Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Leslie Phillips with knobs on (with Geoff Norcott)

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Jane and Fi discuss a new potential business venture, but it does need a bit of work... They also cover skiving, 3 wick candles and boarding schools. ALSO, listen out for the next book club pick!!!! Plus, Geoff Norcott joins to discuss his new documentary 'Is University Really Worth It?' If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, it's the era of the lounge lizard with the pencil-thin moustache, possibly wearing some silk inner shoes, right? Now, I'm going to beg your forgiveness to read this, please, because when I read it, I thought, hmm, that's us. Who's lurking outside? Go on, do a bit of strong-arm stuff. It does smell. thought, hmm, that's us. Who's lurking outside? Do a bit of strong arm stuff. It does smell. There's a terrible smell in here.

What's she doing? It smells of school lunches. You know that it's 11.45 in a corridor smell, isn't it? When you just think, what is it that they're either broiling or it's not frying, is it? It's definitely a broil. I was going to say, that's not the smell, surely. Mariella's home.

I think it would be slightly more scented than this. I think it would be lovely, Mariella's home. Probably we'll have one of those very posh candles on a long burn, won't it? Mariella's home. I think Mariella would have one of those three-wick candles. I aspire to a three-wick candle. I've ever owned a three-wick candles. I aspire to a three-wick candle. I've never owned a three-wick. Yeah.

Well, they're always, it's like the body shop large bottle, isn't it? You just can't. It's a distant dream. You can't quite make yourself do it. I read this this morning, Jane, and, you know, sometimes you read something and you think,

yeah, that's me and that's not good. And it was a piece by Martha Lane Fox and it's about going to visit a really amazing project called iron the code in a refugee camp called kukuma in northern kenya and iron the code teaches girls in the refugee camp how to code so that they have some skills for when life begins again on the outside or for when life doesn't begin again on the outside. So it's a really amazing thing. But she says,

I went to coincide with International Women's Day on March the 8th. It's easy to feel jaded about this event. Put your hand up when you think this is you and me. It can be a tyranny for already busy women who are asked to sit on a bunch of panels, go to a ton of events and push out affirmative messages about girl power on social media. Every year there is the inevitable hand-wringing

and navel-gazing about its value and some women flounce off declaring it's not for them. Is your hand up yet? My hand's up because that's what we said, actually. And she goes on to say, well, to the women and girls of Kakuma, it does matter. This was a chance to feel heard and seen and part of something wider than the camp.

It was moving Tyrell the poetry and witness the dance and the fashion showed shows a strong thoughtful brave brilliant switched on girls powered by technology I will try not to spend another women's day in a London office and I just thought yep okay so it was just it was just worth pointing out. Yeah. Okay. But I think it absolutely has a powerful message in parts of the world like that. But can we just actually also include this email from Elizabeth? After a long time in the workforce

and over 20 years in HR roles, International Women's Day was wearing thin. All events, talks, workshops were preaching to the converted, which was what we were saying. Until this year, when I saw somebody called Caroline Fairburger speak. Hearing her experience of being a male CEO until she was 50, and then spending the last six years as a female CEO, and her understanding of her privileges as a man was quite fantastic. However, the reason she was so good was that a huge number of our senior male leadership turned up.

She opened their eyes because she'd been in their shoes. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. So that is really interesting, isn't it? Yeah. So I just think you do need to just turn the dial a bit and that's what we were saying. And I think just next year we just have to make sure that we do do something a little bit out of the building. Well, I mean, leaving the building would be amazing.

Would it? I do go home. I don't like to leave the building during the working day. I just get that slightly naughty. Did you ever skive off from school? No. Okay. I used to skive off a lot in sixth

form and i'd drive my six was not quite the same is it i'd cycle my red racing bike incredibly fast down the avenue in front of the trees so nobody could spot me going home at 11 45 and i think sometimes i did tell myself i'd come back for afternoon lessons of course you never do but i've got the same feeling so I can't go out for lunch. I can't go out to get lunch because I think I won't come back. What if you had a free period? Oh, they're never free. No.

What, you mean at work? We kind of have a free period here before we start, don't we? This is effectively doing a podcast. It is a free period. We should start calling the show Nevermind Off Air. Let's call it a free period. It couldn't't be the best thing about the sixth form that this the free periods wonderful i remember trying to because my parents left school at 16 so when i tried to kind of explain the concept of a free period and this was what but you're not having

lessons no no they were wonderful that was where all, that was where all the real action was in the free periods. I was in the Sixth Form common room when Princess Di's engagement was announced. And I was thinking of that the other day when you were reading from Mr Bates's memoir because it was Simon Bates who announced it on Radio 1. Was it? Yeah.

Oh, in those dulcet, warm, timbre tones. Oh, yes. Well, he was very much a statesman, was Batesy. And actually, the song he played, totally inappropriate, actually, was John Lennon's Woman. Oh, OK. And then, in fact, I think he played it twice

in succession because the news was of such import that he didn't really know where to go. He was blown off his DJ course by the phenomenal announcement. Now, why did you think it particularly... What would have been a better record? I don't know, something...

I suppose Woman, I Can Hardly Express. What's the lyric of John? My inner something and thankfulness. It's sort of a song you'd play when you're 20 or 30 years into a relationship about a woman, and presumably he was singing about Yoko and that would make sense.

Yeah. But it didn't seem... Anyway, look, I don't know why I'm questioning the DJ choices. This is 1981. I need to be over this. I should have moved on. I should have moved on.

Imagine the meeting that they would have had in the run-up to the possibility of that announcement being made at Radio 1. As to what tune would be played at the time. They do, they angst over things like that. Well, yeah, do you remember the band music during the Iraq war? Yeah, there was a whole long list. BBC banned a whole list of songs which we couldn't play.

That's when I think we were both music DJs in our younger day. Linda says, I'm a little reluctant to recommend this showbiz memoir as I am actually a huge fan of this man. However, his literary musings should not be kept from you. Have either of you read Michael Flatley's autobiography? No, but I'm going to now. Yeah, he is the king of river dance. Linda says, it's just spectacularly awful.

Sorry, but it is. It will give you many hours of entertainment. Well, you order that. Okay, I will. And if it's okay with you, I'm going to go off piece. I'm not going to do Michael Parkinson. I'm just going to do a little bit from David Niven because it is quite something.

David Niven, crikey. Well, it's really, so he became as well known for his books because I think there are quite a few volumes of his autobiography. It was The Moons of Balloon. Yes, exactly that, about the nature of fame. And they were hugely successful. And then he did actually write his own novel off the back of it too. So I've been chortling at home

over some of the descriptions of life in the 1950s. A male chauvinist pig? No, do you know what? He does write very well and self-deprecatingly and it is very funny, but it is just a different era. I mean, it's the era of the lounge lizard with the pencil-thin moustache,

possibly wearing some silk inner shoes under its slip-ons. So it's Leslie Phillips with knobs on. It is that kind of, you know, I just imagine these men who are kind of gliding through life, just gliding through. It's a bit of a fine thing. So I also thought that we should spend just a tiny bit more time talking about American Riviera Orchard because I don't think we've given it the full welly yet.

And I think that our listeners might have some things to contribute. American Riviera Orchard is the, as you said yesterday, word soup that's been created by Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex. And Harry. And Harry. It's a merchandising opportunity. And it's going to come out of Montecito. And what kind of things will we be able to buy

from American... I've written it down because I just can't remember it. I can't remember it. It doesn't stick, does it? I think things... It's products like nut butter and yoga mats and I'm guessing, well, tablecloths, special napkins.

Who doesn't love? Who doesn't love a cloth? A proper napkin. I love a proper napkin. And it sets mealtimes alight, doesn't it, when you sit down with a proper napkin? Do you think that they'll do those tea towels that you can buy in National Trust properties that list the genealogy of the kings of England?

Probably not those. There's something very funny about tea towels, because they can be incredibly pompous. But also they can be incredibly informative. And also educational. But when you consider what they're actually for, it's a bit rogue. But I think the tea towel with informative things on it

is a thing of the past, actually. Mum had one that had the kings and queens of England, and I swear to God, I learnt more from that because it just hung in the kitchen in front of the cooker and I swear to God, I learnt more from that than just hung in the kitchen in front of the cooker than I ever did in the history lessons. I'm a real sucker for a fridge magnet, and everywhere I go, every place I visit, I get a fridge magnet. And I was at Tate Britain on the weekend,

and I bought four fridge magnets there, because I think they were four for a tenner or something. Really good value. I mean, that is really good value, isn't it? It is. I thought so. I'm casting deep into my retail experience knowledge of fridge magnets. So I've got several artworks in fridge magnet form.

Okay. Well, that's very good. Isn't it? I know, just, you know, you're pinning something to your fridge and, you know, it's lovely. Yeah. My favourite one's an Esper drill bought in Menorca. You've got me some. I've still got the pair.

Yeah. In fact, you splashed out, you got me two. But I think we could have some fun if we were going to do our own equivalent. So what would ours be? American, it would be British. Yeah. Riviera.

Seaside stroll. Burnt out pier. Blackpool pier. Burnham-on-Sea. Oh God, this is where it gets slightly difficult british what's our seaside well it had to be seaside british seaside orchard allotment backyard uh british seaside garden british seaside garden yeah so. So what are the things that we're going to sell out of British Seaside Garden? I think actually it's more likely to be mini-golf, isn't it?

Yeah, I don't know. Riviera is a mini-golf. It just hasn't taken off this for me. British mini-golf, what was it? Garden, yeah. British mini-golf garden. Yeah. No, we need, this needs more work

it does, well our listeners will furnish us with a list of merchandise that they'd like us to sell at British mini golf garden by the way, this is actually a serious opportunity for us, so if you can think of any products that you would buy we're moving into the world of merchandising you're laughing at Harry and Megan

but seriously we're coming at you look out Montecito how. Look out, Montecito. I can't ever pronounce that either. How is it pronounced? Montecito. Yeah. I think we've got as far as a tote bag, didn't we?

Well, yes. We've got to have more than a tote bag. We've got to get on with this. This is actually a podcast. And we were talking seriously yesterday about funerals and about what it's like to speak at a funeral. And thank you so much for your very touching and, can I say, nuanced responses to this.

And I think this is a really interesting experience from a listener. We don't need to mention her name. Last year, my ex-husband died by suicide. Now, that must have been terrible, by the way, and I'm so sorry. I hadn't spoken to him for many, many years and he was distanced from our three adult children.

He also had another child from his second marriage. Now, as it turned out, none of them felt they could stand up and speak, and I did understand this. As it was a family-only event, his funeral, I was the only person who could manage it. His sibling was no longer alive. So I wrote the first part of his eulogy, and the adult child from his second marriage wrote the second part. It was a challenge to not mention myself or his second ex-wife, she didn't attend, but just to focus on the most positive facts of his life.

It was a strange experience and not something I did very well at all, none of us being good at public speaking. Well, we don't know whether you did it well, but the fact that you did it at all is incredibly commendable. She goes on to say, but at least it was something. And we were able to put together an excellent slideshow with great music, which I feel made it more tolerable. I was acutely embarrassed to find out afterwards that the funeral had been videoed and many people watched it in real time in the remote country town in which she lived. I'm Australian and I can assure you

lots of people still say koala bear. Okay well that was not, thank you for that. But I really admire you for speaking at that event. That must have been exceptionally difficult and but how wonderful that you did do it and that you were able to to put all the right stuff in because that will have been quite a task, I suspect, but really brilliant that you did it. Very much so. I think I brought the wrong pile of emails in with me, Jane. And then it would be a mistake, having said that, to start reading out stuff from the wrong pile of emails

because that would seem a little bit rude to people who are in the right pile. There's no wrong pile or right pile. But there's just a pile that we might not get to today. So have you got another one there? I have because we have had some really interesting ones on this subject. This is from Pauline again in Australia.

Jane and Fee, I've spoken at eight funerals. My parents, several friends, old teachers. It is obviously a difficult thing to do and yet one always wants to remain self-possessed in order to do justice to the loved one. The best advice anyone ever gave me was to speak the eulogy out loud multiple times

before trying to deliver it. You need to get yourself to the position where you are so thoroughly familiar with the text that you don't upset yourself in the delivery. And I think that's excellent advice. Yeah. Because I do think if you are doing the eulogy, one would totally sympathise with somebody who broke down.

But in the end, it's not about you, is it? And that's a tough lesson for me, let me tell you. But it really isn't. And i've got to sort of confess like i did do eulogy for a very good friend of mine some years ago and i was very young when i did it because he died very very young i got it wrong actually i now realize i think i spoke in a way that paid tribute to his professional talents but but didn't really couldn't have encompassed what he meant to his mum, for example, because I wasn't even a parent at the time.

I don't know. I've often thought about that and thought, oh, God, if I got the opportunity of that again, I'd do it much better. But also I think, Jane, it just doesn't matter if you do break down. You know, it is one of those occasions where people's expectations, I are really normal they're not you know they're not

looking to you to take them somewhere remarkable or to be ultimately professional they know that it's probably not your normal job and you're outside of your own emotional comfort zone too so I think it probably helps just to realize that it would be okay if you didn't make it through to the end and I've been to funerals where somebody else has to pick up the speech Yeah, it's always good to have somebody standing by Yeah, very much so This one, and thank you Eve because Eve popped out to get the pile

that I'd earmarked stuff from This is a ticking off from Mifft in Hampshire I love the show I've been a faithful listener to you from day one. Once again, though, you've not announced the book club book on the day promised. Why? It's very annoying. Sending a big tut with a huge emoji

eye roll. I still love you both, though. That's the kind of love that we like. It's unconditional and forgiving. Right, we are going to be reading A Dutiful Boy by... Oh, look, we're on film. It's called A Dutiful Boy, as my colleague points out,

and it's by Mohsin Zaidi. And it is in paperback now. It's autobiographical. It's a memoir of secrets, lies and family love. That's the subtitle. It's about a British man who is growing up in a devout Muslim household and he's gay and it's exceptionally difficult

but he triumphs ultimately becomes the first person from his school to go to Oxford so a colossal achievement there and it's been much praised lots of people say this is excellent and I'm looking forward to reading it Who was the chooser?

Who was the recommender? We'll get back to you on that. Don't worry, we'll get back to you on that. So we divided all of the recommendations into four and we took them all home with us and read them through. So please, if you sent in a recommendation, it was suitably poured over and we've chosen this because? Because it's a British experience, it's

a gay male experience, it's a Muslim experience. It just certainly takes me somewhere else. And we wanted to do something that was rooted in Britain that wasn't fiction because I don't think we've done a single book set in Britain up to this point. Not yet.

So we thought we'd just have a little touch of home. Lovely. So it's not a huge book, is it? No, it's not. That's another part of its appeal, obviously. It is 273 pages long. It's nicely spaced. I'd say that's probably on 1.5, and the font is about 11.

So it's okay. It's okay. It's not like one of those Dickensian tomes, which is packed in, kind of 0.5. And we'll read it, what, we'll do it in six weeks' time? Oh, yes, I think I could manage it in six weeks. Something like that, yeah. Thank you also for all your fantastic television recommendations.

Jill is the second person to recommend Under the Banner of Heaven for immediate viewing, says Jill. I might leave now. It's on ITVX, but also Disney Plus stars Andrew Garfield, based on a true story concerning a murder in the Mormon community. I understand it was written by Tom Daley's husband, who was brought up in the Mormon community. Gripping, says Jill.

So, yeah, I might give that a go. And I started The Gone last night. Oh, did you? Yes. On BBC4. Yeah. Woof. Yes, I The Gone last night. Oh, did you? Yes. On BBC4. Woof. Yes, I think it's good. Yeah.

And do you know, I don't think I've ever watched a show set in New Zealand. Ever. Was the... Was it the Loch one was set in New Zealand? The really terrifying adaptation. I'll get round to it. I'll have a look.

Beautiful backdrop. Yeah. Obviously, slight kind of Irish gangland subplot. All good so far, Jane. All good. And one of the characters has the surname... What? Garvey.

That's why I like it. Do you ever wonder about the solipsistic journey through life? No, I don't. Although, funnily enough, I couldn't watch Bad Sisters, which was the Apple show with Sharon Hawkins because they played the Garvey sisters. I didn't like that. Because they weren't nice.

They weren't very nice to each other. Right. This is about boarding school. And it's interesting because people, I think if you've been to boarding school and you had a pretty good experience, you're quite defensive about the whole subject of boarding schools, aren't you?

And so you should be. And I guess you would be. Because you wouldn't want to hear somebody dissing your childhood who actually doesn't have the experience that you've had. This is from, oh, Fiona. I went at five years of age i mean that is so young as did my older brother it was the 60s she says my father was a planter in malaysia and we live

remotely on plantations a school was established in the country to accommodate expat children of planters and tin mining and other expats so children would not need to go overseas until they were older at say 10. It was still a plane ride, a bus journey, a funicular railway ride followed by a walk to the school which is on top of Penang Hill. I mean that does sound, it sounds so impossibly exotic. It was difficult at times but we were all in the same boat and we just got on with it. I remember the first nights back at school, hearing all the muffle crying into the pillows after lights out. I remember a particular teacher, her Mrs Ong, who would throw chalk and blackboard dusters at our heads if we weren't concentrating. She would also hang children upside down by their ankles, though I can't remember why. It wasn't for fun though. I do remember the drama of one very irate dad

supposedly turning up to the school to confront the teacher. It must have been a rumour because frankly she continued to teach there. After the evening meal we'd say the Lord's Prayer, sing a hymn and hope our name would be read out to collect a letter from home. When I was then sent to boarding school in Scotland at 10, I was an old pro at boarding. I did find it a cultural shock though, cold and my uniform was itchy. I did find myself at the age of 11, pinned up against a wall by my throat by an irate teacher and was routinely humiliated in class, having to stand on desks and cupboards. The teacher did end up in jail years later. I mean, you know, this stuff did go on, didn't it? My husband still says i'm a cold fish

at times he went to boarding school too but he didn't go until he was 10 and he's got some stories as well um i think yeah fiona's experiences i mean i have to say that's probably more typical of that era and one would really sincerely hope that they are not such extreme experiences now but we have had quite a few emails from people saying look I went and it actually was great and I think apart from anything else

I think there's better vetting of teachers you've got to hope there's better vetting of teachers but also there's a lot of flexi-boarding in boarding schools now where you can choose how many nights you're going to stay and presumably that means that your parents live relatively close, certainly not a plane and a train and a funicular ride away.

So you wouldn't feel quite so estranged from the rest of the world, would you? But I think also it's not our right or job to condemn other people for their parents' choices. I mean, you know. No, I think our correspondent there, you revisit some of your parents' decisions, don't you? And then we know when we become parents ourselves that um we're likely to be making potentially um life impactful life choices on behalf of our own

children almost from the minute they're born so you know and you're not going to be perfect no and i wonder how many how many uh you know parents who didn't go to boarding school then decide that it's a great place for their kids to go. Because the assumption always is, isn't there, you've been to boarding school, it's been a terrible experience, you definitely make the choice never to send your kids. But the boarding schools of Britain presumably are quite full. So somebody is making

the choice to go. I think a lot of people had a terrible time at boarding school and then sent their children to boarding school. I think that appears to be quite a thing as well. There's a small area of judgment and condemnation there. Yeah, exactly. Right, but you can't blame your kids for what your parents choose.

This one comes from Pamela Wade. Your worn-out correspondent who's finding the admin of teaching just too weary and should know, and I understand why, that there are more ex-teachers out there than any other profession. I didn't know that

from sting he always rears his head somewhere doesn't he to alexander graham bell there's absolutely no limit to what teachers can turn their hands to and succeed at thanks to the demands and incidental training of that job pamela includes herself in that cohort and says i'm very glad i made the jump it changed and enriched my life immensely, even if travel writing is much more of a lifestyle than a living. And Pamela is an award-winning freelance travel writer. She's been doing that since 2009. Our guest on the programme today used to be a teacher.

What about that for a link? Geoff Norcott is with us. He has just made a documentary. It's on the BBC iPlayer now. It's called Is University Really Worth It? It was broadcast on BBC Two last week. You may have caught it then, but you've still got every chance to see it.

Let's just have a quick listen. And when I went to uni, it was a time to explore choices, you know, make mistakes, have fun. And now, proud to have myself, I've started thinking about what uni might be like for Geoff Jr. from what I'm hearing things ain't great lecturers have been striking and 69% of graduates feel their degree wasn't even

worth it so I should be putting away a bit of money now so that Geoff junior can follow in my footsteps but I also need a new motor so I'm gonna hit the road to find out where my money's best spent and start doing some research. He's got an English degree from Goldsmiths at London University, has Jeff? That's correct, isn't it? You've got a 2.1. 2.1. Very incongruous place for me to go, Goldsmiths.

It's in Deptford, isn't it? It's in Deptford, but it's very trendy and right on. It's very artistic, Jeff. Very artistic. I mean, they were... I went in the mid-90s during the Damien Hirst, Tracey Emin blur thing, and a lot of people went there because it was like a destination place.

I went there because I could commute. And I looked on the map, I went, where can I get to from Mitcham and get home again? But that's what happens when you're the first in your family to go to university. You think, right, where can I get to by bus? Yeah, and that's exactly what you did. But you are probably the only right-wing comedian to have gone to Goldsmiths, I would imagine. university you think right where can i get to by bus yeah and that's exactly what you did but you are you are probably the only right wing comedian to have gone to goldsmiths i would imagine i'm not

sure that i figure higher in their alumni they probably keep that quiet and fair play if i was them i'd go blur tracy m and damien hurst as well not so much jeff norcott right can i just ask if your son is called jeff he's not i was going to clarify that as, so the thing was, my dad was called Jeff Norquot as well. And I obviously thought that's a ridiculous thing to do a third time. But then as a comic, I'm going rule of three. That's kind of, it's funny again once you do it a third time. It is. But my wife, she didn't think that was,

she thought that was a joke that would be funny once. Rather than for a lifetime. Rather than for a lifetime. Okay, so it's not Jeff. Phew, I was worrying about that as well. So we know that it's some way off your son's potential university career. And the idea of the programme is that you travel the length and breadth of the land. I've got to say, and as V identified earlier, a really dirty car.

Dirty? I mean, lived in is another way of looking at it. You've got a lot of crumbs in that bit around the gear stick. Yes. With all the flabby fabric and stuff. Yeah, well, I don't know what that's called, the gear sleeve, perhaps, but that was commented upon. That was the thing that grossed people out the most. I mean, I would say that as a touring comic,

I've been on tour since forever, but that's the office, right? I'm in there every day. I'm spending, like, up to six hours a day in there, but it's unforgivable. I mean, there's no defence to how bad it looked. But, yeah, I mean, you're right in saying that my son is still relatively young, but I'm very on it about saving. So we thought we need a 10-year saving plan.

And then I realised basically that I'd always presumed that once I went to university, that would then be a thing in our family. But I sort of realised that given the noises coming out of the sector and stuff, I'd become like quite highly sceptical. Well, what was the situation when you went? Did you get a grant?

Yes, I did. I got, obviously, tuition fees were paid and I situation when you went? Did you get a grant? Yes, I did. Obviously, tuition fees were paid and I was one of the last ones to get a grant. It wasn't loads, but it was a couple of grand or something. So, yeah, now you realise what a privileged position that was to be in. So, I don't think it was the same for our generation. I don't think we thought about it very much. I was the first person in my family to go

and it was considered to be a bit of an achievement. And certainly nobody questioned... Well, there wasn't a financial outlay. I mean got by it wasn't a great existence but it was more than bearable it was seen to be postponing work in some ways wasn't it going like my dad was very very dubious about the whole thing i mean he he wasn't even sure that i should have done a levels it was like oh three more years what are you playing at and and then i've just realized in saying that i've sort of become my dad go, you know, get out, get a trade. But I do think materially the workplace has changed

and I think that when you look at what people could earn in trades, you know, I use the example of plumbers in the film and it's not just me, I don't obviously think every single person should become a plumber, but also I've never known a plumber that wasn't as busy as they wanted to be. And you do look at the march of AI and you sort of think, well, what are things that a computer could never do? And I think there's an actually sound logical reason that a computer could never do plumbing. Well, you need to future-proof your earnings, don't you?

And plumbing is one. I think hairdressing is another. Hairdressing, yeah. Let's not get onto the gender differences, but of course, hairdressing, usually, they're not always done by women, not as paid as well as plumbing. Well, one of your ex-students who you meet in the documentary is running a barber shop

and actually doing much better than his wife who went to university and got a degree and is now a teacher. So hair works. Hair does work. I mean, it's the only thing left on the high street. That's the only thing you go there for, is a haircut or a coffee.

So it seems, I was going to say growth area, but you'd have thought it was a bad joke, but it honestly wasn't. Let it pass. Hair is a growth area. But I went, yeah, I did go and meet those students and that was one of the most perilous moments because they kept it from me as to who the students were. And I was part, you know, I was a teacher in the Blair years

and fully promoting the old education. Everyone's got to get a degree. You went back to the school where you taught. I did go back to the school where I taught. And so I was just... I didn't know how it panned out for them. And actually, it hadn't panned out fantastically. You know, there was a cross-section of four of them.

And a couple of them, you know, people seeing the film actually felt that they'd sort of been press-ganged a bit into it, as though there was no other option. Now, I remember being a teacher around that time, and it was an orthodoxy, almost. It was was we've got to get our numbers up you know the percentage of students going into higher education is part of how school sells itself in the area now it's still like a noble thing to want to get kids to uni I'm not like dumping on the industry completely but but I just wonder if it's a time where we sort of reflect on how tempered that message needs to be based on the students, based on their skill set.

And the cost of it. I mean, the basics are your student loan for your tuition is £9,250 a year, for which you might get about seven or eight hours teaching a week, depending on what the course is. It's the same, though, if you're doing mechanical engineering, when presumably you get a load more teaching and a lot more many more hours spent in labs for example it's not aren't the people doing arts and social sciences degrees subsidizing those doing more practical frankly slightly harder degrees yes i mean well that would that would that might be the way that they see it and the problem is is there were some startling stats to come out of the research that we did. And one of them was that a male who does creative arts or some sort of creative degree, it will earn less than if they went straight to work from school.

I mean, maybe it's not that surprising when I say it out loud, but I suppose the reason it interested me was that we're often told, well, graduates will have higher lifetime earnings. And our generation, that's true. It's true true and it's still true but to an extent but that is a very blunt instrument of a stat if you actually start digging down into it it very much divides on what course you did where you did it you know red brick still has a massive premium whether it was related to a vocation like medicine or being a vet or so on and then you know when you once you get into the

humanities um not so much but then the problem is is like i think emotionally do i really want to be suggesting that no one should do the humanities absolutely not i did english and i love it but the costs are exponentially higher and you mentioned the tuition fees and another thing that sort of goes under the radar a bit is that the the loan hasn't actually gone up being upgraded with inflation so while pensions and benefits have all been upgraded with the the loan hasn't actually gone up been upgraded with inflation so while pensions and benefits have all been upgraded with inflation the loans haven't so rents have gone up and they can't even borrow to keep up with that well i mean my my youngest daughter is still at university and i think it does seem to me based on the experience of her and some of her cohorts that

it's a very different experience for those kids who as as with everything you come from slightly more privileged backgrounds because they've got so much financial help from home and then you've got kids who are putting themselves through university and having to pay their rent using the quite puny maintenance grant which you can apply for alongside the student loan it seems to be i mean i've just looked it up if you the maximum maintenance loan you can get if you're outside london and if your family household income is less than 25 grand the maximum a student gets is 10 grand 227 quid now you have to properly eke out an existence on that and some people are are doing that for most of the year well speaking of which i mean one of the the people in the documentary that most people

wanted to talk to me about was Malia, who's studying medicine. And it should be said that her situation is slightly aggravated by the fact she's estranged from her parents. But that's no guarantee that they're going to send food parcels or money every week. No, they might not be able to. They might not be able to. And she literally wasn't...

I mean, I was talking to her and I was trying to get, you know, into the reeds of what her life's like and ended up asking the question, are you actually getting enough calories on a day-in,-out basis it really came it really came down to that you know people working extra jobs and at a time when we feel like we need more doctors like what she's going through to get to that it just felt hard it felt really hard we were talking about this on her before and we've talked about it in the podcast too she's only on year two of her medical degree as well so she's got a lot coming at her already and she just looked really quite unwell she looked

tired and fed up i mean our hearts absolutely went out to her but do you think that the universities are doing enough aside from the finances to make sure that students like that are okay? Well, I mean, the duty of care did come into it. And, you know, there were some good examples. But one thing that came out was the COVID experience and how students were treated during that. I mean, you spoke about face-to-face learning. A lot of universities were very slow to go back to face-to-face learning, you know, were lagging way behind the rest of society. Some of them actually took on more students during that time because obviously you could do webinars and so on. And it's just not the same, is it?

I mean, if you're sitting there, what you imagine the uni life to be is not really the chat area of a Zoom, is it? You know, just sort of waving at each other while an international lecturer is doing a lecture on his sofa. That must have been an absolutely miserable experience. Well, yeah, I mean, Tia, who's in the documentary,

you know, she wanted to study art and, you know, it's a very tactile experience and she is part of, like, a big class action that is now happening with a law firm, which I think has already

got 150,000 people and I think they've got a legitimate case. If I was the unis, I would literally be going, right, we saw what happened with PPI, let's get ahead of this,

let's offer every student that went to college during that period a few hundred quid and let's head it off at the pass. Because I think, I mean, how far I can go in saying it, but I think that there's an interesting case to be had there. Yeah, well, what is the right system? Because V and I have been talking about this today. talk about this today and when we went to university the taxpayer most the vast majority of whom had no hope or expectation of going to university themselves were paying for the likes of us to do arts degrees now was that any fairer than the current situation we have right now this is what i find difficult is because broadly speaking i do agree with the principle of people paying uh for their their own education but you just wonder if it's the amount of people that are going.

Like the universities, you know, in the early 60s, 4% of people were doing degrees. Now it's 40%. But we're also told that, you know, the industry is creaking. They can't afford it. On a basic level, you think, well, there's loads more people doing a thing. They're all paying nine grand a pop.

You know, you've got international students. What is wrong with this sector is is it has it become bloated and and there are some universities that have just indulged in what frankly look like vanity projects you know these huge buildings these bridges and and and um and and there are quite a few not all i mean i think two-thirds aren't running at a surplus but about a third are and some of the big ones have got some fairly massive war chests, which seems a bit gross, actually, when you consider, you know, what modern students are facing. You did meet some very happy people who had not gone to university, didn't you?

Including the fantastic plumber who'd just come back from Turkey with his new teeth. Well, yeah, this is the thing. People say, why can't you get a decent plumber? Because they're on holiday, like, every third or fourth week. They seem to be going to Turkey, just living wonderful lives. And why not? It's like a really hard, specialised job.

But it did feel like there was a weird point in the noughties where we just sort of forgot how important and brilliant those jobs were. And so part of this film maybe is not to say that university is a terrible thing. It's a rebalancing process in the way that we discussed those options. And the vice-chancellor thing, some of the pay that they get, they would make the argument that it's

worth it in terms of what it brings in but there was one Vice-Chancellor whose package was worth like £750,000 a year. Well that is the woman in charge of Imperial which is a hugely important and well respected global institution in London isn't it? Three quarter of a million quid though. It's a lot of money I mean it is a lot nat has texted to say i'd like jeff to do

another show about how it feels to be a lecturer in one of these institutions you can't grade students fairly anymore you're pressured in fact somebody talked to you about that didn't they you're pressured into doing extra pastoral work for little pay because the students are clients now and reviews and tiktoks about how enjoyable their experience is far more important than your old school teaching well the grade inflation thing is is a really important aspect of it you know it's in between 2010 and 2020 the amount of firsts being awarded doubled now you might say kids work hard now they do yeah you know they're bright they're focused i don don't think anyone can credit the amount of people

that are capable of getting a first has doubled in that time. So you think, well, what else is it? I guess that they are sort of clients. They're able to say, if you give them a 2.1 or a 2.2 and they felt they deserved better, they can say, well, I've got nine grand on the table. But it says otherwise. That was completely different.

I wouldn't have dreamed of challenging a grade. But no wonder, if you're taking on 15, 20 grand worth of debt a year of course you're going to challenge it and and since the film's gone out i've had lots of people contacting me privately and i would say that the the issue of grade inflation is is perhaps worse than than i suspected people are being lent on to say you can't fail these people and someone that reached out to me and like i say i haven't got full verification for this but when it came to international students the pressure was even greater not to fail them right okay because they really are paying a lot of money three times yeah yeah um so here you sit what's the date today it's the 19th of march um the election well we

thought it might be may the second now they're talking about June, possibly. What's your best guess, Geoff? Well, I saw something say October 17th. I think maybe this is what we'll just do for the rest of the year. We'll just say, where's Kate and when will the election be? OK. And these will be eternal questions. I sort of, I mean, it is, look, it's great for content, isn't it? You know, if you're in the political...

Well, if Kate could stand for election, I think we'd have the ultimate content. Well, the dream ticket would, of course, be Kate and Martin Lewis. For some reason, the British public wish to be governed, I think, in a sort of benevolent dictatorship run by Martin Lewis. I think he's a nice enough guy. I don't know if he's proved enough for me that he could handle all these sort of offices of state. But he often says, you know, do balance transfers,

switch to a lower energy provider, and that feels like enough for a lot of the British public. He's very energetic, isn't he? Very energetic. Whenever I see him, I just think, whatever he's on, I'd like just a quarter of it, and I would function quite well. If you were a Tory party strategist, which I know you're not,

would you advise them to change leader now? I think they would look legitimately insane if they did that. It just feels like there's no good way for them. I think one of the big mistakes that they've made is that if Sunak had come in, right, everyone's like, you're the steady guys, you're the boring men in suits, you and Hunt. It's like when a football club goes into administration.

I would have said, right, just don't mind us. We're going to sort this out. It's going to be really boring. We're not going to do anything flash. But in about a year, we'll get back to you and we'll let you know some of the stuff that we've done. But they've done these absurd number of rebrands, which I think when the public start to think,

well, if you don't know who you are, how can I know who you are? So, you know what? Look, I love content. Another leadership contest. I've changed my mind. Another leadership contest. Bring it on. Let's do it. It's always good. Look, I'm content. Another leadership contest. I've changed my mind. Another leadership contest. Bring it on. Let's do it.

It's always good. Look, I'm in political comedy, so a Tory leadership contest is like Harvest Festival. I mean, I know you attract an audience of people who are not necessarily Conservative supporters or even particularly right-wing, but do you encounter any enthusiasm for the Conservative Party as you go about your comedic business?

Well, this is the weird thing, isn't it? Because the people on the right are fed up with them as well. So what you find now comedically, a lot of people said, oh, it's a boom time during the Boris years and the Corbyn years. Actually, people were so tribally entrenched then, it was hard to do comedy that didn't overly annoy one group of those people. But now everyone's annoyed.

So it's the best time I can remember to do political comedy. And that's one of the ironies about this job is the worst things are the barriers for comedy and for news radio in fairness that was Geoff Norcott musing on university and whether or not it's the right path it isn't for everybody but it is for many isn't it Fi?

did you ever look back and think what a waste of time I shouldn't have done that I think I wasted my time at university, but that's not the fault of the institution. That's my fault. And I don't think I didn't make the most of it. And if you'd had to saddle yourself with debt,

would you have gone? Really good question, because my dad was out of work when I went to university. I'm not sure we... I think my parents... That's a really good question, and I don't know what the answer would have been. So 1982, Liverpool, would my parents have been able,

would they have believed that it was a good thing for me to go to university and be quotes, saddled with debt. And I know there are all kinds of interpretations of the student loan. And I know Martin Lewis, for example, the money saving expert says you shouldn't think of it as debt, blah, blah, blah. I get all that. And I'm not demeaning him at all, but I do wonder what my parents would have thought about that because they're quite risk-averse still. And I'm not sure that I would have gone.

It's interesting. I don't know. I really don't know. I mean, I'm really troubled by the fact that the young woman that Jeff meets in the documentary, who's a medical student, who doesn't have support from her own family, and we don't know why, but she doesn't, I thought her eking out an existence of barely any decent food was diabolical.

So she was the one who was having to shop for two weeks on 20 quid. It's ridiculous. And she was a second-year medical student. She looked exhausted already. She will, and wait till she actually gets to be doing hospital. This is preposterous. Yeah. So why do we not cut some slack

to people studying subjects that are vitally important? Yeah. I guess the debate there would be, well, where do you draw the line? Does a biochemist get a free pass but not someone who's doing geography? Well, I think the conclusion I came to after watching it, Jane,

was that something does have to change. I mean, it really does. So whatever it was that the government thought was going to be beneficial by introducing student loans and making students pay fees themselves has not come to fruition. Whatever it was that was on their piece of paper that said

this is the way forward it's going to save the country and the treasury money but it's not going to harm education it's wrong it's just not worked so i find this a debate i never know what the answer is so i when i went to university in 1982 it was on i got everything was free um i think this is right everything was fair although I'd been to a private school. So I went from a private school to a state-sponsored university education where I did almost no work because I was a lazy moo. And people with no opportunity to even dream of going to university were subsidising me not reading The Mill on the Floss in Birmingham.

Now, what's fair about that? Nothing. So, I don't know. I genuinely don't know how we fund... What is the fairest way to do this? Yeah, I did like the points that Geoff made about... Because I think our generation still sees... Hardly anybody went to university in those days, by the way. It was 4%, wasn't percent yeah it's not 40 percent yeah i think our generation sees universities as these uh you know

kind of slightly removed halls of excellence and education and you know the current generation knows that they're a business and so the point that he continually makes about the fact that the customers and the clients involved in a business are just you know they they they are entitled to a refund they are entitled to say this bit's not working that bit's not working and that's a whole different mindset isn't it so that just can't carry on i mean so there was loads and loads and loads i thought in in his documentary uh and well the pay of university vice chancellors i didn't know that it's a million pints is extraordinary yeah in some cases yeah well i don't think any of them are doing badly yeah i also i did think his car is uh jeff's car yeah jeff's car is really dirty and i drive a

pretty filthy car myself sorted out jeff lots of crumbs in that gear stick crevice. We're still getting emails about G-Hick. G-Hick cards. This is from Cleo. When Jane recounted your listeners' concerns about possible fraud enabled by the easy access G-Hick card, it reminded me of the time I went to Jordan in the early 90s when I was a young teen, exploring this fascinating

country, often criss-crossing the Jordan-Israeli border. Our English driver would always confidently wave his hatfield polytechnic library cards at the guards and every single time he was allowed to drive on they never challenged it so i'm i'm very very uh interested to hear that and it just shows you the power of a hatfield polytechnic library card that is power yeah you can go anywhere go anywhere with that more powerful than the irish driving license oh no we don't want to ignite that one again now hang on

we did i need to find my fumbling email about i know we've got to go about ireland yes here we go i was wondering about how irish people felt about st patrick's day i mean they have wildly exceeded all expectations on st paddy's Day. Jane asked for Irish opinions on people, they nearly are always Americans, claiming to be from the Republic of Ireland. Whilst mildly irritating, overall, I find it pleasurable. And it's a privilege to be met with joy when somebody finds out your nationality. My English mother is not as lucky in this respect, and notes the change in reaction when she shares that she's lived in Ireland for over 35 years.

Is St Patrick's Day a highly commercialised event based on high consumption of alcohol? And is that slightly embarrassing? Yes. Is there any other country in the world whose National Day is celebrated worldwide? Not that I'm aware of. I'll take the slight embarrassment for the grins, hugs and stories that come my way once my Irishness has been revealed.

And that is from Jenny. Well, congratulations, Jenny. And I think that's a very measured response. And she's right. No other country's National Day is in any way celebrated like St Patrick's Day. So that's a triumph, isn't it? It is.

Can you think of another country that we go i was just trying to think because quite often we're a bit blinkered aren't we because you know we base quite a lot of statements on simply not looking any further than the middle of the globe but no i've never we mustn't get parochial not on a day where the big story here is that princess kate's been to a farm shop right um keep your thoughts coming it's jane and fee at time stop radio uh we all love a farm shop by the way we really love a farm shop but my first thought because they're both carrying quite heavy plastic bags full of goodies i did think you should have taken your own bag actually that's

not great maybe a jane and feeoebe bag next time uh and then tell you what i did think that that would be fabulous you're probably 250 quid down because quite often a farm shop you'll just buy a small piece of artisanal cheese 95 pounds unpasteurized you'll find yourself buying a very odd pickle that just seems to appeal at the time uh some local scented candles and some homemade biscuits and you are you're you're 55 pounds out of pocket i know they can afford it but it was quite a haul but i'm i'm with her if you're convalescing at home a little trip out to a farm shop bingo thank you our royal correspondent um we did i did mention i keep saying we're going to finish but we just got one more funny email this did make me laugh we mentioned the other day that

the day the new the bbc said there was no news to broadcast oh yes and it's been verified yes that has been verified thank you for the person who verified it but um this is from andrew who says um i um years ago i lived and worked on a a small Caribbean island, which had a local radio station. Each lunchtime, they relayed the World Service news. Following the, that was the news from London, local news was then given, followed by island obituaries. On one memorable occasion, the announcer said, we regret to announce that there are no deaths today.

Thank you very much. That is from Andrew, who says he's 81 and can still remember being spellbound when listening to Children's Hour and the clarity and the diction of all the programmes now continued by Jane and Fee. Oh, well, that is a lovely thing to say. That's a proper compliment, Andrew, and thank you for that.

Yeah. Because clear enunciation, I mean, I'm not always the best at it, but it is beautiful when it's done, isn't it? It is. It's marvellous. And with that, we say farewell to our listeners from around the globe. We look forward to joining you at the same time tomorrow. Goodbye. Goodbye. Well done for getting to the end of another episode

of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know know ladies don't The lady listener. I'm sorry.