Off Air... with Jane and Fi - I've just got too many Allen keys (with Tiggy Walker)

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Today, Jane and Fi take a moment to think about the dark world of parenting before CBeebies. They also chat about skew-whiff black bin numbers, resignation Tuesday and the importance of being honest. Fi speaks to Tiggy Walker, patron of Carers UK, about her experience caring for her husband, Johnnie Walker. Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Hannah QuinnPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Stick your oven up to 180 and get busy with the old wooden spoon. Right, well, I think we know where you can shove your walnut balls out and your sunrise muffins. Hannah's just revealed that the studio was an absolute tip when we came in. And the person who's made a tip is traceable because they've also left a scent. And it's that horrible, can I just say, it's a rather cheap kind of smell. It's all very, it's very figgy and musky, isn't it? And cedar woody.

Yeah. So, well, all the evidence is pointing to... Who? I don't know. That's what i'm asking you now i don't know but my olfactory detective senses were on high alert so i'll get back to you when i've sniffed the person out oh god talking of which um we talked about 9 000 years ago about that stuff that you find in your cutlery drawer, cutlery chuff. It did strike me the other day that I am the proud owner of these new wheelie bins.

I mean, there is something. I'm really pleased when I go home and I see them. Well, I was. You won't be. No, no, I was. Now I'm angry and I'll tell you why in a sec. But there's already a gathering of bin juice at the bottom. What is that stuff?

Well, that just comes out of the little seepage hole in your black bin liner, doesn't it? Is that what it is? Because I tell you what, that's another good point. I cannot get a thick, properly resilient black bin bag. Do you know what, darling? I might actually bring you some in. Thank you.

Because I've been on this journey before. Now I've found my favourite. And the problem is, the thicker you go, the smaller the bag. That's it. So sometimes you end up with very, very thick kind of builder's sacks because you can only put so much rubble in. For rubble. I don't need the rubble sacks. Exactly. So I've been all the way to rubble and come back.

But I do, at the moment, my local shop, Cost Increases, we like to call it. It's a little bit expensive. Cost Increases. cost-increasers, we like to call it. This is a little bit expensive. Cost-increases, yes. They do sell the perfect thick, solid, big black bag. And I will bring you a roll because that is where our relationship has got to after 10 years of working together, Jane.

It's not 10 years, don't exaggerate. We did our first radio festival appearance thingy together in 2013 well it's gone in a flash you've certainly backpedaled there successfully more of that i hope i did uh anyway the reason i'm annoyed is i thought i'd because i saw other neighbors had done this they've gone out and got lovely white numbers for the bins oh yeah so i thought oh i'll do that i could do that but i'm not very good. I'm not very dexterous. And basically one of my numbers is just on such a slant.

Oh, it's going to annoy you forever. No, it is. Oh, God! And I try not to look at it. But one is just, there's a crinkle in it. It's slightly at an angle. I could kick myself. I really could.

I'm so cross. Because it's going to, you're right, it's going to be something that mildly irritates me for up to the next 15 years. I think you've just got to scrape it off and do it again, to be honest. I have got a spare one. Well, then do it. What if I get that wrong?

No, I think you will have learnt by your mistakes. Okay. Perhaps I could just do with some guidance and then if I have a wing woman with me, I might be able to do it your mistakes. Okay. Yeah. Perhaps I could just do with some guidance and then if I have like a wing woman with me, I might be able to do it. Well, what you really need is somebody with a spirit level. Don't you? I'll tell you what, now you're talking.

Do you think you have one of those? Might be able to conjure one up. Okay, have you got a street WhatsApp? We've got a neighbour. Okay, we'll put it up on the neighbourhood WhatsApp because there is all, I tell you what, the kind of person who has a spirit level handy is the type of person who wants to use it you're doing them a favor because every street is has has a keeper of the spirit level well it does

so if you know i find if if you were to put up on our street whats, I've run out of milk, does anybody have any? There'll be complete silence. But if you put up I need a 0.3 millimetre Allen key. They're all on it. Queuing up outside. We've all got Allen keys, haven't we? But can we ever lay our hands

on one where we actually need one? I've just got too many Allen keys. Yeah. Named after which member of the allen family oh i thought it was the key family so it's a joke god that was a really really lame joke right um now we live in interesting times who is our guest today though actually it's about a topic that i actually think is of huge significance yes so our guest is tiggy walker and she has found herself the full-time carer of her husband, who is the DJ Johnny Walker.

And Tiggy's story is just amazing, actually, because when her and Johnny first got married, they came back from their honeymoon, and Johnny knew that there was something a little bit wrong, and he was diagnosed with cancer. Tiggy cared for him then, And she then got breast cancer. Johnny cared for her. And now Johnny has a terminal lung condition. And she is back caring for him. She's so honest about the responsibilities and duties of caring.

And also about the ask it places on you when that's not your job. It's not what you chose to do in life. It's not what your skill set is it's sometimes incredibly difficult and both her and johnny are patrons of carers uk so they know a whole load about it and i think you'll just find it a really really uh interesting and uh insightful interview actually and she's just a terrific person well what's very admirable about her and lots of things is the fact that she doesn't sugarcoat it and nor does she steer clear of the fact that sometimes she finds it all too much and she has to get out and see some mates and play some tennis

um i think she doesn't she absolutely tells it as it is and i think that's really important and i really hope that as she says in the course of the interview perhaps because of the influence of the quite substantial number now over 70 of Lib Dem MPs in the Commons something will finally be done about social care and just improving the lot of carers. Yeah and we should explain to our often international audience why the Lib Dem caring policy is really significant. It's because the Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Ed Davey, has spent his lifetime caring for people. His mum was unwell and she was cared for by him. His wife has multiple sclerosis and his son has special

needs. So he is surrounded by the need to care for other people, really understands what that does to a life, is incredibly insightful about it. And you're absolutely right. I mean, it really was only the Liberal Democrats who put it high up the agenda in the latest general election campaign. Which is so crazy because we'll either all have to do it

or we'll be needing it. Yeah. It will touch your right. You're absolutely right. It will touch all of our lives. It's so crazy not we'll either all have to do it or we'll be needing it. Yeah. It will touch, you're right, you're absolutely right. It will touch all of our lives. It's so crazy not to talk about it more. And as we get older and, you know, the ageing population survives more illnesses, you know, younger and younger people are going to be asked to be carers as well. Yeah, well, there you go.

Anyway, I think that conversation will inspire a lot of emails from you. So make sure you do contact us on that subject or anything else you go. Anyway, I think that conversation will inspire a lot of emails from you, so make sure you do contact us on that subject, or anything else you fancy, janeandfee at times.radio. Have you read, because I'm halfway through it, Matthew Perry's book? Oh, well, yes, I read it

ages ago. Did you? Yes, well, when it first, when it's only memoir. It's out in paperback now and I was going on a train trip last week. I just needed something that I knew. I can't remember the title. It's called Friends, Lovers and the Big Terrible Thing. Yes.

And I wasn't... I mean, I wasn't a massive fan of Friends. I was kind of almost a bit too old when Friends first came out. Maybe I was, maybe I was distracted. I don't know what it was. I wasn't, you know, a huge fan at all. And I picked the book up because I just thought, oh, this will be readable and I've heard about it

and people say it's good. And I honestly think, talking about honesty, because I was thinking about Tiggy Walker, that Matthew Perry, the late Matthew Perry now, which makes the book even more poignant, really, really tells the truth about being an addict. And he is so, he's hard on himself. He really is. He absolutely owns it. And he is so, he's hard on himself. He really is.

He absolutely owns it. And I find it a really, really interesting read. I thought it was a fantastic book. And I honestly think that that man did more for the understanding of addiction as an illness than anybody else has managed to do. Because, and do you remember, there was a very famous ding-dong he had

with Peter Hitchens on Newsnight. Oh, yeah. because and do you remember there was a very famous ding dong he had with uh peter hitchens on news night oh yeah do you remember um where peter hitchens basically said you everybody has the capacity to make a choice so it is your choice to take the other drink after you've had one too many or to take a drink in the first place when you've been sober for a while and Matthew Perry just really kind of exploded with anger but a very very pinpointed laser explanation of why his head and his physiology was different and he just didn't have that choice and it really was an illness and I remember watching that thinking, oh, okay, I'm a bit challenged now because I really liked Friends and I really liked him. So I was keen to read his book when it came out,

but I think he just changed people's understanding because he was so capable of saying, I would like to be rid of this illness. You know, I don't want to be like this. I don't want this to be happening in my head. Oh, he hates it about himself. Yeah, and so he took you with him to be on that journey into what makes an addict.

I mean, as he says multiple times in the book, I'm sitting in my mansion with a view of the Hollywood Hills or whatever it is. He is living in paradise and he knows that there's no logic to the way he feels and he knows that other people will point to him and say you've got everything why are you behaving like this but he still can't he still can't beat it and it's really sad anyway that's cheered everybody up and it's honestly it's been a day of what we've called i mean i think we're slightly

shushing it up a day of political turmoil in wales well it's been resignation tuesday oh yes because the first minister of wales um has called it quits and so too has gareth southgate again if you're listening outside england uh you may not care about this but he's actually gareth southgate is the manager of england led them to defeat but in the final of a major tournament we should say. And some football fans have never liked the cut of his jib. And I don't really know why. Some football fans will never like the cut of any manager's jib. And then if they actually won the trophy, they'd still find something to be horrible about.

Do you know what? If England had won on Sunday, there'd still have been loads of people pointing to how badly they played earlier in the tournament and possibly even in the final. And there's even a part of me that thinks I might have been one of them. Anyway, there you go. But shut up, Jane, because you've just tried to be nice about Gareth.

And I do mean it. I think he's a decent human being. Let's turn to Andrew, who's got final thoughts about plumbing. Dear ladies, my listening being a day behind, I may be too late regarding plumbing. The word comes from the Latin plumbum for lead. We had learnt that, actually, Andrew. Maybe you've already caught up with that. I don't know. be too late regarding plumbing the word comes from the latin plumbum for lead we had learned that actually andrew maybe you've already caught up with that i don't know flat lead sheets were

made and rolled around a long cylinder as in a rolling pin and the long edges sealed creating a pipe this was carried out in the plumbery there was a very large one at salisbury cathedral the question of things being absolutely vertical or plumumb derives from the Roman plumb line. The weight at the end of the cord was lead and cone-shaped, so the point of the cone provided for an accurate mark. We have so many words from the Latin, whose derivation is so often forgotten or misused. A case in point being decimated,

which originally meant the slaughter of one in ten of either prisoners or a disgraced legion. Isn't that extraordinary? Wow. You were decimated it meant one intent i never knew that your paper revealed that many times readers object to its misuse now that surprises me andrew really surprises me but as was pointed out it is too late succinctly put as that ship has sailed my thanks to you for both providing constant entertainment

and the dilemma of how to end an email being ancient i was brought up with sincerely thus sincerely andrew andrew thank you pauline i did get your lovely card thank you very much indeed um it was extreme pauline was somebody who sent me a hand embroidered we're not talking anymore about the birthday, but birthday card. Oh, that's lovely. Pauline, thank you. Very nice.

Very nice indeed. This is from a listener who cannot be named because, as they put it, they still work in the industry. Listening to today's Monday the 15th pod and your chat of what to say to someone in a show you may not have rated, a wise actor once told me, I am definitely telling all my friends about this. That was a fantastic get out of jail card

on such occasions. There we are, that is a good one. It is a good one. Do you know what I have noticed actually a couple of my friends have done over the years is they just occasionally pretended not to have seen something that obviously they definitely did see. I've had a bit of that.

And that's really painful. We did actually just pointing that out. I've had a bit of that. And that's really painful. We did actually... Just pointing that out. I was just reminded of something else. I mean, we did talk about Strictly today. And, you know, in some ways, it's a sort of blessed relief to get away from American politics and talk about a dance show. Talk about bullying.

This is what I mean. But, of course, it isn't because it's actually a really serious story. It is a serious story. And, yeah, I mean, it's had lasting implications and impact on some of the contestants. Yes, and I'm interested to hear what listeners to Off Air think about Strictly, whether they, like me, are occasionally, I'm going to say slightly reluctant fans.

Last winter, I watched quite a lot of it because it kind of fitted in with my domestic circumstances. And it was entertaining and it was fun and it was a diversion. And I really appreciated it. During the pandemic, I was so glad they kept Strictly going. A place of safety, something to watch, something to chuckle at on a Saturday night. But we have always known, haven't we, because we've talked to people who've been on the show, people who've taken part as contestants have told us,

though not when they were officially being interviewed, about some of the manipulation that goes on behind the scenes there. Yeah, but also I don't think it's, well, it's definitely not breaking any secrets to say that they sign a contract that means that they show Strictly Come Dancing in a very positive way. That's part of the contract is to be an ambassador for the programme. And it's often there actually in all of our contracts, isn't it? Not just in showbiz world, you know, that you can't diss the company.

That's a completely fair thing to ask of somebody. If you're going to join the team, join the team. But I think what it has meant for Strictly is it's been incredibly difficult for contestants to say things that we now realise they should have been able to say. Absolutely. Which is that they were made to feel uncomfortable, they were pushed too hard by their dance partners. And in these cases, which are now emerging, there was really nasty physical and verbal abuse going on. And my heart goes out to Amanda Abingdon

because she's been brave enough to say what she experienced and her dance partner has denied the allegation, so that continues. But she has put her head above a parapet that has meant dreadful dreadful trolling yeah has been meted out to a lot a lot from women yeah which i find just i mean it shouldn't come from men either but you've got you've got to listen when women say these things but also jane for a bloody dance show so she's a really talented actress um personally i i you know i don't really rate the

go down that road of you know putting on sequins and and whatever uh but you don't deserve that you do not deserve that and it might haunt her for the rest of her life and it's definitely affected her mental health and that's really not fair it's really really really not fair so um yeah i mean the question really is can you invest emotionally in this show when it comes back although as we were discussing apparently they're having trouble getting female celebrities no no shit yeah who'd have thunk it yeah yeah i don't i went off it years ago when it stopped being full of funny people who were encouraging you to go on their journey with them to have a laugh. So, you know, the comedy characters who were in there

who were a little bit hoof-like on the dance floor and you knew that they were having a laugh doing it. I really enjoyed it when it was that kind of level and I don't think I would have wanted to take it past Ed Balls' Gangnam Style. Well, I think it might have been worse strictly. Absolutely hit a peak. Never to be revisited. Sarah is in South London, and we have made her sad with our conversation about trad wives. And actually, we'll probably make this the last one on the subject. I live in London. And although me and my husband both have decent salaries, the option of not returning to work when my kids were small was not an option. I live in London and although me and my husband both have decent salaries, the option of not returning to

work when my kids were small was not an option. I had a job in a bank at the time that I hated and would often cry all the way to work after dropping the kids off at my mum's for the day. I remember the night before going back to work after my first stint of maternity leave buying multiple scratch cards in the hope

of winning enough money to pay off our mortgage. Oh God. Oh Sarah, Sarah, let us give you a hug. Thankfully, after 25 years of working for the bank, I was made redundant, and I now look after other people's kids for a living. My kids are now 23 and 20. Well, Sarah, gosh, I mean, what a pickle. And that just says so much, doesn't it,

about choices and not having them and really wishing that you could and I hope it doesn't prowl in your mind too much you know the bits that you might have missed out on but you know I suspect that that probably is exactly what happens. So the trad wives on Instagram, you know, who are toting their, you know, their afternoons spent in linen, making walnut balls for their five-year-olds, whatever it is, you know, it probably sticks in your throat a bit. Walnut what? Walnut balls. When I was a younger mum,

I can't even remember the name of the person there was a chef who brought out a book of ideas for kids parties and one of the ideas was walnut balls and it was a source of amusement amongst a certain circle of mum friends you don't eat walnut balls your famous walnut balls

I've just got Mr kipling in all right yeah do me i remember once there was some really airy fairy incredibly luxey luxury luxury uh luxey um magazine that came out in maybe in my neck of the woods you know one of those magazines that's full of ads but has occasional occasional features and they distributed around areas. Anyway, this one was aimed at the young mum and there was one, they had some recipe pages. One was for something called sunrise muffins, which you were supposed to make with the kiddies, you know, when they woke up at about 5.30 in the summer.

Oh, dear God. You were just to make the most of it. That was what the article said. You couldn't, there's no good complaining. When they wake up at 5.30, take the little perishes downstairs, stick your oven up to 180 and get busy with the old wooden spoon. Right.

Well, I think we know where you can shove your walnut balls and your sunrise muffins. I do think... I used to feel almost tearful when they woke up before six o'clock. Oh, no, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

So I had a husband at the time. Really? He was such a beast. Really boasts sometimes. I know. Yes. I know. Well, as you know.

It didn't last long. But he used to leave for work. He had a terrible commute, actually. So he had to leave for work before 7 o'clock That's handy for him No, no, don't, no No, to give him his due, he was working really hard and he had to take a job miles and miles and miles

away from where we lived but we would have been, you know, the babies would have woken up at 5 o'clock and I'd say goodbye to him at about quarter to 7, knowing that he wouldn't be back until about 8.30 in the evening. And that morning bit, before the rest of the world has woken up. Oh, Jane.

And let me just say, this is in a time before WhatsApp. Oh, yes, no, you're right. So you couldn't. There was nobody to ping in in your chat group. No, no one. Things were really hard for us. And thank God we've now got this opportunity to talk about it. Well, the thing is, Jane, they were just very, very, very long days.

They were long days, yeah. Which is why I will always support a woman who finds herself in exactly that position. And I remember asking my own mum what she did with us when we woke up before seven o'clock half past six whatever time and she couldn't remember which i think well and some of it you blanked i think i think she quite literally had because those are the days without any form of morning entertainment just no idea what you had your kids before television i don't know but my mom did oh i see she certainly had us before

cbps yeah that's a terrible that's a very dark world to imagine i don't understand how you did parenthood before cbps sunrise muffins yes sunrise muffins and a walnut ball like beach nostril there we are right those are our parenting tips got you glad you tuned in right um i just wanted to do a little bit from Freestanding Baths and US Mermaids in the UK. This one comes from Pam, who was intrigued by your description of the freestanding clawfoot enamel-lined cast-iron tub

in your hotel room up in... I can't remember where you were now. I was in a little village called Kirby Fleetham. Very nice hotel, the Black Horse Inn. Lovely. And two Curly Whirlies. Two Curly Whirlies and a beautiful full English. Lovely.

Just two days ago, before I listened to the episode where Jane mentioned the tub in her hotel room, I told my husband that I would never, that's in capital letters, be getting rid of our tub and that in our dotage, we'd have to figure out a way to get in and out of it safely. We've probably gone through at least three telephone style water hoses, but my handy husband just keeps installing new ones. The tub is long and deep with a slope back end. And the best part is it keeps the water hot for hours. So excellent soaking water for a mermaid

like me. Recently I bought one of those bamboo shelf things that goes over it to hold a book or a magazine, a glass of wine, candle, razor or whatever. I can't believe I didn't get one of those 25 years ago. You can take my house, but you will never take my tub. And Pam goes on to say that when she was in the UK for a month, she went to one of the most magical places in your country,

the Kenwood Ladies Pond at Hampstead Heath. You're spot on. I've never been there. Have you not? No. Well, you should go. You would, on a really, really hot muggy summer's evening. When is that coming? Next year by the looks of it.

There is no greater pleasure in London than slipping into the dark green water of the Hampstead ladies pond it's a sensational thing Pam just wants to say the morning my husband left the airport my daughter and I hopped on a train

then a bus from the apartment not sure if I found out about this place from Fi or some other swimmer but oh my gawd it was glorious immediately I ordered this book when I got home and recorded the first essay for family members because it really captured how I felt about swimming in the pond. I still dream about our morning swim at the Ladies' Pond.

And the book that she's bought is called At the Pond, Swimming at the Hampstead Ladies' Pond. Can I also just recommend another one, which is by a man called Al Alvarez and it's called pond life and it's about his swim every day even through the winter in his 80s at the men's pond in hamstead and if you if you like your words and you like your prose and you like sometimes reading something a bit meditative then it's just a really beautiful book just about the joys of nature and the joys of swimming so thank you to Pam thank you Fi thank you Jane and now

let's bring in Tiggy Walker Johnny has for almost five years now had idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis which is a disease of the lungs where the lungs get worse and worse. And he's now sort of in the last stage of that in that he's not got much lung capacity left, which means he is basically, apart from being able to speak into a microphone twice a week, isn't really good for much else in that he's in a wheelchair, he's on oxygen 24-7, so he can't really do anything. So, I mean, he can, well, still go to the bathroom on his own, but he can't have a bath on his own. He needs me to help him dress and get undressed. He spends a lot of time in bed or else just sat in a chair. So his life is within the four walls of our home. And that means basically,

I am the person carrying the show completely. So it's a very, you know, it's a heavy duty caring role. He's not in any pain, which is a fantastic thing, but his capacity to breathe is so terribly low that any sort of effort really slams him. So he's very challenged in his everyday life. And that means, Tiggy, that you're very challenged in your everyday life as well, doesn't it? It really does, V. I'm extremely challenged and I'm, you know, I'm struggling with it. I've got to admit, he felt particularly ill. I mean, you know, his health fell off a cliff on the 1st of January, having done a live show, which was too much effort for him. And we now realise, but we didn't know beforehand that that would be the case. And he deteriorated so fast, so rapidly.

so fast, so rapidly, and suddenly there were so many medical people sort of giving him support around him that I must admit, Fee, I thought, God, if he makes his birthday at the end of March, he will have done really well. Well, here we are at the middle of July and Johnny is still going. And this has gone from being a caring sprint to a caring marathon in my eyes and it really it profoundly and utterly changes your life as a carer because you he is tied to those these four walls so am I I mean I of course I can go out I go out to do shopping I go out to do bits of tennis but fundamentally um he needs me or someone around especially just cooking meals or whatever, because if he went near the cooker, he'd probably explode because he's covered in so much oxygen from his oxygen cannula. Now, it's really hard for me. I think it's funny enough,

the physical side of things, I think are are fine, except that you I particularly am just absolutely broken with exhaustion now because it's a long day and I'm not sleeping very well. And I think the hardest thing is actually the mental side of it, because you're trapped in this unenviable position where you are looking after the person you love. You know, the person you love is going to die at some point, maybe in a couple of weeks, maybe in a couple of months. And you know you're going to miss them because you love them and you're going to be heartbroken. But you equally hate the situation that you are in, which is being trapped by this caring role. And it's pretty demanding. It's very tough. There's no sugar

coated way of saying it. It's a horrid thing to be caring for somebody. And just so many people are, and they are struggling as a result. I would imagine sometimes as well, Tiggy, it's just extraordinarily isolating and lonely, isn't it? Funnily enough, Fi, the first time I cared for Johnny, and I say the first because it had been several times, but when we first married and he had cancer, it was particularly bad and he nearly went, that was extremely lonely.

There was little awareness of the effort and the mental challenges for a carer. Now people are far more aware. And funnily enough, you know, I have just come off the phone to my local doctors and they're going to give me some counselling because I need it, because I'm sort of going to pieces a little bit. I'm crying too much. And that's sheer, I'm overwhelmed, really, with the with the situation.

And I think not knowing how long this situation will go on. We all want to know, don't we? We all want to know when things are going to happen and how and where and why. And you're in this position of not knowing anything. Every morning I come into Johnny, who's sleeping in a separate room because of his oxygen machine, which is very noisy. Every morning, I come in and my first thought with my cup of tea is, am I going to drop it because his body isn't moving? So that's, you know, that's your start to the day. And it is, I think it's this ability, this non-ability to be able to control your life because it is wholly in the hands of the person who you're looking after, which I'm right now finding very difficult.

I'm a woman who likes to get things done. I like to go and achieve things and I've had to put my life on hold. And slightly you do think, well, how long am I putting my life on hold for? And the sad thing is that when I get my life back, Johnny won't be there, who is the person I love to share my life with. Yeah. So you're dealing with it from all sides, aren't you? I'm really interested, Tiggy, in your honesty, actually, about that situation, looking after someone who is terminally ill because you can't possibly spend every minute in your head uh thinking I'm saying goodbye I'm saying goodbye I mean there must be times when you just get annoyed with somebody I mean as you would do living with somebody on a daily basis so how how does that change how How do you cope with the mundane in the face of something actually enormously profound?

We do talk about the profound side of it quite a lot. We're lucky that both Johnny and I have a belief in the spirit going on, which is a great comfort. I mean, I had a session with a medium recently to help me. And while she couldn't give me any information, she did say they're making Johnny a beautiful garden up there. So it may sound nuts to a lot of people, but there we go. But I'm able to say to Johnny, don't worry, darling, you've got a beautiful garden to go to.

And that may sound a little bit pathetic, but somehow it brings us both comfort, that thought. The mundane is funny enough, the easy bit to get through. It really is. And on the more profound scale, I mean, we do have those moments of tenderness, especially at bedtime when I get him ready for bed, when Johnny can often get upset and say, thank you for all you're doing for me. He does realise what a burden it is on me and what a sort of sacrifice of my existence. And he does realise that the fun life we have shared together has gone. I suppose the truth of it, though, Tiggy, is that none of us know whether we would be good carers until we find ourselves in the position of caring.

And just because you really, really love somebody, it doesn't mean that you're going to be very capable of caring for them. So I wonder, given all of your life experiences with Johnny, what your advice would be to people who might suddenly be finding themselves in a caring position and thinking, I just can't, I can't do this, actually. It's just not me. Well, I think the most important thing is you do have to have some little outlet for yourself. I mean, for me, it's early morning tennis or yoga, which I go to several times a week before John is even up.

So I take him in some breakfast. I disappear and go and do my physical thing. Tennis, I just laugh my socks off. And that probably is what's keeping me going. I think that so some sort of physical outlet for people, I think is really, really important. I think if you feel you're going under mentally, talk to somebody. I think today, GP surgeries are so much better equipped. They're so much more aware of what the carer is going through, that I do think, you know, you can stretch out

for some help. Personally, V, I went on antidepressants two months into this, because I was getting so overwhelmed, and somebody suggested it was a good idea. And I went, well, that's such a loser thing to do. I'm not depressed, I'm just overwhelmed. But funnily enough, it has supported me so very much. Anything to try and keep yourself as balanced as you can. It's really important because if you start going under, the caring becomes more difficult. You feel more angry about it and you have got to try and stay on top of it and relish the time you have left with that person you are looking after. What would help in terms of the system changing? Because I know lots of people will be listening

who have caring responsibilities and they often tell us that they are really made to feel like they are fighting against a system to get whether it's respite care or whether it is counselling or whether it's just more money sometimes as well, changes in the home, you know, those kind of things seem to be very problematic. I think it possibly depends where you are. I don't know if you're aware, but every year Carers UK do a state of caring report where they interview all the carers, members of Carers UK. And certainly this year, 42% of carers said they needed more support from the NHS or healthcare professionals. So it definitely is an issue because again, 79% of

carers say they feel stressed or anxious and half are depressed. So it is, I think, more funds have to be allocated so that all GP surgeries can give that sort of support to carers. And carers shouldn't feel guilty about asking for that support. They didn't ask to be in this situation. They're sacrificing their lives. They're giving up their normal lives to do a job they never asked to do. So of course, they need to be supported. As for the carer's allowance, I believe it's £81 a week. Many, many people will have given up working to become a full-time carer. I'm lucky because the things I do, I can do from home. It's £81. That covers about three hours of bringing in a carer. So you can have a bit of respite. It's absolutely nothing. And, you know, there was that awful situation recently where certain

carers, because they earned over £150 a week, were having to pay back thousands of carer support that they had received, which was absolutely iniquitous. So I hope that the new government will look at the caring situation and give people far more support because, honestly, unpaid carers are saving the NHS £162 billion a year. It's huge, V, it's absolutely huge. Do you feel that the new government will be extending a hand to carers that might not have been there before? I don't know, Fi. I really don't. They've got a lot of things to sort out. I can only assume that they Lib Dems made it such a core of their policy and did so well in the election, I think that that is a very good sign. And I think they will be putting pressure on the new government. So I am an optimist in life.

So I sincerely hope they will. I don't suppose it will be top of Keir Starmer's agenda. There are a lot of other things that are very, very important that need to get sorted. But I certainly hope caring will be one of those issues. And I'm absolutely certain that Carers UK, Emily Holtzhausen at Carers UK is such a fantastic person at campaigning for carers that if she can't get them to take more action, then no one can. Are you and Johnny still listening to a lot of music at the moment? And does music still bring Johnny a lot of joy? Obviously, that's what we know and love him for. I mean, I have to say, Tiggy, it's one of the privileges of my career that I worked in the same radio station as your husband

because he was just rock legend in human form from the extraordinary knowledge he had about music, the absolute joy he had in playing it, the leather trousers, the motorbike, just the works, Tiggy. Rock and roll. The most, yeah, I would say the sad thing is at the moment, Fee, that music isn't playing a huge part of our life.

It is for his show. I mean, he records Sounds of the 70s tomorrow. So today he starts listening to tracks and music and asking me for ideas of tracks. And that's when it starts. But it's not an everyday part of our lives. I mean, Johnny's gone slightly into a little bubble. He has his ear pods on all day, listening to people like Yuffie.

And he listens to Times Radio a lot. You will be delighted to hear. We are, actually. We're tickled pink that he's in our listenership. But he does very much. He's going into himself. And but he does very he's he's going into himself. So he's listening to audio books, podcasts, radio, reading the papers from cover to cover.

So he's kind of going into a little world of his own, which I'm sure is not a unique thing with somebody at this stage. But that's why, you know, so occasionally I do feel like a servant because if I try and talk to him, he's listening to something. But he can do whatever he wants, frankly. But in terms of the most rock and roll Johnny gets is every now and then he goes through a phase of saying, I want an Irish coffee before I go to bed. And he seems to have taken up the odd fag thing again, which he shouldn't do because he's on oxygen. He could explode.

But he has to go outside the house. And so I think that's just Johnny trying to keep his rock and roll lifestyle going. Tiki Walker. And I know that loads of you listening will want to send her and Johnny lots and lots of love. And I know that you'll have thoughts and all of your own experiences about caring are very gratefully received on this podcast. We are really happy to share. Yes, I thought that was a really interesting conversation and an important one.

So my thanks to Tiggy as well. Please do join us tomorrow. The guest tomorrow is Mary Beard. I mean, there's simply no one better when it comes to the subject of Roman emperors. And that will be our topic tomorrow. We will be being very erudite indeed. And you will be able to say to her,

Mary, did you know? Do you know what decimated means? Yes, I'll teach her a thing or two, actually. She must be longing to catch up with me. Good evening. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fi. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live,

and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury

and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.