Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Ken Follett jigsaw and matching underwear? (with Elly Griffiths)

Episode Date: February 25, 2026

Welcome to this episode of intergenerational strife - Fi's off for the day, so Eve props Jane up. They chat pureed food, search history, the out-of-shape Olympics, children in restaurants and the fading art of the Tannoy. Plus, best selling novelist Elly Griffiths discusses her latest book ‘The Killing Time’. Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And welcome to Wednesday's off-air with Jane and, I mean, there's just no getting away from it. Hi-ah. So, Fee's off today, as she explained yesterday, but she's doing something very important, as she also explained yesterday, and she'll be back tomorrow, won't she? She will. Yeah. But in the meantime. In the meantime. We have intergenerational strife with Eve and me.

Even me. We're crossing the divide. Even I. Julie says, please can we have Eve with her lovely voice clearly Not like she's sitting cross-legged in a box Love the show, says Julie It was Jane that put me in the box That was on Wednesday, on Monday

When we were doing our pilot visualization episode That you only heard in audio form And the emails are still coming in, aren't they Eve? There's no escaping it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, we had some discussions off the back of it And I think also the tininess of the tannoy

was probably quite disruptive if you're trying to doze off. Yeah. And the last thing we want to do is keep people awake. We are working on it. And what's this? Oh, Carla says, you know I love you all. But you being in a different space thing is going to take a bit of getting used to. I listened through my buds. And Eve sounded like a disembodied version of Gladys on the Heidi High Tanoi. Right, do you remember Heidi High?

No. Okay, right, it's wasted on her. Masha, I hope I've pronounced that right, is in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. And she just says, let Eve back in. Let her in. Let me end. I love the idea of Eve just rummaging around, she says. I always imagined her talking to you two from somewhere in the back of the studio,

behind a desk and a pile of files, and breaking in to deliver whichever obscure knowledge from the web or the encyclopedia Britannica, or pointing you to a next topic on the endocrat. agenda or her telling us about her adventures. I've built a whole character profile in my imagination as to whom Eve might be and what she looks like. It's part of the show it seems. Keep up the good work. I'm a true fan. Right. Well I mean that's lovely and thank you very much for joining us from the Netherlands. I need to go back to Amsterdam. Haven't been there since I was 19. Get yourself back

there. Yeah no I should. Where do you have you been there lately? No I haven't. But you haven't done in-I haven't. No I haven't. I went when I was in trailing one summer that I was about 18 years old. Yeah, I didn't quite spend enough time there. No, I only did a couple of days and it's a place I definitely need to explore with an adult head-on. Oh, what happened in Amsterdam without an adult head-on? No, I mean, I went, what year would this have been?

So I was at uni, so I was at uni, so I got there in the end, the summer of 1983 and I went on... Was it a heady? Well, no, it wasn't heady, no. But I went with some friends from school. And we've talked about this because I only went to three places interrailing. I only went to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam

and then we came home. What did you get up to? Well, Amsterdam really shocked me because we went to the Red Light District and I just, Eva, I just wasn't, I wasn't ready for it. It was horrendous back then, actually. Oh, really? Well, to me it was.

I'm sure it was just also horrendous. Yeah, I know. And I'm very, I'd love to hear from people who perhaps been recently or how you interpret what you saw perhaps when you were as young as I was when I saw it. It's pretty horrible, really.

really, if I'm honest. I know you're meant to find that kind of thing sort of faintly, well, no, not ticulating, but I don't know. It was all just horrible. Other was horrible. Right, that's just me, though. Other people will have a very, very different view.

The guest in this podcast is one of my favourite writers, Ellie Griffiths. Now, she's my kind of comfort read, and I am going to ask Ellie who her comfort read is. But yours, you're still battling through your ferantes, aren't you? Literally dragging it out each night, I think. I'm reading about two pages. I go to Naples on Saturday.

Yes. But, yeah, and it has been very comforting. Yeah, so would you say that was the book? Do you think you'll go back and read those books again? I probably won't, to be honest. Right. I feel like they've signified such a moment now in my life. I mean, maybe who can say in a few decades, maybe I will.

Catching up on yesterday's podcast, my first thoughts on your new setup, I just can't hear Eve. Oh, my God, there's another one. She sounds like she's working in a drive-through, taking my order through an intercom, stuffed full of interference. We better just explain again. That was just, it was just a pilot for the visualisation.

So we're back to normal now. We're in the normal studio. The metaphors have got quite far fetched. God almighty. Heidi, hi, McDonald's. I mean, I don't know. We really are. It's a work in progress.

And this isn't going to be every day. Even when we start doing it regularly, it won't be every day, will it? Does that make sense? No, no, it won't. We're going to do Mondays to begin with. That's the email only one.

That's the email only one. God, we show our inner workings here. No one can accuse us of not showing you how we work. Really exposing everything. Yeah, we really do. We're down to the bare bones. Anyway, Julie says, I've got my Wuthering Heights review here. Waste a time. I mean, that probably would do it. She'd stick that on the posters. I read the book at school.

Probably wasn't mature enough to understand the hidden meanings. I'm watching the film. I thought the interpretation was exaggerated for Tisterter. mutilation may be. The use of colour to create mood was good but I felt laboured. What would you say about that? I think that's fair enough. I enjoyed looking at it. It was very stunning, but maybe that was actually one of the only things I personally enjoyed about. Okay, so you took that away. Yeah. I also felt no chemistry at all between Heathcliff and Kathy. And even during the sex scenes, I was yawning. It was so dull, 20 minutes from the end, I said to my partner, will this ever end? In short, don't bother with it, says Julie.

All right, okay. Are you going to bother with that? I'm going to see something else tonight, The Secret Agent. Oh, yes. But I think I'm going to the same cinema where the incident occurred last week, the week before, we couldn't see the film. So everything crossed.

Is that your local one? Well, it's not really local, but it's the one where you get, well, it's local-ish. Okay, it's your regular. It's fairly regular, and it's the one way you can get food taken to you see. Oh, well, you've got to give them another chance. So I'm going to get chicken dippers.

Big nice. Well, for me, Eve, as you know, that is a big night. Right, this is from Kate. I love the fact that the titles sometimes of your emails are just the funniest things. And for some reason, Jan Leaming and Children in Restaurants is the title of an email I never thought I'd read. Oh, by the way, that's got me thinking, actually.

You know all this awful stuff, and I'm not in any way making light of it, all the Epstein stuff and all his emails and people say, oh, they've seized so-and-so's laptops, they're going through their emails. I woke up in the middle of last night and thought, honestly, what would change in my life if somebody had access to my hard drive and look to all my emails?

Oh my God, that's a thought. Well, it kept me awake for about 45 minutes. That's a horrible thought to have in the middle of an eye. Well, no, but I just thought, and I actually thought, would I, would, what sort of trouble? And I don't think, I don't know, there's nothing there. I mean, I'm pretty boring and that's exactly what my emails illustrate. I mean, yeah, I don't think there's anything incriminating in mind a bit. It would just probably be a bit humiliating.

Well, I agree with you. Humiliation is almost inevitable. The fierest exchanges I have really thinking about it, I really was thinking about this in the middle of the night, to my accountant saying, I'm really sorry, I don't understand this. So I don't think you can't be arrested for that, can you? I think maybe mine would be to like virgin media. Right, complaining.

Yeah, when the wife I couldn't work and I've really come to the end of my tether. But then sometimes I think, oh God, what if there's someone I know working one of those officers and they see my name flaked up and I've said something really pathetic. Like, I am really furious with you now. I've reached the end of my tether. I just wonder if anyone else has had, like me, had those middle of the night, what if they get my laptop moments? It's like being in the school assembly.

And do you remember those occasions, I don't know if that happened to your school leave, but where there had been an incident of some type, perhaps in the lavatories. and the head would have to lecture the entire school about how these antics, this behaviour would not be tolerated and I swear down, I was never responsible any of them, but I'd still sit there and go red Yeah, and that's maybe... There was an instance in my primary school,

people used to wet bits of tissue paper and throw them at the ceiling or stick them to the walls. Yeah, and they'd stick and that was the main thing that we'd all get told off of because there were so many it was hard to single a person out. Yeah, but it was not me. Okay, well, I think... we've both made very clear that neither of us have behaved irresponsibly in an institutional

lavatory over the years. Anyway, back to Kate, Jan Leaming and children in restaurants. I wanted to point out some details in Jan's complaint. The mother responded to her complaints by saying that she'd taken the children at 3.30 in the afternoon and the children were 6, 4 and 1. Now, a 6-year-old could be expected to sit quietly, but as Jan's comments referred mainly to a child in a high chair. I think she means that the one-year-old was crying. Well, I've got a two-year-old, and I would take him outside if he really started to kick off. But I do think it's unreasonable to expect perfect, quiet behaviour from a one-year-old. I also really think, if you dislike children in restaurants that much, don't go out at 3.30 in the afternoon. We always go for dinner at the

latest at 5.30, so that anyone wanting a nice romantic dinner for 2 at 7.30 isn't disturbed. But it's also not reasonable to expect parents and children to never eat out, especially when the restaurant in question is a hotel, which it was in this case, and the parents might have been on holiday without any babysitting options. Fundamentally, how does Jan expect children to learn miraculously to behave in restaurants if they're never allowed past the threshold? Well, that's true, isn't it?

Yeah, that is a good point. Yeah, I have to say, though, as a very small child, I don't think we didn't go out to eat. Going out to eat with your children just wasn't. thing. Really young children, I don't remember. I think if we did, it would be, like, I remember we went somewhere where they had a clown come around and performed to the children. It was that sort of establishment. We definitely weren't going anywhere fine, dining. You okay with clowns? A lot of people aren't.

Actually, not anymore, but I was at the time. Oh, do. Yeah, I do know someone who cannot be close to a clown. I think when you get older and you realize that they're sinister in, that the depictions of them are sinister. I've now developed a fear of them. but at the time when I was a child I thought they were great fun. Right. So was it Scooby-Doo or something that turned you off clowns? I'm not the scary films where they are.

Is it like it or something? I haven't watched them because I'm scared of them. Okay, I think some people have never even seen a scary film. Just don't like clowns. We're back with Kate. On a related note, I'm concerned that the rise in screen use at Mealtimes is creating unreasonable expectations about children's behaviour. Now, I think she's onto something here.

We don't use screens at Mealtimes because, limit screen use. It has a negative impact on appetite and learning to eat. And it means that children can't participate in conversations. But we've been told that it would be quotes easier for us and everyone around us if we just parked our child in front of Bluey with headphones on, creating a near silent child for the convenience of other diners. We don't have a rowdy child. He's usually happy with jigsaws or colouring. But he's also not silent. He likes a chat. but it creates an expectation that a so-called good child is a silent one. That's interesting, Kate, thank you.

Yeah, I mean, I must admit, it does disturb me slightly when I see children keeping in line, being kept in line, because they're watching a laptop or an iPad. Yeah, it's a pretty impossible position for a parent because if they're chatty and sort of playing, even in a low-key way, they're going to get chastised, but also if they're sat in front of an iPad, then that's also not right in other people's view either. Did you have any specific techniques to keep the kiddies occupied? To be honest, they just liked eating.

So we were sort of all right. But I did take them out from a relatively young age. But they were used to family meals where everybody sat down. And by the way, I wasn't, we had an email yesterday from someone who talked about puring the shit out of carrot. Oh, yeah. It was very funny if you really much. over and I'm absolutely

just got to out myself as someone I just gave my children jars or I liquidised what the rest of us were eating and just bunged it in front of them and they're fine I mean neither of them's got very tall but I wonder whether that's just a genetic thing I don't think that was going to happen

no I don't think it was you don't need to worry about that I'm not right it wasn't the jazz it wasn't the jazz I can just see the one that my oldest one really loved the most was called Sunday dinner God alone knows what was in that but she loved it Right now I finished

I think I was talking about this with fear yesterday Was I about the lady on ITBX And you finished it already And I finished it and I said I had qualms about it And I wasn't sure But I wanted to see how it ended And I think I don't think I'm wrong in saying It ended on a somewhat ambivalent note

Certainly if you stayed long enough with it To watch the stuff that came up on the screen So the woman in question, Jane Andrews, was diagnosed with a personality disorder when she was in prison. Look, none of it is comfortable. It really isn't. But this is interesting from a listener called Louise, who says, I am belatedly listening to Monday's episode as I fell asleep last night. All right. So I've just caught up listening to your conversation about the lady on ITVX.

I had difficulty like you with the blurring of fact and fiction, so I wouldn't usually watch something like this. However, I've been drawn to it by a revelation in our local community. Here in North Worcestershire, on the outskirts of Kineminster, yes, you're absolutely right. I do know Kidamister reasonably well. Thank you for that, Louise. Lies the little village of Wolverly.

Now it has a pub, a historical society and a little cafe run by an owner called, I don't know whether we should mention him or not, so I'm not going to mention his name. He is funny and warm and keeps us updated with the latest offerings at the cafe on Facebook, usually with witty and often quite rude posts. Now, all that frequent his establishment know that he had a former life in London, mixing with the wealthy party set. He is gregarious and prone to chat with customers over tea cakes.

Imagine our surprise when he took to Facebook a couple of weeks ago to tell us he was in an ITV drama. What fun, I thought, until I read on. It transpires that he was a close friend of Jane Andrews and was questioned by police at the time and has taken part in interviews and documentaries about her many times since. He was also asked to contribute to the script for this drama as he is in it, but he didn't get involved.

He remained loyal to Jane and went to see her in prison for 11 years after her conviction. So I have felt compelled to watch at suddenly feeling that six degrees of separation to the story. I don't recall much of it from the time, so it has been illuminating, and I agree with you, the acting's excellent. However, it is leaving a little of a nasty aftertaste,

knowing that we know other things now. Still, I will no doubt watch it to the end on a separate note. And by God, this is a separate note. It really is, Louise. Going back to the David Sol portrait of last year, do you remember that? The oil painting of David's...

Oh, my God. It was a goodie, that one. Louise says, I loved him and that portrait. We did put it on the instant. I meant to email at the time, but I was too busy. I mean, how can you be that busy? You can't email off air. but I appreciate the fact that she's held on to that thought

and expressed it now a year later. It's coming out, yeah. As an eight-year-old, he was my childhood crush in Starsky and Hodge. Gosh, I didn't have crushes at eight, but I did love Starsky and Hodge, and mind you, I'm older than you, Louise, by the side of things. And there's an intriguing, it's not quite a PS, but you know what I mean? I very nearly got to go out for a drink with him, David Sol, that is,

in elderly edge in 1997, but my own stupidity meant it didn't happen. I'll just leave it there. Right, Louise, well, I don't know, we'll never know now what got in the way of you having a drink with David Sol in Alderly Edge. And I'm assuming you was in Alderly Edge because of the general election in 1997 when he, in a slightly bizarre twist,

was campaigning for Martin Bell in Tatton, which I gather, or imagine, is part of the same constitution. She would see. Eve is just showing me the oil painting, which the portrait, it's not bad. No. I mean, I think in the Instagram caption, I can see that we have relegated it to the downstairs loo. Yeah, okay. Well... Which I think says it all. Yeah, okay. Oh, hang on a sec. I meant to read this earlier and I didn't.

On children misbehaving in public, says Lisa, I freely admit I am the person rolling their eyes and passively aggressively sighing at the children screaming around and running around the pub. while their parents ignore them. But maybe I'm just bitter. I didn't get to do this as a child. We didn't go out much. But when we did, we had to be in our best behaviour and had no fun. So basically, I feel hard done by, as I had no fun then,

and I'm not having any fun now. Oh, Lisa. Get out there, Lisa. Fee suggested that curling can't be all that difficult. I don't know whether she said that precisely. She wouldn't... Anyway, there's a woman on social media from Canada. this is still with Lisa, by the way, doing videos titled Out of Shape Olympics,

where she tries to do as many Olympic sports as possible to show what a regular person looks like doing them. It's really brilliant. And curling looks horribly difficult. Right, that's interesting. The out-of-shape Olympics is where you need to go. I'm sure it's on YouTube. And I bet it is quite entertaining.

We did have, did you actually see the young woman who came in yesterday, Zoe Atkins, who'd won the bronze medal for Britain at the Winter Olympics. She looks very athletic. Well, she did. I mean, when you do meet an Olympian, I feel the same way as when I meet astronauts, as I obviously do quite regularly. They're what we call different gravy.

Yeah. They're just cut from just a different cloth. And I wonder whether the lady who's doing the out-of-shape Olympics, she probably hasn't done out-of-shape space travel. Could you go into space realistically with a grade C-O level in biology and no other qualification. Probably not. Probably not recommended.

That is probably why NASA so far have not come calling. Jane says Longtime listener love the show. Whilst travelling from London to Aberdeen some years ago, the announcer, a strongly accented Glasgow on crossing the border into Scotland,

very proudly announced ladies and gentlemen, welcome to God's country. This was mostly well received, says Jane, because of course there will have been some English folk on the train and perhaps indeed folk from other parts of the UK

and beyond who don't agree that Scotland is the most beautiful part of the UK My driving instructor told me that Yorkshire was God's country when I was in Leeds Yes Did he happen to be from Yorkshire? It's from Yorkshire so it may vary Yeah, Yorkshire folk

That's all I'm saying, not to start anything No, I mean you have already started something A lot of Yorkshire people are stubbornly resistant to the idea that there's anywhere better than Yorkshire And in fairness. When you go. It's beautiful. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Some people, not me, say that people from Yorkshire can be a little careful with Demony. But I didn't. That's just...

Right. No, but it's true. Right, this is from Rachel. Oh, for God's sake. Hi, Jane Fee and Eve the voice, Salisbury. I'm a relatively new listener. It's ridiculous.

Well, you better be on your best behavior, Rachel, if you're a relative new listener. Hi, Rachel. She's only been here for three months. Oh, it must be glorious. Do you want to tell, Rachel, how many podcasts she's got to catch up on? Literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.

I think we're in the six or seven hundreds at the moment. Oh, you see, there we go, Rachel. You'll never have a quiet weekend again. It's all there for you. She's been listening for three months, around three months. She is a first-time emailer. She is from Crosby, so I can do this today, because Fee's not here to get agitated.

Now living in Leicestershire, and I'm three years younger than Jane. I'm still astounded to hear that Jane has a scarcer. I would never have guessed it from the accent, but glad you were a red Jane. Well, I'd, you know. Do you take offence to that? No, I don't. I don't take any.

I mean, my voice is, I can't do much with it now. I mean, obviously, I've modified it over the years and occasionally tried to do a long A way or one. When you were a child, did you have a proper little skin? We were talking about this thing in Liverpool the other day, actually. Scouse accents have got stronger in some parts of the city, but they were never that strong where I grew up. Oh, okay.

You know, it was because Crosby used to be in, I think it was in Lancashire, and then a lot of people got quite angry when Crosby was in a reorganisation of local government was moved into Merseyside. Oh, it's not familiar. Some people in Crosby were quite agitated. But look, it's five miles from Liverpool City Centre. you are in Liverpool. You've stuck with it.

Absolutely, I feel I own it. You've run with it. I listened to the podcast in bed. Tonight you made me laugh so much. I had to get up and write. It was because we were talking yesterday about matching lingerie. I was astonished that Jane

doesn't wear matching knickers and bras, especially as she went to Merchant Tailors. Yeah, well, to be honest, it wasn't something that they absolutely enforced at my school that you had to wear. Well, they obviously didn't. Now, Rachel went to a school I do know called Manah High. It's not called that anymore, is it? But it wasn't the time. I went to Manahe.

And matching knickers and bras were a sign as an adult that I'd made it. Made what entirely? I'm not sure. It's a standing joke in our house, married 36 years next week. Congratulations. That the reason my brother and sister-in-law were not successful in avoiding divorce was the fact that she refused to wear matching undies. Actually, it's a real shame, Fee's not here. She could really help us out with this. this one, couldn't she? We could reread it to her tomorrow and see what she makes him out. Let's put that to one side. Re-menopause, I would also like to know when you know you've reached it.

By the time I get to that point, my thighs will be red-roar from all the medicinal, sticky residue from my HRT patches. Does anybody else have an absolute nightmare trying to get the stuff off? Well, I can tell from this, Rachel, that you are a new listener. Because we have discussed this. Eve's looking glazed because she's literally 22 and doesn't. need to even ever really think about this. But I'm here to tell you that a stiff brush does a wonderful job, Rachel.

Also, a lot of people have recommended Johnson's baby oil, if you want to get shifting, with the grey residue. I feel I'm going to be so prepared for the workforce when it comes. You know what, Eve, you will be able to embrace all the positives and indeed some of the sticky grey residue when it comes your way. We must get on, really, to our guest, Eli Griffiths. But just to say, I'm very grateful to Lucy and Aberdonian living in Melbourne, holidaying in Hobart. That's Tasmania, isn't it? Bear with.

I think it is. I'm going on with this. Dear Jane, Plus Fian Eve, saw this jigsaw, see attached while in Hobart. Tasmania. Thank you. I thought of you. Sorry, a picture will have to suffice, as I was already over baggage lounge on the way here. Right. It's a beautiful, beautiful jigsaw. I mean, it must be, must be a thousand pieces of Kenfold. Now, not his face. No, it's not his face. It's of a cathedral. So I imagine it's a part of his Pillars of the Earth series. It's a tribute to the Pillars of the Earth series.

She does say, point two. It's really sweet that you saw it, took an image, but Lucy couldn't be asked buying it. That's absolutely fine. I'm totally with you there. Point two, she says, it's a rare occasion I leave the house wearing matching underwear. If my socks match, I count that as a wish.

in. Side note, to remember to email, I set a reminder. My husband was most bemused by the words that flashed up on my phone screen at 6 o'clock this evening. Ken Follett jigsaw and matching underwear. There we go. Thank you for being part of our world, Lucy. That's got to be the title of the pod. I think you've given us today's title. We're very grateful to you. And if anyone does work in the shop where they're selling the Ken Follett jigsaw? It's in Hobart. Well, just in case they're feeling generous, We will pay handsomely if you feel like sending the jigsaw. Quite a lot probably to send a...

It will be a thousand. Come on, you've got time on the weekend to complete the jigsaw. Why am I giving people excuses? Yeah, and why am I giving myself an excuse? Everyone knows I've got loads of time to do a jigsaw. Lives in Ledbury, lovely part of the world. Very, very nice market town in Herefordshire. You ever been there?

No, never. Have you ever been to Herefordshire? Yes. Where did you go? I went for a weekend away there, but we just stayed in the vicinity of the house. Sounds extremely vague. Sorry. Right, okay.

I can't even tell you. No, okay, but I do recommend it at some lovely independent stores. In fact, I was looking at a cushion cover I bought in Lerby only this morning. And I was thinking fondly of it and wondering whether I should go back. That reminds me, someone did ask about your sofa.

Oh, yeah, they did. And I'm really grateful to you. Oh, by the way, let's just deal with a complaint. Apparently, I said Tesco's, and you shouldn't say Tesco's, should you? Very common. It's Tesco. Please don't say that, Jane, says Julia.

I can't believe she said it after mentioning the wonderful book, Five Minutes Peace by Jill Murphy. Yeah, and it was in that, and I'm just so sorry. It's Tesco. Thank you for mentioning that somebody has emailed in about my new sofa. I tell you what, this is why I don't need therapy. I should have it, but I've got the podcast instead. I'm with the dinosaur listener here.

I've never emailed, never likely to again. but Jane did mention that she's getting a new sofa and I'm intrigued to hear how it's going well in fairness to me I mean I'm a complete proud obviously but this is my first new sofa in about 20 years oh no you deserve it so it's significant

please share any new sofa updates Janie thank you for that genuinely thank you for bothering it's going quite do you know what there's a certain adjustment isn't it because you're quite deep this one isn't it Yeah, you've got to create your new hollow in the sofa. Find your angle.

I'm thrilled with the colour. It's a kind of... So I also was quite intrigued about Jane's sofa. Yeah, I did ask to see a picture. Yeah, I did ask to see a picture. Actually, before you'd even had it delivered, I actually pulled up the website to see if we could find the specific one. All that suggests, see that you're not exactly rushed off your feet during your working day.

Okay, so I'm not sure whether you can include that. I've not got much going on in my life at all. So I'm getting on with it just fine, but it probably won't be as comfortable as the old one for a while yet. Do you want to describe it? I'm not very good at describing. It's much better. It's relatively low, but I can get out of it.

That was one of my big worries. That I'd need to be winched from it. And, you know, so far it's not going badly in that respect. It's a gorgeous golden velvet construction, is it? Yes, it is. And, yeah, I'm enjoying it. Unfortunately, so is Dora. And that does mean that there's already a bit of fur on the thing.

She's got very portly over the winter. She's going to have to get herself in order that thing. If Dora's in the kind of spot that you want, do you just let her have it or do you shuffle her along? I'm so pathetic. I sometimes let her just have it. Yeah. But she's had a really busy.

It shows the kind heart. Yeah, we had five window cleaners in this morning. Five! She's live in the shard. Why not have you? Five. No, my winter cleaner, who's been my window cleaner for many minutes. He's a window cleaner to the stars, isn't he?

He was doing the houses either side of me. So he just came slightly mob-handed. He's a lovely bloke, and I don't want to, in any way, I'd be rude about him. But I think he is doing quite well. Well, he's cleaning your window. He's taken on a few more people, so. But that makes it sound like I live in a mansion. I wish we'd never started this.

What I was actually going to say was, Dora gets very discombobulated when there are loads of men in the house, and she went and just sit here this morning. She didn't interact with them at all. How often have that loads of men at that? Right. Let's end with Livin Ledbury, and I started reading this email in about 2023.

Fee needs to know there is no human behind the tannoy in Aldi. Do you know what I've bought in Aldi recently? This is just a little tip. Some handwash, which is a rip-off of a very posh hand wash. and it's quite nice My husbandate got the same She went to Lidl And it smelled divine

I couldn't believe it It'll do that today Really nice Well Aldi do a good rip-off one too I mean it's the same smell Anyway This is from Living Libri We found some

Oh God We found somebody's purse In the fruit and vegile In Aldi And we immediately handed it in Suggesting that somebody Making an announcement Over the Tannoy right away

Because you know Why wouldn't you in case the owner was still in the shop. Yeah, it would help, wouldn't it? Yeah, sensible. Only to be told, there were no live announcements. All that we're now opening till 5 for your convenience stuff is just a pre-recorded announcement.

I take such issue with that because there were so many times as children that we got lost in the supermarket and had to get the tannoy to help us. And it could be so distressing when you lose your mum. That can't be good. They won't let anyone do a live-in-law. Sensitive note you just injected there, Eve.

I don't normally associate you with such lovely thought. Okay, yes, and of course you, as a veteran of the tannoy in a supermarket, you're speaking with some expertise. On another matter, Liv says, the mad little habits that we all have are called Mishigas in Yiddish. Mishigas. I like that very much. And that is in relation to the correspondent yesterday who talked about that habit she has of moisturising and then she's in her bathroom and then not being able to turn the doorknob because she's moisturised. Just greased it up.

Everywhere. Well, that was a really interesting addition. Mishigas, I'm going to take that. Thank you, Liv. And that's another mention for Lebris. How many more bloody times are we going to big up this admittedly very pleasant market town in Lebray? Right. Now to our big guest this afternoon. It's Ellie Griffiths, who's back in the top ten bestsellers with her latest Ali Dawson novel

the killing time. Now this is a return to the 19th century for Cole case detective Ali, whose cat Terry has gone missing. A colleague at her secret time-travelling unit offers to send Ali back just a couple of days so she can shut her cat flap. But it all goes belly up, and before she knows it, Ali's wearing a corset, enjoying an early morning cup of tea from an exhausted servant called Gladys and going to the great exhibition. Let's face it, could have happen to any of us. Ellie, fantastic to see you again. How are you? I'm really well, thank you. Thanks for having me back. Well, you're quite popular with me. Oh, that's nice. And actually, with an emailer who's just said, I'm so excited about your conversation with Ellie Griffiths.

I discovered her recently and have the three, three more Ruth Galloway books ready by my bed, good to go. Oh, that's great to hear. I love to think of books piling up by someone's bed. Well, no, I've got the zigzag, the zigzag murders. Oh, yeah, the zigzag girl, yes. Girl, that's by my bed, because I'm going to start that series next as well. Oh, that's so good, thank you. I think you attract readers like myself and indeed like Virginia who like to stack up a place of literary sanctuary by our beds. Oh, I love the sound of that.

Yeah, I know. It's good, isn't it? So we did talk to you a year or so ago, and we then did acknowledge, and you acknowledge that Ellie Griffiths is not your name. That's right. So I call you, Ellie, in the course of the interview, and you're fine with that, but that's not what you're called, really. No, it's not. Yeah, absolutely fine with Ellie.

I'm very in Ellie mode today, but my real name's Domenica. It's a Domenica de Rosa, and I think we chatted last time about how, I always thought that was the perfect writer's name. I thought I had the perfect writer's name, and I was originally published as Domenica,

but then when I wrote a crime novel, I was told to get a crime name. So Ellie is my crime name. And it's also the name of a relative, isn't it? It is, yeah, my grandmother was Ellen Griffiths. And I don't know why I wasn't Ellen, actually, but I honestly think it's because Ellie fits really neatly between the G and the F on my covers.

I mean, you're right, It is weirdly a crime name. But, I mean, I always think a crime name is like, you know, Razoron and things like that. But somehow it works as a crime writer. I think it might just be a British thing because, of course, I think in Italy, Domenica de Rosa might well be a great crime name.

But I think, I think Ellie Griffiths is just, well, it sounds gritty, doesn't it? I think it's. And there's also the thing I don't know, but this is great for you and I, actually. But the thing that authors with FGH names sell better. Have you heard that one? I haven't. Tell me more about this.

If you go into a bookshop, the idea is that A's at the top and Z's at the bottom, but FGH is on eye level. Wow, okay. So that is good for us. So if you're struggling and your name's Alan, your surname's Alan, just quite simple. Change your name.

Absolutely. Change it to an FDRH name. It is one of those things that doesn't hold up to even the slightest bit of interrogation. We will get emails about this, but anyway, spirited. I've enjoyed it. Thank you. Okay, so those are. people are familiar with this latest series because you have specialised in creating

central female characters and then letting them journey through a series of experiences. Dr Ruth Galloway is your archaeologist and lecturer. Yes. And you've finished with her. For now, for now. For now. For now.

Okay. And Ali Dawson is your time travelling police detective. I appreciate you've written other books, notably about Brighton as well. And police work there and the ZigZag Girl as well. is the start of another series. Keep up at the back. But Ali Dawson works for a cold case crime unit. I mean, they're not just cold cases though, are they? They're not, no. The joke amongst the team and it's a tight-knit team, I realise that I really like writing about teams, is that

their cases are so cold or so old really because they're frozen. So they call themselves the frozen people, but actually their cases are so cold and so old because they go back in time to solve them. Right. Now, ordinarily, I don't believe in time travel, except there's something about the straightforward nature of your writing that makes me think that in fact it could well be possible. Oh, I'm so glad. Do you actually think, honestly now, do you think it is? I don't think it is really.

But you never know. We travel in time every day, except we go forwards rather than backwards, and time behaves differently on the top of a mountain to the bottom of a mountain. So I guess that it could be possible. And if you read Carla Raveli, the Order of Time, he makes you honestly believe it is possible. But I just hoped that, I guess I hope that if people related to the characters of my book, they might take the time-travelling leap with me. And I kept thinking about that TV show, do you remember Life on Mars?

Yes, yeah. And I just kept thinking to myself, I don't know why they time-travelled. I mean, there is an explanation. Honestly, don't remember it. But what I remember are the characters, you know, particularly, you know, the wonderfully awful Gene Hunt, the detective. And I just hope that if people really sort of related to my characters, they might take that leap into time travel with me.

Well, the latest book, The Killing Time, is set both in 2024 in the weeks before the general election, which now seems like a lifetime ago. It really does. But it was only about 18 months ago, it's weird. And the great exhibition in 1851. So it's July. It's always the same season, isn't it? Well, it was actually cold in the frozen people.

I think it was, oh, I see what you mean, the same season that you left from. In your books, I thought you could only time travel back to the same season. Yes, you're exactly right, sorry. I know more about your books. You really do, I'm so sorry. Yeah, this, but basically the first book's very cold and this one's very hot.

Yes, and it really comes across that life in a corset, in a heat wave, is no fun at all. No. I'm going to have to, or you're going to, I'm going to throw it over to you, I want you to set the scene here for people who haven't read the first book and are thinking, well, I'm right. sure I buy this. What is the setup in the second book? So in the second book, time travel, of course, goes badly wrong in the first book, because if you invent a way of time travel,

it has to go wrong. So time travel's been banned for the group. And Ali's actually investigating a real cold case, which is that of a rather sinister psychic, who might have been the cause of a young man's death. And then, which is where I'm hoping my readers will go with me on this. then something kind of terrible happens, well very terrible happens, in that Ali's cat goes missing. And she wants to just go back in time for four days just to shut the cat flap. For me, that's a very reasonable reason.

I mean, it's Terry. It's Terry, her cat, you know, she has to go back. So she asks her colleague Bard if he can do it. And he takes her back. But in fact, he takes her back a long way too far. She's in 1851. She's in time for the great exhibition. she meets an old friend,

she also possibly meets the sinister psychic, and I'm going to just do a bit of a spoiler, she does meet Terry, her cat. Yes, okay, a few. I mean, so many of our listeners are cat lovers, they'll need to know. Well, I'm the same. It is that whole thing about, you know,

does the cat live? Yeah, the cat's fine, yeah, is a cat. Right, few. The great exhibition, I sort of thought I knew about it, but I realised reading this that I don't know much about it. It was on an incredible scale, wasn't it? It really was on an absolutely amazing scale, and really it's because of the great exhibition.

exhibition and Prince Albert's sort of dream, that we have the National History Museum, the Natural History Museum, the Science Museum, Imperial College, the Royal College of Music. We have all that because of this amazing thing. That was him? Yes, they all came from that, really, from this great outpouring of interest in natural history and science and the art. So it really was quite an incredible thing. And although lots of the elite went to it, there were whole villages sort of in the

the countryside that were bust out to the great exhibition. And in fact, there are really funny cartoons in punch about men complaining that their wives no longer do housework, because they keep going to the great exhibition. So I feel that's a good reason in itself, isn't it? It was in Hyde Park. Yes, it was in Hyde Park. And how long did it run for? Well, it ran for a lot. I can't remember off how, but it ran for a really long time. So there's plenty of time, more than once, yeah. And what was there, new inventions, stuff that wasn't really in households yet? Yeah, definitely new inventions, like new sort of steam inventions, new mining works and things like that.

But also there was quite a lot. I suppose I'd always thought about it a bit in that bit of my mind that is called science and industry. But actually there was a lot of artistic. There was a lot of stained glass, stained glass windows, jewelry, fabrics, textile, things from around the world. The Coenor Diamond was there. So there was really, it ranges across, you know, the arts and science and decorative arts, of course, very well represented. So it must have been an amazing thing. And I think when Ali goes in there, she says that she thought the Victorian era

as sort of black and white or sepia, but this is Disneyland. There are creepy tones, though, to this book, as they were with the frozen people. And there is, I did know, that there's quite a passionate link between the Victorians and spiritualism. And I was always told that was because,

well, people lost, so many children. But people must have lost children forever. I mean, people lost children really until very, very recently. It was a matter of course that you'd have many children and unfortunately quite a few of them would die. Yeah, yeah, really tragic. And as you say, until really recently, I think there were a couple of other things at play in the Victorian era. There was a bit of a collective loss of faith because there was a book called The Life of Christ which said, which was translated into English by George Eliot. And it said, which I don't think is that controversial today, but then it was, it said that the Gospels weren't written at the time of Christ's life, that at least three of them

were written a long time afterwards. And for the Victorians, I think it was like telling them that gospel truth wasn't true. And then you have the origin of species and Charles Darwin and they were told they weren't descended from angels, they were descended from apes. So I think there was a bit of a scurrying round to try and find something to believe in, hence spiritualism and mesmerism, which comes into this book. Well, Mesmer, I've used the word mesmerized, I suppose, over the years. Never had a clue where it came from. So tell me who Mesmer was and why he's still actually having an influence today.

Yeah, Fram's Mesmer was, he studied at the University of Vienna. He was really educated man, and he believed in something called animal magnetism, which meant you could sort of channel the magnetism within the human body to cure you or to take you into trances and things. And he had a huge following, including Charles Dickens, including some very famous people believed in him. And he gave these incredible shows, which I've tried to recreate in the book, really,

where he just made people go into trances and do strange things. Charles Dickens also believed that he could do mesmerism. And he's in the book, isn't he? He is in the book, yeah. Ali meets him very briefly, but she is seized by this almost uncontrollable urge to tell him about the Muppet Christmas. Carol.

She can't do that. They just aren't enough words. They just aren't enough words. But he describes to her, which this is true, that he did a mesmeric experiment on a woman called Augusta de la Rue. And I think it's quite Dickens

that with him, the gift only worked on attractive women. Right, okay, handy. Yes. That hasn't entirely gone away, has it? I think occasionally you do see posters up for a psychic evening somewhere. Oh yes, absolutely.

There's a massive world psychics out there and also online psychics you can you can get in touch online and get a reading and I think I think it is still there and I'm I don't have any answers I just have a lot of questions I'm always been very interested in what people believe really and why you haven't ever been to see a psychic not personally I did go in the course of I mean not one to one but I did go in the course of researching another book with a friend to a sort of big psychic um display I don't really know the word for it show um which was very, very interesting.

I mean, a lot of it was that whole thing about, you know, your grandmother is old. And people saying, oh, gosh, yes, she is. You must be psychic. That's amazing. And she has grey hair. Yes, wow. But actually, there were other things that were less easy to explain, really.

So it was an interesting evening. Okay, so there genuinely were moments during that evening where you got a jolt. Yeah, definitely. How have they done that? Yeah. I mean, I know it's easy enough for someone to come on and say Mary is coming through.

Well, how many of us? Yes, and all those names that if you pick the right era, you can get the right sort of names, can't you? You wouldn't get Domenica, though, so I'd be very... I'd be a real challenge. If they did get Domenica, I would be really, really... Yeah, me too. I mean, Ali has her misgivings about 1851

because there's a lot that shakes her liberal 21st century thinking, isn't there? Yes. And I was intrigued. First of all, the expression, home James, is something that I've definitely used. Is it true that every single coachman was just called James? Well, I think it was a thing that people just called their coachman, just not bothering to, yes, that's not bothering to find out their real names.

And there's also the fact that she rather enjoys being waited on by a servant when she goes to stay with a former colleague from the 21st century who's wound up, slightly stuck in 1851, but is actually enjoying herself. You'll have to read the book to find out who that is. Oh, yes. But the servant puts a tea by her. bed and I was thinking, oh, you know, that would actually be all right. I think Ali is really torn in this book and that there is, it's really ambivalent about it,

because of course, on one hand, it's pretty nice to this time round. First time she went to the 90th century, she lived a very sort of hand-to-mouth existence. And here she's suddenly quite wealthy in somebody of substance. She loves the clothes. She loves the tea by the bed. She loves to have a bowl of warm water to wash with until she realizes that poor Gladys has to walk up three flights of stairs with this bowl of water. So I think she's constantly guilty.

She says at one point she thinks the guilt's going to kill her. But on the other hand, it's rather nice. It's rather nice to wear lovely clothes. Yeah, she is very good, though, and she doesn't get Gladys to fill a bath for her, does she? No, this is her colleague's peculiarity is that she likes to have a bath, which they think is all a little bit strange. But Ali can't bring herself to ask for that much water to be brought up the stairs.

It's lovely quite a shift for Gladys. Yes, yes. She doesn't like, this is Ali we're talking about now, the corset, as I mentioned earlier, and in the heat, she gets something that I gather was quite common called corset itch. Corset itch, yes, I read up on it. And doesn't it sound really horrible? Really horrible. And just that whole feeling of not being able to scratch them sort of being sort of tight-laced in that hot weather.

But of course, being wealthy, she can ask her ladies' maid to sort of sponge her down and make that a bit easier, which, again, she feels quite guilty about. It does make things a little easier, yes. Imagine wearing all those clothes in that weather, really. When did corset stop being worn? Because I mean, I've got a vague memory of helping my grandmother into certainly a support garment of quite structured. Well, in some ways, or stays lasted for a very long time, didn't they? Yes. They must have done. And the sort of version of that, I think.

Of course, the silhouette changes and it's changed a lot by the end of the century. But generally speaking, I suppose in 1920s that was maybe when women were a bit freer. But certainly some people were in courses until quite recently. And her hair, Ali, is forced to wear a wig in 1851. And again, that's incredibly it. She causes real discomfort. Yes. She loves the idea of having a profusion of hair.

But of course she realizes she shouldn't think too much about the provenance of the hair because it's probably... Well, that's it. It's probably come from a poor woman, isn't it? Probably has from poor woman or a poor dead woman. So she tries not to think about that. But she does quite like having, you know, glamorous wig, who wouldn't really, but underneath is her own hair, her own sort of bright

red, her sort of fire engine red hair. So that's an added discomfort. And there's a bit where she gets a headache. And it made me think about what did you do? What did you do when you, you couldn't just have a neurofen or... Do you know, that's exactly what I was thinking. There's really very little about living in 1851 that appealed. Yes, it was a time of great discovery and the great exhibition does sound remarkable. I would like to have gone. I would have gone if I've been around. Yes, yes, me too. But the idea of a baking hot day, an itchy corset and one of those heads you get in the summer and having nowhere to turn?

No, it doesn't really appeal to me. I have to say, yes, time of inventions and excitements and I can see that, of course. I'd love to see lots of horses around because I love horses, but of course some of them are very badly treated, so that would be awful. So we can't think, apart from horses and nice clothes, much really to recommend it.

And in the heat, I just think it must have been awful. But she does put a cloth with vinegar on it over her eyes, which is meant to make it. I was going to try that next time I have one of my heads. Me too. I'll just do it Victorian-styly and I'll lie down and put a damp cloth with vinegar. Yes. Let me know how that goes and get someone to bring you tea.

You'll be delighted to know that I will let you know how it goes. There was something else I wanted to ask you about. Again, something else I'd never heard of. But I live in a relatively old house. I think I've determined that it was built 1913, something like that. So that would make it Edwardian. Yes, yeah. Just about.

It might be a bit older than that. And sometimes I do think about the people who've lived there before, and I went to the National Archives, and you don't even need to go there to do it. There's a website where you can find out who's lived in your house. And I found the list of people who lived in my house during the Second World War, and it's really, it does something to you. It really does, doesn't it?

Yeah, so in the book, you do discuss something called stone tape theory. Now, what is this? It's the idea, and it's just a theory, really, but it's an idea that buildings can retain a memory, that there is a memory within stone or within brick or within walls. And I think it's very tempting to believe in that. In fact, in the third book, which I'm writing now, Ali does go back to the Second World War

because she lives in the East End of London and her house was still standing. She finds out in 1851. And of course, during the Second World War, you had the terrible London Blitz, and the East End suffered terribly. So Ali's going to find herself in the midst of that. So, yeah, there is a theory that buildings retain memory.

Again, I have no answers, only questions, but we've all been to places, haven't we, that feel like they have an odd atmosphere. Oh, definitely. Or also places that we feel we've lived in before. And there's no real answer to that, I don't think. Well, Ali, when she goes back in time and visits her house, because she couldn't live in a new build, Ali, could she? The stories just wouldn't work if she did. She does live in, not ancient, but an old London house. And so she knocks on the door in 1851.

on in the door. Then she knocks on a neighbour's door and it's opened by somebody that she does recognise. Yes, because her neighbours have already told her. And Ali moves in the first book, she moves to this house, which is in the East End. And I wanted that to be really central to all the books really. And as the books go on, you're going to find out a bit more about all her neighbours. Yes, but her neighbour, I think two doors on, Irene Goldman says that her family

lived there for generations. So when the door opens, it's Irene's great-great-grandmother standing there with a shawl round of shoulders. I'm getting all quite chivalry. So when we do see people that we think we know, it might simply be that in a previous life we've met their great, great, great, granddad. It could be, and I think Jones says that at one point in the book,

that these could be time travellers all around us. Who knows? Have you lived before? I don't know that I have really. I don't have. I know some people do have sort of strong past life memories. I don't really. I think I'm a new soul like Dina in the book.

New soul, okay. Now, last week I talked to a writer who was incredibly nervous, Jenny Godfrey about the release of her second book. I listened to that. It was lovely. At the barbecue at Novenny. She was so worried. You're already in the top ten with this book.

But do you have those moments pre-publication? Because every book you've written has been a success. But I really do mean it. You do bring a lot of pleasure to people. But do you have a slight fluttery tummy? Definitely. And I've got to say that barbecue at number nine or 11. I can't remember which Jenny's new book is amazing.

And it did make the top ten. So she should be so happy with that. and the reception it received. I'm still worried. I'm still worried with everyone. And do you know it gets a little bit worse, I think, with each book, particularly the Frozen People, was very nerve-wracking because it was something new.

As you said, there were 15 Ruth books. I'd said that book 15 was going to be the last. I've still only said last for now. Yeah, you've been a bit cagey about that. But I've been a bit cage about that. But I knew some people were sad about that, and I wanted them to really love Ali and the new series. So I was really happy that it was well-received.

and then book two is always a big test of any series, really. So this one was huge fun to write, but that doesn't always mean that people are going to have huge fun reading it. So I really hope that people do. Ellie Griffiths, and The Killing Time is already a bestseller. If you're a fan of Ellie's work, you're probably already even now listening to it, or you've got your hardback, or you're waiting, chomping at the bit for the paperback. And I'm sure there'll be more to come from Ellie very soon because she does write them.

She's a very disciplined writer, hugely successful. Lovely to talk to her. Fee will be back tomorrow. Thank you very much for all the emails. Honestly, it's so lovely coming in in the morning and seeing what you've written. And even if you are often complaining or referencing Eve, we still love hearing from you.

We do, honestly. It's jane and fee at times.radio. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this, live and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case uh so you can get

the radio online on d a b or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosy cutler