Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Just one more decade out in the wild (with Louise Penny)

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Jane joins us from sheltered housing and finds herself tempted by the slow life... Fi brings her back down to earth with topics like poaching or braising, cat CPR, and travelling parrots. Plus, crime-fiction author Louise Penny discusses her latest novel 'The Black Wolf'. You can listen to our 'I've got the house to myself' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2MkG0A4kkX74TJuVKUPAuJ We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm just prising open a satsuma, trying to get some vitamin C. Okay. Jane joins us this week from a safe house where she is being kept away from prying eyes due to ongoing difficulties that she's having with President Trump. It's not that at all, is it? You are joining us. from the sheltered housing that your parents live in. And I think I'm just going to hand it over to you to paint the scene that you have in front of you, please, in the very best week seven radio training style. Oh, no, you know, I'm not very good at describing things.

Look, all people need to know is I'm in the kitchen. My dad has been put in another room. He's slightly reluctant, but prepared to go along with it. He thought it was starting at 11. he's a bit disconcerted that it hasn't started to 11, so we're a little bit. As far as he's concerned, we're running late except we're not. So I'm planning to have, well, I'd like to sort of just disappear into a vat of gin at some point in the relatively near future, but it's not on the cards right now. It's supposed to say, hospital visiting this afternoon, and just out

of interest, it is film night tomorrow in the sheltered housing fee. And I don't know if you fancy coming along. It's a John Grisham film. Is it? Well, I wouldn't mind a John Grisham film. Which one are they showing? It's the client. Oh, I love the client. Oh, well, there you go. So it starts at 7 o'clock. Okay. Well, that's, do you what, I'm surprised it's so late, because that it'll be probably coming in, I mean, it's an old film, isn't it? So it'll be normal kind of one hour, 40 minutes. But does that give enough turnaround time? to get ready for bed? Yes.

Well, to be honest, it really suits me. I should be tucked up by 9.25. I mean, let's face it, Jane. Existentially, you checked into sheltered housing a long time ago. That is actually true. Everything about it suits you. It's one of the issues is, I could do this. I know you can.

You may never come back. But, yeah, yeah. There is a but. I think perhaps I could just do, please let me have just another decade out in the wild, maybe five years, but yeah, that would be. Definitely. Would it be, and you've just got to say if these questions have become too much, but do you know who the youngest person is in sheltered housing at the moment? I don't, I have no idea actually. I know that you can live in this particular environment over the age of 55. See, that's so funny, isn't it? Yeah. Well, or is it? I mean, I guess there's 55 and 55. Look, some people through no fault of their own at all are, you know, in poor health at 55.

And it would be a restful environment. Well, not that restful, as the film night indicates. But, you know, it's quite, it's, you know what, it's just so peaceful. It's so peaceful. Apart from the sound of other people's flat screen tellies, you can't hear anything. That is a bit of an issue

because obviously a lot of people are a trifle hard of hearing. So if they're watching pointless Do you know what it's the abiding memory That I have of visiting my granny In her nursing home And it was a proper nursing home actually By the time she was in her mid-90s And all of the doors had to stay open

At certain times during the day And as you walk down the corridor All you heard were just blaring TVs And really weirdly not in sync Even though it would have been the same programme They were all kind of slightly out and the TVs were a very, you know, quite a long way away from the, you know, the bed or the chair that the occupants were in. So as well as being deaf, they were just incredibly, incredibly loud.

It's a weird thing, isn't it? And people aren't using the headphones? No, no, they're a headphone resistant. And unlike our offspring, you all use subtitles despite having good hearing. The people, older folk, tend to go through the high volume option. Let's leave it there. Well, look, you could check in there. I could check in there. I mean, we could, we could, if it, if it becomes, you know, a very, very regular thing for you to be there, I'm more than happy to come up, spend a night in Ray's spare room. Well, you'll be spending your night with, with me, so I'm not sure you would.

Is it twin bed? Just one bed. Is it twin beds? Quite a small double feet. You wouldn't like it. Oh my God, no. No, we're not that kind couple. No. Anyway, is your mum doing, okay? That's the most. important thing. It's just, as anybody has been through this, we'll know, it's just a very, very long road. And I'm not trying to be funny about long roads and hip replacements, but there's an enormous amount of physical effort involved. And, you know, it's properly, properly tough. What I would love to hear from people is just their experience of, I don't know, the knackering nature of hospital visiting. And I know lots of people will be able to relate to this. But

It shouldn't be so tiring, but it really, really is because it's so hard to be absolutely honest about it to think what to say. After a while, I mean, look, I can talk, but after about 10 minutes, you've just used every scrap of news you can think of. And yeah, it's just not easy. It really isn't easy. And you come home and absolutely, I'm a spent force. So, yes, Any advice anyone has for making a hospital visit more bearable for everybody involved, including the person being visited, I would love to hear it. I really would. I'm quite patient.

I don't mind just sitting still and just being. But there's, I don't know, how much silence is actually tolerable. I don't know. These are all questions. I'm just hurling out there. I think just being there is probably the most important thing, isn't it? I'm hoping so. Very much so.

No, very much so. and I'm sure that people will have fantastic suggestions I can send you our 1,000 piece Shakespeare in the Globe jigsaw if you'd like to start that and I've been doing a clear out of one of the cupboards in our sitting room and I found a whole basket full of kind of crocheted stuff

that at one point we must have been enthusiastic about and then decided not to be enthusiastic about it and you're very welcome to start crocheting if you want either of those of any interest to you. So I could go in and do crafts whilst being mindful and being there. Yes, not a bad idea. Just something to keep your hands busy. Yeah. So I think it's just, and to do it kind of with somebody. Anyway, people will have decent suggestions. You could also, does your mum like a bit of scrabble? No. Oh, no. She's like, well, she, she, she, she played whist, but I don't think,

she's not in the mood. It's, it's, yeah, it's just, it's just not easy to get over an operation. I don't think of that nature at, I'll be honest, at 91. No, not cool. I mean, some people manage it. It's just not easy. You just need real guts, actually. And I'm not suggesting that some people don't have guts. But you know what I mean?

It's just tough. And I have to say, the time of year is really. Oh, it's just horrible, Jane. I mean, it's dreadful. I don't know what Crosby is like today, but London is just grey. It's full of drizzles. It's got a low-hanging cloud.

There's nothing good to say about today at all, apart from the fact that you and I are no longer at the BBC. That is a conversation that we can move on to. Just while we're talking about Scrabble, though, because a couple of people have emailed in. Yes, so Helen says, Fee mentioned playing Scrabble on a device. We play on my old iPad,

but wanted also to be able to play alone on my mobile. But Mattel, who owned Scrabble, have apparently sold the game, which is now Scrabble Go, and utterly infuriating after playing your turn against the computer the screen fills with ads which are hard to remove

as the X isn't visible I have to click the home button to get out of the game well I was having that problem myself Helen and it's just infuriating isn't it the one that I'm playing at the moment

I think is though the Scrabble Mattel one so it's Scrabble exclamation mark TM but I've invested in the premium Helen it's £2.69 a month. And I thought for the amount

that I'm playing at the moment, that is definitely definitely worth it. And then you don't have any ads coming up at all. And also they've got this really weird thing, Jane, where you can go back into the game after you've played it. And you can examine every single word that you put down. And the computer tells

you all of the other words that you could have got. And I'm playing it against my boyfriend. And we have never managed to get off the bottom rung on that ladder. We are all putting down the worst word in any circumstance. It's really, it's really debilitating and very depressing. But we...

It shows you're well-suited, doesn't it? You're a good match. That's nice. That's a nice way of putting it. It's a little bit passive-aggressive. But yes. So it's £2.69, Helen. I mean, you know, I hope that that's within your means.

I think it's well worth it, especially if you're playing every day. And it does make it less infuriating. I didn't think you were allowed to put ads up that you couldn't get rid of at all but I suppose you can do anything, can't you? On Tintanet. We're dead against ads here. No, we don't like ads and ads and ads and ads and ads

that you have to listen to before content. What's a terrible thing that would be. Really move off that and onto the BBC. So I'm sure you had the same experience, Jane. So when the news broke of the resignations of Tim Davy and Deborah Terness on Sunday night, I mean, I just thought I thought the world had ended.

My phone just, but, but, but, but, but, but, but it was, it was a very, it was a very big thing, actually, wasn't it? And I think as, as the news kind of settles in and the billion dollar lawsuit that Donald Trump is threatening the BBC with, these are extraordinary times. Well, yeah, well, they are extraordinary times, because were the names like, I don't know, Alistair Mill and Michael Checkland and John Burr. known to current American presidents? I mean, I don't think they wouldn't have known them from Joe Soap, would they? But there must be a certain, there must be a little part of Mr. Davy. There's just a tiny bit excited to find himself in the line of sight of Donald Trump. It's just so peculiar and weird.

And look, you and I were both acknowledged. The BBC's made some absolute clangers over the many years that we were associated with. Some terrible mistakes. some appalling behaviour tolerated for far too long from all sorts of odious individuals and some poor judgments as well. But let's just agree that any situation that allows Donald Trump to emerge

as some kind of heroic protector of the truth, that's just crazy. And that just makes me so cross. I completely agree. I mean, it's been such an own goal and it does allow him to stand on a platform and genuinely say fake news and my huge worry is that it surely means in terms of how Donald Trump is reported

that there are numerous caveats put in that nobody felt the need to put in before and we didn't feel the need to put them in before because the guy has just accused veracity of being invisible in so many circumstances where it's just not true you know nearly every media outlet that has hasn't agreed with him or has criticised him, has had the label of fake news thrown at it. But this time, it's true. I mean, it really is. It's just awful, isn't it?

Yeah, that's the bit that I just find so, so dispiriting. And it's just an open goal for all the BBC's critics and all the people who love to hate it and all the people who want to bring it down. And we don't want the BBC to whither at all. and I just but I do feel very frustrated and actually a bit sad about it all I don't know I mean we have had some gratifying emails well I saw too suggesting that you and I could perhaps do a kind of job share be difficult for me at running the enterprise from here but hey I'd give it a whirl would anything entice you to apply for a job of that nature at that level at this time

no and it would be very interesting to see who does throw that hat into the rear. Because the level of scrutiny now, I think, is unbelievable, isn't it? And scrutiny is a good thing. Scrutiny is a very, very healthy thing. But I think as one person expected to have oversight on such an enormous corporation now, with all of its tangled webs into streaming and, you know, receiving social media and all of that kind of stuff, I don't know how anybody would have the bandwidth really to know that they could be confident about doing that job but somebody will and very best of luck to them.

I think personally there should be three or four director generals. I think there should be a whole kind of flanks of people in charge not just one person so that actually that oversight can be done a little bit better. It does keep on failing, doesn't it? It probably would be no bad thing if the next person in charge is a journalist I think that was always one of the things

that people used to throw at Tim Davy that, well, he wasn't a journalist and that left him slightly exposed, I think. But also, Sophie, it could be a lady. Think of that. Well, I did read a piece last night about the likely candidates and the people who were asked last time around

and they are nearly all of the lady persuasion. Yes, yes. Well, it would be a change. They've never had one. Yeah, I think they've got to, really. I think that would be good. And I'm just going to leave this here and people can fume or they can get on the email if they want to.

But I think women are very, very good at multitasking. And I think we're very good at making a decision in the moment. I leave that there. Okay. Right. Who's going to take issue with that? You don't expect me to, do you? No, not at all.

But I think some people will say that that is a little bit kind of gender biased, but I'm just going to leave it there. I'll just move on seamlessly to an email from Olivia in Hampshire, who just wants to comment on my experience of buying shares. I've been close to emailing so many times. What prompted my email today was your chat about investing and Jane disclosing the check she had from delivery for the shares. I had to pause the podcast and rewind so I could play that part back to my mother, currently staying with me, to declare, see, I wasn't the only idiot who bought £500 worth of delivery shares during lockdown, having received exactly the same check as Jane the previous week.

Right, Olivia, I take comfort in that, and I hope your mother was also happy to hear that, as you point out there, you weren't the only idiot, because I was an idiot too. And, yeah, I'm just glad that I'm in company. You didn't buy delivery shares, did you? You went from, was it rent a kill? It was renticle because I thought there'd be some plagues after we had COVID. I just thought it's all coming at us. So that's how my share logic went.

But really weirdly, Jane, and I, you know, this is the universe sending us signs. So we had that conversation about plagues. We then had a conversation about your ex-husband. but not being able to deal with mice. I've always really prided myself on having a mouse-free house on account of the extraordinary number of cats who live there.

And I went to open the kitchen cupboard yesterday to get Nancy's food out, which is stored in a great big kind of tub under the sink. And there were two little mice just having their dinner. Just say, oh, they were eating. They weren't playing. They were just having a snack.

So I think they pop into Nancy's food pretty much every day. I mean, imagine that is the, that is like arriving in an all-inclusive resort and just being given free access to the buffet all day long, isn't it? Yeah, you don't have to wear the riff band either. You don't know. No,

no, you don't have to listen to boring Barry from Hartford tell you about his journey there. And so I just thought this is incredible, you know, I've talked about it. It's like the algorithm thing, you know, when you're talking about something, then your phone starts chucking adverts at you. We've been talking

about mice and there were the mice. So obviously, I phoned your ex-husband. He didn't take the calls. I don't know why. Well, he could come around and just scream. So it was a company of a sort. He could be so weird, isn't it? Because they're so tiny. And as soon as they saw me, this looming great big thing, they disappeared. And I thought, don't be scared of that. That's just pathetic. But I am. I get it. Now, have you watched Riot Women? No. Okay. So I have now watch two episodes. And Michelle says, I fully acknowledge your concerns about riot women for a Sunday evening show. I resisted. But due to a nasty bug I had, I had to sit and rest, so I went in there. And honestly, she thinks it's brilliant. She says the standout performance, though, is

Rosalie Craig. And the writer, Sally Wainwright, gives her some exquisite lines that hit you in the heart. Each character is having their own challenges. I wish I had it to look forward. to, says Michelle. Thank you, Michelle. I will watch the rest of it without a shadow of doubt. There's absolutely no way that my dad would like it. So while I'm here, it's not going to be on the agenda, but I'm very much going to return to it because Michelle's right. There are some amazing lines. It does punch you in the gut at times. And I've got to be honest, I also see why some people have said, why are all the men so inadequate? And also, some people have said, why are all these middle-aged women completely batty when not every middle-aged woman is batty? And I get that,

but I found much to enjoy. So I'm definitely going to finish it. Excellent. Can I just chuck into the mix? We've started watching All Her Fault, which is a thriller available on the Now channel. and it is superb, Jane, really, really superb. And I don't really get why nobody is talking about it at all. It's based on a book by Andrea Marr, and it stars the amazing Sarah Snoke. Is that how you say her name? Snook, Snoke? Eve's nodding, she doesn't really mind.

We'll take Snoke or Snook. And it's an eight-parter. It's about every parent's worst nightmare of a child going missing at the start. I will say, you're kind of okay if people are thinking I could never watch. that you're kind of going to be okay spoiler alert but no

it's superbly twisty and dark but also it just portrays that time of early parenting and getting to grips with the massive change in your life but then also entering the school playground

and that kind of interaction between mums who've got one child moms who've got three kids moms who still work moms who have nannies it is really some of the dialogue in it is fantastically astute and the men

playing their husbands are brilliant as well. There's some really really realistic stuff going down in that. So I would highly recommend that. You do need your streaming subscription though. But you know, right women's on the BBC and we may all need a subscription

to that in future. A little political point being made there. Beautifully done. Now can we clear something up? Comes in from Ruth and I think we've had just a couple of emails about this, but I think you can clear this up because it was something that was said in the interview with Lady Glenn Connor.

So Ruth says, I listened in horror as Lady Glenn Connor was allowed to say she advises domestic abuse victims to, if they can, stick it out or if it's too dangerous, leave. I'm an adult child whose childhood was spent in a domestic abuse situation, and I would never have described the abuse.

as a complicated man. I lived on high alert a symptom I carry on into adulthood waiting for that particular way a door is slammed anticipating the next row. I wish my mother had left well before my 23rd birthday.

My brother and I could have been spared some of this situation and am still not feeling the after effects in our late 50s. I feel too much deference was given to her due to her social standing.

So shall we tackle that because I know that you've interviewed Lady Glenn Connor a couple of times and have the ultimate respect for her and that is a life she has lived and has been thoughtful when she's talked about it before. So do you think there's something in this interview that was just a bit different or maybe has just been taken a bit differently?

Yeah, do you know, obviously I can't speak for her and I probably should have, I should actually have picked up on that at the time. And what I would say is that I'm not deferential because of her class, although she'd be the first person to admit, of course, that a large part of her appeal is her class. And the stories that she can tell about. And the stories, yeah. I mean, she drops those names.

And she's incredibly clever at telling you a little bit so that you feel that you might know something. But in fact, when you analyse it later, you realise she's actually been wonderfully, wonderfully discreet, actually in her own way. She's very clever. She probably doesn't realize how clever she is. I'm not entirely certain

that she quite meant that. And she also, I think I might have called late husband, Colin Tennant, complicated. She herself said he was dangerous. So I think that tells you all you need to know, really. I don't think she meant stick it out if you're being,

I mean, hideously treated day and day out. I think she probably meant it, if I'm honest, in the old school stiff up a lip, one puts one's best foot forward kind of a way. And I'm not defending that stance at all because obviously you shouldn't doubt. Or perhaps, did you think she meant that if you still feel it is within your capability to be there? Well, but as the emailer points out, it's not, if you have children, it's not just you in the line of fire, isn't it? It's an entire. childhood ruined. So I, yes, I completely take that criticism, to be honest, I'm not,

I'm not going to push back on that. I think I ought to have said something at that point to say, or just a moment. Because, I mean, she does say in the interview that she had, she self-identified as somebody who was vulnerable because she was already working with Erin Pitsy at her refuge in West London. So she knew there was a problem and she wanted to help other people who were as vulnerable as she was. Yeah. But also, Jane, I think when you're interviewing people, you know, I don't think that you should take too much of the blame yourself

because I think it's very difficult, isn't it, to challenge somebody's version of their own life that they are willing to tell you. And it is always a generous position for a woman who has been in an abusive situation to tell the world about that. I mean, it's hard and it is, I think, usually dumb because there is a desire to help other women and it's that courage speaking to courage, isn't it? So, you know, I don't think it is always on you as the interviewer to say you're kind of wrong to say that.

But I think it was just worth airing that from Ruth because, of course, that was going to be a really difficult interview to listen to if that's your experience yourself. So, you know, we send kind thoughts, Ruth, and also, you know, always email us if you do think that there are problematic little bits and pieces. We don't need to have our fur always stroke the right way. No, no, absolutely not. Lady Glenn Conner is, she is impressive.

She has lived through some really, really, I mean, well, two of her sons have died. It doesn't get much worse. But also what I will say is that she broke her back, quite recently. And she was obviously in a lot of pain for quite some time, but she's moving brilliantly. And the sheer determination of the woman is just remarkable. It really, really is. So actually, no wonder the queen lets her have the occasional light supper with the king, because I imagine they probably have great conversations. And despite everything that's happened to her,

She kind of a conversation with a slightly lightens the lightens your load. So she's just one of, she's a, what's that expression about radiators and, yeah, it warms up a room. What would you serve for a light midweek supper with a monarch? Oh, no, hang on. I'd braise, oh no, what would I? So this is fantastic. You'd braze something.

My go-to, I would poach. I'll poach something. Yeah, we're both thinking of something just in raised water temperature. Nothing too spicy. Just an egg. Yeah, we're both thinking of something just in raised water temperature. Nothing too spicy. Exactly.

Sorry, I just put a bit of satsuma chump in there. That's very rude. I'll do a longer email so you can swallow in peace. Yes, I will, I will. Okay, it's in Dublin. It's my first time email. but I felt compelled to after Fee's mention of bringing her beautiful Barbara to the vet to get groomed. When I was younger, I had a cat called Crunchy, who was ginger, long-haired and humongous.

He did have an uncanny resemblance to a certain lasagna-loving cartoon character. Now, who is that? Lassania-loving? Yes. Garfield. Oh, Eve's just found me in Garfield. Thank you. After about a year or two of adopting him, my parents took him to the vet to tackle his matted knots,

expecting it to be a simple procedure. However, it transpired that Crunchy was allergic to the sedative and his heart stopped. The groomer was luckily on site at the vets and they were able to do mouth to mouth and cat CPR and bring him back to life. As I was a child at the time, my parents didn't tell me any of this

until after Crunchy was back at home and very much still alive. From then on, out of some sense of guilt, I think, the groomer came to our home once a year and with all hands on deck, she groomed Crunchy without any sedative. His fur was always a bit choppy, and she left his tail and legs unshaven, so he resembled something of a duster.

The lovely groomer also brought Cabri's crunchy chocolate bars for me and my sister. His experience with death made him into an even more placid and loving cat, and he's still very much missed four years on. Well, Kate, I mean, I'm sorry that he's no longer with you. What an extraordinary life, Crunchy has led. But also, mouth to mouth and cat CPR. Now, these are things that you and I should learn just in case they're needed, Jane.

Well, you go first, and then if I have an issue, you've got more cats, so it's more of a responsibility for you, I think, actually. How you can't do CPR and a cat, can you? Well, mouth to mouth. I mean, I suppose you can. I don't think I'd want to. No, I'm not doing that. I just wanted to mention this from Margie,

who actually also, she was interested in what Lady Glenn Connor said about her speed awareness courses. Now, she's done, I think she said she'd done four. I've done two. How many have you done? I think I've done four as well. Oh, my goodness. Okay, right. Margie says she actually enjoyed the first one she did because it wasn't in-person one.

Oh, the Zoom ones, yeah. Yeah, the Zoom ones are torturous, yeah. Well, they're torturous, but you can work out a way of doing something at the same time, whilst also ingesting all the very useful information. I gave myself a light pedicure under the table, but I was still listening, Jay. Well, I hope so. And you haven't done one since,

so it suggests that that time the information got through to you, thank goodness. But Margie just says at one point in the first speed awareness course that she enjoyed, the instructor asked, hang on, I'm just reading these emails on my phone, I hope that's not obvious. The course instructor asked, what might distract you when you are driving. Now, amidst the expected answers, squabbling children,

something happening on the road, etc., came the bizarre reply from an older gentleman who said, when I'm driving with my parrot in the car, he sometimes gets excited and does flap his wings in front of me. Right. Okay, I mean, don't, you shouldn't take your parrot out on, well, surely he's just, who needs to take a parrot in a car? You shouldn't be doing that, no.

No, I mean, parrots can fly. If they need to get somewhere, they can get themselves there, presumably. I mean, that's just bizarre. Isn't it just? Yeah, isn't it just? We are closing the cone hotline. No more cones of shame, please. We've got so many cones of shame.

They've been absolutely gorgeous and wonderful. And if you want to just cheer yourself up, if you just head to our Instagram, which is just Jane and Fee, then you can see some wonderful ones. Just a couple of quick helloes, though. Rachel is literally a woman built in our own image. Thank you. As a 55-year-old with teenagers, young adult offspring,

cats, a dog and poorly parents, your podcast strikes a chord daily. I was literally driving home from the vets last week when you mentioned cats and coats. So here is my gorgeous kitty Tinkerbell, who's very cross with me for putting her in this ensemble. They are simply the best for post-stop recovery, though, with very best wishes to both you

and your wonderful team and Rachel even works at Winchester Cathedral how spooky is that So there is gorgeous Tinkerbell We also just need to say hello to Angela who sent a picture of her cat This is Jasper after his lion cut

And he's been shaved But just leaving a very bushy tail And a very bushy face And he just does look incredibly odd And a little bit humiliated If you don't mind me saying Angela And also just a very big Hello to Hannah, who has sent us her Cones of Shame photograph of Sid, who died in August.

And your dad, who passed away very recently. It is such a beautiful picture, Hannah, and I really hope that you're doing okay. And your dad's got a lovely, lovely smile on his face, and Sid doesn't. So I'm really sorry that you've lost so many loved ones in such a short period of time. So we send you our very, very best. That's really tough. In fact, honestly, those images have really gladdened my heart over the last couple of weeks, actually. I've really enjoyed them.

So thank you to everybody who took part in that. Is there a guest in this podcast, V? Jane, it's so kind of you to ask. Yes, there absolutely is. So the wildly successful, and a wildly, wildly successful crime writer, I was just saying to Eve before you joined the line for the podcast, that Eve has done such amazing work. I was looking up crime writers and, you know, the kind of top ten in sales and all of that kind of stuff.

And Eve over the last four years, Jane, has booked seven out of ten of the most successful crime writers who are still around at the moment. So the all-time great crime writer is Agatha Christie. I think she's sold over a billion books. Well, why haven't Eve got there? And then we head to George Semenon and then we head to James Patterson. But all of the others have appeared on this podcast. Isn't that mind-boggling? Yeah.

So well done to Eve. And today we welcome into our lair, the wonderful Canadian crime writer Louise Penny. 18 million books sold, translated into 30 languages. And when the latest installment in the life and crime times of Chief Inspector Armand Gamash is published, the books go straight to the top of the bestseller lists here in the US and particularly in her native Canada, Armand is a delightful chap to spend time with calm and wise. He does human frailty and strength in equal measure. And he's not just plucked from Louise Penny's imagination.

He shares a lot of the characteristics of her late husband Michael, who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in the 2000s and died in 2016. Now Penny came to writing relatively late. Her first book Still Life was published in 2005 when she was 45 and it took quite a few rejections before a publisher took her up. on. And those books are now full of politics and the search for truth, often revolving around the rural community of three pines with its bistro and hot cinnamon buns, but corruption, greed and murder play out. The Black Wolf is the 20th novel in the series. It's about climate change,

the force of a neighbouring state and a lust for power. And at the beginning of the book, there's an interesting author's note, where Louise notes that she wrote the book in 2024, only to find in 2025 real-life headlines about America's desire to take over Canada that had become very much a reality. That was a shock and that was what President Trump started saying about Canada and that Canada should be a 51st state. And that's one of the plot points in my book that not for the same reasons that he's described. He's describing trying to bring Canada to our knees financially and making it necessary for us to join the United States. It's very difficult to tell whether he's serious or not. But in my book, there is a progression that makes

it clear that this is not outrageous. However, when I wrote that, wrote the book, I did sort of think, have I gone too far? Is anyone going to believe this? And it turns out I didn't go far enough. Yeah. I mean, this is a lighthearted fantasy by comparison. to the reality. But there is so much politics with a small P in all of your writing because what you're looking at is injustice, what you're looking at is the fight between good and bad. So actually to have it writ large on the political with a capital P horizon,

does it make your job easier or harder? I think it does make it easier. It makes it easier in the writing because, as I said, you just follow what seems to be from one possibility to the next to the next to the next. You come to this conclusion, as I did in the book. It makes it more difficult doing things like this to talk about what's happening now, to state my political beliefs, to take a political stand as well, to come out of the shape. shadows and stand in some glaring spotlights. So that then became a moral decision on my part that had to be faced.

But the actual writing of it, this particular book didn't make it more difficult. And as you said, though, all of the books really have, or many of the books, particularly the last, I would say, since book six, have had political elements to it. Do you think that there's anybody listening who still needs an explanation of three pines? What I'm talking about? Well, I mean, you are one of the world's most successful crime writers.

It is true. It is true. It is true. Yeah. Yes, let me tell you a little bit about three pines. I mean, clearly you know. Thank you so much. Three pines is a village in Quebec, south of Montreal, close to the Vermont border. It's a fictional village.

I, before I started writing, was very taken with Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Isabella Allende and magical realism. So I knew I wanted to create a village that was both felt very real and very recognizable, very approachable, but at the same time have an element of mystique about it. For instance, it's described as not on any map. The GPS only ever shows people that they're wandering. into a wilderness and then this village appears

that it's only ever found by people lost and that was again that's that wasn't just a turn of phrase that sounded interesting that was absolutely planned because we all need a harbor we all feel lost

we all feel wounded at times and we need that safe place and that's why I created three pines as that that harbor not as you know physically safe thankfully because murders do happen there

and we can never guarantee physical safety anywhere 9-11 proved that 7-7 proved that but we can guarantee emotional safety and we do it by having a community around us and that's while the books are very much about crime and crime novel

and corruption and terror and all the things that go with it at their heart they are about belonging Now you say that Three Pines is a fictional place But my stepmother has just been to Canada and Quebec And she told me that she'd been to Three Pines Where's she been? Oh dear, maybe well I won't say

But are the villages that can legitimately claim To kind of be free pines? Absolutely right, yes I would like to know where she was But it's loosely based on the village I live in which is Knowlton, Quebec, but also inspired by other villages in the area. For many years, I traveled around. I was with the CBC, and I traveled every two years with my job,

moved up the ladder as a CBC journalist and host. But I found myself getting more and more disconnected and, frankly, quite lonely. I didn't have roots. I had a lot of acquaintances, no deep friendships. And I found that very painful. And I realized that I needed to find home. And I didn't know where that would be.

So I ended up, as a child, I was very happy in Quebec. So I thought I'll go back to Quebec and maybe find a home. I lived in Quebec City for a while to learn French. Then I moved to Montreal, met Michael, moved south to this tiny little village. And that's where I found home. And that's what the books are about. They're about home. And it's inspired by that desire to find home.

And how much of Michael would we as the reader find in your main protagonist in your books? A great deal. I think if you saw a photo of Michael and you'd read the books, you wouldn't necessarily say, oh, that's Armand physically a little bit but not so much. But certainly in every other way in character. Armand is a happy man It's very unusual in crime fiction to have this character who is content

He's happy, he's the adult in the room He has the he's the tiller, the hand on the tiller And he's a happy man Not because he's just a little bit too stupid To know how cruel the world is He sees it every day But he chooses to be happy And he has that in common with Michael

Michael was the head of hematology at the Montreal Children's Hospital which made him the doctor you don't want to meet and he had to tell young parents things no young parent should ever have to hear he sat beside the children held their hands into the night and yet he was happy because those children taught him what a gift life is

and what a betrayal it would be for those of us who get to live life if we don't live it with courage, with integrity, with joy, with gratitude. Michael was filled with gratitude that he got to live and live fully. And the same with Armand. Do you mind me asking about how you deal with that creatively when you've lost somebody you love, but you have put part of them on the page?

And we, your readers, expect you to carry on writing about that character. Is it painful or does it, bring you comfort? Michael was diagnosed with dementia and died a number of a few years later. I didn't think I'd be able to write after losing him. I thought it would be just too painful

after losing my armand. But then it became, it was clear to me. I thought I will take a year off. And I took a couple of months off. And then I found myself back at the laptop and just sort of noodling around, just trying it a little bit and I went back into three pines and I wrote a scene in the bistro and that was so comforting and then then our ma appeared and I realized that Michael is immortal now

I can visit him any time so tomorrow morning I'm going to be back writing the book and and being with Michael. Does it matter to you if readers join your amazing back catalogue kind of at any old number or do you think actually it is one of those series where the reader benefits from going all the way back to 2005 and still like this is the 20th anniversary well let me turn it around because I know you've read the books what do you think I love Armand and I'm so sorry that my accent isn't as good as yours I just going to have to go Armand I think what I've really loved about him is that he is a fictional figure to whom lots of things have happened in life and actually in crime fiction often the character stays the same

you might not know whether jack reacher is 42 52 52 22 22 or 32 in the book that you join him in but i think armand has been on a journey so i think actually it is one of those back catalogs that you should start at the very beginning and work your way through i don't think it would matter if you got kind of 13 and 14 muddled up but I think you should start. But do you disagree? And of course you can because you've written the book.

No, I don't. I'm so glad you said that because I do feel badly because people are listening to this and book 20 is coming out and we're telling them to go all the way back to book one. But borrow it from a friend,

take it out of the library, big supporter of libraries, get it second hand, do buy it from your independent. Yes, I think there is such an evolution not just of Armand but of the other characters too and that was important for me too

I think one of the problems I heard that Christi the Christie had grew tired of Poirot I'm not sure if that's true or not but that's kind of the myth and I think one of the reasons is he never evolved he was essentially the same in the mysterious affair at Stas

the first one with the very last one he never got married he never had children he never really had an affair nothing nothing so I wanted to have a character who would grow with me and I think that's what's making him make it the series still alive for me and him still of interest to me

we should talk a bit about the book without giving away the plot of the book because obviously it is tough isn't it but you're a talented professional at this so you're going to be able to do it but there's so much in here isn't there I mean one of the huge threads of all of your writing and particularly in this is our need to love planet Earth,

our need to look at what is happening if you take your eye off the ball and don't appreciate nature. And as you've alluded to already in the interview, there are forces at work looking at Canada, praying on Canada, that don't have nature at its heart, do they? It's a look at what happens when you have a great deal and your neighbor has next to nothing

and your neighbor has what you want and needs what you want what happens I think we can guess what happens Canada is resource rich that was something that was once mocked now the resource rich nations are becoming the apex nations

what happens when your neighbor to the south is running out of those resources and that's what this is about and it's also it's a call to awareness it's a call to action for Canada as well as the United States because I can see the time when very distressing things will happen. Is Mark Carney doing a good job? We like to think of him as a little bit of our own agrees,

but actually he does belong to you. And I mean, it was, you can't imagine actually that Mark Carney would have thought five years ago that he would be Prime Minister. He would be Prime Minister of Canada. No. Well, I think he's doing a much better job than the conservative would have done.

It's an interesting, I'm a supporter of his, big supporter. I would not make a very good politician because I am pretty sure we'd be at war by now if I was. Because, I mean, I think we should stand up to the bully. I think we should say no more oil, no more water, no more rare earth minerals, nothing goes across the border. And like immigrants who come to a new country and sacrifice their generation for the next,

that's what we will be doing. My generation will be sacrificing for the next generation as we resituate our economy and find other outlets. You say that nothing will go across the border. I mean, you won't go across the border to publicize this book, will you? No, no, no, no, I won't. I'm refusing to go into the States until

this travesty ends so I didn't do a tour my American publishers were unbelievably supportive because it's a blow, it's a blow to me but it's certainly a blow to them but is there an argument as well that in doing that you take away some of the power of the people

who don't support President Trump who probably are politically aligned with you would like to go to an event and meet like-minded people and champion what you're doing. That is a really good point and that's something I hadn't really taken into account when I cancelled the tour

but I have been asked that since and had to reflect on it. I simply couldn't. I consider this a moral issue, not a political one necessarily. Had the Democrats done the same thing, I would have done the same thing. I would have felt incredibly uncomfortable

going to the Kennedy Center to launch this book and haranguing them in their own house I don't think I could have I would have felt comfortable doing that and I think going there would have been

close to acquiescence and I'm I just can't you've been so phenomenally successful in the last 20 years of your life do you ever stop and think who's the other Louise Penny the one who didn't finally get published.

And I know that it was, you know, it was definitely a kind of battle to get that first manuscript accepted, wasn't it? It wasn't an absolute shoe-in. That's such an interesting question. I wonder who I would have been. Huh. Yeah, I don't know. I probably maybe fewer grey hairs.

A lot more compost under my fingernails because I had to give up gardening because I don't have the time anymore. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what would have become of me. I hope I would have been, I think, and this might be a conceit, I think, and this came from a number of things, not just being around Michael, but I think at rest I am a happy person,

and I think I still would have been happy and content with whatever the universe gave me and grateful for it. But this has been beyond anything I could have. ever, ever dreamed, ever dreamed. I'm just so fortunate when I say that and lucky. And some people get upset when I say that and say, well, luck has nothing to do with it. It's all skill and hard work. And there absolutely has to be that.

But I know a lot of writers who are probably better than I am, who haven't enjoyed the sort of success that I have. And so I am very aware every day of how lucky I am and how fortunate I am. How do you feel about the AI scrape? because you and I both know that if I was to type into a well-known chat bot, write me the opening paragraph of a Louise Penny book. It would. And it may be unrecognizable or indistinguishable from what I would write.

I'm very afraid. I don't want to come across as a Luddite. I don't want to be a Luddite. But the fact that there are no guardrails is really, terrifying for any creative, for me, for you, for actors, for musicians. And people say, well, the soul of the book can't, surely AI can't create that. And I think probably not, but I think people's expectations can lower over time and people will just say, well, that's, it's still a match, it's still set in three pines, it's okay. Yeah, I completely agree and I think it's such a

dangerous thing that we're witnessing in plain sight. In plain sight, I am glad I'm 67 where I am with book 20 because if it all goes away tomorrow, I'll be very sad. I'll still keep writing just for my own joy. But I wouldn't want to be trying to put out my first book at this time. Louise Penny and the Black Wolf is the latest addition to the Armand Gamash. I'm so sorry, I mean that pronunciation is just horrendous by completely. comparison to what the original is. It's available now in hardback and it is well worth your time.

I think when you read really splendid crime fiction, Jane, you just understand how multi-layered it is. Because actually, I think the joy of Louise Penny and what keeps people coming back is they're, you know, they're always kind of political thrillers as well as being crime fiction. But they've got all of that beautiful nature. They take you to a different community. they take you to a different place. And Armand is a wonderful character to just spend a bit of time with. Now, tomorrow, am I right in saying that tomorrow you're talking to Katie Prescott?

We certainly are about... Yes, because... Yes. I just find this just such a compelling tale. So in case anybody doesn't know... Well, to be fair, they have to be very much in the loop to know what Katie Prescott has written about.

But just explain, because I think this is so interesting. So Katie Prescott's book is called The Curious Case of Mike Lynch and in it she has detailed the extraordinary career of Mike Lynch who did lots of things but then set up a company called Autonomy which was wildly successful. It built algorithms, AI, all of that kind of stuff. It was at the frontier of tech. But he then sold it to Hewlett-Packard

and thereby started one of the most expensive legal cases in modern commercial history and he was found guilty on quite a few different charges at tribunals in America but then was found not guilty of the main kind of charge of fraud and he then died in a boating accident

on the same day that the accountant from autonomy died in a road accident yes that's probably that's probably intrigued We should say this is absolutely tragic because he wasn't the only victim of that accident on his boat. So he's

very young and I understand incredibly gifted daughter was killed too. So this is a really tragic tale but there are so many questions about this, aren't there? So I think that's going to be fascinating and then on Thursday I'm very much hoping that my interview with Petulia, Petula Clark

will be part of the podcast. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. And you better explain why we've taken to calling her Petulia. That's because Eve thought that was her name. And Petula Clark is just what it. She's been famous my entire life. And she, interestingly, like Lady Glenn Conner, is 93.

And I talked to her last week and she was actually such good company. And she's had such, such a life. You wouldn't believe it. So she is on on Thursday. So I think we end with lots to look forward to being. Very much. Lots to look forward to too. What can I just say?

No. Goodbye. This is the end. Go away. Up their line. I just want to thank Rosie and Eve for bearing with. You should have heard the conversation that we were having at around 10.30. Try it sort out the tech. Unbelievable. But they were very patient. And it was Rosie in the end who came up with the answer. So congratulations and thanks to her. Yeah. They looked exhausted by the time I got into one. Listen, I feel their pain. I really, really do. But somehow, we've managed to do it. it. Okay. So it's been brilliant. Well, look, good luck overnight in the safe house. Let's not give away any more of your whereabouts. And we'll talk to you at the same time tomorrow. Goodbye. Goodbye. staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you.