recipes and some of them are very very pertinent to the stories and been quite insistent on the fact, because I do think they distract from the narrative. I love the recipes, and some of them are very, very pertinent to the stories. But I do think perhaps they would have been better all assembled together at the end in like a little reference. Yeah, I guess in a way that's a technicality, isn't it?

But it's just because it was such a contrast to what else you were saying. But I guess it kind of is fairly symbolic of my life, because food for me, and I say this in the book, is both a saviour and a terrorist, I think, along the lines of that. I think, you know, food is something that I adore and I love to put all my creative energy into, but I am absolutely frightened to this day of what food can do to me because if I get started on anything, like anything sweet,

my biggest problem is cereal. If I have cereal in the house, that then triggers a bulimic binge and purge undoubtedly and then i'll finish the box go to the shop buy another box and i'll just do that until i am in agony and so i think it's those creature comfort foods for me that are very very triggering so i guess really that peppering of recipes throughout the book, albeit fairly random and a little bit disjointed, does probably represent my attitude and my relationship with food. This is actually in many ways a very serious book. I think people might be a bit

surprised by how serious it is. And you do talk too about your first sexual experience, which was when you were very young you were 13. I was. And the man in question was 30? Yeah. Or in his 30s? Yeah, 30. I mean how do you regard that now?

As abuse? And it's taken me a great deal of contemplation to get to that point because, you know, I was a randy teenager, I was horny, of course I wanted to do things with hot older men, but that isn't the point I was horny. Of course I wanted to do things with hot older men. But that isn't the point. The emphasis isn't on what I wanted. The emphasis should have been and is on him. He had, he was in a position of power over me. You know, he was 30.

He was very close to me and my family. And he ought to have, I was groomed. He groomed me. Because he continued to say things like, oh, you've put weight on, you know, and it wasn't just this one encounter, it continued, the one sexual encounter that I referenced in the book, it continued. So I look back now and I accept that it was grooming.

As hard as that conclusion is to come to, it was grooming, and I think it's a particularly important story, albeit a very small story of the book, because I do believe that children, when they are at that kind of very important point of transitioning to adulthood, and particularly queer children, or non-binary, non-gender children who are kind of questioning themselves, they are more vulnerable, I think, to abuse. And I certainly was. And I think that encounter or those encounters have led me to be much, to be very disrespectful with my own sexuality and my own body. I kind of treated

myself and continue in some ways to treat myself like an object when I should treat myself with nothing but dignity and pride. We are talking to John Waite. He, of course, appeared on Strictly back in 2021 as part of the first male same-sex partnership with Johannes Raderby. Yeah, so we were the first male partnership following in the footsteps of Katya and Nicola Adams. And you, I think, initially said yes to it, but you said you'd be better off dancing with a straight man. Now, can you explain why you thought that would somehow be more palatable to the audience?

Yeah, I use that word precisely, palatable, because I think what I thought was that if we... If it were two gay men, if it were Johannes and me, it would be somewhat about the gay agenda, I guess. I hate that word agenda, the gay agenda, but I think that's what people would think it would be about. So not my opinion, but what people would think. And I just thought if we were more palatable, then it wouldn't lead to the distress and the kind of violent closing off of the television on a Saturday night. You know, parents wouldn't say, I'm not watching this, this is disgusting. If it were me and, say, Kai or Graziano, they'd just see it as dancing.

But I worried that they wouldn't be able to see past our sexualities, were it to be me and Johannes. So I thought, if I asked to dance with a straight man, then it would be more palatable and it would be more acceptable and we'll be okay. And did the Strictly people try to persuade you otherwise or were they prepared to go along with whatever you wanted? I didn't have a say, I don't think.

I told my agent and he said, you've not really got a say, but I'll put it to them. Right. Because I think they figure out who's going to go with who very very early on for height reasons for location reasons you know and we were in the well we were at the tail end of Covid so we had to be very careful about movement of people and all of that and so I don't think I had a say and I'm glad I didn't and you're I mean it was amazing to see you dance and actually I thought it was just incredibly life-enhancing and powerful. But we talked earlier this week,

I mean, I know this is going out next week, I'm getting very confused now, to Shirley Ballas about her own experience, not just of being on Strictly, but about being in the dance world. I'll listen to it. John, it just sounds like a tough old place to be. It sounds awful. Yeah, I mean, she didn't sell it.

I mean, clearly, my chance of a life in professional dance, I feel, Fee, do you think I have a chance? I think you've got a shot. I'd never give up the dream, Jane. No, I don't have a dream, because honestly, it sounds like a nightmare. Did Shirley shatter your dreams? She did slightly. Well, no, she just, I mean, it just sounded like it had been tough on her.

Yeah, yeah. If half of the stuff that is in her fictional debut novel is even remotely adjacent to the truth, what a nightmare. I know. What a nightmare. I was listening to that, and I was just, I was blown away by the name Topaz Pringle.

Oh, what a brilliant memory you've got. I thought, bloody hell, what a brilliant name, Topaz Pringle. I'll never be able to eat a Pringle again. She's destroyed Pringles. Yeah, she's ruined it. She's ruined all Saturday night snacks. But she's amazing to have survived, I think, a very, very long career right at the top of dance

with I think with herself intact, actually, and possibly a decent amount of self-awareness. I mean, apart from anything else about how she feels about her body and she is definitely somebody who has acknowledged a eating disorder that has lived alongside her for a very very long time do you rather wish that you had not entered a world where your eating disorder was going to be so challenged again the tv world yeah

well the dancing world with everybody looking at your body john i mean you are you know you are a statuesque man you are very beautiful to look at j Jane would agree with me here. And you know that people, you know that people are going to be enjoying watching you, don't you? Well, I think that's part of the world we live in. And I think that's part of me trying to make myself statuesque and chiseled as possible to be presentable for the reasons we spoke about before um but i do think i do think this career this industry definitely proliferates my bulimia and i've come to that conclusion recently and decided to take some time off from the channel 4 show that i do with steph mcguffin steph's packed lunch because i am increasingly aware that there is a direct

correlation between being on television and feeling out of control in the industry when I want to make documentaries about LGBT rights and retirement homes for queer people, but I'm kind of being shoehorned into being the camp chef on daytime TV. There is a direct correlation between that lack of control and my bulimia. And for years, I thought, what's going on? What is the trigger? Is it my parents? No, it's not. They're amazing.

But there was some kind of narcissistic entity above me that was controlling me in terms of my bulimia and I think I believe that to be now television I love the industry I love to entertain I love to show off but I welcome to the club do I get a membership card yeah you're very much absolutely fine. But I do, I question whether it is healthy for me. I question whether I can get to a place rather where I am healthy with it. And I think I could get there, but is it going to be difficult to get there while I'm still a part of it?

Probably. So I need to take a bit of time back and just take a step back and just kind of rethink. Well, we haven't got time to do everything about your life and times, but you went to Oxford, you got into Oxford, and it wasn't for you. You've got a law degree now from Manchester. I mean, the world, forget television, the world is your oyster, isn't it? I don't like oysters.

No, I don't either. I really think they're so overrated and snobbish. And I hate that kind of upper class ownership over food. What should we put in the place of oyster then? The world is your... The world is your... Well, it can't be Pringle anymore. Gummy bear.

Haribo. I'm obsessed with Haribos. Well, it's your Haribo. That works. That was John Waite talking to us about his memoir, Dancing on Eggshells. Now, if you have been affected by any of the issues, then please do email feedback at times.radio and you'll be able to find help right there. So let's make a gear change.

Has your new Peugeot Peppermill arrived yet? It hasn't. Oh gosh. How are you coping? What are you using to grind the corns? I'll tell you what. I don't know why I made that ridiculous boast yesterday about the lentil bolognese cottage pie. How was it? I mean, no word of a lie. It did create wind. I mean, I know lentils are known for their wind manufacturing properties, but by God, it was really quite uncomfortable at moments during the night.

Anyway, the thing about lentil bolognese is it actually, I really do think it's quite tasty if you do it right. And with the combination of a very, very, well, I was going to say buttery topping. It wasn't buttery because it was vegan. With a potato topping. It was. It was very satisfying. It was a nasty sort of slightly chilly bordering on almost wintry night last night. So it was just the job and the after effects lingered a little too long.

But all in all, it was eight out of ten for the little chef here. I think I did pretty well. I don't really want to share a cab with you into the West End now. I might just get the tube. I'll go halves with you. Okay. And I'll sit. Do you want me to sit completely

the other side of the cab? If you can sit on the little swingy down chair and open the window, then I'll be very grateful. Okay. So we'll have showbiz tales to tell because Jane and I are off to Claire Balding's book launch. So she's written a new book called Isle of Dogs. Jane's making a face

in the studio, listeners, because it is a book about dogs, so your Dora gets a tiny mention and she did come and interview Nancy for a whole chapter, which you're already livid about. But it's a lovely chapter. It's about rescue dogs. It's about the karma of

adopting a midlife dog. And it is a beautiful thing. And she really loved Nance. Nance really loved her. They've kept in in touch have they excluded me from the friendship oh that's a very very happy tale no pardon at all intent I'll buy I'll do my duty I'll buy a copy of the book and hopefully they'll be there's a drink I'm sure they'll be drink done is it the drink I like I think it might be I think it might be but hopefully we'll see lots of...

We might see some ex-colleagues there. People have been invited to bring their dogs. So that's going to be fun. Oh, there are dogs. Yep, there'll be dogs. Oh, gosh, I'm afraid that reminds me of the People's Pet Awards. Oh, gosh. It's 13 months now since the People's Pet Awards.

So we weren't invited back. That means we weren't invited back to this year's. And we've had another blow because I read in the newspaper today something about the Woman of the Year lunch. We weren't invited to that either. Apparently that went on completely unencumbered by us earlier this week. It must have been rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

That's terrible, Jane. What have we done? What have we said? Perhaps I had wind that day as well. We were a hot ticket last year. Completely blown it. No, you... When was the last Women of the Year lunch you went to?

My God, there's a pattern forming here. We haven't been invited for years. This is dreadful. Absolutely shocking. Right. Well, at least Claire's invited us, I suppose. OK, right. So, Tales to Tell tomorrow.

It's Jane and Fee at Timestock Radio. Thank you for all of your lovely emails. We'd love to hear about your grannies and we'd love to hear about the lighter side of life. Do send stuff about the more serious side of life and we will put those in an email special. But we do appreciate all of the people who bothered to write in to say,

just keep us going a little bit. I dropped a T there, I don't know why. I don't know why you're trying to be all youth. A little bit of a laugh. So we aim to please. Well, I do. That's all you ever get here. Jane the Imperious.

A little bit of a laugh. A little bit. That's what we can guarantee. Okay, have a good evening. Goodbye. We'll check in tomorrow. Bye. well done for getting to the end of another episode of off air with jane garvey and fee our times radio producer is rosie cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe.

And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off-Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know good bank i know lady listener sorry