Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Late-in-life moustache experimentation

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

This podcast episode boasts bespoke emails, quality insights (sometimes), high-spec royal musings, excellent conversation links, and editing to a very high standard (not really). Plus, journalist and writer Alison Phillips talks about helping to write 'Remember When', the memoir of her friend and former GMTV presenter Fiona Phillips, who is living with early-onset Alzheimer’s. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_ukiIf you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, if you went back generations, they all had beards, didn't they, for a while? Until Queen Elizabeth, obviously. The mom. Victoria didn't have much of a beard. I think she did. Hey, you're a Canadian podcast listener, and that makes you important to us. We'd like to know more about you, what you think of this podcast, and the other podcasts you'd like to hear.

So we've put together a super brief survey we'd like you to fill out, complete it, and we'll give you a chance to win one of three $100 Amazon gift cards. That way we can say thanks for your opinion. Just go to mypodcastsurvey.ca and have your say. That's mypodcastsurvey.ca. at Dalston Junction this morning. I had my headphones in, I was listening to our very own playlist actually, Jane. There's a lovely Sade track on there, By Your Side, which I'd never heard before. Or I think I'd heard it before, but I didn't kind of hear it a lot, and it's absolutely lovely. Anyway, I was lost in a Sade trance, making my way very slowly down the steps because I'm wearing platforms today and that's a little bit tricky.

I wonder why you were looming over me. You've got a good, that's about a foot. It is isn't it. Anyway I just wanted to say. You're going to get a modeling contract on your way home. Because she was listening to us so she did the thing where she said oh you, you, I'm listening to you. Oh that's when we passed by. Isn't that weird? That's when we pass by. Isn't that weird? It's extraordinary.

She was very lovely and smiley and that's, I hope the rest of your day was very lovely and smiley. I was listening to, I've always liked his voice, Paul Weller. He's got a new album out. Do you like Paul Weller? Oh, I don't think, I think that face indicates that you're a little ambivalent. I really like his voice. Anyway, he's got a new album out and they've only released a few of the tracks, I don't really understand the way it works, but I really do like him. He does go in unexpected directions. Does he? He does. Where is he at the moment?

Where is he? South by South East. Oh yes, I mean my compass isn't what it used to be. But why do you take against him? I didn't know this was a chink in your musical armour. No, I don't take against him at all and I think the Star Council was great actually. Really, really loved the Star Council. Okay, I'm going to say something that's just so pathetic. But his hair changed. Oh, his hair! Sorry, it gives me the itch. I knew you were going to say that for some reason.

All right. You mean because he's got like a curtain of hair. Oh, so he's just got this weird kind of loo brush at the top and then great big kind of curtains down the side. And quite often you'll go to, I'm going to say, you'll go to a pub in Blackheath and you'll see a certain type of middle-aged man who's still sporting a Weller who thinks they can be Paul Weller when they're not. Absolutely and they're all quoting their, you know. Yeah but I think sometimes with men of that age they're so thrilled to have hair. Their album track knowledge. That they just want to let it all flap about.

Yeah I guess. I don't know. But yes, I obviously, Jane, admire Paul Weller's enormous contribution to the musical canon. She admires his output. Actually, we were talking about her and I've got a clipping. Brought a clipping into the podcast studio. Yes. And this just made me laugh first thing this morning. It's a world of turmoil. I mean, just things just get crazy or wherever you look. Let's not talk about you know who but honestly, can it get any worse? But this just really made me laugh this morning headline in the Times. The paper of record isn't it the Times? King's new range of botanical beard oils. The King has released his own range of beard grooming products. I didn't

know this was coming and I'm so proud to be British. The set of balms, oils and washes has been crafted, 21st century word, with a midge repellent plant. What? A midge repellent plant found on the Balmoral estate. The range is made with bog myrtle. The range is made from bog myrtle, foraged. I mean that's another 21st century. This is ticking so many boxes. Foraged from the 50,000 acre Aberdeenshire estate. Also included in the range are organic body washes and it's been made in collaboration with a local beard care firm called Hairy Highlander. Hairy Highlander. Hairy Highlander. Alright so the King's done that. This is the King. So that's Clean Shave and Charles. Yes. So he's just completely the wrong royal in the wrong generation.

I mean, if you went back generations, they all had beards, didn't they, for a while? Oh, yeah. Until Queen Elizabeth, obviously. The mom. Queen Victoria didn't have much of a beard. I think she did. She probably in later life experimented with a tash, but I don't think she was full bearded. I think they sort of dropped the beards when it was a little bit too Germanic. Well no that's what I mean.

That wasn't popular was it? When you conjure up the image of previous kings and they're all bearded mobs aren't they? And obviously the next king is going to be bearded because William is sporting quite a kind of facial hair arrangement at the moment. I'll call that a beard? So no, it disappeared. Is it? Yeah, I think so. I'll just end with, Balmoral Castle, said the bog myrtle,

had long been valued in Highland tradition as part of skin-soothing botanical care, especially in harsh weather-exposed conditions. So we're going to Scotland, of course, very, very soon. We better get ourselves a bottle. And I hope to have a full beard by the time we get there on the 7th, 8th of August. It is. I just think that's brilliant. I mean say what you like about whether or not you should have a monarchy but I tell you what when they bring us joy like that keep it going that's what I say. Now this reminded me of, do you remember before you went away on holiday we were talking about overly florid prose in estate agent speak?

Oh yes. And a couple of our listeners have picked up on this too and it is the overuse of adjectives that is just ridonkulous. I found a couple of examples for you, are you ready? Yes. This striking three-bedroom house in Hither Green, South East London has been recently completed with a distinctive and thoughtful design. Its prismatic form successfully creates a series of bright and dynamic spaces through dramatic glazing, unexpected volumes and several interactions between its mid-century inspired interior and its

various outside areas. Sounds like it's all over the place. Yeah, Weardale Road is close to Manor Park and Blackheath, it's a 12 minute walk from Hither Green. But all of that is just pathetic isn't it? And then there was another one where I counted, so there's just two paragraphs describing a four-bedroom terraced house and in the two paragraphs there are 27 adjectives. Every single noun has got ridiculous things in front of it. So it boasts a delightful landscape garden, enviably situated off the edge of Finsbury Park moments from fashionable amenities and excellent transport links. The property has been superbly maintained and

appointed by the current owners as opposed to someone who just walked in off the street. Offering luxury accommodation over three floors, finished to a very high standard with elegant interiors and enormous character appeal throughout. Features include three beautiful reception areas, one with access to the garden, high-spec kitchen designer, high-spec quality floor coverings, ornate detailing and gas central heating. So it goes on. Well I mean one woman's fashionable amenity is somebody else's very noisy pub. Oh it is, yeah. But it's all the stupid thing where everything comprises. When do you ever use the everything comprises an entrance. When do you ever use the word comprises?

Well, they still use it about the railway. Comprised of eight carriages. Why? Comprised of eight carriages, you're right. We've just got eight carriages. I know the buffet isn't open. I mean, that use of language or overuse of silly terms is preposterous and ongoing, I'm going to say.

The second floor and then I'll shut out, the second floor is spanned by a luxurious principal bedroom suite. Spanned? It's spanned. So all there is on the second floor is one bedroom? No it's got an impressive bathroom with free standing. Free standing! Right, what's the alternative? Oh it would be into the wall. Boxed in. Yeah. I don't know. I'm

going to rewrite one of these using the opposite adjective for every single positive adjective that they've tried to use. Well, that takes us back to what our dear Prime Minister was saying yesterday. He was being questioned by some other politicians at parliament on the kind of last day of the parliamentary term. And I mean Sir Keir Starmer, he is a bit of a... Well, he's widely regarded as something of a dullard when it comes to public speaking, let's just be honest. And what was it he said he wished for the British people that they... Oh, well, the breaking news, the headline was that he wished for the British people to be safe and secure.

Yeah, you're right. Well, it's something, isn't it and secure. Yeah, you're right. Well, it's something, isn't it? It is something, you're right. Right, Katz says, describes herself as a long-time listener, a first-time podcaster. There's no jingle for that, don't worry. Sending you much love from sunny Scotland, where we spent a week in the Outer Hebrides. Perhaps you could have done with some of that beard oil,

who knows? We went there to lose reception and gain perspective, followed by a couple of days on Sky. Luckily, our digital detox week coincided with off-air being completely off-air, so we didn't miss out on much. Back to boring Switzerland and the grindstone soon, says Katz. Well, thank you very much for the card. I think that's beautiful. Is that Tobermory? On the Isle of Mull? It looks like it but it

doesn't sound as though they've been to the Isle of Mull. It looks like Tobe Mawry because it's got the beautiful different coloured houses hasn't it? Which we all recognise from our early years childcare. Oh yes please don't mention the name of that program. It did wind me up. And Sue is in Taunton, lots of love to you Sue. She says, I'm away on my first solo holiday since my husband's death five years ago, and it's been brilliant. I've met so many lovely people. My kids encouraged me, so thanks to them. And thanks to you for keeping me company on many a sleepless night and Sue is normally in Taunton but had taken herself off to Spain to a place called I think it's it, Mias?

Let's go Mias. Mias. Looks absolutely beautiful and Sue I'm glad the holiday went well and yeah you're absolutely right shout out to your children for encouraging you to get out there and go and do it. I hope you had a good time. All our best. Jan thank you very much. You sent a beautiful picture of a swimming pool on the banks of a lake in Vancouver. And in fact, thank you to everybody who sent in a kind of summer theme of swimming and stuff and particularly, and I'll find the relevant postcard tomorrow, our lovely listener who suggested a current exhibition on at

the Design Museum all about swimming and Lidos and stuff like that, which I've brought in my diary. It might be the same weekend as visiting the Festival of Quilts. I tell you what, you are such a culture vulture. Culture just isn't safe when you're around. Oh don't be ridiculous. But I am gonna really try and make it on Friday to the Festival of Quilts at the NEC and you're still very welcome to join if you want to. Because this is courtesy of one of our listeners. No I know, I know. And I'm a huge fan of craft. Just not Birmingham.

Okay, well, Birmingham so many times in my life. I so wish it well. Okay. This is a very thoughtful email about being taken over by AI. I was just listening to your podcast and I heard the email from the woman in Scotland who's worried about her role being taken over by artificial intelligence. As someone who's worked in the probation service for over 20 years, I wanted to offer a hopeful alternative. While I appreciate that Scotland operates under a different legal system in most parts of England there are excellent opportunities available both for administrative staff and for those interested in frontline roles such as PSOs, Probation Service Officers who are unqualified probation officers. For those seeking progression,

the professional qualification in probation provides a fantastic route. It's open to both internal and external candidates and allows individuals to earn a salary whilst training. The work is incredibly varied and meaningful. Probation officers operate in the community, in prisons and in courts. We supervise unpaid work through community payback, deliver accredited programs and behavioral interventions and support victims through dedicated schemes. It's a role that offers purpose, challenge and real impact and AI won't be replacing that any time soon. So thank you very much indeed to our listener. Who would prefer to remain anonymous?

And I can see that you've also got the other email, which I meant to bring in for some stupid reason didn't, from somebody else who's just at that kind of what am I going to do with my life stage of life. Is that Facing the AI Leap in your 50s from Lee? Yeah. Okay. Longtime listener, second time emailer, stand down, young Eve. And once proud readouter during the Mark Cavendish interview a highlight for the cycling

obsessive. I've since caught up with my two and a half year backlog after missing your leap to times radio. God almighty. Please, please. It's all right. It's because he's on long haul flights from Melbourne to London. So you might as well because then you can drift in and out. You know, So you might as well, because then you can drift in and out. We don't pose a huge kind of... We're not a lump in your concentration, are we? We just cruise on through. I was struck by the listener in her 40s and 50s worrying about work rent and staying afloat while her situation isn't identical to mine.

The struggle finding work in your late 50s, being single and watching UK friends disappear into family bubbles hit home as a beta male in my late 50s being single and watching UK friends disappear into family bubbles hit home as a beta male in my late 50s. Can we just stop and do a round of applause? Thank you. To all we celebrate, we celebrate the beta male on this podcast. A freelance graphic designer in publishing for over 30 years with no assets, never married, no kids. The odd one out amongst my UK friends, except for one lovely podcast resistant friend who was very Jane-esque at times. I keep trying when back in London in three weeks for a visit.

Family-wise, anyway, Lee continues, it's just my mum, my dad died suddenly last year. In Melbourne, my friends are predominantly gay, partnered or parenting, while I drift between erratic freelance work and a knack for being happily solitary or socially lazy. I too often wonder where it's all going, where it all went, or is it the other way round. Yet despite being long-term single, not having much in life other than my mother and close friends, I feel oddly

unburdened at the moment by the dramas of my married empty nesters or divorced friends and carers, or maybe I'm just dodging them. I'll let the hive decide. I hope this brings your emailer a little comfort. There are others out there and here still struggling, still showing up and still surviving. I'm sorry if it was a bit rambling and self-consumed. Warmest regards from a currently showery Melbourne loyal listener during work, walks, runs, rides and general ear-based companionship. Nothing rambling or self-consumed about that email at all and just really good to point it out because I think you're right that people in your part of the demographic are often, I don't know, slightly kind of looked past because maybe other people's

lives do seem to have more drama going on. But you've been through it a little bit yourself. I mean, your dad dying suddenly last year, you know, that's going to be dramatic and not in a good way. And I think you're very thoughtful to want to point out that actually, you know, your life is a valuable life. And life doesn't have to have all these kind of, you know, fireworks and stuff going off in it. I think there's a very attractive self-awareness about that email, actually. So Lee, don't be hard on yourself. But I do hope, in the spirit of Lee's email, that that has brought some comfort to our original emailer. I think, you know, I think there are all sorts of funny times in your life, aren't there?

That certainly your early 40s can be, I think your early 20s can be when you come out of formal education, you don't really know what you're going to do or everybody feels, it might feel to you like everybody else has got it sorted and you're the only one who hasn't. And I think there's a similar period in midlife, late midlife as well, when you think what now? Yeah. And you know, sometimes it can look a rather depressing image when you get to my kind of vintage. Oh good god, here we go. I don't let it.

Here we go. I don't let it. Here we go. I was telling Fee in the spirit of the podcast, I'll be honest with everybody else as well, that I experimented with coming off HRT. The experiment is now over. Thank God. If you hadn't decided to go back on it, I just would have found a discreet way to slap a patch on you when you weren't looking.

I would be very genuinely interested in hearing from people who've done the same thing. I'm getting hot now because I've just gone back on it. But did your symptoms come back very suddenly? Well, no, not really. No, because I was, this is very boring. But also, I mean, I'm genuinely interested in what other people have done about this. I don't think it's boring at all, Jane. Well, it's one of those things because you do think, well, can I really be on this for the rest of my life?

And I happen to be on quite a low dose of it. I wouldn't say I'd sailed through the menopause, but it hadn't, thanks to HLT, it hadn't been that bad. I have discovered over the last couple of weeks that I, while I'm working, I've come to the decision that I need to stay on it. So I mean, tell other people, get involved, tell me what you've done, tell us what you've done. Because there's no, you and I were talking about this the other day, there's no really clear advice, is there? It seems to be, and we're obviously opening ourselves up to all sorts of medical people getting involved and saying, well actually there is very clear advice. Actually I don't think there is. You and I do try to inform ourselves and we're not really clear whether we should stay on it or how we could come off it. Am I right? I think you're entirely right and I feel

very much that you and I are a frontier generation working out whether or not we should stay on HRT for the rest of our lives, having grown up in a time when we were definitely, I remember when I was first prescribed it, the doctor saying take the lowest possible dose for the shortest amount of time and thinking oh okay well that sounds right because this is you know a powerful combination of hormones that I'm placing back into my body so I don't want to go you know I don't want to be on this stuff forever but then within five years that advice seemed to have changed to why don't you up your dose because your

natural levels of hormones will be thoroughly depleted by now. So you should be taking more of HRT in order to kind of get back to the place that you were before the menopause, which is just completely the opposite suggestion. So I feel as confused as you and I, we won't surely, surely, we will not know whether or not women who need it should stay on HRT for the whole of their lives until our generation has done that and seen whether or not there are any severe side effects or, you know, God forbid, life limiting conditions that come from having done that. So, no, I'm bewildered. Bewildered, yeah.

There's also a conversation, isn't there, as well, at the moment about antidepressants, and when you come off them, if you are encouraged to do it, or if you feel the time is right, or someone tells you that you should, that can be really difficult too for people. So, anyway, it's a conversation that we certainly don't have, or we can have the conversation, but we're very much not experts. We're just living through it. But also I'd be very interested in hearing from some of our older listeners who have come off HRT as to whether or not there is a kind of rebalancing that you feel has then happened

quite naturally in your life. Because although I really, really welcome the difference that HRT has made to me, I do hope that there's a me further down the line that isn't this. Because I know that this is me trying to feel like I did 10 years ago. And there's quite a bit of me that kind of thinks, no, I'm getting old.

So. Oh, darling. No, so, but do you know what I mean? You kind of think well it's just unrealistic to want to feel like I'm 45 for the rest of my life in all other areas of my life I am not doing that. No I think what you say is really interesting so let's just we'll open it up as so many of our great emailers they come to us with issues and say come other people let us know they think. So that's what we're doing now because we don't really understand this. But we are living amongst it. Does any of you see this? This is because I'm only

just back on the HRT. I'm just not making much sense. Can I just put one kind of coda into that as well? We have the advantage of being able to take HRT and men... Yeah, not everyone can. Yeah, I mean, if you've had breast cancer, then you're excluded from it too, so... Well, you're excluded from it, even that isn't that clear. No, but I'd be interested to know how you feel your hormones are settling and balancing, or whether there is a feeling that that will just never happen for you.

So yeah, there is lots to talk about. And obviously people who've gone through a very early menopause, I think might have something to inform us who've gone through menopause at a later, more kind of, I don't want to say normal, because that's a difficult, pejorative thing to say, but you know what I mean? At the kind of, you know, 50-year-old stage of life. OK, well, let us know know there will be people out there

incredibly who know more than either of us I find. I mean if you do and you email us obviously keep it brief. No don't don't don't don't at all but help. I should be back to my HRT itself in a couple of weeks time, let's hope. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. We've both been watching Karen Pirie, haven't we? Oh yes. Now, this is, it's Val McDermid isn't it? Yes.

Yeah. And I, it's the character of Karen Pirie is a detective, of course she is, but she, I'm very intrigued by her little money belt. She's permanently sporting a fanny pack. What is that about? I like her, I think particularly because she's not very tall. Oh my goodness. She's not very tall and she's a detective with a money bag. Money belt.

Money belt, you're absolutely right. So there's a scene in episode 2. Did you do episode 2 last night? I don't know, my telly just went off so I'm not sure which episode I was on. Oh, okay. I'm sorry to hear that. Well, there is a scene where she opens the door to her boyfriend of an evening. She's at home and she's still wearing the money belt. And you're right, what's in that? She got in there. What is in that? Come on Val, tell us. So I think it's fantastic, we've been hugely hugely enjoying it, but it is one of those series that has flashbacks to the 1980s but is set in the current day. So they're using a younger set of actors and then they're using older actors and I cannot

keep up. No, it's a bold concept that doesn't always work, does it? No, especially when one of them appears to have completely and utterly lost his Scottish accent. It happens. I mean, maybe not applying enough of the beard oil from the bog myrtle on the Balmoral 50,000 acre estate. We kept on having to stop and just... Who's that? Who? Which one? I mean, you'd really, really want to write a little kind of do a little diagram to help you through. There's no confusing Karen for

anybody else because she's the one with the, you call it a fanny pack. I've spent time in the Americas. Yeah tell me about it. Well you have. But look this is another one about our terrible geography. Okay this is my terrible geography. So I'm owning this Wendy Here's a little French geography correction for you. I'd hate you to give your dedicated listeners false information. Well Got a job on hand there Wendy Cap for rat in its correct long form is Saint-Jean cap for rat. This is where you went on yours No, this is the place I didn't go. Oh, I see, sorry. So this is the place that is draped in this hurley. It's a very beautiful peninsula close to Nice on the right, if you're looking at a map.

Cap-Dontibe, which is home to the hotel Eden Rock, is another beautiful peninsula close to Ontibe on the left of Nice. And Cap-Ferrat, it's not how we pronounce it but for ease, Cap Ferret is where Fee spent her holiday close to Bordeaux. It's lovely as well though, isn't it? It's very lovely indeed but the difference between Cap Ferret and Cap Ferrat is about £10,000 per person on holiday. So I didn't want to give people the impression that we've gone to one of the world's most expensive holiday destinations

Where we've been fighting over Lamborghini's Europe car when we arrived That didn't happen. No, you're very much Toyota Yaris territory on you now What to do with your arms when you're asleep has brilliant when you're asleep has brought in some extraordinary responses and I think the award for best title of an email will have to go to Juliet with the long arm of the night. I mean that's you know we do have some very funny listeners. I'm a long-term listener through your myriad serious and not so serious discussions and interviews but it's taken the weighty question of what to do with your arms at night that has prompted my first time email. She hasn't got it open.

Thank you Eve. Right Juliet says all I can say... Did you just snort? It's just unbelievable. Right Juliet says all I can say is, be careful, I've been a side sleeper for many years, I would fold my arm upwards so my hand was alongside my head which sometimes rested upon said upper arm yeah that's what I do yeah right unfortunately I am also able to adopt this position in my sleep so last year I awoke one night to find myself thus but in great pain and the arm numbed by pins and needles that's your supportive and sympathetic face yeah can can happen. Right. They went. Unfortunately the pain didn't. A doctor eventually diagnosed a rotator cuff

injury or shoulder impingement which needed physio and is still not fully healed today. Probably not helped by my body's insistence on continuing to arrange my arm inappropriately while I slumber on. I continue to do my physio, things are improving gradually. Who knew a good night's sleep could be so armful? Juliet attempting ill-advisedly in my view a little bit of humour there towards the end. I rather liked it. Oh, I've hurried, Mel. Okay, so that is something to be concerned about, isn't it? You've had a frozen shoulder, haven't you? Yes, well, when I read that email,

I did think maybe it was partly due to sleeping like that for years and years and years. So my right shoulder, I can't do front crawl anymore, at all, because it's just not, the movement just isn't there since the freezing of the shoulders. That's the one where your arm rolls over like that. It is. So it's breaststroke that I would do. Yep. If I ever entered a swimming pool. Like a frog. Yes. So got lots to think about with the arm. Have you also got the arm rest one? This well this is from a lady who's a university lecturer in biological sciences in Canada.

Oooooh. So I think we're going to trust her. It's Kathleen who says, I find as an older person that the weird positions I used to sleep in just don't work anymore. Like Fee, I prefer to sleep on my front. My mother told me that I did this as a baby and it actually really scared her because she'd find me face down in the crib. She'd prop me up with pillows to try to keep me on my

back or side but when she checked on me later there I was face down. Health and safety of course you should never put a pillow in with a baby should you? Nope. No. It's the most comfortable position for me though but lately I find my neck aches if I sleep that way. I have been trying a side front posture with one leg up to the side like a half frog pose in yoga and a pillow under me and I'm turned about 45 degrees from being flat on my front. Sounds strange I'm not flat on my front which also affects the front sleeping. Eh? When I try to sleep on my back my thunderous snoring wakes me up with dreams of earthquakes preceding the waking.

On my side, whichever side I'm on, the lower arm falls asleep or starts to ache." I mean, Kathleen's really, she's going into the outer reaches of the known sleeping universe here. She says, I have six pillows that I rearrange into various positions to try to prevent this. I mean, it must take her about an hour and a half to settle down in bed every night. So far, on the side with the lower arm pointing ahead, a very soft pillow on top of the arm and then the upper arm wrapped around it like hugging the pillow seems to work. God, I thought Karen Perry was going to say that.

I think you need at least a degree in physics here to spend the night with Kathleen. But anyway, right. Well that's the solution, isn't it? Just get a person. Arrange them into a suitable position and fall asleep on them. Kathleen says, every night is a new experiment. Right, OK. It's just incredible and briefly Claire says I noticed it a while back not knowing what to do with my arms on my side in bed and also being baffled as I never used to give it a moment's thought this is what

you said yesterday. Is it below the age of 30 or is it before you have children or what is it that you just get into bed? And you fall asleep. And that's it! There's no further, there's no more to that anecdote. Yes, I'm really relieved when I mentioned this arm confusion to a friend a bit older than me, says Claire. She said the same thing had happened to her. It's such a weird phenomenon. I'd love to hear from experts though genuinely I'm not sure which experts they'd be. Right, Claire, thank you. Are you one of the muddled masses who no longer knows what to do

with their arms when you go to bed at night? Please join in. Okay, final one on the subject comes in from Annie who says I had no intention of emailing again so soon But after hearing about Allison's arm in bed dilemma, I felt compelled just this morning I was lying in bed on my right side when it occurred to me I had no idea what to do with my left arm. You see we're giving people problems now There are lots of people who were sleeping absolutely fine until yesterday and then last night they got into bed and suddenly There's another problem on the list. Back with Annie, thinking laterally I found an extra use for the memory foam rest I use

when watching TV in bed on my tablet. Turned it upside down, it doubles up beautifully as an arm rest, see photo? And it certainly does. But you can't spend all night with your with your arm up on a arm rest can you? Although when I had a bit of a frozen shoulder thing that's what I had to do. Oh yes. Ben you do sleep like that don't you? But yes but but I don't think it is it is it advisable if you don't have an injury to start doing that might you not give yourself an injury? Gosh, what a world.

I know. But you know what we always say about memory foam? Be very careful. Could be a bad memory. It's a good line that. It's always worth repeating. Catherine says, oh, the subject here is excitement of the penalties. Please God, may there not be a penalty shootout tonight because no one's gonna be able to take it this is the euros England are through to the semifinal they play Italy tonight and well we're not gonna go to what let's do a mystic well gone just for fun you see the thing is I think they should win they should win I think it's gonna be two nil to England sticking with it, I wish I hadn't said that. Catherine says, when I was watching the penalties in the Sweden game, my Apple Watch thought

I'd had a fall and it wanted to phone for an ambulance when that poor Swedish player missed the final penalty. It's awful isn't it? I think she was only 19. It's a horrendous way to go out of the tournament. It's terrible. She's regularly seen is our correspondent Catherine in Sauston in Cambridge with her tote bag while she shops with her grandson. Well done you. Keep up the good work. That duty is finishing though in September she says as he goes to school. Well he'll have a great

time but I imagine you'll miss some of the time you spent with him but I get you'll be able to go and pick him up. I always think that's possibly a lovely thing to do. I still think back to picking them up from school. You know, that long walk home, well, in my case, five minute walk home. And they only think they tell you what they'd had for lunch. And then they'd ask what was for tea. And then you were home. Okay, happy memories. Hey, you're a Canadian podcast listener and that makes you important to us. We'd like to know more about you, what you think of this podcast and the other podcasts you'd like to hear. So we put together a super brief survey we'd like you to fill out, complete it, and we'll

give you a chance to win one of three $100 Amazon gift cards. That way we can say thanks for your opinion. Just go to mypodcastsurvey.ca and have your say. That's mypodcastsurvey.ca. Right. Our guest today is Alison Phillips, who was once the editor of The Daily Mirror, where Fiona Phillips, who is not related to you, we need to get this clear, was a columnist for many many years and so you are a friend of Fiona's, a long-time friend. Yes I've known Fiona probably 20 years and she's just the most fun vivacious woman that you could care to know. Well Fiona's book is out now it's called

Remember When? My Life with Alzheimer's and I think she'd hosted Breakfast Television for well over a decade hadn't she on ITV? She had so she was there every morning on the GMTV sofa and I think that's why there's such incredible fondness for her because there's so many people that woke up with Fiona for all those years. She was there with Eamonn Holmes and then after he left she was there with Ben Shepard and then she did Strictly Come Dancing so she was a very much a household name. Oh she absolutely was, she was part of as you say part of people's morning routine. So I had known because not least actually because she'd made some really powerful television documentaries about it that both her parents had had Alzheimer's disease and

she herself was diagnosed with it in 2022. Yes, so no sorry 2023. So it's coming up for two years. So that is the particularly sad bit about it is because I can remember talking to Fiona about her parents, and she carried this enormous sort of responsibility for caring for her parents. And as I think so many women and people would do for their parents,

but for her, it was something almost beyond that. She was living in London, she had two young children, and she would be working all week, and then at the London, she had two young children and she was she would be working all week and then at the weekends she would drive all the way down to Wales to care for her parents and she really keenly felt the loss of her mother as her mother sort of slipped away from her and then she really felt this terrible guilt when her mother had to go into a care home in her final years and then she literally just sort of buried her mother and then it became apparent that her father also had Alzheimer's and I think probably he'd had quite a lot of symptoms but they'd been masked by everything else that was going on.

So she, perhaps more than anybody, knew exactly what it was going to be like when she herself got the diagnosis. I think this book is really interesting because you have worked alongside Fiona to tell her life story and to tell her experience of Alzheimer's whether as a carer or now as somebody with it but also her husband has written chunks of the book as well. Now he's a formidable television executive, a man called Martin Frisell, people will know him, quite formidable and he really lays it on the line about what it's like to be a carer. I think it's one of the most clear cited illustrations of just how tough that can be actually.

Yes, I mean Martin in particular was very keen not to sugarcoat anything. Well he hasn't. He hasn't and he says it's brutal, which it is. I mean he was the editor of This Morning up until last year, and he just felt that it was no longer sustainable sort of having that full-on job and trying to care for his wife. But Fiona too, because at the beginning of the book, she was able to contribute quite a lot about how she was feeling. Tell me how that worked.

So I would go and see her, spend time with her, and we would sort of map out what she wanted to tell him. And interestingly, of course, she had quite clear memories about her earlier life, and particularly about the caring for her parents. It's almost like that period was really seed in her mind. But then as time went on, it became more difficult for her. And the bit that she found hardest was talking about what had happened most recently. So when it actually got to the bit about,

tell us about the diagnosis, tell me about the day that you were sat there when you were told this was happening. She really struggled often to remember those parts. But we didn't want to kind of pretend that she was able to write a 90,000 word book all on her own, because that would be disingenuous. And we didn't want other people

who had got Alzheimer's to think, goodness, why can't I do something like that? And she can. So we had to sort of through the course of the book show that she was losing the ability to sort of reflect backwards and look forwards. Because that's, I think, the thing with Alzheimer's, isn't it?

They can live in the moment. They can talk to you in the moment about, this is a nice cup of tea, or isn't the weather nice today? But they can't look back or look forwards. How do you know, you and her husband Martin, know that she is still happy for the more deteriorating elements of her life and as Jane says the very brutal effect of it on her family, how do you know that she's okay with that being there? So we did talk about that sort of when she was less poorly and she at that point was very keen that the reality of Alzheimer's should be there because the thing that she said she felt both as

when she'd been caring for her parents and when she had it herself, was how incredibly lonely Alzheimer's can be. There is a real sense of being alone and the rest of the world goes about its business and you're just left. And so her hope for the book was that it would make people feel less alone and that so she wanted it told. So obviously there were some things

that we haven't put in the book because for her own sort of privacy and dignity We haven't put everything in there And I think she also wanted the book to serve as a reminder to the person that she was before this happened to her She says that she doesn't want to be defined by Alzheimer's But at the same time she wants to be brutally honest about what it's like. She had made these really important television programs about Alzheimer's she'd also worked for the charity as well hadn't she? I think she'd been their

official spokesperson. Yeah she was sort of an ambassador for them for a long time and she put so much effort. I mean that's what's the sort of terrible irony of all this is that she did all this work to help people with Alzheimer's and to raise awareness of Alzheimer's. And then it came for us. So I remember talking to her very soon after her father died. So that was 2012. And she said to me, the clock is ticking.

I know it's coming for me. And because when somebody says something to you like that, you go, don't be silly. It'd be fine. It'd be fine. It'd be fine. And of course, it was coming for me. And of course when somebody says something to you like that you go, don't be silly, it'll be fine, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. And of course it was coming for her. Well can we just talk about this because I do think this is really important. If both your parents have Alzheimer's and that's not dementia, it's a specific diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease, does it mean that you are bound to get it? So I've spoken to the consultant who has cared for Fiona and she tells me that

Fiona does not carry a gene so she was this is not she has not genetically got it right but she had what they call a predisposition to it which means there are some people who have got an increased chance of getting it just as there are other things that you can do in your life around just general health that might mean you're more predisposed to it. So I think the closest we could get to Eileen this out, because I just it just seems strange doesn't it, the closest we could get to it is the thing she probably had a higher chance of getting it but there is nothing in her genetic code which said she was definitely going to get it.

I've said this book is very honest it's actually really notably honest about her parents and their marriage which was not an easy one and to be blunt about it her dad sounds incredibly hard work he was not a happy man her mother wasn't happy either although I think that was partly because her father was so challenging. I think so and he clearly had a huge influence over her as well in that you feel that she really worked so hard because she was trying to meet his expectations and I think he'd had a, he was perhaps one of those men that felt that he'd sort of been a victim of life disappointments over the years. Well there are a lot of people and sometimes they're right.

Yeah they are. Yeah. And so I think she absorbed that and I think perhaps as an eldest child as well, I don't know, she was constantly trying to make things right for her family and constantly being the child who excelled and made everything right. And of course, when Alzheimer's came along, she couldn't make it right.

You can't make that right. And I think she punished herself trying to look after them and wasn't able to do that. And I think, but it's interesting the thing about the marriage because you wonder how much of the difficulties in her parents marriage was about her mother's early onset Alzheimer's. And then also in the book, Martin speaks very honestly about the stresses that were in their own marriage, because again, he wasn't aware that some of her behaviours were caused perhaps by the beginning of Alzheimer's. Yes, I mean it is quite a complex tale. I should say her mum had had a very tough time

as a child. She'd been the victim of a really, I mean there's no such thing as a pleasant but an unpleasant sexual assault. And it sounds to me, and I'm a cod psychologist I suppose, that she'd never entirely recovered from that. And why would you, by the way? No, I don't think she had, and I think she suffered from depression, which was probably undiagnosed at the time in sort of the 60s and 70s. And I think there's another interesting thing here about sort of depression and Alzheimer's as well in that, because depression can be a symptom in the early stages of somebody that's got Alzheimer's, and you kind of almost wonder where does the depression end in the early stages of somebody that's got Alzheimer's.

And you kind of almost wonder where does the depression end and the Alzheimer's begin? And then another aspect of this, and again, this is more called psychology, but her dad worked very hard, but he mended television. So that's what he did. Fiona Phillips ended up as a very successful, no doubt very well rewarded and she should have been television presenter. And you wonder what the dynamic there was between father and daughter and as you say that eldest child desperate to achieve. I think so and you got the impression that Fiona perhaps didn't feel that her father was as proud of her as she would have wanted him to be. I think she got that

affirmation from the mother but perhaps not from her father. Not from him. And he, again, it's in the book and it is disturbing. The father did attack her mom when she was unwell. He did, although Fiona, interestingly, later thought was that because he too was in the early stages about Simon was behaving irrationally. But then again, I think she would also say that it's so hard caring for somebody. And although we might all wish that we had endless patience,

I think it's possibly only when you find yourself in that situation, you know what you can actually cope with. Yeah, I did find that upsetting, I must say. What do you think the likelihood is that we can remember Fiona's huge career and success now that she does have this illness? Because I think it's such a valid point to make. We are all with her on that, that we need to keep in our minds. This amazing woman who sat on the sofa and turned her hand to the plot of Emmerdale and then interviewing Gordon Brown. She was offered a peerage by Gordon Brown.

And I remember interviewing her when she left the sofa and she said, I'm so fed up of being offered. She called them tasting vegetable shows. I've been a journalist for years. How do we do that, Alison? Because it's important, isn't it? It's really important. I think Fiona and Martin have made a decision. They don't want

to sort of keep getting wheeled out to talk about this. I mean they know it's a big issue and that there's huge interest from people across the country because so many people are having to deal with it in their families. But I think they too really do want their privacy. They've done this book and I think that will be it. Because I think then if people don't see Fiona, I think out and about, I think then that will hopefully will mean that she can remain that journalist who was able to do those incredible, you know, she worked out in LA for years. She did all sorts of things and she took a big step backwards from even before the diagnosis because one of the things that she was so conscious about was she didn't want people to think she wasn't her old self, which is in a way it feels a bit of a shame because she sort of

hidden herself from view, but she valued her privacy. Yeah, but television, live television, especially breakfast television, is gonna take a toll on anybody. I don't blame any woman or man for deciding after doing it for quite some time that you just can't do it anymore. She stopped doing GMTV in 2018, didn't she? And maybe that was a positive move on her part.

Yeah, so it was actually before that that she'd given up, it was before that, but she still carried on doing television. I sometimes wonder when I'm talking to her, if sort of like the work you do in radio or on television and you've perhaps got somebody talking in one ear, you're trying to read a brief over here, the next guest hasn't turned up, there's all this sort of chaos unfolding. I wonder if that has almost equipped Fiona for the situation she's in now because she is amazing when you see her with people. It's all right, all this stuff's going on, but she can still make the person who she's with feel that she is with them and she's engaged with what they're saying, even though perhaps behind all that she's not entirely certain what's happening. I think she's very good at fooling people as to what is really going on.

So we've talked about the fact that she thought she was unwell but was blaming a variety of other things and this is what interests me. How do you know? You've talked about depression possibly being an indicator that you might, and it's really important to emphasise the might here, you might be on the cusp of developing Alzheimer's disease. But what else was happening to her that worried her or worried those around her? So I think connected to the depression was a real sense of anxiety. So she had gone from somebody who was traveling around the world, doing all these interviews, to someone who she'd get into the supermarket, I remember she once said

to me, or she'd been to me or she into the supermarket and she was putting some things in her basket and then she was just overwhelmed by this sense of anxiety that she just couldn't she couldn't do it. And she had to run out and go and sit in the car. And so really for her, I think we all imagine out times as people forgetting things, don't we? Because that's sort of the concept. And obviously it does get to that point.

But quite frequently, those early stages are around anxiety because the person doesn't feel completely in control of what's about to happen because they can't they just they're in this deep fog. And I remember her saying to me something. It was like you've you've lost something and you're looking for everywhere and you go into all these different rooms and you think, I'm just about to find something, it was like you've lost something and you're looking for it everywhere and you go into all these different rooms and you think, oh, I'm just about to find it, I'm just about to find it.

No, can't find it, it's gone. And it's that sense of, it's even worse than frustration. It's just a sort of sense of hopelessness that you're not gonna be able to find it again. And so I think that was what caused this terrible sense of anxiety and just erratic behavior. So the reason that they, Martin, felt that the marriage was in real trouble was because she just wasn't engaging at home. So the family would be there, she wasn't, oh, what did you do today? She

just wasn't engaging and she was withdrawing, perhaps because she knew what was happening to her and she wanted to just pretend it wasn't happening and not talk about it. And perhaps also she just lost that energy to engage. Right. And she was increasingly irritated by the kinds of things that actually irritate all of us. Wet towels on floors. I mean, I'm so with her there. How many times? And it just doesn't matter who's responsible for it. If it's not you, you're livid. It's the fact that getting a diagnosis, particularly of Alzheimer's, are there any benefits? Because what kind of treatment is out there? I mean, I understand people need to know the symptoms and they need to get help, but

what do you gain from it? I think this is the thing that's just I found most shocking about knowing Fiona is that if she had been diagnosed with cancer, there's a process, isn't there? There's a process from that point. You would have your radiotherapy, your chemotherapy, you'd have your surgery, you'd have your outpatient appointments. There's a process. And you get loads of sympathy too, rightly. Yes.

But then with this, she was told this was happened, and then she was sent home. And that's kind of it. I mean, she was very lucky because she was put on a trial for some drugs that were being tested. And that I think have a twofold benefit. Firstly, because they didn't actually, still don't really know whether that was a placebo that she was on or the actual drug,

but hopefully it stalled it for a while. But the other major benefit was it kind of gave us something to sort of look forward to. She had another appointment or maybe this will help, maybe this. Whereas now that's over and that's been over for, you know, over a year, there is nothing. She just has to sit at home and get progressively worse. And actually I think Martin has spoken about this hasn't he? He said there are all kinds of very sensitively done lovely videos on Instagram and elsewhere about cancer patients celebrating the end of chemo. I'm not underestimating what that is like to go through at all, by the way, but there isn't an equivalent here. Well, this is a terminal disease. It's only going to end one way. That's the really horrendous

point and it's a terminal disease that goes on for a very long time. Or can go on for a very long time. Yeah. Yeah. And what does Martin want to achieve by this book? Because he's really laid it on the line about the stresses and strains of being a carer. What does he hope will happen or change?

I think he's very angry that there isn't more support for carers. I mean, I think he would like to see more money going into research, but I think there is a kind of a realism about how much more work there is to be done there before that's actually going to be impacting people's lives. So in the short term, if there could be greater support for carers and a greater So in the short term, if there could be greater support for carers and a greater acknowledgement of what a terrible disease this is. And perhaps the only reason it doesn't get more attention is because so frequently it impacts people who are older.

And as a society, we haven't or don't want to think about that. But Fiona is only 64 now. She is. She is. But then that's what's so sad. She's so young. But would we be talking about this if she was in her 70s or 80s? And so there are so many families that are equally impacted by the consequences of it.

But because perhaps they're older, they're kind of left to get on with it until such point as they access the care system. I agree. I think it is put in that kind of part of sympathy, which is slightly diluted by inevitability. And that must be really, really hard work to be on the receiving end of.

Is there any positive news in terms of treatments for Alzheimer's or even a possible cure? So the trial that Fiona was on for those drugs and other trials that have been going on here and in the States, they feel they're making real progress and that, you know, within the next couple of decades, it could be significantly different. But in this country country there was some drugs that didn't get signed off by NICE, the drugs regulator, because the cost is enormous.

And even at best they might stabilize, they might give somebody more time but it's not a cure. But one day there will be, so that's the point, all the experts you speak to say one day there will be a cure but it's not now. And you've seen Fiona Phillips relatively recently, how is she doing? Yeah I saw her a couple of weeks ago, went around for a cup of tea and she, she, it's tough, it's really tough and she's... she's... If you're talking to her about the here and now, about the weather or, you know, the cake that took round or it's okay,

but then she has this issue whereby she thinks she's in pain, a physical pain, and the doctors cannot find what the cause of that is, although they've done numerous, numerous tests, and so it could be that it's her brain telling her she's in pain, which just seems beyond cruel that her brain could be doing that to her, and obviously that's incredibly distressing and she gets tired and anxious, and then she would just say over and over again, this is just such an awful disease, this is such an awful disease, I can't believe this is happening to me, why is this happening to me? And the really sad bit about that is,

as you would try to do with a friend, you try to console them and say, oh, you know, we're going to go to the doctor, you know, Martin says you're going to go to the doctor and they'll help and so you think you've consoled someone, they feel a bit better and a couple of minutes later she's saying exactly the same thing again. She's left in this perpetual agony. It's hell, it really is. Alison, thank you very much. Alison Phillips, who assisted Fiona Phillips with that book about Fiona's experience of her life with Alzheimer's disease. It's just, I can't, I don't know, the injustice there

in that story is just, it's off the scale really, that Fiona Phillips has had such a tough time dealing with both her parents' experience of Alzheimer's, only to then get it herself. She did so much good work, Jane. She did a documentary, which is probably still available on the iPlayer, for the BBC at a time when I don't think the curtain had really been pulled back on the reality of caring for parents in particular with Alzheimer's. She was so brilliantly dynamic about it, actually wasn't she, and she is a remarkable woman. I think in journalism she was underestimated because she was on

the breakfast sofa and there was quite often, I mean there is a lot of stuff on that breakfast sofa that you have to do which is, affect exactly the same tone when you're talking about some incredibly serious government policy as the next twist and turn in Emmerdale. But very few people can do that and I think she did it well and she did have an extraordinary energy to be able to do that job while she was caring to extraordinarily unwell parents. So I'm completely with you. When the universe deals somebody such, such a bad hand, when they have tried to be the person dealing with the bad hand in the first place, it just, it makes no sense. And I just really hope that she knows how much people are

admiring of her for all of the different stages of her life. And there's no way of saying that without that sounding patronising at you. And I really don't want to. No, no, it's all right. And also, because it's not, I mean, a life shouldn't be a before and after with illness, but it's often cast as that, isn't it? Well, on the cover of this book, there's a quote from Lorraine Kelly who says, her honesty and resilience shine through on every page.

And we often talk about memoirs being honest, but actually this is uncomfortably honest at times. And I think it's also really important to say that the insight from Fiona's husband Martin is really interesting because he's plain speaking about just how bloody stressful it is to have a partner in you know with battling something, living with something that is bloody cruel but incredibly tough to be around because you know you are a challenge to the people caring for you and the people can love you and I've no doubt at all that Martin loves Fiona but it is not not easy and and as they both point out they've got resources so imagine how hard it would be if you

didn't have them. Anyway I hope people read this book and I hope it just concentrates a few minds and as you say actually we didn't used to talk about Alzheimer's very much now we are at least talking about it so that's I guess something. Oh gosh and also I just think there have been medical advances that if they continue in the same kind of way and at the same kind of pace might be able to offer some really decent hope in the future. So you know, let's pray for that. I'm sure that that interview will have really thrown some things up

for an awful lot of people listening so if you'd like to drop us that. I'm sure that that interview will have really thrown some things up for an awful lot of people listening. So if you'd like to drop us a line, you don't have to have something hugely, you know, important or whatever to say. Sometimes it just helps to just bung it on an email. We are completely here for that and we'll try and read out as many as we can over the next couple of days. Jane and Fee at Time Stop Radio. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

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