Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Jane goes it alone - with Christine Flack

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Fi isn't feeling well so Jane's flying solo for this episode. Christine Flack speaks to Jane about her daughter, the TV presenter Caroline Flack, who took her own life in 2020 at 40 years old. If you���ve been affected by anything discussed in this interview, please email [e-mail] and you’ll be sent a list of resources. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, it's just Jane here tonight. Well, it's tonight in London. It could be any old time, wherever you are, couldn't it? I'm very aware of that. Fee was very plucky. She came into work today, but she just had that, I'll be honest with you, slightly green around the gills look about her. So she did help me out with one interview that we recorded earlier, which you'll be able to hear tomorrow.

And that's with Dr. Nicola Fox, who's head of science at NASA. And that was really interesting. And what was great was that Nicola sat there in Washington, D.C., wearing a really, really nice NASA white tracksuit top, really nice NASA white tracksuit top, which both Fi and I, and Fi, even in her poorly state, we both really wanted this top that Nicola was wearing. And then Nicola did tell us that she hadn't even been given it. She had to buy it from the NASA shop.

So obviously a little bit careful over at NASA with their resources. You would have thought the head of science would get a free top, but no. Anyway, you can hear what Nicola thinks about her job at NASA with their resources. You would have thought the head of science would get a free top, but no. Anyway, you can hear what Nicola thinks about her job at NASA and how she got it on the podcast tomorrow. But in a way, the fact that Fi isn't here today means that we can just get straight into today's interview on the programme, which is very serious. And I should say right at the start that there are some sensitive subjects discussed during

the course of the conversation so if this is something that you're not in the mood for or perhaps it's a little bit too close to home then I would absolutely understand if you don't want to hear it. But today I spoke to Christine Flack who's the mother of Caroline Flack, the TV presenter, the very successful TV presenter who took her own life in the February of 2020 when she was 40. Now, the previous December, Caroline had appeared in court to plead not guilty to a charge of assault after an incident at her home involving her partner, a man called Lewis Burton.

Now, the Crown Prosecution Service had recommended that Caroline should get a caution, but the Metropolitan Police appealed and charged her with assault by beating. The Met were ordered to apologise to Caroline's family after a review by the Independent Office for Police Conduct. And that apology is not something that Caroline's family are in any way satisfied with. So just to reiterate again that this discussion involves sensitive subjects and mentions of suicide and mental health issues. And I will give you more details of support available at the end of the interview. I put it to Christine that Caroline was somebody who,

well, somebody who everyone noticed when she walked into a room. Everybody said that. And even at home, if she'd come home for the weekend, your life was turned upside down. You were laughing. You were, you know, always having to do something. She wasn't one that really just sat there or, you know, there was always... And her friends have told me since, you know, if she walked in the room,

whether it be a club or one of their homes that was it you know you'd laugh or you'd they'd be up to something something was going to happen something was going to happen yeah some people in life are like that they enter a room and make things happen yeah yeah yeah and she was a twin uh and so her twin sister jodie um it must be especially tough for her all this i think yeah and you know that that's something I don't even know, how bad it is for Jo. And she gets... But she has her family. She's got three little girls.

And it's also hard for them because Carrie was so close to them. They used to call her Auntie Safe because she was the one who'd say, Jo, don't let them do this, don't let them do that. But they'd always go to her you know and so the whole family really um yeah it's it's hit them hard twins but very very different as personalities oh totally different tell me a bit more about what they were like um just one example was like when they were at school joe would do everything that was sporty um outward you know um walking running everything um they did the duke of edinburgh and joe did it for a few years carrie went what to one session

that was enough she was you know um so so different she was she was into her you know um music and everything else. So that performance, Jean, was very much apparent from the start. Oh, yeah, yeah. They went to a lovely little village school and the headmaster would let them put on assemblies. Did this surprise you or is it all in the family? No, it surprised me because my oldest two, you know,

are really quite quiet, especially my oldest daughter, you know, are really quite quiet, especially my oldest daughter. You know, she's very quiet. So this was, yeah, I think two of them, they gave each other strength. And Jo would always go along with whatever Carrie wanted to do. So she'd always join her in doing it. So it wasn't a surprise to you or the rest of the family when Caroline went to stage school when she was quite, quite young.

She did. She went at 16. Yeah, she did. That was all she wanted to do. Jo went off to uni to study broadcasting, but Carrie didn't. She just wanted to train at dance school. Yeah, singing, acting. And did you have any concerns about that as a future career for her? No, not at the time. I thought it was lovely. And I think you learn that, especially because I'd had two children

and then I had the twins, that let them do what they want to do in life. If you can afford it and if you can back them, let them do it. So they both, you you know chose their paths and that's it and she you know she was happy and she did well yeah and and were you at any time aware that even then perhaps her her mental health was not was not the greatest yes yeah I must say that even as a little girl she'd have really big highs and then she'd be so down or cry, you know, and you didn't know why. And then when she was at dance school, she did have a really bad time.

Then she got over it and it used to come mostly with breakups. it it used to come mostly with breakups um you know and and i think also with she had really bad pmt yeah and but it wasn't it it was something that was people would say oh that's silly you know it's well it was nothing to go but she really did suffer with that at its worst that can have the most ungodly impact on how a woman feels. Yeah. And you'd know because something small would really trigger something in her. And then a few days later, it'd be all right. She'd go, oh, all right now.

Yeah. And, you know, then she'd be back to her old self again. But rejection from other people, and everyone goes through breakups, but that was something that was always a really tough thing for her to cope with very much so yeah what did she say to you about it um she wouldn't say a lot really um she'd just go into herself and you'd just worry about her because maybe she wouldn't answer the phone so So I'd go around there, which was quite difficult because I was in Norfolk. But it didn't take long to drive to her and just make sure she was all right. By the time I got there, she said, Mum, what are you doing?

And Jo was there all the time. Jo lived quite near her, so she'd talk to her every day. And then she'd get over it and she'd make a joke about it. But it was that... it was she'd put all her trust in someone if she really liked someone that was it and then if you're let down she took it so hard she did so well though and her success in show business was I mean stratospheric I mean she was a name that every person of a young age would know because she was on television with Olly Murs, The X Factor Show,

and then she did Love Island, of course. I mean, she was really properly out there. As her mum, was that something you were really, frankly, worried about because you knew that the real Caroline was a rather different person to the one that we all saw on the screen? the time you know it was lovely because i knew she was doing something she loved and and you know but just at times and i could see i she was on television once doing an interview and i could just see she wasn't right you could you could you knew how she answered questions how she was that she wasn't. And that's when you got worried.

But there was no way she would, you know, do anything else. I couldn't see her doing anything else. No. So the career path to which she was totally suited ultimately was unsuitable for her, wasn't it, really? Yeah. And I think that's the same for a lot of people in in in that business um and it's they say it's acceptable and they say i'll talk about it it's acceptable but it isn't what what do you mean what isn't acceptable if the having um sort of depression at times, and it's picked on as something else, and especially being a girl or being a woman.

You know, I think of... I don't know, I can name names, but I don't like to today, but the other girl or women that used to talk to her and said, look, Carrie, it's going to be like that and but you have to just go with it you mean the double standard the fact that women have to be better people uh than some men who are in the same world they're so much easier to pick on and they don't realize what hurts i remember once once in one outfit and they were, oh, is Caroline Flack pregnant? Would they say that about a man or say how he looked or what his hair was like?

And those things, although silly, and to me, I think, well, don't worry about it, but she would worry about it and I think lots of the girls would worry about it. Were you aware that she was perhaps paying too much attention to social media and what people some very vindictive things that she'd be on her phone all the time especially after the court case it was you couldn't stop looking at it she looked at it the whole time and there were some really nasty things and in the papers um you know and people believe what they don't and there's no way to go

against it there's no way to come out I really wish that I could have I had the sort of bravery to come out then and do what I'm doing now but I couldn't but now I think well there's nothing to lose I've lost the most important thing in my life. So it can't hurt me now. But at the time, and she was saying, oh, mum, don't say anything. It's all going to be all right, you know. But it wasn't. Some of the relationships she had were incredibly public. And she was at one point, I think relatively briefly, going out with Prince Harry. And in his memoir, Spare, he has talked about that. And actually, he's apologised for the fuss that he caused your family just by that relationship with Caroline.

But you must have been concerned at that point that this was just getting a little bit out of control and just too high profile. Yeah. But again, it was more of a friendship. And I knew about it. You you know he visited my other daughter he was a nice lad and it didn't go any further because of that it wasn't you know they knew that it was never gonna anything was gonna happen but he's a nice and he kept in touch with her and she kept in touch with him and um she knew that you know he he absolutely loved Megan, or loves, you know, and so I don't think that was a bad thing. I would never say that was a bad thing in her life.

No. Well, that's good to know. And have you read the book? I haven't. I've read some of what he's written about her, because it's there, but I haven't read the whole book. Well, he's very positive about her. And, you know, and she was about him. And I can't say anything different to that. My guest this afternoon is Christine Flack, who is the mother of Caroline Flack.

Now, Christine, we are going to talk now about what happened to Caroline. And she was involved in, well, you can tell us in your own words what happened. She was going out with a man called Lewis Burton. And they'd been on a night out. They hadn't been out together they've been out separately and um they met back at carrie's house he used to say at carrie's house and um he fell asleep he was very drunk carrie was drunk they'd had and um she his phone went off and it was a text from a woman and she said, went to wake him up because she'd got her phone in one hand, his in another,

went to wake him up and he got up and hit his head. This is what she told me anyway and an argument got out of hand and he phoned the police. And what she'd done, she'd cut her wrist very badly down to the muscle. Was that something she'd done before? No, no. So she was in great distress? Yeah, because she knew if he phoned the police, that was it.

And I don't think he realised what her life was like with press and everything else, the media. And I think she was begging him not... And he did, anyway, that's what happened. He phoned the police. And on the way, then he started seeing that Carrie was really so hurt. He told the police and they phoned an ambulance and the ambulance came to the flat. And that incident completely changed her professional life.

Well, in fact, she didn't have a professional life after. Nothing after that. No, nothing. How quickly did everything just fall apart? Days, just days. She was she was you know everything was cancelled um even before she went to um the hearing the first hearing everything was cancelled now the crown prosecution service we now know had advised that caroline receive a caution yes what. What did Caroline think about that? Was that something she could have dealt with? Oh, yeah, because when the police arrived at her house,

it's been reported that it was a bloodbath. That was all Carrie's blood. Because she'd cut herself. Because she'd cut herself. That was never reported, that it was Carrie's. A picture was taken of it by her boyfriend, and he sent it to another girl who sent it to the press. Right.

And that, I think that was the last straw. When she found that out, that was the last straw. She couldn't believe anyone could do that to her. And the police then, they had to take her to hospital, but instead of letting her go home and her going back the next day, they took her then straight and put her in a cell for nearly 24 hours. And her twin sister waited outside the police station. They wouldn't let her in to see her for eight hours.

What did you know about this at the time? They phoned me straight away. Jodie phoned me and she said, it's all right, my mum's here. And she was the first one to say, look, they're just cautioning her. So don't worry, because I would have gone straight there, as it was.

I went in the morning because this was all overnight. But by the time I started to go, Jodie said, oh, they've changed their mind. A policeman came out and said, oh Jo said oh they've changed their mind a policeman came out and said oh no they've changed their mind there's a policeman in there well it turned out to be a policewoman who said she'd let someone go before

and didn't want that to happen again I've since found out it was the very very first time this policewoman had ever challenged a CPS decision and I've only found that out in the last few weeks Right I do have a statement from the Metropolitan Police which I just think I should read at this point had ever challenged a CPS decision. And I've only found that out in the last few weeks. Right. I do have a statement from the Metropolitan Police, which I just think I should read at this point. Our thoughts and sympathies remain with Caroline Flack's family for their loss, and we are sorry for the impact this has had on them.

When a person is arrested, they can be held in custody for a period of up to 24 hours to allow officers time to gather evidence and investigate the alleged offence. The person is allowed legal representation and an appropriate adult is provided if necessary. A review by the Independent Office of Police Conduct did not identify any misconduct in relation to the handling of Caroline Flack's arrest. However, it concluded that one officer involved in the investigation should get reflective practice. And our reflective practice is jargon i assume

for training the thing is they say in there they've even said it in there that's wrong it was evidence they collected no evidence they had no they didn't go back as it was an evidential led case they didn't go back to the flat and get any evidence nothing and even the person that persisted in um her being prosecuted asked someone else to look at the body cam asked someone else to read the notes she'd done nothing and why they can't tell me much was because no statements were taken from caroline or lewis and nothing was written down by the police people. The one policeman that went to the house and then went back has now left the force, and he's refused to give a statement. So the police apology, as far as you're concerned, is worth...?

It's nothing, because they didn't... They looked into it themselves, and I've got the letter with me. It says there was nothing wrong. That's why I went to the IOPC. All they could investigate was the police's investigation. And they found that it was lacking. So that statement is not correct. It was found lacking in many parts.

Even the coroner said Caroline had been treated differently. And the matrix used to go back to the cps was incorrect we we know now because this is 2019 we should say we know now rather more about the metropolitan police than we did yeah back then and we know a lot more about how they treat women i know this is a very different case to some of the awful incidents and crime murders that we've and rapes that we've talked about involving police officers but do you think this is another example the metropolitan police not treating a woman properly or fairly oh it's totally totally wrong i'm my partner is ex-met for many years and the

whole time he's saying that they can't do that they can't no they can't do that even the duty sergeant could have said to her go home they have 14 days to charge her and it and again in the iopc report it says it looks like the police detective that was on wanted to wrap it up so they kept her yeah i mean it's not for me to make the mets case except i suppose i'm i'm honor bound to point out that the Met have got to take domestic abuse seriously. We all believe that. And maybe they felt that they had to take this case involving, happened to involve an alleged female. But she wasn't charged with domestic abuse.

She was charged with common assault. Right. Which is the same as having a fight in the street or a pub. It wasn't domestic abuse. And that's one of the things that she was labelled a domestic abuser. You know, she was five foot nothing and he was six foot five. That doesn't mean anything. If she had a gun, she could have shot him.

But he only had to put his hand out and she couldn't do anything. And what about the way she was treated by the people she was working for at the time um it sounds to it seems as though their lack of interest in her all of a sudden was exactly that it was she just lost her job that's it it'd gone love island was gone she'd got another um show series that she'd already taped that was ready to come out in a few months that was cancelled um the people she worked with were amazing and a lot of them are the people that put on flak stock um that we're right you know we had last year and we're doing again this year the producers and the the you know all the crew were amazing and they they still are and they are to me as well i think that must be hugely

comforting to you that those people who knew her and work with her have stayed absolutely absolutely loyal yeah they have they've been yeah amazing group of friends yeah well i hope that i hope that does give you comfort your life though has been utterly changed by this hasn't it i mean completely i don't suppose for one minute you want to be here um talking like this there's a it your life goes on but it's not the same it'll never be the same you know because caroline's not in it or anyone that's lost a child or anyone it's just it changes it it and for no reason um and it's even worse to think i don't know how she must have felt that day that she hung herself because that isn't an easy that's not an easy choice it's not an easy thing to do no i mean once again i

really want to say to people who've been upset by all of this um that this is an extremely difficult thing for you to talk about and it's a i don't know how you put one foot in front of another every day christine and i imagine there are lots of other people listening you also want to say how sorry we all are about what happened um and i just wonder whether you think that itv could have done more i mean they have we don't want to mention any names i know you won't but they have stuck by some other television presenters um you know and they've been dogged in their support of them. Totally, totally.

And that's what makes you angry. You're sad because you've lost, you know, your daughter, but you get angry, and that's what is hard for me. I'm always angry when I see things or hear things, you know. And I don't want to be. You know, this world, it doesn't seem a very nice place at the moment. And especially for women, it really doesn't. You must have so many happy memories of Caroline, though.

Oh. She was a joy-bringer. She was. And she'd take us everywhere. You know, if she was doing something good, she'd take one of us or, you know, and the kids. They were all involved in her life. She didn't, you know, she phoned me every single day. Sometimes it was really good, sometimes it was really bad.

She'd run you anyway. Yeah, as I answered the phone, you could tell by, you know, Mum, you'll never guess who I'm with or Mum, oh, this is something. But she took us along with her, and she did have a lovely life, and that's why I don't want to put other girls off doing what they want. And her main, the best thing ever was when she was in Chicago, and the whole family went in one go to watch her, and it was just a wonderful memory.

And she won strictly. She won strictly, yeah. Yeah, she did, you know, she did some wonderful things and if she'd have been a different type of person, she may have got over this, I don't know, but she couldn't. And that was Christine Flack, the mother of the TV presenter Caroline Flack. Now, if you have been affected by anything discussed in that conversation,

please do email feedback at times.radio and you'll be sent a list of resources to support you because I appreciate that there was a lot of material in the course of that conversation that, let's be honest, is deeply upsetting. And those of us who only knew Caroline via her television work obviously knew just a tiny aspect of her personality and it's it's so so very different when you hear often of course from people's mums in particular because they always know the real person what they were actually like and what they went through so our best wishes do go to Caroline Flack's family,

in particular her mum, who I think, as you'll agree if you heard that, comes across as such a nice woman. So I hope that in some way the conversation she's now having in public about Caroline bring her some sort of closure and a degree of comfort and perhaps a change in the way let's be honest female television personalities famous women are perceived and treated because there is no doubt um it's significantly harder uh to be a woman in the public eye particularly uh at the level of fame that caroline flack had uh than to be a man um it's just very much harder. I just wanted to briefly mention a couple of your emails.

This is from a listener, I don't think we need to give her name, who just says, I was listening to your interview with Elizabeth Day. Could you at some point have a grief psychologist on your programme to discuss what happens when a good friend dies? I like to think I'm a bit of an expert on grief, as a fair few family members have died. My brother when he was only 10, my lovely mum when she was just 52 and then my dad fairly recently and I've navigated these horrific events fairly well or so I thought. Then last month completely

out of the blue a close friend died and it's completely floored me. I've actually made an appointment to see a therapist for the first time in my life. It's like the floodgates have opened and all the grief has poured out of me. She was close in age to the age that my mum was when she died and I keep seeing myself in her daughters and I'm grieving for what I've lost. A friend who knew me so well.

I sometimes find it hard to breathe as I think about her dying and her deafening absence. I know the immediate family is grieving their massive loss and quite rightly the sympathy is directed at them but for the outer circle of friends they now need to navigate a new world where there is a big empty space. I think that's a really good point and perhaps that's something we could cover on the programme. The idea that when a friend dies, it's a very particular sort of grief and it can be extraordinarily painful and personal.

So we'll see if we can do exactly that. And thank you very much for that suggestion and you are very welcome to make suggestions. Now, Fi made the point yesterday that it's actually really difficult to find a funny, good novel. I mean, it's true. It's so easy to write a book about abject misery. And let's face it, lots of people do it.

But it's significantly harder to write a comic book. You know what I mean? A comedic book. And Una says, Thank you. And this from Anonymous. Just heard Jane mentioned the Ellie Griffith series of books. Yes, I do love those. I love them, too, says Anonymous. They're quite a light read, despite the alarming number of murders for such a small area of Norfolk. But there's something real about Ruth, the archaeologist. Yeah, I agree. And I think that's why I like the books. She's got cats, wears loose black clothes, adds colorful scarves scarves i really can't

speak colorful scarves because to quote the books even fat people can buy scarves i would recommend for something easy when life is a bit stressful i mean when is life not a bit stressful it's always stressful isn't it but i totally take your point anonymous um i love those books too they are a sort of uh literary place safety, aren't they? Because you kind, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you kind of know what's coming. But, and by the way, the character at the centre of events, Ruth the archaeologist, she's not without admirers.

She, yes, absolutely. It's all happening out there in rural Norfolk where the murder rate is through the roof. Dear Jane and Fee, thank you for the interesting interview yesterday with Alice Wynne, says Judith. My grandfather and step grandfather were also both at Marlborough College and each ended up at the very tail end of the First World War in different locations due to being just slightly younger than the boys that Alice researched, researched and wrote about. And isn't that, it's amazing, isn't it? That it's a total accident of

birth. If you were born in, I don't know, 1880, actually you might have fought in the first world war. If you were born in 1870, you would have been probably all right. And if you were born in 1905 you probably would have been all right but either side of it um you might have been in real trouble in other words you would have had to join up and actually something that we didn't have time to mention in Alice Wynne's book was the white feathers that women would routinely hand out to men they saw in the street if they were not wearing uniform and that is something that's a very poignant detail of her book. Judith goes on to say in the cases of my grandfather and step-grandfather the two 18 year olds seem to have had a lot of luck in their timing and experiences. My grandfather joined the Indian army, sailed across the Med in

1917 to join his regiment in North Africa. Twice his ship was torpedoed and he was rescued from the sea. Then later he was part of a brutal battle against the German and Turkish armies in Palestine, where just one person in ten survived. His dear family letter details the reality and aftermath of the battle, too gruesome to share, but the letter ended up in the imperial war museum says judith whereas my step-grandfather joined his regiment in 1918 went to france and belgium marching across northern europe to the front in november that year

when they were due to engage in a big battle the exact day before the war ended so his experience was being with the first soldiers that entered the newly liberated town where the people went absolutely mad with joy at seeing us, he wrote. He documents in his letter what marvellous English his host spoke, learning from old English books and being invited to seat yourselves, bold sirs, the maiden will bring you wine wow i mean that's a very emotive emotive sentence isn't it the interview with alice brought home that my grandfather's school days would have been marked by all the announcements of the deaths of their older peers and yet both eagerly set off for their respective battlefields um judith that's

really that's food for thought isn't? And thank you very much for telling us about your step-grandfather and your grandfather. And we love getting your emails. We love hearing about your families, your experiences, what you're cross about, whatever. We don't care. So please do keep getting involved. It is janeandfee at times.radio

and join both of us, I hope, tomorrow, if you can. Have a good night. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer.

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