Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Kind Regards, Jane and Fi

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

The Lady has landed, and it's causing a stir... Jane and Fi also chat sufferable men, bonny babies, Lucozade, and 80085. Plus, Phyllida Lloyd — director of The Iron Lady, Mamma Mia!, and Tina: The Tina Turner Musical — joins them (with some minor tech issues). The next book club episode is coming this Friday. The book is 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, I'm curious about most things. I'm really interested in some things. And I'm really, in all honesty, only really bored by motorsport. Now is of course Book Club Week, and I mention it because we've just done a lovely conversation haven't we? We've just recorded a conversation with somebody who knew Hilary Mantel very well. Nicholas Pearson, her publicist, who was really engaging and so nice to meet somebody who knew her and obviously had a very good relationship with her. So he's answered lots

of questions and you'll be able to hear the book club edition on Friday. And thank you for all of your incredibly thoughtful comments about the book. And I would say probably eight out of ten of you really enjoyed reading it and had the same level of delighted surprise that Jane and I have had at Hilary Mantel's ability to write something contemporary and not historical, which is where the whole thing started, wasn't it? But also without giving away too much of what he said, he did also acknowledge that Hilary Mantel had misgivings about the book, some of which have been expressed in the emails we've had. So we're all on the same page. What a wonderful way of putting it.

So that's the book club coming away as a bonus ball for Friday. That is our spin-off podcast, isn't it? We're so grand. On the same page. We've now got a spin-off. Yes. I think, you know, everything's about branding, isn't it? That's another thing that I learned from Stephen Bartlett.

He's a man I just can't work out whether I love him or hate him. I might just have to retain strong feelings on both sides of the coin. Sometimes I really love watching him on Dragon's Den because he asks the questions that the others are just too rich to ask. Oh really? I've never seen that programme. Oh gosh, we do love it in our house. Do you? I've never seen that program. Oh gosh, we do love it in our house. Yeah, just because they choose the businesses who go into Dragon's Den so brilliantly. So you'll have something that's really quite kind of scientifically advanced up against a unique pooper-scooper. And you're just, you're left bewildered as the viewer as to which one would actually make any money.

And it's quite, you know all the dragon, they're so rich, all these piles of money next to them. Piles of money, Jane. And they will, they actually do invest their own money? They do, yeah. OK, right. I suppose you have to have a few quid to be on the panel then, don't you?

You do, yeah. Right, we're too busy at the moment being horrified by how our pensions are plunging. So if you're in the same position, we hear you. We hear the screams from where we're sitting right now. But hey, what is it they always say? You've got to be in it for the long term. It's long term your pension. Go up and down. What's the other one? Past future performance is no... Guarantee. What? No, past performance is no guarantee of the future.

Basically, when they say your investment future. Future... Oh, I don't know. Basically, when they say your investment can go up or down, I only hear up. No, I only hear down. Well, I should have heard down because that's what's happened. Yeah. No, I think that's why so many women don't invest because in that phrase, I only hear down. And I think, oh no, the youngster willy is up. I only heard the Yaz version of it. Anyway look it's a first world worry and I'm sure he knows what he's doing. I'm not sure.

Right I just want to mention Esther because I love that name and she says I get a lot of joy from interactions between podcasts I love and follow. I'm thinking specifically of times when you have name checked the rest is entertainment and I can't believe they didn't read your question out for you. Thank you. They didn't. They never did. No. Or when you've interviewed the Olivers I love miss me or even the occasions I listen to the North American podcast Handsome and they mention the UK in passing or attempt terrible faux British accents. Well we must listen to that, I had no idea people attempt faux British accents.

That must be diabolical. Esther goes on to recommend the Parenting Hell podcast. She says she finds it cathartic as she has similar aged kiddies to Josh and Rob. Esther has emailed before, it's the first time she's been read out. Esther, I'm so glad you're listening and keep in touch and keep recommending. We love other people's recommendations. Can we just say a very quick hello to Joanna. A short note from me, I've written in a couple of times and have been read out only once but much to my absolute delight. I also saw it at the Barbican with my later in life love, soon to be second husband

Piers. Oh, congratulations. Congratulations. He bought the tickets as a present and was bravely one of the few men there. Oh, welcome Piers. He gets rubber stamped by us. What a keeper. Please see attached a snap of me setting off from the salon donning my foils. This is not the first time on this occasion I had dogs to collect from the groomer at least half an hour of waiting on my hands. Two birds one stone. I live in rural Gloucestershire near Stroudon down a narrow country lane on a hill. I passed a local bus which was full of passengers. Due to the narrow passing point the bus and I passed each other very slowly giving all of the passengers on one side a long long look at me from an elevated

position. I did find myself feeling a little awkward but luckily the position of the right side foils acted like a horse's blinker so I just looked straight ahead mostly shielded from the gazes. Another matter is a top tip apropos of nothing in particular but which I feel fellow listeners might find helpful in order to read in the bath without glasses steaming up Just pop them onto the heated towel rail or radiator when you're running a bath. What? Magic! They don't steam up and you can read to your heart's content. Because they're hot? Yeah, isn't that brilliant? Okay. So that goes in our other spin-off which we're going to approach Netflix with which is called Kind Regards Jane and Fee. You see what we've done there? I do. You're on top form, which is just as well because today is one of those days that

has so much news it's kind of it's like a pan that's sort of bubbling over and is going to make a terrible mess of the stovetop. We've got the phone call haven't we? Not since Beatty was phoned by her granddaughter with theology, as a phone call had quite so much tension. Yeah, if you're listening to this in future times, or way back when, we don't know, because time is, you know, we don't know. This is the phone call between, I hesitate to say this, presidents, Trump and Putin. I hope that doesn't mean anything to you if you're listening in a hundred years from now.

Do you think they'll do that thing that you always do when you're talking on a landline where at the beginning it's just really uncomfortable, you both speak at the same time, waiting for the other one to say, is it a pause or has the phone gone dead? What's happening? And then the translators, it's all a very complicated business isn't it? I don't pretend to fully understand how they operate these things. Well it's arrived, this month edition of The Lady. As you know now The Lady actually endorses our coverage of The Lady because the editor sent her a lovely email last month. Yeah saying that they didn't mind. All publicity is good publicity. She knows publicity absolutely. Good luck to her. It's a very successful publication. So we've got a couple of personals to read to you but we'll save those for a

bit later. You've got an email that's obviously bursting out of its seams. It's from Sarah. Recently on the podcast listeners were talking about their experiences at the hairdressers when they're there for absolutely ages due to having colour. This triggered me to contact you, as someone who's never had my colour done at the hairdressers. I'm now in my early 50s and I am, or maybe now, I should say I was, a redhead. I say was, as my hair is now a considerably faded version of ginger, but I like to think it's still recognisable as ginger. However, recently I've had a few situations where people meeting me for the first time clearly have no idea that I have or used to have ginger hair. I'm surprised myself by my reaction to this and it's made me aware

how my identity as a redhead is more important than I thought it was. Friends joke about me identifying with the redheaded community and being part of the redhead clan and I'd be really interested to hear from other listeners whose red locks have now faded, not gone grey as we redheads don't go grey as such and whether they have colour or have noticed that others do not recognise them as redheads anymore. I think that's really interesting and it's true isn't it that people with gingerish hair do not go grey there is that I think rather stylish fading of their hair which is a

very very different thing and anyway Sarah formerly very much a member of that community now feels that she's I don't know becoming adjacent to it but needs to be recognized as a redhead. Interesting point I've never thought about that. I've never thought about that. No, I'd never thought about it either. But as we are now in the boxing day of St Patrick's Day, we can move into more Scottish themes. OK, we're allowed to.

Well, we're kind of Celtic themes, because obviously there are lots of Irish gingers and also a fair sprinkling of Scots as well, aren't there? I really did get a little bit fed up yesterday of just every single thing I looked at. Oh, I know, how does St Patrick's Day theme? It's too much, isn't it? Yes, it was way too much. Get over it. Yeah.

Fifth century that bloke was tottering around. And we don't even know whether he went to Ireland, do we? I don't, well, I don't know. No, I mean, I don't, well I don't know. No, I don't know either. But yes, so in the five centuries before he existed, what do people do on the 17th of March? Just have a nice lie down, it's a quiet March day. I mean it's just a bit tricky when it falls on a Monday as well, isn't it? Yeah, well that's right, there won't be much work done in some places today. Nope, disgusting. So anyone of Irish ancestry who's also a fan of Newcastle must be feeling really, really, really probably dead. This comes in from N who says I'm one of your more youthful listeners at the tender age of 39 but I thought I could offer some

words of wisdom to your listener who unexpectedly found herself single in her early 30s. I thought I was happily married at 29, having married my university boyfriend a year before. However, he met someone else at a new job and decided three months after meeting her that she was the one for him. We owned our home, had a two-year-old dog and had just celebrated our first anniversary when he shared the news to say it was a shock was an understatement. But I can honestly tell your listener that once the fog cleared I am now truly happy again and am in such a different place in my life that I can't imagine having been happy with my ex. I was by the way, apart from him being a complete arse at the end. Well put. Finding myself living alone at 31 with my dog I kept him, which was definitely one of

the best decisions I've made, enabled me to work out who I was as an adult. I'd never had a chance to do this for myself as my ex and I had built our life together, focused on a much more sociable and on paper cooler life than I found out I enjoyed once given complete freedom to choose how I spend my weekends. I found my own happiness in a newly bought sewing machine, cooking, hiking, my friends are amazing, making me try new things, meet new people and generally looking out for me. But there is no doubt about it, the comparison sadness is real. I spent a lot of baby showers, weddings, hen doos, feeling an overwhelming feeling of sadness. I learnt that your friends will support you, but you must tell them how it feels. When I opened

up honestly to them, they were amazing and understanding. My friends were then amazing at deflecting conversations in wider social circles and on one memorable occasion telling a friend of a friend that a third of marriages end in divorce and I just got in early. N goes on to say, Fee and Jane were right that this sort of perspective at such a young age is now something I think of as a gift. I do still find myself comparing myself to friends, especially as my partner and I are currently struggling to conceive and I might have to accept that children are not in my future. I have moments when I think what if and what could have been. But the last 10 years and my U-turn at 30 tells me that if children don't happen then life will

still be good. My new husband is amazing and we've done so many amazing things in the last 10 years that I would never have done with my ex. I genuinely wouldn't have changed things if I can go back. Wishing the other listener all the strength and future happiness ahead. Our community is just lovely. That's such a thoughtful email to write. You know, I'm sure that Jane shares my enthusiasm for your future life, but also just I'm admiring of your clarity actually to be able to put all of that down and I just think you're so right on that point about not really knowing who you are if you have shared your

young adult life with somebody all the way through because those huge defining years actually after you leave university you've thud into the big wide world, you've got to make all of those very grown up decisions, they're so tedious tedious. But you're making them with somebody and that's different. But you're also making compromises that you don't realize you're making until you don't have to make them anymore. Which I guess is true in every relationship. But there's something special about that time of life. And also let's just acknowledge the pain there at thinking that your future path was set only for the whole apple cart to be turned over so unexpectedly.

Yeah. And look, tragedy can hit any of us at any time, but that does sound like a really tough one. But look, things are most definitely looking up for you. Yes. And the very best to you and your partner as well. Very much so, and thank you for taking the time to write and I suppose most of all we just hope that that helps the listener who wrote it in the first place. Let's shout out to Sharon up there in North Yorkshire.

Sharon! I just want to say thank you for keeping me company or if she's had a very virulent sickness bug. Oh! Only two things were palatable. Sorry, got any more details? No. Off air and LucasAid sport were all that Sharon could put up with. You'll be on the men soon Sharon, thank you very much. LucasAid, when I was poorly as a child, you remember the comforting crinkle of the gold wrapping? Yes, it was very snazzy, wasn't it?

But also, you only had to see Lucas Aiden, hear the crinkle, to feel a bit poorly. Because you'd think if your mother put it by the bed, that was a sure sign. Oh gosh, well, we were only allowed it if somebody had gone into hospital. We weren't allowed it at home. What you'd, oh, what you drank it, oh, I think you meant you drank it at home because a relative was in hospital. No, no, we didn't go, cheers! I think you drank it at home because her relative was in hospital. No, we didn't go, cheers!

Auntie Ethel's in for a gallstones crack open the loose. That's what I thought you meant. Because every family has its traditions. Who am I to comment? Oh no, so you only had it if you were in hospital. Yes, I think my sister had a tonsils and adenoids, well I know she had a tonsils and adenoids which is about 12, but I think she was allowed to have leukosate after that, but we were never allowed at home. I was allowed to sip from it after I'd had a bath.

Were you? Yes. Well, it's obviously given you greater strength later on in life. Oh yeah, but it's a triumph of marketing that has been completely reinvented as a very butch drink drink but it was very much the sustenance of the invalid when I was... It was wasn't it? Really, no, it really was.

That's a good point. I'd love to be in that board meeting where somebody went... Did a presentation. Does this look right? Not anymore. Tracy's annoyed with us. I've not emailed you before but I had to let out my feelings on the subject of younger women and older men. Well I think this is an interesting one. It is. I'm so cross with the double standards you both sometimes display.

Oh look, we're guilty. That's George, Mum. March me down to the cells. There are many older women who choose to date younger men for the same reasons that men do. I've been married for 35 years and I know that if anything happened to my husband, then I would remain single as I don't fancy men my own age. That's 60. The grey bushy eyebrows, baggy eyes, wrinkly skin, hair exploding from the nose and eyes. I'm always reminding my husband to groom. My current crush is Leo Woodle from One Day. So attractive. I could never date someone younger than me as I'm too wrinkly as well. I just can't bear listening to double standards coming

from feminists. If I had to put a tag on myself then I would be an equalist while I'm ranting. Please could you stop with the strong northern accents while you're joking? OK, sorry. We're really pissing this woman off off aren't we? But we take it. I mean to be fair to us, we do read the criticism and we even read it out. Find the other podcast that do that. Anyway, says Tracy, I really enjoy listening to you both but just something for you to consider. So, okay, the fancying younger men thing.

This is, I think, a fascinating area genuinely, so I am grateful for this email, because the truth is, can we just be honest, I sort of understand what she means about not finding men of my own age, which is by the way idiotic of me to acknowledge this, but I do understand what she's getting at. It does sometimes feel like men, you know, I might be expected, let's just be honest about it, to fancy somebody of 70 and feel I can't. Okay, well that's fair enough. That's your personal preference. Yeah, absolutely. if I were married to a man of 70 that would be completely different by the way. But you see I don't ascribe to what I'm being accused of because I get really annoyed with you and you know that I do when you and Jane Mulgarrons go off on one of your lascivious

journeys towards the younger man. I genuinely find it really problematic. Well it is and I'm not I don't disagree with you I think it is problematic. It is, and I don't disagree with you, I think it is problematic. I see, it's Tracy, isn't it? I see what Tracy is saying about her very honest admission that she wrestles with some aspects of some men around her and my age. Okay. And I just think, I think if your fantasies are more likely to include the likes of Leo Woodall than Jeremy Clarkson. I mean, let's just be honest, Bea, they are. And so everybody's personal proclivities are their personal proclivities. But you see, I completely agree with you, Tracy. I would describe myself

as an equalist, you know, not a feminist. I don't want women to rule the world. I don't want women to be in charge so they can put men down. You know, that's why I don't like the patriarchy. But I would like a world where everybody was on the same page, to use that phrase twice in a podcast. So I find it, and I catch myself if I, I'm a big fan of Leo Woodle as well, but I, you know, if I ever find myself kind of making one of those, oh, look at him in trunks things. I just don't, I don't like that either. So you're right to pull us up on that. The Northern accents accents when we're

joking about things. I'll try. I'll try very hard. I don't always recognise your accent. Would West Country be alright? I just took it out of the north. Wouldn't that be ok? Well you are, because of your Scottish heritage I think you could perhaps do that. A little bit of dandy. But the problem is it's not terribly easy. No, as you've just illustrated. Leslie says, dear Jane and Fee, I smiled when I listened to it. When you are meant to occasionally smile listening to this, by the way. I smiled when I listened to an episode last week that mentioned being able to spell the word boobs on a calculator and how much fun it used to generate and the thing is kids it really did. Imagine my utter thrill at working out I could actually spell out my name on my Casio in Mr. Henderson's maths class.

How is that possible? Another reason for him to threaten to chuck a board duster at me for not paying attention. I'm in EY rather than IE Leslie but it still makes me smile. Pick a tap she says. Right yes I think it must be it is possible, she's right, to spell the name Leslie IE on a Casio Calculation. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I mean it's not as good as boobs, but it's not bad, not bad at all. Congratulations Leslie. And the thing is, again, just for the younger listeners, back in the day teachers would threaten to throw board dusters.

Oh gosh. And some of them actually threw them. They did, yes. They did, yeah. Now I'm going to a comedy night tonight. Are you? I know, I'm slightly surprised by this. Anyway, I'm going to enjoy it and I'll tell you all about it tomorrow. This is from... Am I in tomorrow? I've already heard by the way that one of our colleagues has booked Thursday off

and it just so happens that the temperature... Because it's sunny. It's soaring and it's going to be like summer briefly in London this Thursday. Anyway she's already booked it off or so she claims. This email is from Julie who finds herself in the Litchfield area. That's very nice. You wouldn't attempt to do that accent, would you? I wouldn't know what it was. It's sort of, oh, it's a good question. It kind of refined Midlands. Oh, it's kind of Warwickshire. That's beyond my repertoire. I don't think it's like this at all really. Repertoire, that's close to abattoir. She enjoyed the, one of many of you by the way, who enjoyed Fee's conversation with Emma Barnett, little known broadcaster. She said, I laughed out loud at Fee's references to wiping.

This is because her granddaughter was born 20 months ago. And actually this is very serious. She says so much of what Emma said rang true. She was born via IVF. My daughter met the criteria for a free NHS round of IVF which included three transfers. The first failed, one fertilised egg remained and the second transfer resulted in a healthy Bonnie, why does no one say that anymore, a baby girl who was over nine pounds. So I think that is Bonnie isn't it? It is. It's a bit light for my use of the word burly the other day in reference to a beaver. I don't think we hear burly enough either. Maternity leave should definitely be called service without any doubt she says. Service to your family, partner, yourself,

your new child. Of course it's not leave that sounds like a sabbatical but I did enjoy a fee in particular referencing wiping. The family came over to stay last weekend and it's so true. referencing wiping. The family came over to stay last weekend and it's so true. The whole time I was just wiping surfaces, face, hands, windows, eye chair, bum, a constant round of wiping with an array of suitable cloths. Last Sunday morning I got up to her sobs at 6 to give my daughter a chance to sleep in. Oh that's, can I just say, if you're going to give your daughter a gift or your daughter-in-law a gift, or your son, or son-in-law, it doesn't get any better than that. Doing the six in the morning, early door shift with a baby. I got up to

her sobs at six, gave my daughter a chance to sleep in, made two breakfasts, watched endless Julia Donaldson stories, played duplo, read and glanced at the clock and it was still only, how long do you think she'd done it for? Oh I think it's probably still only 8.30. It was 9.15 to be fair. Not far off. It's still very very early. Time really does stand still and you do forget when 35 years have passed in your own life but interestingly you always remember she is not your child, she's your grandchild. It's very different and it's a privilege to watch, in my case,

my daughter and my son-in-law become parents. I do try very hard, she says. That's Julie, to stand back. Yes, I think that must be very difficult, knowing when to say something. I mean, if only the mother-in-law would always know when to say something. I mean if only the mother-in-law would always know when to say something. Yes I wonder whether any mother-in-laws have ever got it wrong. No it must be very difficult, I mean it just is very difficult all round isn't it. I think the mother-in-law is particularly difficult because you have a short hand obviously with your own kids and just knowledge that when you say something, you know, wrong and ridiculous, that you'll hopefully be fine within a couple of hours.

But the in-law, I think, is a very, very tricksy path to traipse down. But you sound like a lovely grandparent. I think, you know, quite a few of the emails we've received about Emma Barnett's book have been from older women who are grateful for something finally being said out loud. And I'm sure for every person who's grateful, there's probably a woman who thinks, oh, f. And I really sympathize with that too, because you have been through a similar experience, weren't able to talk about it, had to sit on it, whatever it was. I think hearing younger generations tell their truths can sometimes be quite painful as well.

I think you're right there, I guess. But it's a book that's definitely, definitely gone down well. So congratulations to Emma Barnett for writing that. Shall we turn our attention to... Well, who's the cover star of The Lady? Well, is it Maria Callas or is it just a stock picture of a beautiful woman? Blooming marbles...no, blooming marvels. How spring flowers can improve your health. I love flowers. Maria Callas, the tragic heroine of opera, I think it's Maria Callas.

Maria Callas, yeah. I just wouldn't have been able to place her in a line. Or is it someone who looks like her? Sorry, I'm with you. No, I don't know. It's tricky. Let's go with it's Maria Callas on the front. So the personals always attract our attention. There's a great one here. American lady, well traveled, well educated, well built. But not terribly well bred. Isn't that brilliant? Oh, she actually says this? Yes, yes. Not terribly well bred American female. Oh, I love that. 57 seeks male travelling companion and paramour. Hopefully one and the same. Must be amusing and sufferable. Isn't that great? She sounds a good woman. Really, really

great. Sufferable is one of those... She's definitely looking for a man. Yes, she is. It's a shame. She's a male traveling companion. Look her up. She sounds a lot. But also, you very rarely see sufferable used as a word. It's always insufferable. You don't see the opposite. So, nice to see sufferable. Absolutely wonderful. There is possibly a spelling mistake here. Widow, educated and well travelled. Is this a different one?

Yes. Widow, educated and well travelled, seeks gentlemen with good taste and high standards, must be king and have good sense of humour. I think it's probably kind. Well yes, I mean you're really limiting the possibilities, aren't you? And several kings we know are married. Otherwise, it's just someone who's aiming brilliantly high. And that's also good to hear, by the way.

Isn't it just? Don't underrate yourself. Yeah. And then there's just this really lovely one, it's so specific, it's quite big as well. I tell you what, the lady's spoiling us this month. It's retired presentable widow, wishes to meet sincere professional gentlemen, kind with a good sense of humor, considerate traditional values for social outings. Many varied interests include dancing and music, travel, dogs, country life, antiques, second world politics, church. What, how much? How many interests? No. Not done yet.

National Trust, museums, theatre going, gardening. Where does she sleep? There's more. Conservation and wildlife. I've got to get this out. Rally girl, rally. Think of the mortgage. Other interests. Other interests are planets through time? Fashion, dining out, history, architecture, mainly BBC Two? Useful lessons, badminton, horse riding and golf. Replies and own handwriting, please. I tell you what. That must have cost such a lot to put in as well.

I know. Gosh, I mean, that's a hell of a list. And does it suggest to you that she's been let down by bores in the past? I would imagine so. It is from a woman, isn't it? Yes. And it's someone who just definitely, definitely, definitely doesn't want to meet somebody who's not going to be as curious and invested in the world, all

of life's great pleasures as she is. In the universe. Yep. Yeah. Well, and also, it's quite a good pick and mix, isn't it? Because I think that your hit rate, if you were reading that, would hopefully you'd be able to go, yes, you know, I've got six of those things. We'll have some stuff in common.

It does make you think, is there anything that, I mean, I'm curious about most things. I'm really interested in some things and I'm really, in all honesty, only really bored by motorsport. Do you know what I mean? I think most of us are pretty curious about most stuff, aren't we? Yes, possibly. Those of us who've been lucky enough to get out there a bit. Yeah, but also I do think there's enormous value in listing things that you are genuinely interested in when you're putting yourself out there in the dating arena, because the number of people who just go,

oh I'll have a long country walk on a Sunday, follow my pub lunch. And it's just, A, just everybody is saying that, B, that's just really banal, C, you probably don't, you probably did it once about six years ago, and it was nice. Good point, how many people actually do that? Yeah, they're not doing that. You know, so just be more specific, be really specific.

So if anybody feels that we are slightly taking the piss, we apologize for that. We're absolutely not. It just made us it made us giggle. But as as women who've, you know, been out there in the great big circle of life, I think. I'll just leave it there. in the great big circle of life, I think. Oh, hang on, I've switched myself off. Please. I'll just leave it there. I've switched myself off. Goodbye.

Thanks, Fiona. So, Phyllida Lloyd, she's got the most fantastic CV, the woman who brought the ABBA musical Mamma Mia to the stage, then directed the first Mamma Mia film, then directed Meryl Streep again in The Iron Lady, and turned her attention to another musical phenomenon, Tina Turner. Tina Turner the musical has already been in the West End for six years and its run has just been extended again until late October of this year. Philida, good afternoon, how are you?

Very well thank you. Lovely to meet you. Well it's lovely to have you on. You've met my colleague Fee before. I don't know if you remember this. I. Yes. I remember it very well when Meryl made her an apple pie. Right, yeah. I mean, that's just absolutely lovely for Fee and probably for Meryl, but horrific for me, Philido, because I wasn't there. But we are going to talk about that a little bit later, because I still, I in no way bear a grudge but I do think about it most nights. Right, I know you have met, you met Tina Turner when the idea of the Tina Turner musical was being mooted. What was she like? She was incredible, yes. I was sent to Switzerland to meet her at her house and she said she was quite nervous about doing an interview which sort of surprised me but she'd been not very well just before

and she asked me if I'd help her choose a top and I think that was a surreal moment when I found myself rifling through her wardrobe, looking for a suitable top for the interview. Right. Did you find one? We did, yes. We did. And I gather she really wasn't sure about the idea of the musical. How did you persuade her? Well, I can't lay claim to that. I think it was partly sort of building her trust in Tally Pelham and the producer, but actually she

said that she received still so many letters from people talking about the inspiration she gave them to get up and walk away from an abusive marriage and felt that given that she couldn't go out there and sort of sing for them anymore, that perhaps telling the story would be a legacy of sort of strength of some kind for people. And do you think that is one of the reasons, it's obviously the music and I know there's some great performances as well, is that though, that survival story at the heart of the success of this Tina Turner musical because it's still packing them in. Yeah, I mean it's a night of sort of incredible rock and roll and it is a rip-roaring story of sort of hard-won joy, triumph after unimaginable struggles and of course a lot of people know the

first part of her life, the 16 years with Ike and how she eventually got away from him, but people don't realize the struggle of the next bit of her life when the debts that she was landed with by him, when she failed to ask him for half of his estate and her divorce, she then had to work herself from sort of not just ground zero but minus minus minus to get back on her feet. Yeah and there was an anecdote I think about her being booked for a gig in a relatively obscure part of what was then the Soviet Union and very few people had booked tickets but she still felt this I don't know she was so dedicated she just wanted to do the gig. I mean, it really is an insight into just how tough things were for her. And also, I think that it was about how she really did see

and imagine the audience experience. You know, that story is of being told there are only 44 people have booked and- Oh no, I think Philida might have muted herself, which is really unfortunate. Or she's just lost the connection. Well, hopefully we'll be able to dial back in. But I'll tell you what, I don't think that we should spend

too long of this fascinating interview. Talking about that night when I wasn't there. Oh no, I'm going to bring it up. OK. Actually, why don't you briefly outline what happened that night, what it was all about. So I went to Phyllida Lloyd's house because Meryl Streep and Phyllida Lloyd gave

a very lovely dinner party after a PR showing of The Iron Lady which starred Meryl Streep. As Margaret Thatcher. Yes and instead of doing one of those terrible press junkets, you and I have been to many of those in the past which I think are just really hard work for the star involved. Phyllida Lloyd offered to cook everybody a meal and Meryl Street made an apple pie. So it was extraordinary, it was a really beautiful evening, I really enjoyed meeting them both, it was just an astonishing... it was one of the moments that I will still not believe quite happened when I'm on my deathbed and I toddled home on the number 38 bus because I lived just up the road

and hacked me afterwards and I practically had bruises on my arm because I'd had to pinch myself so often during the evening. Phyllida Lloyd made a cauliflower curry that was memorable and at the time it was quite out there because we're talking at least god 14 years ago 15 years ago. Oh I would have thought so yeah yeah but what was Meryl Streep's pastry like? It was very nice and you know what she was there with her daughter and you can pull the wool over lots of people's eyes, can't you, if you're an A-list celebrity, but you can't pull the wool over your kid's eyes. And the relationship they had together just spoke of a really, really lovely woman. Right. So it was a great evening. And I'm sorry that you weren't there. Well, just I wasn't invited. So, OK, Phyllida Lloyd is back with us. Phyllida, Fee's told the story about going round to your house. We don't have to go there again because honestly, no joke, Phyllida, it still winds Jane up.

She's not even joking about it. Let's park it. So Mamma Mia! The Musical, I mean, it's, people say it's a party. I have to say I'm one of those people, I can almost not listen to slipping through my fingers because it just, I think, I find that the most devastating song about parenthood and it slipped into Mamma Mia and I'm really glad it is but it's quite a moment that song for some reason. What do you think? Yeah I think every mum who either has their daughters left home or they're anticipating that awful moment when they do just begins to start blubbing at that moment. My sister-in in law always says she starts crying at that moment and then cries for the rest of the film.

It's so traditional in the family. Yeah, I mean, I must admit I went to see Mamma Mia on stage when I was six months pregnant and my unborn daughter went berserk during the musical because I think I was bobbing up and down but also also I knew then that it was probably a girl who was going to appreciate ABBA. And she has and does, so that's good. People do say that it must have been a real laugh to film Mamma Mia, which I think was the first film you ever directed.

But actually, I don't think making a film is a barrel of laughs always. It's probably really, really hard work. I think Pierce Brosnan, Colin and Stellan were having a laugh because they didn't have much to do except drink ouzo and kind of go swimming but for the rest of us it was really very hard work in um unimaginable heat and for you know Christine, Julia, Meryl who were well M Merrill wearing a wig running through olive groves at high speed. Yeah, it was, I wouldn't say it was tough but it wasn't really a picnic but we did have a lot

of fun. It was a lot more fun than being at Pinewood where we shot most of the film. Right, the thing about that film, I know people can carp about it, but it's an absolute joybringer. Every time I see it, I enjoy some aspects of it. And that's an amazing thing to have in your kind of CV locker, isn't it? It must be tremendous for you. Yeah, it's really fun hearing the next generation and the next generation get into it. And, you know, tiny children just seem to before they long before they understand the plot that it's about, you know, a woman who slept with three different men.

I don't like to interrogate the plot too much. But it can be enjoyed before you understand really what's going on. And I think that's the beauty of it. And then the fact that it's two generations and a lot of your favorite actors and your favorite songs all coming together. So I feel very lucky to have been part of it.

And yeah, it's a great pleasure to hear. I went to do a talk to the Oxford Film Society and slightly nervous. And at the end, they wanted a Q&A and I expected it was gonna be a lot of films about, questions about obscure European cinema. Anne shot up and said, "'Do you think I'm normal, Miss Lloyd,

that I've watched Mamma Mia every day for the last year?' Wow. I said, absolutely normal, yes, completely. Well, but it's a comfort blanket of a film. And I actually, I get that. Yes, no, it is. I think it's soothing. And I do hear a lot of people say that they put it on when they feel sad.

I mean they put it on when they feel happy but it but it does. Somebody wrote that it should be prescribed on the NHS and I think it could be something to add to the list of alternative prescriptions. Yeah, well it's pretty much prescribed by ITV because I've seen it at least three times over the last couple of years. Apart from Tina Turner the musical, what are you working on at the moment? Working on several things that are a lot less perhaps, well expensive to make and sort of populous. I'm working on a story about the evacuation from Afghanistan in 2021. Gillian Slovo, the writer with whom I did the Grenfell fire project and my partner and I have just helped. We're involved with the play Punch which is at

the Young Vic which we're very proud to have helped bring to London a play about restorative justice. That's James Graham isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Well brilliant. I mean I'm particularly glad that you're involved with something about the evacuation of Afghanistan. That's something we should definitely all revisit. I'm so sorry the technicalities have slightly let us down during the course of the conversation but brilliant to have you on for Lida. Really appreciate it and thank you for all the brilliant stuff you've come up with which has sustained many of us through slightly testing times. Thank you very much, that's Philida Lloyd.

It is an extraordinary CV isn't it because it goes from the spectrum of absolute sing-along joy right through to examining the very darkest moments in humanity. And I think to be able to do both of those things with quite such aplomb is incredible, isn't it? I'm glad she mentioned the plot of Mamma Mia because it's dubious. I remember I took my daughter who was unborn when I first went, I took her again when she was a little bit older, I think she was about eight or nine. She was a bit confused. We had to dance around some of the finer points of what was actually unfolding on stage, but

we liked the music. We absolutely loved the music. And somewhere on BBC4 there'll be a documentary called Mamma Mia! Wear protection. Phyllida Lloyd, I can honestly say, have you seen Mamma Mia? No, but have I ever told you about the dinner party? Right, we're ending the podcast right now. I've heard that story so many times. It's very upsetting. And we might try and shoehorn it in tomorrow.

No, don't worry, we won't. We won't. No, don't worry, we won't. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.