Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Keep everyone close, buy a Swiss Army Knife (with Tim Marshall)

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

Jane and Fi wonder how best to disrupt each others' funerals musically and marvel at Melvyn Bragg's hair. They also sort through our, quite frankly, bulging post bag. Plus, they're joined by geopolitics expert Tim Marshall, who discusses the updated version of his book ‘Prisoners of Geography’ Send your suggestions for the next book club pick!If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Anyway, you won't be at my funeral, so that's my other specific wish. Don't let her in! No, don't let her in! I was going to do my karaoke version of You'll Never Walk Alone. No, no! Yeah, don't feel too sorry. Yep, I think they're fine. Now look, welcome to Off Air with Jane and Fee and postcards now.

So this is turning into the equivalent, Jane, of Noel's Swap Shop. It does feel a bit like that. It's great though. It does, doesn't it? I absolutely love it. So our postcard wall is just full of the most fabulous shots of life from the view of our listeners. And I really hope that people aren't giving away their favourite postcard in the world ever. Because I suspect that this one, would you like to describe it, Colleague?

It's a shot of Concord. It's Concord going up. And do you know why they put an E on the end of Concord? No, why? Because it was an Anglo-French. Really and that was our concession. And we went all right then, if you must, because it shouldn't really have an E on the end. Concord, I'd never thought about that. Yeah? And they didn't want to le Concord it or... No. No, of course. They stuck an in A on the end. Well, this comes in from Caroline. Iconic card.

I found it in my mother-in-law's desk when she died. Never liked to waste anything. Best friend from Mid Wales, currently on a coach on a something adventure. This is the other joyous thing. Can I just say, ladies and gentlemen, your writing is terrible. Writing is terrible. And some of it's very small. Remember, we're very old. And there's obviously really fantastically funny things there,

but I just can't read any of that actually. Keep it brief and print it large. So, a memory to my in-laws, John and Sonia, is all I'm going to get to, Carolyn, but it's an absolutely glorious picture. I mean, some parts of it are underlined as well. It's really important, Jane. I felt really guilty about that.

Large and brief, please. are underlined as well, it's really important Jane. I felt really guilty about that. Large and brief please. I just want to mention this one because it's lovely, it's a shot of Sri Lanka. I'm responding to your call out for a postcard. It's a leftover from my recent trip to Sri Lanka with my parents and brother and sister. My siblings and I are all in our 50s and it was the first trip with just our nuclear family since 1981. We all live in Australia but not in the same state so we just don't get many opportunities to hang out together. It was amazing. People were great, food was brilliant, countryside, culture, but the best part was being a kid again. I think that's lovely. I'm glad you had such a good time. That's from Susan, who I think is in Clare Valley, or it could be from Susan and Claire who live in a valley. Either way, I'm really glad you and your nuclear family. It's very rare in your 50s to have

a family expedition with just your nuclear family in your 50s. So what a fantastic place to go as well. Sri Lanka I know is absolutely great. Now this comes in, it is a picture of Carnegie Hall but not that one. It's unsigned though. You ain't made it if you ain't played Carnegie Hall NYC but you'll be very welcome in the city where it all began, Andrew Carnegie's birthplace Dunfermline. And it's a beautiful picture of Carnegie Hall in Dunfermline. So whoever sent that, thank you very much indeed for that. Do you know, I know nothing about that man, but in Crosby where I grew up, we had a Carnegie library. So his...

He's obviously big. No, he gave so much money away. Big in the arts. Yeah, a real philanthropist. But how did he make his money? I don't know. Rosie's in charge today and she's coming towards me I think she wants to adjust something. What do you want to do? There's always that worry isn't there these days that if you scratch the surface of people who made a lot of money it might not be good, it might not be great. Let's find out as soon as we can. Thank you for all of the postcards

relating to North Berwick. We will keep our North Berwick special formal announcement to a little bit later during the week. Bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, formal announcement. Vicki Whiteley has sent a very nice picture of Schöner Gruber. Is that right? Well, Schöer Gruber from Trier, Germany's oldest city. I don't know what Schgoner Gruber is. Anyway, it's home to some spectacular Roman buildings, delicious local wines, and at this time of year some cracking magnolias. Really enjoyed your Barbican Tuesday show with my fab friend Angela, who trekked up from Devon.

We were thrilled when you read out our How Far Would You Travel question. Big hugs and keep up the accents. Vicki Whiteley. And then she's also mentioned Eve as well there. So thank you very much indeed for that. Right, lovely. And oh, you've done that one. That's Carnegie Hall. I'm just going to dip in because we do have a lot now. But we are very grateful. Honestly, it's brilliant. Dear Jane Fee and Eve, not only am I sending you a postcard, I'm writing going to dip in because we do have a lot now. But we are very grateful, honestly it's brilliant. Dear Jane Fee and Eve, not only am I sending you a postcard, I'm writing this with a fountain pen.

That's old school. Apologies for the shameless plug, but on the front is my husband's Repertory Film Festival in Bristol. It's on between May 28th and 1st June. He has even managed to get a high-powered female Hollywood producer Gail Anne Hurd to attend. I think he's earned his feminism badge says Helen. Sounds like he has and I think our listeners are the sort of people who would enjoy a reprisal film festival in Bristol between the 28th of

May and the 1st of June at the Bristol Megascreen. Forbidden Worlds of the Deep is the fantastic title of that festival. Enjoy. Yeah, blimey. So you're going to get all kinds of jaws and whatever's there. Looks like it. Have you seen the Minecraft film? No, not going to Jane. Will you? No, I won't remind you, but my nephew did go the youngest one. How old is he? He's nearly 15, so he went with his moats and they thought it was alright. Apparently Jennifer Coolidge isn't it? Well good on her. Yeah, I did not know that. I mean she has, now she's

been in White Lotus, which I haven't seen, but people rave about her. She was extraordinary. Her character Tanya was this billionaire widow, widow, yes, who tipped up in the White Lotus Resort. Every scene she was in, you just, you couldn't see anything but her. She was so monumentally glorious in this very kind of I'm just rich and I'm a little bit past it act because actually no she was so smart humanly emotionally smart as a character she got involved with a dreadful creep of a man who we met in season three either called Greg or Gary he had adopted a new identity in Thailand where he was living and enjoying the life right any further thoughts on that? It's Jalen Fee.

Send them somewhere else. Time's already... Yeah, actually alright, send them somewhere else. But can we... Well, we're talking matriarchal figures. Can we have a shout out for the fabulous Julie Graham in This City is Ours, who plays the matriarch of the Phelan crime family, and enjoying that wonderful microclimate they have in Nottyash. The weather there is just gorgeous. She sits in her garden all the time. It's never rained, has it? Never. It's never rained in Nottingham. Not in living memory. I think she's... I find her incredibly watchable as well.

Anyway, I finished that last night, so it's quite clear there's going to be a series two. Well, there better be. And I sincerely hope they've signed her up for that. Did anybody actually... No, no, no, I'm going to watch it myself. Yeah, do watch it. So I'll save that question for spoiler alert once we have got there. Right. Annabel emails to say, Dear Jane and Fia, I've reached the age where direct mail is mainly about stair lifts and comfortable shoes. But even I was taken aback by a new one from Pure Cremation.

Photo attached to the envelope encouraging me to treat yourself this spring on us. Treat yourself this spring but no further spring. Enjoy your last spring. Look I can see it's just a very peculiar thing to do as a direct marketing tool. It certainly is. I'd love to know what the opening line was once you opened it. Yeah, let us know. Let us know Annabel. Dear Annabel, are you still alive? Soon you won't be. Me too. It's funny isn't it, because I went to a solicitor at the end of last week to organise a will, because I've got a will, but it's a bit out of date.

I know, you hadn't left me anything in the previous will and you needed to change it. Why do you think I needed to change it? And the solicitor, who is quite a young man, just said, well, you know, what about funeral arrangements? In that moment, there is a part of you that thinks a funeral for who? What are you talking about? And then you actually think, oh, that man is insinuating that I might not be immortal. What can he mean? And even though I had put in the previous will some instructions about a funeral, there's something about confronting it that even when you're 60 still slightly takes you by surprise. But isn't that the huge problem that a lot of people think even when they're 85 or 90,

that it's something that will happen to their friends? 100%. I think there's, I mean in a way that's how we keep trucking as humans because if we were just dashing around like headless chickens, so continuously aware of our own mortality, we'd be as miserable as sin, wouldn't we? We all know a few people like that. You just can't be. Have you gone down the detailed route? What is the song? I know. Are you doing it? Actually, no, you're going to have to have something from Liverpool. I'm absolutely having You'll Never Walk Alone, yeah. 100%. Or will I? Or will I just ask you to come along and play the oboe?

Well, I could do a very haunting oboe version. Actually you could. Just record it now and then I'll stick it somewhere and then we've got it. I tell you what, it would sound probably very good on the oboe. It would solve everybody's earwax problems. Let's hear it for Saffron Walden. Home of what was it the headline said? Well I think it was better opportunities for earwax removal in Saffron Walden than any other Essex town. Well better served than many other places was I think how they phrased it. Oh I wanted to exaggerate it a bit. But it's funny, the Solicitor said to me, you know he said at least you can laugh about your funeral.

He said you'd be surprised by the number of people who genuinely, still, even though they're at the point of making a will, cannot confront. Bless you. Bless you, yes. Thank you. I hope you have a lot longer than I have. Is that a sign? I don't know. Gosh.

They just can't quite get there because they think, they really care passionately about what happens at their funeral, almost as though they're going to be there, which they're not. Well, in a sense they are, love. Yeah, but no. No, but... I take your point, yeah. I think it would upset you if there was an afterlife,

to be sitting there, tapping your watch, going, come on, come on everybody, and actually, you know, your funeral is just only two or three people, no reference to anything that you'd achieved in your life, no sense of who you are, I think you genuinely would be upset. It's interesting, isn't it? I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on just the amount of detail you're prepared to go into in your will about a funeral, bearing in mind that actually, apparently, that's also

and people can correct me here, it's one of the parts of the will that your nearest and dearest don't actually have to pay attention to. Yep, it is just wishes. It's just wishes, yeah. But it's extraordinarily helpful to know, that's the point as well, isn't it? Yes, I'm sure. Because then, you know, there aren't any rows between people who believe that they know more than the other person who

loved the dead person about what their wishes would be and stuff. So I've made mine quite clear, quite simple and quite clear. And weirdly for somebody who doesn't go to church anymore myself, I would love to have my funeral in a church just because there is something about the quality of air in an English church on a cold day and it always just will be a cold day apart from the two very hot days that we get in summer and be sods law on a funeral or one of those but there's something about the stillness of the air and the quality of the light and the sound of a choir in a church that I would just really like to go out on Jane is that me being naughty because I don't kind of pay my dues all the other times?

I think it helps grief. I've found it incredibly helpful to be in a church for other people's funerals. Yes, I agree there. Do you know what I mean? There's something about the profound nature, all the people who've walked there before, all of that kind of stuff that just really works. That's interesting, yes, you're right. I mean, it's about giving other people the opportunity to grieve, should they wish to.

And just a really nice stained window or something to look at, instead of, you know, trying to work out whether or not the curtain's broken at the crematorium or whatever. No, but there are always little things like that that stay with you forever. Anyway, you won't be at my funeral so that's my other specific wish. Don't let her in! No don't let her in! I was going to do my karaoke version of You'll Never Walk Alone. No no I want the Lemonheads, the outdoor type. Do you? Lemonheads? Such a fantastic song. This is all about people who pretend they really like festivals and they don't.

Oh yes, okay. Can I just do a very quick parish notice before I get on? This is an interview that I think you did with David Hepworth years and years ago and Heather has been very doggedly emailing to get a detail of the title of the book because she just says, can you remind me, read that book about aging rock stars? And I looked it up and I think it's David Hepworth's Hope I Get Old Before I Die. It was good as well that book, wasn't it? It was very good, yes. So there you go Heather. I'm sorry it's taken us so long to get round to answering that,

but it was last year. Okay, all right Rosie. Yes, I don't think it was I thought you meant back in the dirt GLR I was thinking really she's not been emailing for 25 years I was gonna say that would be extraordinary right can I do two emails because I promised Lottie in West Sussex that I'd do this one about feminism this goes back to a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about, I think probably it was from the fallout of adolescents, and we were talking about the way that feminism might have got a little

bit of a reputation amongst the younger generation of men, just as a term that they have found difficult to ingest. So this comes in from Lottie. Relatively new listener, first-time correspondent, I felt called to write in after listening to your discussion about the use of the term feminism versus equalism. Having studied feminism to a relatively high level, a master's degree in feminist literature, don't mind me, I was struck by Fee's choice to adopt a new term because of the distorted meaning assigned to the word feminism by men. Throughout centuries, history, some men have continually sullied, tarnished and vilified the world feminism in an attempt to quell its progress. And I can't help but feel that by adapting our language use to the extent

that an incredibly intelligent, deeply feminist hero, I'm looking at you here, V, adopts a different term. We are allowing the patriarchal perspective to successfully change the meaning of the word in the public domain, affording them yet another victory. Surely we should be standing firm in defending the honour of the word feminism, rather than permitting the patriarchy to take yet another thing away from us. Absolutely highest regards from a lover of both high and low brow literature. That's from Lottie in West Sussex.

And I'm sorry that we probably haven't got time to do all of the other comments in the email when they're about book club and stuff like that. So to another one that headed into the email inbox, and then I'll be asking my colleague Jane Garvey, formerly the monarch of the power of the hour of the power of the woman. I think I was only ever the sort of Princess Royal, so let's just be honest about that. To discuss this one with me. Now I think this is, yeah, this is anonymous. Dear both, I've just about got my land legs back after a truly

dreadful ferry journey where you've kept me company for several hours whilst I've stared straight ahead at the horizon. Next time I shall say... Are you groaning? I am a bit because I do think, I mean we can ask the hive mind, but there's something about a rocky ferry. It's not good. It's really not good. But our correspondent says next time I shall simply use the ultimate seasickness cure, pay for the easy flight instead. Well, I don't know, you get turbulence there, don't you? But it did mean that I'm very across your recent work and particularly discussions about

adolescence, which as a mostly year 12, 13 teacher I was gripped by, so that's sixth form, isn't it? I wanted to say that I agree with Fee that one of its powers was the point about Jamie's dad not being able to even look at him when he failed and so Jamie just didn't see the value of empathy. We really do need to find a better way to show that being vulnerable is going to get you more places than being tough. I see on a daily basis how much teens are pretending to have the traits of the adults they have in their lives. It's very clear in the classroom who it is that has rage in their lives at home. I bet it is. I bet it is. There has never been a more urgent time to address how we're treating young men,

which brings me to my second point, which is about feminism as a term. By all all means discuss its use in the seminar rooms of universities or on the stages of festivals or on Radio 4 in the mornings, you made that point too, but do know that it really is true that young boys said it's a difficult term, one that excludes them from something. Equalism would be a happier term for these young people. The massive problem now is that the boxes are very heavily labeled, far too many teenage boys think feminism is for girls and so head to the manosphere as boys. I don't waste my time on trying to over explain the terms, it makes my head boil when I hear people get stuck on that. I think we are a long way past that place of luxury. What's important is trying to find the

bit in the middle we all want to share and finally yes yes yes please encourage your listeners to actually go and look at what's out is trying to find the bit in the middle we all want to share. And finally, yes, yes, yes, please encourage your listeners to actually go and look at what's out there. The incel movement with all of its red pills and blue pills and the 80-20 theory is very real. That's part of it. It's not drama and parents cannot expect teachers to do all of the work on this one. Right. So two completely different sides of the feminism coin. Over to you. Jane. Jane Garvey. Thank you.

So that's what. Thanks for giving me this one. That's for a... Melvin bragged to us in our time. Is it? Jane Garvey. Okay. B.A. Yes, although he wouldn't say that, would he?

Has he... is he qualified? Has anybody asked? Oh, I should think he's got many many masters. Yes he would have, more than that I would imagine. Do you know, I can't, I mean, our first correspondent is someone who is, let's be honest, very much a part of that intellectual world of feminism and feminist theory and feminist debate. First wave of feminism, second wave of feminism, all of that stuff, which I'm sorry, just those kinds of conversations are not had in the real world, they never have been had. And I also, I really feel that social history

is so easily forgotten and frankly, rarely or poorly taught across Britain. So if you actually look back, not just to the suffragettes who wanted the right to vote, and you know when some women got the vote in 1918, it's so easily forgotten that so did some men, not all men could vote in 1918. So you know these battles were very real and incredibly important and then in 1928 all women could vote after that and so all men had been able to vote since 1918. I think that's the truth of it but people can take me up on that. But then you get to stuff like women couldn't get a mortgage until the 1970s, that's a woman on her own. Rape in marriage was entirely legal until the early 1990s.

This stuff happened in our lifetime, the mortgages and the rape in marriage, in my lifetime definitely. So women's football made illegal in 1921 pretty much. I mean these things are just remarkable and need to be a part of the conversation and maybe it's something that all children should be taught in schools. This is how women's lives used to be and in this country in the UK and this is how they can be now given equal opportunities. And by the way, boys from working class backgrounds, boys who grew up in families with no money and no connections, they had it bloody tough as well and things are marginally fairer now.

Though Britain is still a very unequal society isn't it? So these battles for equality are still relevant to everybody and still should be fought by everybody. Does any of that make any sense? No, I think that's absolutely brilliant and you know I applaud you from the back. I think Lottie what I would say, a, I'm genuinely sad if you felt when you were listening to when Jane and I were talking about this that I'd somehow let you down in choosing a different term that could be used, but it was specifically about talking

to young men at the moment. I don't want you to feel that I've, you know, kind of dissed the sisterhood at all in wanting to talk about equalism, but I also really, really recognise that we're at such an important point in the world where young boys have had access to stuff that actually I think as women we have not recognised the importance of it because we don't go in search of that kind of stuff. We haven't had that available to us. And by that, I mean the absolute trashing of the opposite sex and the undermining of it and the exploitation of it and the pornographisation of it and all of that. You know, I sometimes think that, you know, the one thing that I will go to my deathbed regretting is actually not having moved at the same speed as the world about ten years ago.

I feel like I will always be slightly catching up. And I think the feminist movement has some catching up to do actually in recognizing what's happened to some young men, not all young men, at all. And it's not only on women to solve it, of course it isn't. But I do think as well, if we have been brave enough to take on board what the world has done to women, we do have to be brave enough to take on board what the world is currently doing to a generation of young men. There isn't an equivalence.

I can clearly see that. I'm not arguing that there should be, because I think there's denigration involved in previous generations, if you argue for equivalence. But I really, you know, I don't think it's... the manosphere is not something that's just going to go away. It's not going to go away. And we do... and our teachers, right, we've got to go and look at it. It's not going to go away because it's making money for people. Yes, to understand it. And so if within that manosphere there are lots of people going, all those feminists, we've just got to find a better way to say we are beneficial to the world. We can be equal with you. It is important to be equal. This is what's great about being

equal. you know, we can't just stand with a placard in front of everybody. No, but I mean, there has got to be a realisation that an acceptance that making the sexes equal might feel to some men that they're going to lose out. Oh, totally, and that's the bit you've got to tackle. You have to tackle that, and how you do that, I don't know. But I think we're saying exactly the same thing. I think in absolutely recognising that, if one of the hurdles is simply the way that something is being talked about, then let's change the way that we talk about it or add

something to the way that we talk about it. I'm going to call today's seminar to a close. No, very much so. But thank you, because I've enjoyed thinking about that. Thank you to both of our correspondents. I really wish it was easier to get to the... Oh God, to get to the heart. Well, let's just invite other people to chip in, whether you're a teacher, whether you're a parent.

Heaven forbid that any young man should be listening to this, but you never know. Because I think if you're a young man in a school setting, you know, sometimes, let's just be honest, girls do better within that school environment and the boys feel, oh, what's the point, because, you know, she's gonna, I know she's gonna get the top prize, she's gonna get to the cheese, clearly, but also you could argue some, though not all girls, work harder, they have that kind of mindset, but then not that long ago, women couldn't go to university, so you know, let's just acknowledge that everyone, like I said at the beginning, everyone has got battles to fight. And it's I said we were closing the seminar and I kept going.

So I don't know why you and I are just not university lecturers really. Oh, my goodness. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Just imagine the tangents would'd go off on in the lectures. Anonymous says, in response to Jane's plea that she'd like to hear from people going to other people's houses, I couldn't miss this chance. I have been an NHS occupational therapist for over 25 years and I've had quite a few experiences I can imagine. I think it's important to say that when you do home visits for a living, you see all aspects

of humanity. Highlights include having an elderly lady find her missing glass eye under her bed, sitting down on a heap of blankets on a sofa to discover that actually somebody was asleep underneath them, being bitten by a Jack Russell, being locked in a house by an elderly woman who'd lost the key, arriving to find an elderly gentleman had set the table with tablecloth china and had bought boxes of cakes and scones enough for at least six people. That is heartbreaking. Joking apart, I'm usually visiting somebody due to illness or infirmity and they're not always old. Many are younger

people whose lives have altered direction because of illness. What often strikes me is the evidence around the home of their previous lives, photographs of happier times and a life lived. It is a constant reminder to live each day as it comes with gratitude for what we have. I know it sounds trite, but my job is a constant reminder of how lucky I am and how much care, kindness and support we need to give to those looking after loved ones at home. None of that is trite at all and thank you very much for sending it. You're absolutely right and doing a brilliant and really important job so thank you very much for the email.

Have you ever thought about doing a job that takes you inside people's houses because you're quite curious? I'm curious. I like to think that just by doing a podcast I'm inside people's houses. By the way, we can see you when you're listening to this, so don't get up to anything. Or if you are getting up to something magnificent, send us a picture. Oh no, don't! God! Always dust your trinkets. Mind you, I was... What?

Always dust your trinkets. I was putting a vase back on one of my shelves this morning and I did notice how incredibly dusty all the top shelves are. I'm going to get at half... get at it with my feather duster this weekend, V. What's happened? We've just turned into some kind of a carry on movie over the last 10 minutes. Melvin Bragg has an MA from Oxford. Oh yeah, well yeah, but you get one of those if you've just done a degree.

It's an Oxford and Cambridge MA. It's not real. But he has been a mini, he's got lots of honorary doctorates. Okay, yeah, but so have we. Yeah, we've got loads. Put that any more to board Melvin, which you can't get over your bouffant hair. He had some magnificent hair. Ruthie Darling has been back in touch.

Oh hello Ruthie, hope you're alright. As you both know by trade I'm a flagrant creative aka perpetually broke so I've had my fair share of survival jobs over the years, many of which involve working in other people's homes. Thanks to being based in New York and rocking a cut glass black country accent, I somehow fell into working for some seriously high net worth individuals who seem to be living out their best upstairs downstairs fantasies. I mostly nanny but one particularly unhinged gig, affectionately dubbed doing laundry for

lunatics, was a personal assistant job with a twist. My main task, buy a brand new outfit, jeans and a t-shirt every single day for the client and her husband. After purchasing, I'd rush to an eco laundrette, wash the items and deliver them each morning. Every night she'd throw the outfits away after one wear. Why, you ask? Well, because the heiress in question was convinced she could smell chemicals. I wish I could elaborate but honestly I've got no idea what she meant. Whilst working for her I wasn't allowed to wear perfume, moisturiser or god forbid deodorant. August in New York is no place to be deodorant free but it turns out I'll do just about anything to make rent.

Her apartment was crammed full of herbal remedy bottles as she waged war against this disease of being able to smell everything. She moved house five times in the year I worked for her, each time convinced she could smell the pipework. And once she ordered hundreds of products from Amazon, five of everything, and my job was to deliver them to her for a smell test, then discard anything that didn't pass. A truly magnificent use of my Bachelor of Arts degree." Well Ruthie, she sounds like somebody with problems, but also with that condition, the hypo, what's it, osmere, which is that incredible sensitivity to smell, which weirdly in other people has been put to amazing use particularly the woman

who realized she could smell her husband's Alzheimer's who then went on to become involved in the research program sorry Parkinson's you're right and in the research program that has led to being able to use a test of sebum on the skin to diagnose Parkinson's much earlier. So you know there are good ways to be using that. I mean I kind of actually slightly feel for somebody who's being driven so bonkers by smell. I mean that's a problem person. It's become a problem for a person. It definitely is a problem. But Ruthie, I've said it before, you must write a book. Yes you must!

And she's just done so much. So much has happened Ruthie, come on! Yeah, or if you can't be bothered to write a book, then just say it all. Because you do have a very lovely accent. We've met Ruthie in person. You've got a lovely voice and you could just record them as monologues. Yes. Julie says I've recently retired from working in a Royal Mail inquiry office. I was taken aback when a young girl said she'd never bought a stamp before and was completely stumped when I asked her if she wanted first or second. But nothing beats the day when a man, possibly aged about 20, just plonked a pair of football boots down on the counter and said these are going to France. I said, right, well you need to pack and address them. And he asked, don't you do that?

I managed to find a box that had contained leaflets, packed them and told him to address it. He looked completely perplexed and said, really? And I told him, well, we need to give the postman a clue. How are they going to get that? Right. Okay. I mean, it is, that's the depth of ignorance I didn't know existed, but it's very sweet that a young person turns up at the post office with just an item. Yeah, because you do it. The powers that be will somehow get them to their destination. Julie says, could I please take the opportunity to ask people to take just a few minutes to put their house number and postcode on the back of cards and particularly parcels.

The last Christmas I worked there, we had a parcel address to two girls, no surname or house number. The postman didn't recognise the names and we couldn't return it. There we go. Yeah, no waste. I was wondering about that but it is a help, yes. You definitely should put your own name and address on the back of particularly a parcel. Yep. Do you know what, just thinking of people who do things for you as a customer, I really,

really miss the petrol man. Do you remember when you drove into a petrol station? And I'm sorry, it always was a man. Do you remember when you drove into a petrol station? Oh yeah. And I'm sorry, it always was a man, filled up your car with petrol and had a nice little chat with you and sometimes took your money as well. A bit of a flirt? No, not necessarily, but it just seems like such an extraordinary thing from a really distant past, but it's not that distant, is it? No, no, it's not that distant.

And it was very helpful. I always get very nervous filling the car up. I don't know why. I do sort of know what you mean. It's one of those, actually it's peculiarly simple, but it was something I worried about when I became a car owner. I always think that I've put diesel in. Well, I did once.

Oh, okay. I've said it before, I'm sure, but it was quite literally, I've never made my dad happier than when I had to ring him. I was in Liverpool and I had to ring him to say that I put Petrol in my diesel car. He I've never look on his face when he came to collect me absolutely joyful Ha she's cocked up in a right royal fashion. I've been brought in to assist Well, the petrol guys were nicer

Yeah, well and they would never have made that mistake and And then sometimes they'd say, do you want a little top up of your windscreen wipers and whatever. And I also get very nervous when I go inside to pay for petrol. I always think someone's going to nick the car. Doesn't matter how many times I've gone, wait, no! I always think somebody might steal it. No one is going to nick your car. The Skoda Monte Carlo!

They're not. Oh, they're not. Right, um... I'm... So I'm going to come to your funeral, I'm going to stand outside, I'm going to play the oboe, all the way through... Drowning out the sentiment. Drowning out everybody. Melvin Bragg's eulogy, it's all going to be accompanied by me going... going to be accompanied by me going... Ben has emailed, it's going to be the last one today, I'll guess, yes there is one, thank goodness you're thinking, it's mega brained Tim Marshall talking geopolitics, he's got

an updated version of his book, Prisoners of Geography, I've got it, he's written lots of books with geography in the title but this is the updated Prisoners of Geography. I've been meaning to write for a while, says Ben. I love your podcast after being introduced to it by my wife and I've enjoyed your recent musings on Birkhamsted. Add to that I work for the Grounds Management Association, Fee. I also have a professional interest in turf care. I never thought I'd be reading out an email from a bloke with a professional interest in tough care. The real reason I'm...

Oh, be honest love. You did. I did. Here's a story my dad used to tell me, which I think is peak Birkenstead. Back in the 60s, he was a junior member at Birkenstead Golf Club and occasionally caddied for VIPs. For I imagine a pat on the back or at best a shilling. One day he was called in for a round and found himself caddying for a really nice American bloke. Instead of the usual shrapnel, this particular golfer bought him a brand new Claude Butler racing bike. Who was this golfer? It was Bob Hope. What a magical story. How lovely. If you're at a loose end in November, Ben would like to invite us to Soltex,

which is the leading and longest running grounds care management show. It is held at the NEC. I'm there. I'm so, so there. Thanks very much, Ben. Correct me if I'm wrong, and somebody will be able to, but there was a time, wasn't there, when the Pro-Am Golf tournaments were on TV? Oh, yeah, with Terry Wergen. Yeah. wasn't there when the Pro-Am Golf Tournaments were on TV? Oh yeah with Terry Wogan. Yeah so you could watch Bruce Forsyth and Jimmy Tarbuck and probably Bob Hope all knock up a four ball with each other. With Nick Fuldo and they would have a pro with them. They would. So why has that gone away? Because it was shit. What used to pass for entertainment is just terrible.

My dad absolutely loved golf but me being me found that boring. Just watching somebody else faff around who thought they could play as well as a professional golfer. I mean that's what golf clubs are actually bloody full of. But now we've got to the stage where people will watch films of other people playing video games. I know. Or just unwrapping boxes. I will basically, the world is going to the dogs. But don't worry.

We're here for you. We are, for what it's worth, here for you. Let's bring in... Well, shall we just do some addresses? Or do you want to do that right at the end? Go on, you don't know. Jane and Fee, Times Radio, News UK, One, London Bridge, London, SE1, 9, GF. That's G for Golf, F for Foxtrot. Thank you.

So as we speak in the April of 2025, I think it's fair to say that things here on planet Earth are a little rocky. So let's bring in a man who knows everything about the way the world rolls, Tim Marshall. Former diplomatic editor at Sky News, he's worked for IRN, he's worked for IRN, he's worked for the BBC and he's reported from all over the world and his books include The Power of

Geography, The Future of Geography and he has an updated version out in paperback now of his very successful Prisoners of Geography. Tim Marshall, good afternoon to you. Hello. Right, first of all, is this about as bad as it could ever get or are we just going through a little patch of turbulence which will soon settle down and we'll be able to have a nice gin and tonic in about a day or so? What do you think? Well, if you're talking about a little spatter amongst the White House seniors, then it's about as good as it can get. You know, get the popcorn out, sit back and enjoy. Actually, Musk has just put something else on Twitter, which is a clip of Milton Friedman, the economist, talking about supply chains. So, watch this space. It's quite fun. If you mean, oh, impending world recession, heightened nuclear war threats, many wars breaking out, tariffs, trade wars. I think it'll settle down this year, yes. But honestly, do trade wars sometimes result in the real thing?

They do. I mean, the... was it Smoot Hawley, which I'm sure you're aware of, the act of, I think it was Roosevelt, during the Great Depression, and it was disastrous, and that was tariffs. But not always. When Trump introduced admittedly lower tariffs in his first presidential, everybody said there'd be massive inflation in the world recession, and there wasn't. Inflation peaked at 1.9% under him and went to 8% under Biden. So I really think we do need to take a medium term view. I mean, the markets just go crazy. But there was a headline last week, which amused me, which said that the stock exchange, one FTSE 100, has dropped by its biggest amount since, and you're

sort of waiting for some historic last August. I do think we need to, but sorry, in the wider aspect, what is going on with the Trump tariff war is the same that's going on with slapping the Europeans around over defence and bullying the Latin Americans into kicking China out of Latin America. What is behind all this is not this sort of wildly lashing out in an incoherent manner. It stems from the foreign policy high priests of make America great again types, having thought this through before they came back to power and come to the conclusion that the post Cold War era is over. You know, we had the post, we had the Cold War, the post Cold War era, that's finished.

We're now into this new era in which they're going to smash a lot of things and try to recreate or create a new era with them running it. You know, it is not unthought out. And we should say, and I was interested in what you said about this in the book, that some of the things that Trump has said are very similar to stuff that President Obama said, talking about basically pivoting to Asia. Why is it that we often criticise Donald Trump for this stuff, but we wouldn't do the same about Barack Obama? Because he's orange, and because he is a bully, and because he's objectionable, and because

I can find no redeeming features in him and nor can huge amounts of people and that's why. But what people then do is I think let that dripping contempt they have for him cloud the understanding of what he's doing and makes it impossible to think he's ever doing anything right. Now I'm not making a case whether he's doing and makes it impossible to think he's ever doing anything right. Now I'm not making a case whether he's doing things right or wrong. I'll leave that to others. But I'll give you some examples. 1950s, Truman tried to buy Greenland. Nobody called him crazy. It was a very, very smart idea and Trump's idea of trying to control Greenland makes perfect sense.

You don't have to like it, but it certainly makes sense. Everyone said, oh, he's going to invade Panama. Of course he's not going to invade Panama. He doesn't need to. He needs to threaten them. And they've already sold the two ports that the Chinese company controlled, saw which way the wind was blowing, and they've already sold out to BlackRock.

I can give you a couple more. The policies of the Latin Americans, they saw that, and they've already started looking twice at doing big trade deals with China. And the Europeans are already starting to have to not have their hands held and their noses wiped by the Americans after 70 years. So you know it from their perspective they're doing the right

thing. So like it or lump it sometimes Donald Trump is right and we just have to we just have to accept it and I think you're right I think a lot of liberals in the West find it extraordinarily difficult to digest that but we have to accept that possibility that sometimes the orange one is correct or at least his ideas have some basis in in truth and reality and the whole notion that what Trump's doing with the Russians is to get the Russians on side so he can focus on China there's a logic to that too isn't there? There is, and the Chinese have noticed it.

Now, I'm sceptical that they can do it, because at the moment, the way the world is, that the Russians and the Chinese have got together in a temporary marriage of convenience. I mean, the idea that they're friends is nonsense. They are natural enemies. But it suits them to have come together to try and undermine the American

led system and they've done it very successfully for more than 20 years. So what Trump might be trying to do is called the reverse Nixon. Nixon went to China with Kissinger in the early 70s and he managed to peel China away from the Soviet Union, from the Russians. And the Russians have watched this rather nervously. But they can see that, you know, there could be something in this. Now again, I don't think that there's going to be much success in this. But you know, it actually does make sense. But I think that would come down the line.

They'll have to get the Ukraine thing sorted out on the Ukraine issue I mean, this is another thing that fits into my idea of that They know what they're doing even if what they do might be unpleasant and it might not work They have come to the conclusion that if the Russians can't even reach Keef They're hardly likely to reach the Atlantic coast and dominate the entire continent, in which case, what do they care about Ukraine? Well, OK, but that's brutal if you're in Ukraine. Well, he is, isn't he?

Yeah, and as you pointed out, he is. He's not someone we have to like. And today's news that the Ukrainians say that two Chinese soldiers have been captured in Ukraine. I suppose there's a logic to that. We know that North Korean forces are involved, so why not? The key to this story is, are the Ukrainians going to look at the IDs that they've got of these two guys?

And it appears there may have been six and they captured two of them. Will the identities of the two men be traced back to the Chinese military or are they just mercenaries? Because there are many, many Americans fighting in Ukraine as mercenaries. There are many Brits who've gone there because they believe in defending the state of Ukraine against the aggression of the Russians. There's all sorts of nationalities there. The North Koreans are there as part of state policy by the North Koreans to try and get Russian technology for their nuclear weapons and other things. So if, and it's a very big if, if Beijing is actually sanctioned and these turn out

to be PLA members, that would be huge. If they're mercenaries, it's less of a story. Okay and something you say in the book is that you don't believe that China will emerge as a global superpower and replace the USA. The latter, yeah, the second half of what you said. No, I argue that they will not, as has been predicted for many, many years, overtake America by around about 2050. Okay, why not? Because they don't innovate as much, because they have incredible problems with their economy. I mean, you know, they are seriously struggling. The housing market collapsed has put them back a decade. They're 10 years behind

on super semiconductor chips. They have two aircraft carriers, the Americans have 11. Their military is nowhere near as good as the Americans yet, and they have a huge demographic problem. They have historic problems where the interior becomes poorer than the coastal areas, and that creates massive tensions. I mean, you name it, they've got it. And then there's something called the middle income trap, which Japan went through for more than a decade. When you try to climb up the value chain and try to compete not with making cheap goods, which you flood markets with, which break, but you actually try to move up the value chain. They're having serious problems in making decent stuff with some exceptions. So, I mean, this is all part of why there is this, forgive me for plugging, but you brought it up, the 10th anniversary.

It's 10 years since I wrote Prisons of Geography. So we have this 10th anniversary edition. I'd say it's about a third bigger than the original and about 50% of it is rewritten. Because what has happened over the last 10 years, it does fit into my idea that, you know, always look at geography when you're looking at international relations. But also I do think that the events of the past 10 years have accelerated and pushed us into what is this new era. I suspect it'll be dated from this year when Trump came in, but you know that's just useful for making sense of things. The trends have been moving this way for some time. I mean I really do urge people, I would say it's the perfect gift actually for somebody

perhaps doing history or geography in the sixth form because they'll learn such a lot from this. But also you mentioned there's chapters on the Arctic and Antarctica and you believe the next battleground will be space. So we've got so much to look forward to. I mean I just wanted to get a brief word with you, won't you? I mean, we take China's regime as a given, as though it's always going to be in the grip of the Chinese Communist Party, but actually, briefly, if you can, that's not a given, is it?

Nothing's a given, which is why we should not be surprised we're in a new era. I mean, the concert of Europe in 1815 after the Napoleonic Wars lasted X decades, the post-Cold War, the post-war order lasted 70 years and we're into something new. Communism lasted 70 or 80 years. So although I'll try and be brief, I don't think there's any signs that they're about to be overthrown because the deal in China is you make us rich and we'll let you get on with the politics we won't demonstrate against you as long as that deal holds and despite all the headwinds they're facing they are still becoming less poor than they were so but eventually yeah I mean every few every century or, China has a massive revolution where the interior

revolts against the rich people. And let's face it, it's the heads of the Communist Party that are the rich people. Tim Marshall, and I think we'll file that in. Nothing much to worry about, honestly. Just plough on and be good to your friends and neighbours and family. Keep everyone close. Buy a Swiss army knife. Goodbye.

It's difficult because as I speak we haven't heard too much. I don't know, listener, what's happening, but I'm just going to nod along. Thank you very much for listening. Goodbye. Bye bye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio.

The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.