Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Jane the Short Arse and Fi the Chunk of Calf

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

In this wide ranging episode, Jane and Fi discuss Jane's fridge flanges, jury duty, Alexa, pet grief and Nectar cards. Plus, Dame Alison Saunders, British barrister and a former Director of Public Prosecutions, discusses whether the justice system is fit for purpose. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If a burglar suddenly set to through an ajar door whilst I was diamond grinding Nancy's claws on the sofa, they'd just turn around and leave. They'd be happy to leave all my stuff. They wouldn't want to get involved with that scene. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. On a cool cloudy January morning in 2022, Ian Indredson makes himself some eggs, plays with his dog, walks out the door of his waterfront home and disappears. The 54 year old senior government spokesperson is a gifted writer. He lives a life of some privilege and comfort with his wife, Gloria and their beloved Black Lab Willow.

So what happened to Ian? I'm veteran journalist Laura Palmer, and this is Island Crime Season 7 Evaporated. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. podcast. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. This episode of Off Air is sponsored by Wild Frontiers Travel. Sophie, tell me, where's on your travel bucket list? Well, I would really like to go to much emptier places because I live in the heart of a beating city so I think Mongolia. Well with Wild Frontiers Travel you'll see

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Hang on love, hang on! OK great, only my microphone is on, hooray. It's Tuesday and this is Off Air and you're welcome to it. I can hear a lot of you. Oh, I can hear me now. I was going to say welcome to all of our international listeners, Jane. We've had a very, very international email inbox. I had one from Belgium. I know. I mean, I haven't been to Belgium since I went to Belgium on my tour of Europe.

On your interrail. Very, very famous Interrail. Jane went interrailing with a briefcase, not a rucksack. She went to Brussels, she went to Zurich. And then I came home. She went to many tax havens. We don't know why. Oh nonsense, honestly. I'm not a bad woman. Anyway here we are. This time yesterday neither of us had heard of DeepSeek and now we have. Now we are all over it. Oh my god. But do you know what, Jane, the idea that the Chinese wouldn't look at things that were developed in the West, use their enormous brains and develop it cheaper and faster and send it back to us, the idea that that wouldn't happen in any other area, given that it's

happened in every other area of our lives, seems a little bit arrogant of us. I think you might be onto something there. There's something about whether, I mean you have to admire their timing. Have they done this deliberately, especially after that big, big shimmery, shiny tech announcement in the States last week and they must have been sitting there in Beijing tittering away. You're right. So the one that went, we're investing 27 trillion dollars in AI. Yeah, star something. And yeah, they were just laughing.

Anyway, this is not a story either of us pretend to be experts in, but I have never been more grateful for Chris Stokell Walker, who is our weekly correspondent on the radio show. Hear him a quarter to four on a Wednesday on Times Radio in the afternoon. He's so clear and he makes it interesting. And actually, do you know what, even if you don't find it interesting, can I just suggest you start finding it interesting? Oh, I find it fascinating. Genuinely. And I don't want to be, I don't want to go into my older age with that kind of farm gate shut behind me, you know, the kind of, oh, everything about AI is bad. It wasn't like that in my day.

It was much better when we didn't have this. It was much better. I just don't want to be that person because I just think our whole world will be operating with something under its skin and there are good, there are just so many good uses for it. If I'm looked after by an AI robot and it is nice to me and funny and reminds me of when to take my medication, make sure that I never miss an episode of Escape to the Sun, I will be grateful for that. It is better than nothing. Yes, gosh it is better than nothing. Yeah, so I don't want to be, I don't want to be all kind of away eyes terrible, I just don't think all of it is

at all. I think it's run by some slightly odd people. Slightly odd is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. But what do you feel about it? Because I think you are more technophobic than I am. I am, also, I've got that machine at home that now plays the radio for me. And you like it. And I don't dislike her at all. Although, I was talking the other day to a friend's mum at a birthday party actually, and she was saying that for many, many years her life had passed without incident until she found in her ninth decade that she shares the name of that machine.

And since then life has become a bit more complicated for her, which you can imagine it would. It's a lovely name and it was rather unusual and people used to compliment her on having it. And now it's just become not a burden but a trial at times. Yeah. You could just get a different one there couldn't you? Because we don't have an Alexa. Yeah, she doesn't shout Google at the Google. She doesn't have one but she visits other homes where people have them and then all havoc breaks loose.

Yeah, but back to the more technophobic thing. Yeah. Do you actively challenge your mindset about technology? Because there just is so much more of it around in our daily lives than ever before. You and I don't come from a place where our natural A plus B equals C is a digital equation. It's an analog thing all the time. So I think from my age upwards, mid-50s, I think it can seem like every single thing that you do, you now have to understand a digital alternative,

whereas people younger than us don't have that mindset. That's just a fact, isn't it? It is. And I'm not one of these... I don't want to turn into one of these people who's nostalgic for a time when people had rickets. I mean, it's just ridiculous. And when people can get access to information that they wanted. Well, as long as they're getting access to a decent standard of information, I suppose that's the worry. Which reminds me, our guest today is a former director of public prosecutions.

We do like to offer variety on this podcast and indeed on our radio show because we're talking about jury trials and we were just we're talking about jury trials really because we were having conversations in the office last week about that awful case in Southport which is you know it's almost it's just utterly unbearable but as it happened that didn't go to trial in the end because the man responsible pleaded guilty but had it gone to trial what kind of a jury could have been assembled who would have honestly not known a great deal about the case beforehand or wouldn't have thought they knew all about it beforehand? And you haven't been on a jury have you? No, so I've passed it twice. I've been asked twice and both times I've been excused from it.

The first time I was doing my journalist training course and genuinely if I'd missed, it was only an eight week training course, can you tell? That ninth week would have made such a big difference. If it had been a long trial, I would have missed my training. So they agreed to that then. And then I just said, you know, I'm freelance and I can't afford it. I think I'd just gone back to work after having one of my kids and it genuinely would have been quite difficult to sort that out so they've excuse me but you do get a letter saying we're coming back for you, you've just postponed it but you've done an inquest, haven't you, but not a full trial?

Yes, I did an inquest jury, but honestly it was in 1983 and I was barely eligible. I think I was just 19. It was the university holidays. I wasn't exactly overburdened, so I was more than happy to go along. It was only for a day. Oh, I see. Gosh, that's quick. Yes, it was only for a day. Yes, I haven't actually ever met anybody who's been on an inquest, I mean, must happen. But since then nothing, and I'm slightly of the view that, I mean obviously in my retirement, which don't worry, it's coming, when it's got to be within the next 15 years, I'll be very available. The countdown clock's on. But actually you can't do it over the age of 70. Would you mind checking Eve? I think it's over

70 that you become ineligible for jury service. But would I be, because I've got a bit of a hankering to do it if I'm honest. Does that mean actually that I'm not the right person to do it? Because I quite... But also can you volunteer to be on a list? Can you say I'm actually quite available, you know, pick me? Oh, can you opt in? Yeah. I'm not sure that you can.

But also we are fascinated by what you can and can't say from the jury rooms. So we know that you would be able to talk about what the court has heard because that's what the reporting allowance is in court anyway, isn't it? Anything that the court has told or shown, the public are allowed to know about. If the jury's in the room. Yes, but what are the rules about the jury room? If you anonymise yourself, if you anonymise the accused, if you anonymise victims, are you able to talk about it?

And also, I mean, Jay and I were saying this earlier, the reality is that some people are gossips and really want to tell everybody detailed information and some people aren't and juries would be six or one half a dozen of the other. So what have you told people and how do you feel? And also I'm very interested by the the mark it might leave on some people. Think if if you're very young, or for whatever reason actually, you just find it difficult to take on board incredibly violent imagery and scenes and really dark details. I think that's most people. What are you meant to do with all of that stuff afterwards?

Just a fascinating topic. Do remember everybody, if anyone else can remember that ridiculous TV show Judge John Deed, it's nothing like that. I've never watched that, was that Martin? Martin Shaw. I mean he used to regularly leap over into the courtroom and start investigating cases whilst he was simultaneously judging them. What a show-off. Just ridiculously. He was a man who thought he could do everything. What about Judge Judy? Judge Judy is different, that's completely accurate. Now look, I think we probably both want to say a big warm audio hug to a listener called Belinda who just

wants to tell us that her cat died. Oh yes. I just want to, let's just read this because it will resonate. My cat died today. She was a rescue who I met during lockdown as a result of the Cat Protection League's pioneering of virtual rehoming via WhatsApp. So I met her on a video call. She was delivered to my doorstep. I live alone and I just returned to full-time face-to-face work after months of treatment for breast cancer when lockdown happened and all our lives went on hold. I took it very personally, having already been locked in my house for the best part of seven months of treatment. My little cat was a bit cranky and broken,

I suppose a bit like me, but I loved her and I think she loved me back. We rescued each other during that difficult time. She came to me with health issues. Today, these overtook her, so we had to say goodbye. I'm heartbroken. Is that too much? She was just a cat. Oh, no, no, no.

She wasn't though, was she? No. Belinda, she was much more than that. She was your pet. She was a presence in your home. She was part of the fabric of the place. So look, I know that cats are only cats, but in that moment and during these couple of days and weeks, she'd be much more than that to you

and I'm really sorry. You see, I would take out just and only from those sentences. Would you? Okay. Well, I suppose... Because I think it comes from the same place, Jane, as other human grief. I think when you lose a creature that you love it's tapping into exactly the same stuff and we've talked about this before because you lost your can't temporarily remember a name. Listen Fie, I've got pictures of her all over the house poor Mittens. Sorry. It's only now that I've got Dora that I

realized what a legendary cat Mittens was. but when you lost Mittens you were very... Oh, it was awful! Yeah, very upset. It was awful. I honestly think back to the simple dignity of that animal in the last couple of days. So we won't accept you're just a cat. You're absolutely entitled to feel a very, very high level of grief. And especially if you saw something of yourself in a cat, that's such a bond. Oh, Belinda, you've had a rotten time. And just acknowledge it.

And don't be hard on yourself. And I mean, obviously it's too soon at the moment, but if I were you, I'd get on to the Cats Protection League in the next couple of months when you feel a bit better about everything. How long do you think you have to leave it before you get another animal? I don't know. I think, does it differ depending on the animal? I don't know. I left it a year between cats.

Yeah, I think that's probably a good enough time. You definitely, people, I think people are very quick to say, oh, you know, just get another one. But then I just think that you'd be a bit angry that they weren't your old one. I know that when, you know, when Nancy goes, actually I sometimes think that might be it. There'll never be another Nancy. Anyway, she's fine for now. Well, you've had a complimentary email about the device that you recommended. Have you got that one?

So I love the title of this email apart from anything else, because I think it's called Grind Baby Grind. I was horrified by that and wondered what it was about. I didn't have any need to worry. Lynn says thank you for the recommendation of the nail grinder used for Nancy. I too have a greyhound, Sid. Do you see what's happened there? I have a greyhound.

Sid and Nancy. Oh yeah. They should get together. Or should they? Well no, I think... Because it wasn't a great combination. No, it really wasn't. Who loves it, can't believe how easy it is and how strangely calming it is for us both.

So I agree, Lynne. I mean, it takes Nancy to a place that she didn't know existed once the nail grinder is grinding. And it is the oddest thing. I do think if a burglar suddenly set to through, you know, an ajar door whilst I was diamond grinding Nancy's claws on the sofa, they'd just turn round and leave. They'd be happy to leave all my stuff.

They wouldn't want to get involved with that scene. Well, if that's what's making you feel safer in your own home, I'm glad. But you would go, what the actual? What's happening here? A large but clearly zoned out, extraordinarily satisfied greyhound and a woman anyway. Right, look, life, let's weave our rich tapestry. Have you got any gadgets you can recommend? No, don't do that. No, not those kind. If anyone can answer my question, why is my fridge now making a slightly annoying groaning noise, intermittently, please let me know. I'm not prepared to Google it

because I fear the answer might be you need to get a new fridge. I think you might have a loose flange. Oh really? Oh no, what? I fell for that then. Do you want to do Jack's greetings from Denmark? No, you do it. Okay, so Jack can you also get back in touch because we did ask for our Danish correspondents to inform us about how Denmark would feel if President Trump 2.0 just took Greenland. On the topic of sex education and sexuality, I'm a gay guy who had sex education in school in the mid to late noughties and I don't remember the concept of same sex attraction

or relationships ever being mentioned and trust me, little me would definitely have remembered that. This is of course disappointing but not all that surprising given that homosexuality had only been fully decriminalized in 2001 and section 28 which effectively banned teaching around homosexuality was only removed across the UK in 2003. I distinctly remember as a 10 or 11 year old being ushered into gender divided classrooms with the excitement of the sex talk fizzing around the assembled group of boys like a firework. The trusty old TV trolley was dragged into the room and a kindly female voiceover told our feverishly expectant ears that when a boy sees a girl that he likes,

his penis grows. And this is a nice feeling. Sorry but okay. This was helpfully demonstrated by a naked cartoon boy feeling the full-on effects of a passing pretty girl. Gosh I mean that's quite graphic actually. We've definitely gone beyond carrots and condoms here. The TV trolley though that does bring back memories doesn't it? Younger people won't understand the thrill of the TV trolley entering a classroom. They won't. But you might still see them in hospitals sometimes or in offices where they haven't upgraded yet. But look, this is, I mean, you've made a leap, Jack, because at least there are some feelings being talked about. I think, you know, for most of us who are slightly older, the sex education talk, it was just

so clinical and biological. It wasn't about emotions. Nobody mentioned the fact that you might actually like a boy and that might change how your body reacted. Although admittedly we don't know whether or not female feelings were being talked about in the next door classroom. Jack goes on to say, now what this animation added to our understanding I don't know. Little boys are usually all too aware of their own willies but the idea that a boy might feel the same way about another boy was certainly never mentioned. And Jack goes on to say, I know that all this has changed for the better now despite the perverted woke nonsense claims from a saucer commentary twats in newspapers and on TV. I'm liking Jack's use of language here, Jane.

Modern PHSE lessons offer cover a broad range of topics from differing sexualities and gender identities to pornography consent and even masturbation. When I was at school the idea that a girl would masturbate was derided and joked about with shameful disgust. Yet it turns out that everybody was at it and joked about with shameful disgust, yet it turns out that everybody was at it and good on them. I think, Jack says by the way, January's nearly over, thank F for that, my dry January got a little damp this evening, but I'm counting it as a success nonetheless. Well done, you Jack.

Yes, I think you've done well. So I think all of that is really, it's really interesting, but also, I mean, it's only back in the noughties, it's really not, it's not very far away that and to just have had absolutely no recognition of homosexuality I am surprised. Yeah, is poor but maybe, you know, that's just with the benefit of hindsight, we think that we're also much more advanced but we weren't back then. I mean it would have been at the height of the other messaging that was going on which was around AIDS and you know wearing condoms

so there were two very big things going on in the big wide world outside so just odd for it not to have filtered into the classroom at all. Interesting I mean I do let us know if you're gay or if you're not, whatever you are, when you first had your sexuality acknowledged in these lessons at school. Because I'm with Fee, we didn't talk about any kind of feelings, it was just perfunctory, biological. But nobody talked about being gay. I mean, ours is an all-girls school with 600 girls in it and nobody ever talked about being gay and it's just not going to be a truth that we're all heterosexual. No, I mean, yeah, exactly. And I don't think well, masturbation, I think Katnum Aran invented

it for women, didn't she? She did very much so. It hadn't actually been thought of by anybody else. Richard is in Brussels and he says, dear Fiann Jane, as a cisgender gay man, I have to start the email with sorry. Actually, I don't know whether strictly speaking, we do require sorry, do we from Richard? No. I like a sorry. Okay, let's carry on with it. Just a couple of words about the health system here in Belgium. As an official of the European Commission, you see all sorts of people listen to this show. I am sorry podcast, I am not covered by any Belgian health insurance so I pay everything up front and then I claim it back. However I do use the same system as everyone else so we all have an ID card with a chip on

it and you give that to the doctor. As a result all of your health records prescriptions and everything else are linked to your ID card and you can get your prescription filled at the chemist just by giving them your card. It's very clever. That's quite advanced there Jane. Yeah well that's the Belgians for you but with that and their chocolate they are winning at life. You can also send your prescription to a chemist via one of the government's apps. I can see any doctor I want and I book online. So today I saw a doctor for my annual medical checkup and said and paid 55 euros. He said I should see a cardiologist so I went to the Doctor Anytime app, found

a cardiologist close to my office and booked an appointment for the day and time I wanted. You see there's no point being a lardite when you can have something called a Doctor Anytime app. Yes, so this is why we all need to embrace our technology and we need to really clap we're streeting every time that he announces a new piece of AI or whatever. Well he does say Richard that his parents were staying with him last week and his mom fell over and thought she'd broken her arm and they all spent eight hours in the A&E of a private hospital and when she was discharged we got a bill for 110 euros. So, but even so she was seen but I love, I mean that whole business of just your ID card and the chip and that's that just sounds very slick. Yeah and if Nectar can do it then hopefully the NHS

can. Nectar. But it's true though isn't it you can connect your Nectar card to all kinds of things Jane. It's like the world is sometimes operated by my Nectar card. Really? What do you get with your Nectar? Well it's always asking me when I if I buy something from Argos I can connect myself and obviously in Sainsbury's I'm connecting myself if I book flights with a certain airline connected just connected all over the place by nectar. But you know what I really like, and this is happening in this country, is the squeezing of that link in the medical hierarchy and chain. So you're not going to have to wait for your GP to write a letter of referral to a consultant.

You can do it yourself. Yep, you know, to then get seen or the consultant sees you and then you get to go to radiology or whatever. I think that narrowing is probably going to help an awful lot of people and just speed up the process. And then when the consultant is writing back, this broadcaster of a certain age and all those weird things they say. This wizened old baggage they do, don't they? This adorable broadcaster. This wizened old baggage. They do, don't they? This adorable broadcaster. Nobody's ever said that. Well, I'm sure they have. Stop it. Once more with feeling a tonk. Catherine is 32 and is in Northumberland. She says she's never watched Vera but you

talk about it so much it makes me wonder if maybe I should. You should start at the beginning and thoroughly enjoy it. Yeah, you will. She just wanted to say how refreshing it was, that was her view, to hear an interview with somebody from the Church of England who actually seems to believe in God and demonstrates the love of Jesus. I thought Rose Hudson Wilkin was an example of kindness, grace and compassion. So often I find that vicars and bishops portray a whimsical, gimmicky type of Christianity, but never actually talk about the gospel and how it can be a force for good.

Well, Catherine, thank you. I mean, we don't do a lot of religion on the podcast or the radio show, but we're both interested in talking to people who are exemplars of their faith. Does that make sense? Oh yes, and people who really have faith change. Yeah, and conduct themselves accordingly. Yeah, and so it kind of radiates out of them and you know they're often the warmest people you'll ever meet. And obviously Rose has that about her.

It's such a good point to make because sometimes, I mean if you only view the religious leaders of this country through the prism of the news, it's very bad Jane. It's terrible. You'd think, well that's not a club I'm going to join. Gemma says, I'm catching up with your lovely pod, so maybe somebody has brought this up already. And actually a couple of correspondents had to, but we hadn't responded to them. I really have to ask about the discussion about getting your teenagers to do their own washing. Whenever I hear people say this, I just always wonder how it actually works in a household. Does everyone just do lots of little loads on their own? This seems really inefficient.

I struggle to get a full light load at the best of times. We'll be interested to know if people think this is worthwhile. Let's deal with that immediately on the spot Gemma. I'm being a little bit forgiving of whether or not we are energy efficient on our washes or not we are energy efficient on our washes whilst my teenagers grapple with learning about synthetics versus cottons and economy washes and all of that type of stuff. Can I just make a confession? Yeah. I just use the same thing on my washing machine. Well I was just about to say there are about 15 different wash cycles on mine and I've instructed the kids to use two of them. One is for whites, one of them is for non whites and then they press the

quick button. I don't think any wash needs to go on for three hours, 37 minutes Jane. Well, no, no, but the quick wash in my experience on my machine can leave you with a very damp pile of washing. It's very difficult to try. Good Lord, I think all of your flanges need a bit of looking at. There shouldn't be any difference, should there? Well, I've noticed a difference. Extraordinary. Maybe a handy person could be in touch with us to sort that out. So Gemma, it's not really the same standard of washing that we're going in on. So you know sometimes there isn't a full load of washing but I think just in those early stages you know we've got the stabilizers on

and then we'll take the stabilizers off the foothills. And you know what they can go delicates, they can go woolens and silk, but at the moment no, synthetics, cotton, quick, press the button, off we go. I mean realistically, you're light years away from delicates and heavy soiling, aren't you? I think so. But, you know, enjoy, you'll get there. Thank you. Gemma goes on to say, this is a really interesting thing. We're asking for new topics to shove into the podcast. And actually lots of people want to talk about retirement, so we will do that. People just want me to retire. I think people are just, I think a lot of people are really enjoying their retirement so they want to tell you and through you, through the prism of

James Susan Garvey, other people, BA, please don't miss that out, that retirement can be a happy place. So we'll set sail on that this week or next week. But a quick one from Gemma. My best friend and I had our babies very close together and they've grown up pretty much as siblings with each girl close to the other mother also. And her new topic is people's thoughts on names and labels for people you are close to but not related to. So Gemma goes on to say when we're out together and I have to introduce the setup I always feel a bit put out, my friend's daughter seems a bit poor to describe someone I've been

close to since the day she was born and who I love and care deeply about and two if my friend and I were otherwise inclined would be my goddaughter. I've nicknamed her my non-negotiable between my friend and I and I quite like this but it seems a shame not to acknowledge it more. I'd like to know what you both think. Well I think it's a cracking topic to throw out there and I think you're right I think we haven't got enough names and labels for for different types of relationships and friendships. Yes, there was something I read this morning about old Scottish nicknames on, I think, the Isle of Skye dying out.

Apparently, I think, forgive me if I've got this wrong and I've picked the wrong island, but it would be a place where there were lots of family names that were shared because the population was relatively small. So as a way of distinguishing between folk, it was better to call somebody John the Redhead or, you know, Doris with the squint. No offence. You know what I mean? That doesn't really help. I'm just lobbing that into the conversation. Oh, okay. But they didn't have any kind of specialist words for relationships that were neither just this is my daughter or this is my friend. They just had nicknames that seemed at times to slightly verge on the cruel and were always linked to physical appearance. For example, I'd be Jane the short ass if it was me. But

back to that, I, it's, yes, because some people do have godchildren still, don't they? So that is, and that's clearly, well, pretty clearly well understood, isn't it, as a concept. But yes, you're right, because there will be people who are very much a part of your life, who maybe live in your street, but are far, far more than a neighbor. But you can just call them a friend. So that's okay okay isn't it? Yeah. But what about someone who's almost a part of your family as in this situation but to whom you are not related? Yep and also I think we don't have enough terms for because we you know there are so many versions of a blended family.

Now I'm not sure that you always want to describe somebody as your stepmother or stepfather, stepson, stepbrother. I think there are, and I'll be interested because I'm sure people have come up with much better expressions than that. Apart from anything else, putting step in front of something is a widening of a gap in a family, not a narrowing as one. It has so many connotations, none of them are good. I'm sure that people have found better ways of describing those, what can be incredibly fulfilling close loving relationships. So bring it on.

In informationos. Yes, please do. Now Eve is getting authoritative. I'm giving her a side eye now. She sat up in her chair and that's because I'm about to record an interview about economics. So are you? Yes? You don't need a bit more of a run up. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. On October 3rd, 1980, a bomb was detonated outside a synagogue on Copernic Street in Paris. Three decades later, French investigators finally identified a suspect in the case. A Lebanese-Canadian sociology professor living a quiet life on the outskirts of Ottawa, Canada.

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Now, over the last week or so, for obvious reasons really, when you think about the stories that have been dominating the headlines, we've been talking just in the office really about juries and about who's been on a jury, whether we think jury trials have a future in the age of social media. Because juries are meant to make their minds up based entirely on what comes before them in that courtroom. They are not supposed to search for more information about the case unfolding. However, is that realistic? And loads of countries in the world manage perfectly well without jury trials. We thought we'd ask somebody who knows all about this, a former director of public prosecutions,

Dame Alison Saunders. Dame Alison, good afternoon to you. Good afternoon. Can you tell us, I believe you are a firm fan of the jury trial, why? Why am I a firm fan? I think it's because I've seen it in practice over a number of years, so I mean my career is over the last sort of, well, probably 40 years now, far too long. But I've seen juries in action. I've seen them ask questions, which indicate that they're thinking about the case, they've understood the issues in the case, they want to know and are asking really pertinent questions that go to their decision. to know and are asking really pertinent questions that go to their decision. And I've seen them come back with verdicts where once you have heard the evidence,

and that's what they do, they listen to the evidence, they see the evidence being tested before them, and they come back with verdicts that make you think, OK, they've really listened to this, they've understood the issues and they have dealt with the case appropriately. I think they also, if you look at why we have juries, there's a big public confidence issue, I think, having juries rather than just judges who decide on verdicts. And in those jurisdictions where they tend not to have juries, it's in jurisdictions where they have inquisitorial systems

and we have an accusatorial system. So I think it's even more important in an accusatorial system where you have the defense and the prosecution presenting their cases and the jury has to decide between them. It's really important to have those independent members of the public who are able to sort of come to a conclusion having looked at all of that and heard the evidence and heard it being

tested. Okay, I would imagine that juries are intended to be a representative cross-section of the local population, are they? Because lots of people get out of jury service, some for good reasons, caring responsibilities, because they're freelance, but some just game the system a little bit. What do you think? I think it's quite difficult to game the system. I'm sure some people might try, but it is quite difficult to game it

because it's all randomly selected. It's done by computers centrally, and you have to come up with some pretty good reasons. And I've seen judges in cases where, you know, particularly where there's been a long trial that's gone on for more than a month or so, where jurors have come up with really good reasons for not being able to do it. You know, they are teachers, for example, in particularly, you know, special needs teachers who can't be replaced for example or people who run their own businesses but I've also seen judges say no to people and say no it's your civic duty you've got to make arrangements you've got to sit on the jury

so I think it's actually really hard to game the system and you can't just write a note and say I don't fancy being a jury member or I can't do it because I've got a holiday or whatever. Most of the time you're called, you've got to go to court and if you're called for a particular trial it will be up to the judge whether he or she allows you to not take part in the trial. Right, now what happened in Southport is still very much in all our minds, I think. In the end, the man responsible pleaded guilty, so the trial didn't happen. But would it honestly have been possible for a jury to approach that terrible case with a completely open mind? I think this is a really sort of difficult issue, and I think it's one that probably

becomes more acute because of the way in which we get our news, because of the way in which things are put up on the internet and stay there to some extent. So I can remember doing some trials where there had been a massive amount of publicity, lots of speculation, but the trial had been sort of a couple of years later, or a year or so later. And there were arguments around whether it was an abuse of process because of the amount of speculation and press coverage of it right at the very beginning. And in those cases, the judges have traditionally said, well, there's been a period of time, it's been sort of 12 months or more,

juries will forget all about what happened there and they're here to listen to the evidence before them. I think that's more difficult as we have, you know, the internet and everything seems to stay there forever and it's difficult sometimes to sort of work out what's true, what's not so true, but I do think it can be dealt with by judges being very, which they are, very astute to adverse publicity or things on the internet and giving those warnings to jurors. And indeed, there have been cases where jurors have been caught out doing unauthorised research, which, as you rightly said, they're not supposed to do, and either going off the jury or indeed in extreme cases being sort of penalized themselves because technically it's a contempt of court

or they may commit the criminal offense themselves. So if those warnings are given to jurors, I know it is tempting and lots of people will be tempted to look on the internet for things, but I think there are ways that you can protect, protect the integrity of the trial by doing that. If the case had gone ahead and so much evidence had been revealed in court, some of the stuff that we have subsequently learned about, is there ever a case Alison where a juror is entitled to say I'm finding this incredibly difficult, I'm not sure that my clarity of thought is entitled to say I'm finding this incredibly difficult I'm not sure that my

clarity of thought is going to be able to withstand the kind of evidence that I'm being asked to consider. I mean jurors do have they have a jury sort of Usher who's sort of assigned to look after them and they're encouraged certainly there if there are any sort of concerns to raise them with the judge and that will be done in private it won't be done in the sort of full public layer of the court so or they can send a note to the judge and say I have to say I've never come across it and I've dealt with some really awful trials where the evidence has been particularly difficult and I certainly know of at least one trial that I did where afterwards the jury were sort of offered counselling

to sort of help them because of the nature of the evidence that they'd heard. But I've never yet come across a juror who said, you know, I'm finding this really difficult. I can't sort of get that clarity of thought. And of course, that's partly what the jury deliberations are about because once you're sort of get that clarity of thought. And of course, that's partly what the jury deliberations are about, because once you're sort of into the process of sort of deliberating, they will be in their room,

just them, and we'll be able to talk about it. And so that's part of the jury deliberation is to sort of discuss the case, discuss the evidence. Some people will have very different views of it at the beginning, and it evidence. Some people will have very different views of it at the beginning. And it's about coming to a conclusion as a jury, hopefully 12 members. So you have that sort of unanimous verdict,

but it could be a majority one. But that I think in itself probably helps the clarity of thought. Does that surprise you, Alison? Because obviously you've chosen to do what you do and the people who are involved with the legal process have made that choice about their careers. But if you're a juror called up for your civic duty

and actually you do end up witnessing such a dark side of life, I don't know, are you entitled to kind of go, do you know what, that's just too much for me? Well, I think it's, I do think it is, and I do believe it's a civic, we all want to have a society where the rule of law is key, where we can feel safe, we can feel secure.

And it matters to all of us that we have a functioning criminal justice system. And I think if it's a civic duty that we should, there are very few things that we oblige citizens to do. But I think if a civic duty is that you take part as a sort of member of a jury and you listen to a case and you come to a conclusion with your other jurors, so it's never just one person on their own,

then I think that is fair enough. And I think there's lots of support and help that jurors can get during the process, which I think will really sort of make it as easy as possible. And of course, the majority of the cases are not like the Southport case. That's the reassuring thing is that, you know, the majority of cases that people will get called up to do for jury duty is might be sort of thefts or frauds or assaults. And the one thing going back to the point about not having clarity, the point there is that

it's incumbent upon the court and the prosecutor and the defence advocates to make it clear what the case is about, because if you can't make the case clear, how is anyone going to understand it? How do members of the public understand it? How does the defendant understand it? So that's been a real sort of shift, I think, over the last So that's been a real sort of shift, I think, over the last at least 20 odd years, is that trials have got shorter and everyone has developed a better way of making clear what the alleged criminality is and what the evidence is. The job of Director of Public Prosecutions, I think most people would agree, was probably a hiding to nothing and the CPS has had a lot of criticism lately in the wake of what happened in Southport and what do you make of the suggestion that you or the CPS actually because I know you're no longer involved but the CPS created what some people have called an information vacuum after what happened in a way facilitating the environment

that led to those those riots What do you think about that? I think it is really hard and I can see where the sort of criticism comes from, but I think it's, you know, as the prosecutor, you have to make sure that the trial is fair. And the worst thing that could possibly happen is that you say anything as a prosecutor, which causes a trial to be derailed.

And at that early investigative stage, it's really difficult to know possibly what might derail the trial or to know what's true and what wouldn't derail the trial. So you err on the side of caution because you want to be fair to everyone in the case, that's the victims, the families, the public and the defendant. So I think it is really difficult to know exactly what you can say and this has been one of the tensions that I think has grown particularly with social media because social media is so immediate and things are out there before you can even sort of think about it almost. And certainly before investigators and prosecutors have had time to sort of analyse things and decide whether or not this is something that's going to be an

important part of the trial or not, or is going to be disputed part of the trial or not. So I do think this is going to be something that will occur again, and is something that certainly, you know, the CPS now will I'm sure be thinking about and thinking how they can deal with this. Yeah and when we attempt as a society to combat extremism, I mean this is so difficult now, the idea that there should be a focus on quotes concerning behaviors rather than ideologies that we may at least be somewhat dimly aware of, but at least we're aware of the ideologies. How on earth do we go about this?

This is trying to nail jelly to a wall, isn't it? It's, and I think the sort of, you know, the response that the government have made today to that report, I think is probably the most sensible one. And it is really difficult. I mean, it's difficult enough as it is, and you don't want to go into a sort of thought police environment, so it is about behaviours and about where they go, so and you know sometimes behaviours are just inexplicable, you know nobody can understand it, nobody

understands why people do things sometimes. Thank you very much, I think we'll probably leave it there because it seems like a good point to leave it but interesting stuff. Thank you very much indeed for your time. Sometimes Alison is right, surely it is just inexplicable. We'll never understand. Dame Alison Saunders, who was the Director of Public Prosecutions. And do let us know what you think. The email address is jaynandphi at times.radio And we'll also take all of your thoughts about what you're doing in retirement we're always keen to hear about other national health services and that's it from Jane the Short-Arts and to the end of another Off Air with Jane and

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