Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Jane the Imperious (with Iain Dale)

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

Jane the Imperious and Fi attempt to measure the satisfaction they get from theirs jobs... what can go wrong? They also discuss evening routines, dog walking dates and quiet quitting. Plus, they're joined by broadcaster Iain Dale to discuss his new book 'Kings and Queens: 1200 Years of English and British Monarchs'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Hugo Chambre Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let's not overcrowd our tiny, tiny little lady minds with that. Too much. Way too much. She's talking about Thursday. It's only Monday, Jane. Put Ian's book down. I know this is a really good bit here. I'd never heard of, and I'm i'm sure i mean the gentleman is long since deceased so he's not around to challenge it i don't know how to pronounce this svain forkbeard

was a king between 10 13 and 10 14 so he didn't really for a minute just just for a minute just before just before tea break on a tuesday morning No, just for a year. Yeah. And that's not the really interesting thing. It's the fact that he, we don't know how many people he was married to, but he was certainly married to a woman called Sigrid the Haughty. Wow. I think I've met her. So if you could attach a... Sigrid the Haughty.

An adjective to your name, what would you be? I was just thinking that. It's a shame in a way that that's all died out. But what would you be? I was just thinking that it's a shame in a way that that's all died out but what would you be? Jane the Imperious yes I think you would

yeah well and what about you? I don't know I think it's a little bit like nicknames you shouldn't actually choose your own so I wait with trepidation

to open the email inbox tomorrow morning if you've got any ideas you can send them off to jadeandfee. Yeah, but you're right. Because I, you know, so if you want to get on your high horse about having to have your dad's name or your husband's name or whatever it is, we are, we get our paternal name, don't we?

Or a patriarchal name in this country. Maybe we should return to just using adjectives. I think Eve would be Eve the Glorious because she's just always, she's always a rare sunshine, isn't she? She is, she's lovely. I can tell you're on holiday next week. I am on holiday next week.

Where's all this love coming from? That's because I've had a long weekend. That's very nice. I always come in on Monday with love in my heart. By Thursday, I've been flattened. Right, can we just say something actually quite serious about the news? Because we did have an email from somebody who minded about the fact that we haven't really talked about world events. So Alexa says, very nice things by way of an introduction in her email

and goes on to say, I'm a 37-year-old British-Israeli woman married to an Israeli who grew up close to Tel Aviv. I'm curious as to your complete refraining from mentoring the war between Hamas and the IDF. Other than a passing comment that the cute photo of Fee's dog and cat is much needed this week, there's been no mention at all. The deafening silence of many friends and colleagues on the events devastating our lives is frightening and levels of anti-Semitism are rising above and beyond the surface. My older son goes to a Jewish, predominantly Israeli school, and things are terrifying on a daily basis. Many fathers have been conscripted back to Israel to fight in Gaza

in the coming days, leaving wives and children not knowing if and when they will return. I understand that Offair has a focus other than focusing on world trauma, but there is no way you would not have mentioned the war in Ukraine, or I'm sure, something on this scale relating to any other conflict. So I do hope you'll explain why there's been no allusion to events in Israel and the extent of the terror now instilled in many of your listeners. I look forward to your explanation with interest. So our explanation is. Well, actually, I'm not sure I've got an explanation, except I suppose I made, I think we probably both make the assumption that people come here as a kind of an alternative, a place of safety where all sorts of difficult things can be discussed. But of course, having said that, we are contradicting that if we don't mention it, I guess and my explanation would be that after we've done a two-hour news-based show which is

what we do here on Times Radio between three and five in the afternoon I think both you and I probably feel that we need to head to the slightly less newsy type topics because that is what makes the difference between the show and the podcast but I completely take your point Alexa that also if you haven't listened to the two-hour radio program so like today I think 90% of what we talked about was to do with the conflict in the Middle East and we do try really hard to have a balanced selection of guests and to give those guests enough time actually and probably more time than they get on other radio stations to tell us things that we need to know.

So we've done that a lot and just forgive us, actually. It's not because we don't care about the situation. It's not because we're not interested. And it's not because we don't think it's our job to do anything but entertain with clothes pegs and pepper mills and stuff. It's just how it happened actually last week. Any emails from any of our listeners that you think would bring some kind of understanding? Is there any clarity at the moment?

You know, I really don't know. There's just so much pain out there. Of course we would be welcome. They would be very welcome. And we will read them and pass them on to our listeners so i suppose i'd just say sorry but it's not a deliberate it's not a deliberate slight i mean i certainly neither of us want to cause offense uh at all so yes i'm i'm sorry too and i don't think there's anything sadder really than i go i used to on my way to

to work i used to go past a synagogue and there is something... I always just used to find it desperately sad that they had to have security there. And I used to think... In fact, there was a time when I didn't know what the building was and then I discovered what it was. I do find it desperately, desperately sad. It's appalling that people are worried

about sending their children to Jewish schools in this country right now. I just think that's absolutely dire and should not be tolerated. And of course, everybody should be free to go to school. I did have a WhatsApp exchange last night with a Muslim woman who is a teacher and has actually been a contributor on Times Radio. And she was saying that lots of secondary schools are trying at the moment to explain the situation in the middle east to the children because like so many important subjects they're not really taught in schools are they um yeah i think there might be some schools that have got

the ability to have i don't know weekly or monthly sessions for the sixth form on current issues. But on the whole, and also you only have to listen, let's be honest, to a radio phone in anywhere in Britain. And you will hear the wealth, the shit, the depth of ignorance is astonishing. There's also any number of people who seem more than happy to share their stupid opinions with the rest of the world and there are a lot of people I suspect I'm certainly one of them you're one of them lots of people listening to this or in this category where we're so overwhelmed where we're doing our very very best to try to understand everything that there's no way we'd express an opinion in public because we just don't feel well enough informed. No, I would agree with that. I know what I feel.

But do you know what, I'd be interested to hear some thoughts from teachers and parents because I think lots of schools have really tried to explain in their assemblies and I don't know what that leaves the children thinking. I'd be interested to hear, you know, how you explain something quite so terrifying. And I think as well we have to acknowledge that our younger citizens are not getting their information

from the sorts of outlets that we know and understand. No, I think TikTok's been absolutely ridiculous over the last week. In fact, I know it has. Yeah, exactly. Yep. So really, to anybody who might be listening who has, I don't know, and I really hope you haven't, but any kind of personal link to what's going on, well, we're desperately sorry for you. And do please feel free to email us and let us know what you think.

Yeah. And thank you for raising that, Alexa. And, you know, I wish your family well. I hope everybody is safe. This one might be a career limiting email with the question at the end of it, Jane. Oh. Please anonymise. Happy to do that. I really empathise with the listener stressed about her job and wondering whether to pack it in.

I work on climate change. It's really pressurised with lots of staff to manage and a terrible sense of time running out. It's constantly juggling work and managing lots of different demands. But it's interesting. There are some wonderful colleagues and I feel I'm doing something worthwhile. I could retire early and some days when the stress builds up, I am tempted to just walk out. Very few people love their work every day.

Her metric, and this is our original listener, was that if you enjoy. Sorry, this is a wise friend of yours. Her metric was that if you enjoy your job 70% of the time then that's worth staying. This feels about right to me and when I have a bad day I take the longer view and think about how the job feels overall. So far I've stayed. I hope this 70-30 rule might be useful for others. How

would you rate your jobs against this Fee and Jane? Gosh put a figure on it, lady. I'm too emotionally attached to do something as crude as to put a figure on it. Quite impossible.

It would simply be impossible. But I like that because sometimes it is quite helpful to just have a figure. You know, it's like writing the pros and cons before you make a big decision and just promising yourself that you will stick to whichever line is longest and i like that 70 30 i've never thought of it that way before i think that's really helpful actually and you're right

you do have a wise friend to suggest that yeah um can we just mention there was a very sensible email from somebody involved in hr who did not like the notion of quiet quitting. Yes. Have you got that one? I have got that one. It's quite a it's quite a big. Oh, here we are. As an HR consultant, I was inwardly screaming at one of your listeners. This advice to quietly quit a demanding role. Firstly, I just don't think the listener who's considering leaving her job will be able to simply say no to everything over and above above her job description she doesn't sound that kind of person and whilst i completely agree that delegation is key and it's important to have firm boundaries around working and non-working time if as a senior manager your listener's style of working does a complete 180 eyebrows will be raised questions asked a one-to-one

conversation will definitely come her way, potentially followed by a lengthy capability process and or settlement agreement. This will be torturous for her and her team. There are some people who consciously take this route with the intention of reaching a settlement agreement. In my experience, it's unpleasant for colleagues and team members and takes someone with a really thick skin to achieve it. My advice is either to remove yourself from the organisation if financially you can do so, or have an upfront conversation with your manager about reduced hours. I believe it's important to try and achieve a sweet parting. Quiet quitting isn't the way.

Right. Yeah. I've worked with some people though, Jane, particularly back at the old place, who've been quietly quitting for 40 years. 20 years at least. This is Robert, he's quietly quitting. He's something in docs and he's quietly quitting.

This is from, it just says from Barnes, so I don't know whether that's a person who lives in the area or is called Barnes. Actually, they back up, because they are in HR after all, they back up Michael Ball with his view of the young folk and their tendency, tendency, maybe to not come in when they're just feeling a tad off colour. Well, Eve the Glorious is laughing.

She's not so sure about this one. Do you think the young generation are a little bit... Oh, don't start with your snowflakey thing. How many days did you miss in your, let's say, first proper two years of work, proper work in an office, before you were fired? Fired? Yes, let go from the advertising, advertising job.

I've never had any time off sick from that job. Okay. And actually... What about the next job? The next job, I mean, they sacked me and I hadn't had any time off sick. I do... Look, I mean, partly it's just good fortune, isn't it? Whether or not you're tired.

Whether or not you're off sick. I've never actually been. So I've, I'm trying to think, I was off with Covid. What was I? Did that happen after I'd left? I actually have hardly had any time off sick, but it's just sheer good fortune. I've never copped a sickie. Have you

never? No, I haven't. I absolutely haven't. I did turn up very hungover once at the BBC and was sick in the car park and was sent home. But that's once in a lifetime of bringing joy to a nation. Yes, I've never done it. Dear Jane and Fee, I really loved the Michael Ball interview, though, like Fee, I'm no fan of musical theatre.

Now, look, this is a terrible thing that I've done. It made me laugh. Fee's comment that Diana Rigg might be involved with Charles Brandreth's Theatre Dames. That might be the case, Brandt's Theatre Dames. That might be the case, says Elizabeth, if he was organising a seance. Unfortunately, Diana Rigg died three years ago. Right, okay.

But that's... I think that's probably why Michael was allowed to include the anecdote about her in his book. Yes, that's true. That's probably very true. Because you can't libel the dead, can you? You can't. Which is rather wonderful. Yes, that's true. That's probably very true. Because you can't libel the dead, can you? You can't, yeah. Which is rather wonderful.

Yes, and because Joan Collins came out of it quite well. Well, yes, she did. She did, yeah. She was the victim. She was the victim, but she willingly listened. I mean, honestly, I've got to... Let's hear it for Joan, because it's not easy to listen to criticism,

however well-meant is it. It just isn't. No, it's not easy to listen to criticism, however well meant is it. It just isn't. No, do you know what, it's the second slightly kind of acerbic acid tongue anecdote about a dame of the theatre that I'd heard in the space of a week. I don't know what happens to them further down the line but they all go

a bit pokey and sour. Or maybe that's what makes you a dame. Yeah. Because you've gone a bit pokey and sour. Could be. Claudia what makes you a dame. Yeah. Because you've gone a bit pokey and sour. Could be. Claudia wanted to talk about velvet ruts. Oh, yeah. Your observation last week about loving your weeknight routines. I mean, I'm so, do you know what?

I'm going to have a bubble bath tonight. I know which stuff I'm going to use. Probably have an hour of telly and I've got a lentil cottage pie thing to bung in the oven. Lovely. Yeah, I'm so excited. Anyway, and being in a velvet rut resonated with me. I felt compelled to write in, in fact.

My weeknight routine, of which your podcast forms a part, is actually sacrosanct to me. Now I'm in my early 50s. Wait till you get to my age. My boyfriend of nearly five years simply doesn't get my need for a routine, particularly during the week. He leaves everything to the last minute and never plans anything ahead,

and I find it infuriating. I feel guilty about my yearning for structure and my apparent inability and unwillingness to go with his flow, but then I quickly pull myself together. Oh, Claudia, don't bother pulling yourself together. Yeah, don't go with his flow. No, stick his flow. You do what you want. I mean, there's nothing...

It's so cosy, particularly as the nights draw in and you can light a scented candle. Yeah, you go with your own flow, love. Yeah, quite. I've just started season two of The Morning Show. You wouldn't even do season one, would you? No, I've got it on, but I don't watch television on laptops. Oh, God, I'm not going down that road

again. I know. It is worth it though. I'm really enjoying it. You know that feeling when you've got a box set, you've got two seasons left, so you know it's there for many many winter's evenings to come and I'm enjoying that feeling enormously.

It's like having a full freezer. Oh yeah, I know what you mean. Or sometimes, you know when you open the freezer and there's a loaf of bread in there and you thought you were out. It enjoying that feeling enormously. It's like having a full freezer. Oh, yeah, I know what you mean. It's a lovely... Or sometimes, you know when you open the freezer and there's a loaf of bread in there and you thought you were out? It's that feeling. Yeah. Have you bought your lentil cottage pie? Have you made that from scratch?

I made it. I had quite a hectic weekend, but I spent a lovely day yesterday just making... I made a chicken stew and I made a lentil cottage pie. That's quite comfort food, isn't it? Yeah, well, that's me. I'm a comfort. Yes. And I like food.

Jane the Comfort. I think we've hit on it. Oh yeah, that would be it. Actually, some women have the first name Comfort, don't they? I rather like that. That's very nice. Kathy from Derby says I would really recommend

getting a dog to meet the amazing people who love their canine family sorry short I'm cooking my supper for one no need to apologise Kathy at all so that's in response to where the best place is to go if you don't want to do the rather scary online dating

and I think Kathy's right I think dog walking do you know what the huge bonus about dog walking is you can just pretend your dog needs to go if you're stuck with someone really dull or who you don't really want to meet and you can just pretend oh look now I'm sorry Nancy needs to trot on and then off you go so I would recommend that and also it just gives you a bit of a prop yeah a very good prop well that was weirdly, that was the subject of a problem on the Graham Norton radio show

when he does his problem-solving slot with Maria McCurlain. Yeah. Somebody had written in about they'd spotted, or a really nice man had seen them with their dog in the park and they'd got talking and she couldn't work out whether he was single or not. He dropped a hint, but she wasn't sure. Anyway, it was a long story, but it was a good one.

I don't know how they solved it. I can't remember. John describes himself as an older male listener in Cumbria. I really like your show on Times Radio, he says. But how do I find out what you're going to do next? Do you have websites? No. Well, we're staying at Times Radio

for a while you don't need to worry John do you know something I don't know I hope I don't know he's only just listened to the interview with Rory Stewart so John I don't know whether you've emailed the show or the podcast

either way don't worry neither of them are going anywhere at least for the foreseeable so you can keep on listening and I'm sure you're not that much older than me and you're very, very welcome, thank you How do you know he's not that much older than you? I'm just assuming

he probably isn't, well he calls himself an older male listener but that might... He'll be 89 These days Fee, I mean that's fine 89, it's what we call a good age. Right, shall we talk about Ian Dale, who is our big guest on the show? Oh, look, you've got a Madonna clipping there.

Do you want to just do something about that? Well, she wasn't meant to start this global tour in London, was she? I don't know. I don't really follow Madonna. No, I think she had to cancel it because she'd been so unwell. And so it's like fluke that the very first gig is actually in London. OK. When it was meant to be perhaps somewhere else.

I could be wrong. Because like you, I'm not a mass madge person, massive madger. But I do, I mean, she's impossible not to admire, isn't she? But, you know, she's had great reviews for the show. Everybody absolutely loves it. Apparently it's thoughtful, it's funny. She sends herself up. She's slightly warmer than she used to be and perhaps her

recent illness has just made her a little less career driven, shall we say. All her kiddies helped her out. I suppose that's what I wanted to mention, just the fact that every single one of her children was in some way involved with the show. One of them played the piano, someone else took part

in a dance. As a parent it makes you you feel, as a parent, it makes you occasionally feel just a trifle inadequate. But I, you know, would our youngsters help out with something like this? I think we know the answer, don't we? Well, even if they wanted to, Jane, to be serious for a moment, I just, it makes me really a bit wobbly inside when I see that. Do you think, I mean, I think it's a good point you make there.

Do you think the celebrities should just resist the temptation to bring their kids into it? Hugely. I went to see Robbie Williams once years and years ago and he had a choir of, you know, quite young kind of kids chortling along and then his son came on to do a bit of, you know, the singing too and there's there's something quite there is something quite uncomfortable about being asked to applaud somebody's child uh i think it's a bit old isn't it but i noticed that the rugby um i mean i'm such

an expert on rugby i remember having a very ill-informed conversation about it just before the tournament started i think it was while you were on holiday in I remember having a very ill-informed conversation about it just before the tournament started. I think it was while you were on holiday in August with the very nice Maggie Alfonsi, who's one of the ITV pundits on the tournament. And I was just, you know, England haven't got a chance. I mean, it's embarrassing. They'd lost every single game going into the tournament.

You know what? They're nearly in. I think they probably will lose in the semi-final. So I'd just like to apologise to every England rugby player listening. I'm very sorry if I underestimated you. Yeah, what's the anecdote? But I do think you will lose in the semi-final. So I'd just like to apologise to every England rugby player listening. I'm very sorry if I underestimated you. Yeah, what's the end of it? But I do think you will lose in the semi-final. No, they're all bringing their kiddies on at the end of the game.

Oh, OK. So you've got these, and they are babes in arms, in the strip usually, often wearing gigantic ear defenders to drown out the sound. And who was the lovely little one who looked up at his dad and said, you're still the best dad? I think that was Sexton's son, the island. Very good Irish rugby player, and they lost on Saturday night.

I saw that. It's sweet, but isn't it sort of the same? Yeah, I didn't think it was sweet, actually, Jane, because the guy, his dad, just didn't even look down. In a stadium, you probably can't hear what your kids are saying to you either. And, of course, your mind's in a different kind of adult place. And, oh, I don't know, Jane. I think one of the nice things you can do as parents is just let your kids overtake you.

Step back. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's not about you. Yeah. And also there's just a ghoulish fascination in watching people's children so if I went to see Madonna

and all of her kids I mean they're young adults now aren't they they're not kiddie kiddies but if they came up on stage I know that I'd be kind of scanning them in a way that I wouldn't usually look at a young adult you know what are they wearing

do they look well and I don't know, it's just a bit strange Well, Beyonce does it too, doesn't she with young Blue Ivy Does she? I don't know, I'm not Have you been to see the Bay? No, but she's been on stage Okay, yeah People can tell us what they think

Well they will, Jane and C at Times.Radio Well, just if my kids are listening Don't you, Helen. My kids won't be listening, so I don't need to make that. Just to say, I want to say thank you to everybody I met at Beaudley in Worcestershire on Friday night. Lots of fans, Fee, of you. Lots of fans of you. Basically, I put them right.

Yeah. And also, by the way, we shifted some books. Did you? Yes. Now, have you been faking my signature? I didn't fake your signature. It was all completely legit. They were just all signed by me.

But I think that's what... There was, honestly, a very respectable queue of people, some lovely, lovely people there at the Beaudelay Arts Festival. And who came up to you who had thoroughly enjoyed the performance? Well, somebody who used to be in quite a well-known rock band Robert Plant has now seen me live and how many people can say that

did he queue up for a book? no he didn't do you think he'd like the miserable sod the mitherings of two middle-aged women why don't we send him a copy we've got a few knocking around oh dear

well that's quite something though that's a nice old concert to have in the audience Why don't we send him a copy? We've got a few knocking around. Oh, dear. Well, that's quite something, though. That's a nice old concert to have in the audience. Well, he's 75 now. So I suppose you could say he is behaving in an entirely appropriate way. Yeah, and good on him. For a gent of 75. Yep, and also, you know, it must be quite lonely sometimes as an international former jet-setting rock star.

What are you going to do on a Friday night? Well, if you're here, if you're Robert Plant, you go to a local community event in your town. Yeah, I think that's really good. So in a couple of years' time, what notable rock star do you think will be going to a community event in their local town? Well, I mean, I just want Rod Stewart to come to one of our shows, Jane. I really, really think him and Penn would have a lovely time. Do you think, I don't know,

I'm trying to think of somebody more contemporary who's really like challenging the, you know, I don't know, just saying awkward things, doing incredible stuff. Stormzy. Stormzy. Will Stormzy in 40 years time,

45 years time, attend a talk? Yes. In his local town hall. Yes, I suppose you probably will. I think storms will. All right, yeah, fine. Fair enough. But how did he introduce himself?

Did he say, I'm Robert, and then just expect you to know that he was Plant? Much cooler than that. It was actually his partner who I was chatting to first of all, and she said, oh, have you met my partner Robert? And I found myself suddenly in conversation. With Robert Plant. Yes. And you did immediately recognise him? So she was myself suddenly in conversation. With Robert Plowman. Yes. And you did immediately recognise him.

So she was the cool one. Yes, I did. Okay. I put my foot in it with a member of Pink Floyd once by not managing to do that. Introduced by the partner. We haven't got time for that story. It's all about me.

Okay? It's not all about me, but it is. Okay? Which member of Pink Floyd? I'm not going to tell you that. Not the terrible one. No, I was going to say, not him. No. Ian Dale is a man of many things.

Political publisher and journalist, podcaster, radio presenter, Cliff Richard of Fisher Nardo, and we do get on to that, and now curator of a massive tome all about the kings and queens of England. He's compiled and curated an extraordinary collection of essays from historians and writers detailing the lives of every monarch in England from the dawn of time. That's a little bit of an exaggeration. Dawn of time. We crawled out of the what's it, lo, we appointed a monarch.

Anyway, the book starts with Ian meeting the late Queen, which was for him something of a dream come true. Yeah, I got invited when I was in the world of book publishing. There was a reception at Buckingham Palace for people from the books industry, 800 of her closest friends there. And my partner came along with me, who's a very shy person, doesn't sort of push himself forward at all. But obviously, the main objective was to meet the Queen and talk to her. So we were sort of ambling around for,

I don't know, an hour. I'm thinking, we're never going to get to it. Let's just go. We've seen what there is to see. Let's just go. No, no, no, if we stand here, we will get to meet her. Did you block the exit for Her Majesty? No, it wasn't quite like that. But she did have to walk past us to get into the next room. So as she walked past us, I think I stepped forward and engaged her in conversation. And it was really funny because everyone else was trying to edge, you know what it's like at these receptions, everyone tries to edge their way in. So I kept trying to block them. And we talked to her probably for about five minutes,

and she was actually really easy to talk to, because she had this reputation of having very little small talk, but actually, and she was such a gossip as well, wanted all the political gossip from Westminster. Bear in mind, this was like 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago. God, imagine if you tried to do that these days, you'd be there for an hour and a half at least, wouldn't you? But that's interesting.

Was there any sense that you slightly broke with etiquette? Because I thought at those kind of things, you had to very much wait until somebody, you know, kind of equerry or whatever, brought you forward and into conversation. Probably. OK, but you got away with it. You have one chance to meet the Queen.

You're going to take it. I know, Jane, you've met her loads of times, haven't you? No, I've never met her. Have you not? Did you meet her? No, but I've been to one of those fancy shindig things and it was really, really strictly choreographed, so only a certain number of people

who had been previously identified were allowed to talk to her. I don't remember her being led over. No. Well, I mean, well done you, because what a fantastic, fantastic anecdote. But as you say, when you're retelling that story, the thing that was so striking, one of the things that was so striking about her was the fact that she had met so many of her subjects

and actually genuinely touched the lives of those people because nobody forgets the anecdote about the time they met the queen no and i think what's the statistic i mentioned is a third of the british people so they've either met or been in the same room as the queen i mean that that is an incredible statistic it really is isn't it yeah and some of the earlier monarchs here they will have been completely unknown to their subjects some of their subjects and indeed to me. Some of their subjects won't have known the name of the monarch, will they? No. Or cared, presumably.

Absolutely. And that's the reason I went back to King Alfred, because we all think history begins in 1066. Well, it doesn't. In this book, it begins in 886. But I could have gone back further. But I think Alfred the Great was the first monarch who lay claim to be the king of England. He actually wasn't the king of the whole of England. I think Æthelstan is probably the one that can lay claim to that. But some of these early Saxon monarchs or the Danish ones, I mean, they are absolutely fascinating. Edwig, who I think you mentioned a little bit earlier, he, I think I'm right in saying, is the only king to have had a threesome with his mother-in-law on his wedding night.

That's quite a spicy little place. That wasn't necessarily what I was expecting to hear. But that's the days for you. And how do we know that? Well, there's this thing called the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which I'd never heard of, but without the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which I'd never heard of. But without the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, we wouldn't know anything about most of the monarchs before 1066. It is the history book of the time. And there is one king, who's the third one in the

book, Elfweird, who I'm afraid Matt Stadlin drew the short straw in writing about him, because there is literally nothing that we know about him. So I asked him to write 1,500 words about nothing and in the end he managed to write 500. He kept saying, I've been to the British Library, I can't find anything on him. I said, well, of course you can. Try harder. Because that's the great thing about this book.

I don't have to write it. It's very clever. Well, it is, actually, isn't it? So we can assume that poor bloke didn't have any threesomes then we don't think so but we couldn't say categorically but there is the fun part of doing a book like this

is actually putting the jigsaw together matching the right contributor with the right monarch and a lot of them choose the ones they want to do but there are others who don't know anything about them so they research them from scratch And I think it's worked. I think it has too. Can we just return to Alfred a little bit, please? Because in fact, he is, I mean, as you say, he is actually, his life is quite well documented. So we

do really know some details about him. And his vision of how he wanted to govern and rule is fascinating. So aside from needing to hold a powerful military position, he saw that his citizens needed to live in decent accommodation. He created boroughs, didn't he? And if you think of when he was operating, I mean, he could practically be the housing minister on the Labour front bench with some of his Newtown plans, couldn't he? Well, he realised that to govern, you have to have the consent of the people. And if you don't have the consent of the people, you are doomed. And, of course, the stories of a lot of these monarchs is that they are doomed. They die in battle.

I mean, up until, I think it was, was it William IV? I want to say William IV. Around the pre-Victorian age, every single monarch had gone into battle, virtually. And King Alfred, I think, lays a claim to be one of our most important monarchs because although there was no democracy in those days, he did understand that the people had to have a say and they had to understand the institution of the monarchy. And, I mean, now we would never invent the monarchy but it somehow works for this country and I think our country

would be diminished without it and if you look at the evolution of parliamentary democracy it does stem through the monarchy um through the uh through the Witan or I think it's the Witan Gamot I don't know how you pronounce, but that was a sort of early version of a parliament. All the sort of the noblemen of the country would meet up once a year in Oxford and they would have this sort of parliament. And then it developed into a proper parliament in 1265. That was the first setting of the English parliament. And we then gradually become this parliamentary monarchy that we are now.

As you have so correctly pointed out, you know, we don't really get to choose parliamentary monarchy that we are now. As you've so correctly pointed out, you know, we don't really get to choose the monarchy. There's a certain kind of reckless behaviour that is allowed in regal circles that you would hope would eventually be voted out, although modern politics may not bear witness to that. But one example of truly bad behaviour is Charles II. And this is a fabulous chapter written by Charlotte White. I didn't realise that he was quite so prolific in his attentions towards the ladies. I mean, this is under the section children, and he was married to Catherine of Braganza. Children, no legitimate heirs, but his illegitimate offspring included. Here we go. James Scott, the Duke of Monmouth by Lucy Walter, Anne Fitzroy, Countess of Sussex,

Charles Fitzroy, Duke of Southampton, Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Grafton, Charlotte Fitzroy. It goes on and on. There are two more women to come by Barbara Villiers, George Fitzroy, the Duke of Northumberland, Charles Beauclerk by Nell Gwynn, and then one other by Louise de Caruglier, can't pronounce that properly. I mean, what an absolute cad. And Charlotte goes on to say, did those qualities that made him a bad husband necessarily make him a bad man, or more importantly, a bad king? And the terrible realisation throughout the whole of this book, really, is that even if it did there's not an awful lot we can do basically they were all at it weren't they though yeah and I mean

Prince Charles I think used his philandering or justified his philandering so yes every other Prince of Wales has done it and it's true they did and I mean the book I mean it is a serious book but there are lots of anecdotes about the philandering that go through the book. And seven of our 60-odd monarchs were probably gay, which I hadn't realised before. Who are you claiming? Well, I've actually got the, helpfully got the list in front of me.

Queen Anne. No, I didn't. Well, yeah, I've seen the film. Yeah, well, exactly. So it must be true. Well, but you're saying it really, that was the film with Olivia Colman, wasn't it? Yes.

Edward II, Richard II, James I. William of Orange was apparently, but Tommy Two Ways, as Charles Brandreth would say. Well. What? We're at Times Radio. This is, you know, it's not your normal neck of the woods. But let's hear it for the House of Orange.

Indeed. My big story about them is the fact that they are the ones who determined the colour of carrots, aren't they? Yeah, because they were purple, weren't they? They were purple. They changed them. One of the great things about putting this book together was I discovered this whole phalanx of young female royal historians that I hadn't known existed.

Alex Churchill, who you should have on. I heard you talk about the Queen Victoria chapter. She wrote that. She is a force of nature. She's basically a World War I historian more than anything else. But she runs a podcast called History Hack, and it seeks to sort of popularise history. called History Hack, and it seeks to sort of popularise history. And she introduced me to, I don't know, 20 or 30,

sort of 20, 30, 40-something young royal historians who basically are the backbone of the book, and they were so pleased to be involved in it as well, because sometimes you want a scattering of big names, so obviously like Henry VIII, first Lord David Starkey, he is the world authority on Henry VIII, and he's written a really original chapter on him. So you want a few well-known names, but you also want people who really specialise in a particular era.

Yeah, and I think it does bring a really good perspective to the book because without wanting to be too kind of gender determinative, if that's even a term, I think that there is... I learnt more about Queen Victoria in Alex Churchill's chapter and about who she was as a woman than I've ever learnt. Well, she sort of wrote it from a feminist perspective, which I don't think anyone's ever done before.

You learn that Queen Victoria really liked sex, but she hated, as you said, Jane, being pregnant and was quite open about the difficulties that most of her pregnancies involved. And also about her body image. Yeah. So she was very, very conscious of how she looked and the slightly barrel nature of her figure.

That's in later life, after nine kids. Well, an inevitability. But I had never read something that tackled that quite so specifically. And the fact that Lord Melbourne, her first prime minister, who, if you believe the ITV series, she was totally entranced by, he tried to tell her, you cannot keep eating all of this stuff because you will get very fat, and she really didn't like being told that.

And she didn't like exercise, did she? She said said whenever she went out she got stones in her shoes you would have thought of all of the people you could ask someone to remove those stones it would be queen victoria can i just ask i don't want to interrupt the flow of the conversation but when are we going to talk about cliff richard bearing in mind that we've got this very serious statement from the comments oh okay i'm about to be soon act aren't i yes no but we're going to keep you on that's a very good point well we, we'll talk just a tiny bit more about the book after we've heard from Rishi Sunak too,

but there's so much in it. It's absolutely delightful to read in. Really, really delightful. Cliff Richard question coming. What is your Cliff Richard news, Ian, that you have to impart to us? Well, in an exclusive, I can tell you that for three nights at the Hammersmith Apollo, I'm going to be appearing with Cliff Richard on stage.

How about that? You're not singing or anything, are you? No, I won't be singing. I probably could. I know most of the words to his big hits. You do. I'm going to be interviewing him. So he's doing a concert tour. It's called the Blue Sapphire Tour. He's doing six dates at the Hammersmith Apollo

in the middle of November. Tim Rice and I are going to be interviewing. Tim's doing three nights, I'm doing three nights. So he sings for 40 minutes, 20 minutes before the interval. I come on stage to rapturous applause, no doubt. I'll be there and I'll be leading the applause. Fee, possibly not so much. She doesn't sound like a fan.

I live a long way away, Ian. It'll be difficult for me to get there. I know exactly where you live. Sounds a bit wrong way away, Ian. It'll be difficult for me to get there. Not exactly where you live, really. Well, that sounds a bit wrong, that, Ian. No, it's all right. Jane can take the ticket, because they'll be highly sought after. They are.

So we do 20 minutes before the interview, 20 minutes after the interview, he then does another 40 minutes singing, Bob's your uncle. OK, so how many tracks by Sir Clifford have you got on your phone? About 1,500. That must be... Because I first went to see him when I was 15 at the Palladium,

back in 1978, I think it was. And I obviously knew who he was before that, seeing him on television, but I just think some of his songs, they sort of transcend the ages. I mean, who can forget Miss Unites? Well, Miss Unites is a great song. Only got to number 15, though. That's crazy, isn't it?

Completely. Why did that happen? I don't know. Maybe just released at the wrong time. But I think it was the precursor to Devil Woman, which did get to number one. Yeah, Devil Woman is not my favourite. No?

What is your favourite, is it, Miss Unites? Miss Unites is my favourite song of all time. How many times? It just beats The Winner Takes It All. Does it? Yeah. Wow. Gosh, so you like quite a sad song then, Ian. I do. I like I really do like ballads, yeah. How many times a week would

you listen to a Cliff song? Well, I usually have my phone on shuffle and I've got 42,000 songs on it, so maybe not that often. But he's got a new album coming out, so I should be addicted to that. Yeah, so you're a busy, busy man. There's a really lovely final chapter by a little-known broadcaster, Sheila Fogarty.

She's a former colleague of ours, and we both hugely admire her. It's a lovely chapter as well. It's about King Charles, obviously. How important was it for him to release this statement after Saturday's atrocities, saying that he had asked to be kept informed in the situation as it developed in Israel and Gaza? Is that a departure from what his mother would have done? Are we not right to assume that he would have wanted to be informed anyway? Why did he need to tell us that?

I think the Queen would have done exactly the same thing. I mean, obviously, we assume that he would have wanted to be informed anyway why did he need to tell us that i think the queen would have done exactly the same thing um i mean obviously we assume that the government keeps the monarch informed of anything but i mean that there is a substantial jewish community in this country i mean it's not actually as big as people think i think it's only about 200 000 people but actually i looked it up the other day, 270,000. Is it? Right. So he would want to send a signal to them that they're uppermost in his mind. I think the most interesting part of that, to enter into a controversial area, is that he did use the word terrorists,

which the BBC seems unable to bring itself to do. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for coming into the studio this afternoon. That's Ian Dale. His book is Kings and Queens, 1,200 Years of English and British Monarchs. And we should just say that's just because if you were to talk about the rulers of Scotland or Wales, it would be a book four times the size.

Yeah, there were a lot of Scottish kings. And there ought to be a book of Scottish kings there are plenty of them so but I think someone in Scotland should probably do that yeah I'm turning my mind to dictators next are you not going to do the high kings of Ireland strangely not oh I think you'll find plenty I'm doing the Irish Taoiseach which is the plural of Taoiseach yes I'm sure you know that with your heritage oh absolutely I think of almost nothing else end of next year right and Cliff Richard. All in the mix.

What a heady life our guest Ian Dale leads. And we haven't mentioned West Ham. No, but there's no need to. No need. Absolutely no need at all. Right, that was Ian Dale. Yes, that was Ian Dale. And he did say, or was it you who said, the book would be even more ginormous

if he'd written about the Scottish and Welsh kings. Yeah, so he did decide to just go England on it for that reason. And also, you know, as he says, the book about Scottish kings and queens should be written by a Scot, which he's not because he's a West Ham supporter. And he's doing Dictators next. Gosh.

What do you think will be the common theme there? Well, men. Men. Sorry. Yes, I know, it's a bit of a, yeah. Has that, it's a good question, has there been a female dictator? No, so I think it's a question that's often asked, isn't it? And there are quite a few, obviously, wives of essentially dictators

who've probably been the power behind the throne and have been distinctly oppressive in the way that they behave. But no, I can't think of an all-female, self-appointed dictator. And is the pendulum swing of equality, does it mean, Jane, that we have to have some? Would that be proving that we've come of age? Things get a little... There's some grey areas

in this debate and I totally get your quandary there. And we also of course did point out we didn't want to discuss West Ham at all. No. So that's fine. Nope. Right. Is it time to say goodnight, Jane? I really fear it might be

Yeah Jane O'Fay at Times.Radio if you'd like to join in with whatever this is and don't forget that we are reading Boy Swallows the Universe by Trent Dalton as our book club book I've just started it I feel perilous

I am quaking at the prospect of reading that book now Oh Yeah, I'm going to just I'm going to plant this here, because I think our readers are curious enough to pursue a book and come up obviously with their own opinions. I did feel when I started to read it last night, it's it may be an amazing book, not for this time. That's what I thought, Jane, but I'm going to obviously carry on. And I think that's something that's worth talking about in the book club anyway.

Okay. When you read a book, it can define how much you like it and sometimes I know that I've gone back to a book at a different point in my life and absolutely loved it but it's been a book I've thrown across the room the first time round. Okay. Right, interesting.

I'm slightly, oh gosh, I found it by my bed under a big pile. We'll do 20 pages maybe over the course of this week. I'm too busy this week. We've both got a lot going on. Oh, we do, actually. We've got some launches. We're going to launches. And on Wednesday, you're going to talk to Christian and Guru Murthy.

I am. I'm going to get my spangles out for that. Well, I mean, he's got an interesting life at the moment, hasn't he? He's doing Channel 4 News, which, I mean, it's a show I've always rated. I think going to get my spangles out for that. Well, I mean, he's got an interesting life at the moment, hasn't he? He's doing Channel 4 News, which, I mean, is a show I've always rated. I think it's very good. And he's on Strictly. That must be very odd at the moment. I think it's very strange, and that will be where I start the interview, actually,

because I don't know whether or not, especially in this extraordinary time of world conflict, where's his journalistic head? Yeah, well, you will ask him. OK, everybody, you dig deep into your velvet rots. We'll see you tomorrow. And remember, stay with your own flow. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us.

And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.