Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Let loose on Noddy (with Jacqueline Wilson)

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

Once Fi's finished eating her tuna sandwich, she and Jane get to work planning their twin room in the News UK Retirement Home for the Complex and Demanding.They're joined by one of Britain's best loved children's authors, Jacqueline Wilson.The Magic Faraway Tree: A New Adventure will be published on May 25th 2023.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producers: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sorry, I am just finishing off my lunch because I went, as you will know, because I put it up on the socials, because I am back on Twitter, because I couldn't live without it. I couldn't live without it, especially around the coronation. I wanted to see if I'm being funny about the orb. And everybody was actually very funny about the orb. So I went for an early morning, very, very, very chilly swim. 15.9 degrees

Jane. And when you get in, I mean lots of people swim. That's quite warm for Britain. Oh, is that the water temperature? Oh my God. It's so good. Because I haven't been for ages because of my silly midlife shoulders. So I swam a bit too much. I've just been hungry like ravenous all day.

What sandwich have you got? A tuna and mayonnaise. Oh, I haven't had a tuna sandwich for, it must be getting on for 30 years. Well, I always think if somebody's eating a tuna sandwich in the same room as you, you feel like you have had a tuna sandwich. So I'm sorry about that.

A bit whiffy. Well, just eat it. Okay. Because I'm very happy just to do the podcast. Read a long email. Yeah, I'll read a really, really long email. Thank you very much for contacting us here at Off Air. It's janeandfee at times.radio.

But mainly Jane. Well, nobody wants to hear a tuna sandwich filled voice. Disgusting. This is from Sandra who says, a rare chance today to listen to you live. Please don't say it like Fee does on your trailer as it sounds creepy. How do you say it on the trailer?

No, we've got rid of that. Oh, have we? I thought we were only saying it once and it drove me mad when you heard it 50 times. See, Sandra, it's not her fault. Honestly, it wasn't. Anyway, Sandra says she's got criticism of me here. You'll be glad to know.

I had to laugh at Jane's description of the faraway tree being one of Enid B enid blighton's fantasy books what does jane make of not well that's right well that's um it's funny you mentioned noddy because um it was noddy plays quite a significant part of my uh life with eldest daughter, because that was the very first thing we argued about. You know, when your children get verbally dexterous enough to take you on. She and I fell out quite dramatically when she was about two years of age because she said that Noddy was a girl. And I said, no, I'm really sorry. Noddy is a boy. And she just said, Noddy is a girl. I said, no, Noddy isn't a girl, because I'd been really familiar with Noddy is a boy. And she just went, Noddy is a girl! And I said, no, Noddy isn't a girl!

Because I'd been really familiar with Noddy over many, many years. I mean, to be honest... That sounds wrong, but we'll run with it. Well, no, I mean, his relationship with Big Ears doesn't actually... It would be faced with all sorts of scrutiny now. I think she'd have to rethink the whole thing. But anyway, so we always have a little laugh, Sandra, in our house about Noddy.

And there I am am laughing away again. I'm still determined that Noddy definitely was a boy. I mean, and Big Ears was just an older man taking a healthy interest in teaching him about cars. And didn't they, which is the one where they get into bed with each other at the end of the episode and say night-night. Was that naughty? Or they just went off on a drive together? That was more common wise. I mean, we grew up at such a confusing time

when two male comedians used to... Do you remember those sketches with them sitting bolt upright in bed in pinstripe pyjamas? I mean, it's just... No wonder I was confused, and I still am. Anyway, Sandra, Fee is going to mend her ways about saying live. Well, anyway, she already has. Oh, yeah, no, that's gone.

Chopped it, Sandra, chopped it. Yes, I take your point. To be fair to me and to my excellent colleague here, we were both slightly up against it because something we were going to do couldn't happen. And so we had to, at quite short notice, veer into an interview with the excellent Dame Jacqueline Wilson. You can hear more of that in a moment or two.

Yes, I think we did well today because it was a little bit like my anxiety dream that I have from time to time. About? Well, so I know that other people working in the radio have it too, where you've got the big clock in front of you and you've got minutes and minutes and minutes to fill with absolutely nothing to go to.

So sometimes the worst anxiety dream is I've got about 25 minutes to fill and every line goes down and it's just me. I'm sorry, you're not in my dreams. What? But you just have to keep talking and talking and talking and talking and it does still make me wake up in a cold sweat. Sorry, you're not in my dreams. What? But you just have to keep talking and talking and talking and talking. And it does still make me wake up in a cold sweat.

But at least I'm fully clothed, because lots of people have their naked anxiety dream, don't they? I never know what that means. What does that mean? There's that one, there's the one where all your teeth are falling out. I think they all just mean sexually frustrated. I mean, that's the thing they always throw at women. Just Freud.

Yeah, I mean, Freud. Sex mad. God knows what he'd have made of Noddy. Perhaps he was never let loose on Noddy. Let's just leave it there. Right. Okay, so Jacqueline Wilson is our surprise guest on today's affair. Are we going straight into Jacqueline? No, we're not, because we've got lots of emails.

One of the things we did talk about on the programme today, the Times Radio programme, was ketamine and drug use at university. And this is from a listener who says, we teach our teenage children how to put a condom on to have safe sex, but we won't talk to them about the reality of the world of recreational drugs, how to recognise the so-called bad one, what you can mix and what you can't. what you can mix and what you can't. My daughter is leading on a new project from a team at King's College seeking to promote awareness of what is going on in the world of benzodiazepines and other so-called legal drugs. They are actively working with young people, not just policy makers. My eyes have been opened and despite being terrified of the world my children now live in and socialise in, I know we have got to encourage open dialogue without censure.

Thank you to that listener for that one. I don't know. Do children at school, they are still children at school, get a lesson or a lecture on drug use before they go to university? Yes. So it's in PHSE. And I think, you know, it's open to interpretation by the schools who hopefully know something of what their kids are up to or are likely to be being tempted by. I think some schools try really really hard but I liked we had Fiona Spargo-Mabbs on the programme today whose son Daniel died from an overdose of recreational drugs.

And she has dedicated her life since then to setting up a drugs education charity. You can find it at DSM Foundation if you just tap that into a Google search or other search engine. But she always has such useful things to say. And her point today was absolutely about harm reduction because there's something weird going on jane isn't there where there is just this massive recreational drug use going on in plain sight now we referenced it a little bit with annie mac yesterday the music industry and many creative industries would not survive and thrive without drugs in them. They're so readily available and really acceptable.

So it is absolutely odd, and our correspondent is right, that we haven't managed as an older generation to catch up with the need to discuss drugs in a way that reflects how easily available, prevalent and harmful they are. There are certain also have to say that the difficult subject of class rears its ugly head here because Too bloody right. It's very, very, well, we all know who is likely to get into trouble for drug use and potentially dealing in drugs. And those people will carry on their gilded existence whether they've dealt or taken drugs for many many years yeah and they i absolutely agree jane and i think quite

often they're the people who end up in positions of authority in workplaces or wherever it is or in government yeah who effectively are condoning recreational drug use because of their own intake. And they don't seem to be able to tie up all of the arguments underneath it about criminality and harm and damage. So I find it very frustrating. And those kids who are being targeted by gangs, the county lines, all that stuff, it's all going on. But if your name is Hugo Fitzbiggs, you can

probably do what the hell you like and you'll continue to get away with it. And it's not fair. If you look at the stop and search figures around London, which are still really heavily leaning towards young black males, they will be stopped and searched and if drugs are found on them, prosecuted, cautioned or whatever it is, there will be, I could almost guarantee it, in the flats overlooking where the stop and search takes place, some far worse drug taking going on.

But because you don't look like that, no one's going to intervene. If you are called Hugo Fitzpigs, do just email. Yep. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Or you know one. So anyway, that's a bit of a rant, isn't it? Yeah, no, but it's important. Can we just get back briefly to sex drive?

Yes, of course you can. Anonymous says, I find the conversational flow between you both comforting. It reminds me of my mum and godmother having a chinwag over a bottle of Chardonnay. Well, as we've said many times before, neither of us like wine. Well well i'm trying to like it oh i really i used to love chardonnay but i couldn't go near a chardonnay now jane no no you'd be you'd be done in for a week wouldn't you uh with

regard to the topic of how often couples are having sex i think as long as both partners feel comfortable expressing their needs to each other and an equilibrium is met, frequency does not matter. I have personally found that a lack of dialogue in this department, to quote Jane, has led to secrecy and betrayal. I'm in my late 20s and the libidos of myself and my partner are different. My partner's libido has always been high, however I've had a low one for some years now. As all other aspects of our relationship are strong, neither of us wanted to acknowledge that our sex life or lack of could be an issue. But my lack of drive led to my partner to assume that I was no longer attracted to him

and subsequently to think that I may not be attracted to men at all. Not wanting to bring it up, a bruised self-esteem developed into a secretive and unhealthy relationship with porn, which spiralled into him seeking and then visiting an escort because he didn't want to, quotes, bother me with his needs. Right. As a side note, for my generation and below, growing up with pornography readily accessible, I do wonder how it has and will affect heterosexual relationships long term. Women are being depicted as being ready for anything straight away, whereas this is unrealistic for a lot of women in real life. The amount of warming up required to get to the same stage, especially for those with a low libido, could be translated by some men as a lack of attraction and internalized by some

women as a physical issue i do think that's interesting yeah i think what our anonymous correspondent is alluding to there is that in a lot of pornography a lot of main so-called mainstream straight pornography um penetration because that's what we're talking about is possible right from the off because that's what you're there for and it's just not as simple as that. Does that make sense? It does make perfect sense, yep. And that's an interesting one, isn't it? Because whenever we've talked about the really problematic area of porn addiction,

I think you and I have tended to talk about it with reference to a generation who've been brought up with porn available to them but of course porn is available to everybody Jo. It is. You know the older person and also you know there's just a very there's just such an obvious difference which you know probably doesn't need saying but I'll say it anyway, that kind of the dopamine hit that you can get from pornography because you're entirely in control of it and whatever image you want to use is obviously not there with your long-term partner who may have raised children, been very good at mowing the lawn and baking a nice pie

and all the other things that contribute, I'm not being silly here, to, you know, the long form dopamine hit of love. Yeah. I mean, that may have been the person you're referring to. It might have been that person who saw you that time you had the norovirus, for example. And we've all been there. So, yes, there's a lot to examine here. And neither of us are experts in anything. But we are delighted to provide what we will continue to regard as a safe space for people to say all sorts of things. And thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

What have you got there, Fi? Well, can I just ask you one more question about that? What do you think would equate to a sexual high in a more domestic sense? In a person, what would you think of as being really, really, absolutely gold star as part of a human being you chose to be with? I think it would be that person who did that grotty domestic task that you were on the cusp of suggesting they did, then you find out they've already done it. They've already completed it.

What was it the Times journalist referred to last week? Harriet Walker, the dustbin. The dustbin, yeah. I mean, I've had a husband, but he wasn't much of a dustbin, if I'm honest. There was always a certain amount of... And then it crosses over into what might be perceived by the other person as nagging okay so you would value someone's ability to do a task without being asked to do a task i think if i'm honest and that would give you the the dopamine the alternative dopamine hit i

hate to say taking the bins out but as um the lone well i'm not the lone adult in the house anymore i just still do all that stuff. I am sick to death of sorting out the bins. And there's no way either of my two Herberts are ever going to do that. They're just not going to do it. So you want a bin man? Well, tomorrow is Wednesday and it is bin day. Of course, famously, the last time my Herbert children really disgusted me

was when they revealed not that long ago that they thought bin men only worked on Wednesdays because our bin men came on. Oh no, don't start that again. Unbelievable. We've done other days, other days, other days. We've done it. I still get embarrassed when I think about that.

Okay, cool, cool. Quite a few people wanted to recommend the witch trials of J.K. Rowling when we were talking about trans issues. This is entitled Concerned Husband Problem. It wasn't an email that went in the direction I thought it was going to go in, Joanna. My husband has just messaged our daughters, ask your mother about looking at erotic DVDs and a certain podcast.

I was waiting for him in the DVD shop. That's an old-fashioned notion, isn't it? And happened to be near a copy of Emmanuel in some location. And then we got in the car and my podcast list popped up on the screen with Orgy in Suburbia. And he's seeing me in a whole new light. Thanks, I think, she says. That was us.

I know. In a previous life, one of our podcasts was titled Orgy in Suburbia. I really hope it didn't do well on the strength of its title. I hope everyone skipped over that episode. I can't imagine why they called it that.

Yeah. Anyway. Are you going into the big interview now? Would you like me to? I'd absolutely love you to. Right. OK. You're listening to the Home Service. Now, Dame Jacqueline Wilson is, I'm pretty certain, one of the most highly acclaimed children's authors that's ever lived.

She's certainly much revered in our house. Just somebody that my children absolutely gobbled up from a very early age. And I think she's just been a really gentle companion and a consistent presence in the lives of lots of Britain's young people. So we were delighted to get the chance to talk to her ahead of the publication next week of her reworking, as she'll go on to explain here,

of the Ina Blyton Magic Faraway Tree book, which she has, well, she'll explain in the interview what she's done with that book. So as is the way with most good interviews, we started at the beginning and asked her about how her writing career began. My first chapter book, and I was so proud of myself to read through because apart from that,

I had read just a few picture books, nursery rhyme book. I loved books. I loved the whole feel of them. Before I could actually properly read, I'd just look at the pictures and make up my own stories. Sadly, I wasn't really read aloud to very much as a child, so perhaps it was why I'm a writer now. I thought, OK, I'll do it for myself.

But I was given, I think it was The Enchanted Wood, the first in the Far Away Tree's source. I adored it. And I still to this day think it's one of the most original books and one that anybody who's read it as a child, and you mention it, their eyes shine. Because it's so clever to have three children, and Ida Blighton varies it with different children along the way, to meet all these strange magical creatures going up a tree. And then to have the device of having going up a ladder through a cloud. And there you are in a different land.

It can be very scary. They can be absolutely wonderful and i just i entered into the spiritual thing i made up my own magic lands i adored these books and then to be invited to do a kind of follow-on not nothing to do with rewriting Ina Blyton or the original books, but simply to have my own children set them free into the enchanted wood to go up the faraway tree to meet Silky the fairy, who I adored. I wanted to be Silky the fairy as a small child. And then to choose my own lands. I mean, what could be more fun?

Well, I'm glad you made that clear, because I suppose I thought it might be a case of the original had been in need of reworking because it was frankly old fashioned or it used language that wouldn't be acceptable these days. That isn't the case. That's not the case at all. In the land, the actual enchanted woodland, the actual enchanted woodland um traditions stay more or less the same apart from just one or two i don't know fairy terminology has changed just a little bit um but apart from that um it's a modern story my children are modern their cottage is like an Airbnb, something like that. But the wood is still there. And when you go into the wood, there is the faraway tree. And there, there's no technology there.

There's no problems with the modern world. We still have a Dame wash a lot, hands in her tub, no such things as washing machine. Though I do give her a pal, Dame iron all day, because she needs a bit of company for herself but it's very true to the original spirit I don't like books that kind of tease a little bit for modern sophisticated eyes or for parents reading aloud. I want this to give modern children a feeling of the magic that I felt that generations have felt and they've all stayed really good sellers even now.

And it's just a lovely, fun thing. A slight change from my more emotional, sometimes sad books. It's as if I've had a little holiday. Do you think that any of Enid Blyton's other books do need rewriting? I wouldn't think so at the moment. I don't actually sit with my nose in Enid Blyton, but I know the publishers are very careful. I don't think anything's been overly rewritten,

but I wouldn't know. Are they still selling well, the Mallory Towers and the Famous Five and all that stuff? I don't know, but certainly Mallory Towers. I saw one or two episodes on television. Yes, a TV reboot. I thought that was wonderful. And many mums and daughters told me all about it and said, this is superb. Unfortunately, I live in the middle of the country, and our Wi Fi is unpredictable. Now you

see it, then it buffers for ages. So it's not really possible for me to be completely current with things, but I did like the sound of this. Now, did you write this alongside one of the books we are more likely to associate you with, the ones you've just referenced, the tougher stuff? I don't write books actually in tandem, but it was between these books, and that it's easy enough to have a change of heart um a sort of different

mindset and um it was actually I mean I wrote The Magic Faraway Tree Our New Adventure during Covid and so they were gloomy times they were scary times for so many people. And so it felt good to be writing something that I don't see could possibly upset or disturb anyone. I mean, the Land of Dragons can be a bit scary, but it's the sort of scariness that I think children like rather than anything too worrying. We are talking to the children's author Dame Jacqueline Wilson and we asked her about the themes that she tends to write about and how she also is someone who tells it like it is rather than creating fantasy worlds for her characters. I try to possibly that's because when I was a child very very few books actually dealt with families that weren't particularly happy

or children who were quite poor and I thought then I even wrote rather pompously in a diary when I was still at primary school how much I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to write for children, but I wanted to write what it's really like to be a child. And I think I was lucky because times were gently changing. If I had lots of criticism and complaints from children, I would listen very carefully because I like kids.

I don't want to upset them. I haven't had that much criticism from adults. A few people don't care for my sorts of books, although, irritatingly, sometimes they're people who haven't actually read them. They just have an idea of them. But as long as the children like them and as long as people I really care about like them,

you know, it's fine with me. What kind of feedback do you get from the kids who read them? Oh, they are lovely. It's quite enchanting. You know, I get asked to be their granny. It's quite enchanting. You know, I get asked to be their granny. I get told that they've read it, a certain book, 20 times.

And, you know, they clearly know my books better than I do. I think one of the most moving things, because I've written several books about Tracy Beaker, who's been in and out of care. And now the grown up Tracy is actually fostering her own teenage girl with problems alongside her own daughter. The communications I treasure most are from young people who have been in and out of care themselves and they feel they're not alone, that somebody else is there. I haven't been in care myself, but I have been very proud to be associated with various fostering programmes.

When I say programmes, I mean organisations. And I've met umpteen children who have been in care. In fact, yesterday there was actually one at my house playing with the puppy and I feel that these children aren't overly represented in modern literature and that's what I've always been interested in children who aren't ever going to be the brightest in the class well actually looked after children can be but i'm thinking of me children like me when i was young not very bright at school apart from english um absolutely useless at sports never going to be picked for a school team

or patted on the head with teachers. But those kids, the ones that don't generally get written about. And what about your male characters? I'm thinking particularly, I guess, of dads. Now, in some of your books, not all, the men are, well, feckless, unreliable, and sometimes a lot worse than that. Well, the dad in my faraway tree book is a sweetheart.

Well, that's good. Very interested in the children. I have recently, I think, I have written a time shift novel just recently for 8 to 12-year-olds, The Other Edie Trimmer, and dad in that is very comforting and very caring. just recently for 8 to 12-year-olds, the other ED trimmer. And Dad in that is very comforting and very caring. Maybe I've, you know, turned a page and now I'm on... She's off-chain, isn't she? Just be pleasant men-a-go-go. Are you conscious then that perhaps you've... I hate to say this,

but maybe you've been too hard on men? Not exactly. I think i don't dislike men i've got um some of my i know this is such a cliche but some of my best friends are men i even lived with one for 30 years i can put you off them actually yeah sometimes maybe that's it. Maybe I'm so happy now. But, you know, I do think in children's books, you can have parents who aren't that great. Because, good Lord, there's so many kids who have parents that might be perfectly decent human beings, but aren't that great at parenting or get irritable or let kids down.

And I think it's a comfort to know that it happens to other children for for my readers and children are neglected i don't think you can emphasize this enough at all levels of society i mean the idea that it only happens in poorer households is it couldn't be further from the truth exactly and i have tackled that that now and then. I wrote a book called The Diamond Girls about four children with sisters who had four different fathers. And I did this deliberately and it sounds ridiculous. But one time that either the Times or the Sunday Times did a feature just before Christmas, not the books you've loved most, but the book you've hated most. And I settled down in bed after breakfast reading this with great interest,

thinking who will, you know, be recited. And to my astonishment, I saw that one of my children's books was Anne Widdicombe's most hated book, The Illustrated Mum. And she said this was because the girls in this book had two different fathers. And I thought, well, that's a very odd reason for disliking a book, although obviously she's welcomed her opinion. And so I thought, you know, there are all sorts of reasons why you and your sister could have different fathers so I thought damn it I'm gonna write a book about a

lovely mum who actually for various circumstances has these four girls with four different fathers and they're pretty cracking girls did you send a copy to Anne Whittaker? No, I didn't. And there was one time... As we should. We happened to be in the same green room at a literary festival and I was a little unnerved and smiled. Maybe she didn't know who I was, that's quite possible, but I didn't get a smile back. Gosh, well...

Well, in her defence, I've met Anne Whittaker. I think she was all right, Jacqueline. Not much of an anecdote, but I'm just going to bring that. Just in the interest of balance. This is good, and I like to feel this. And she's a fellow novelist, so all part of her. And I always think you like to think the best of most people, actually, Jacqueline.

I don't know whether you are unwilling to get drawn into the conversations about sensitivity editing at the moment but notable authors like Roald Dahl have found that their works have been rewritten and I wonder whether you feel that that is a point in that we're at a point in time where we're overreacting to something or we're actually doing the right thing at last. Well, I'm surprised at how much attention this has had. And I can only feel joyful that people care so much about children's books and have read them as children and feel, no, we must protect them.

And other people feel very strongly, no, we mustn't upset children. I don't think I've got anything else to add to the debate, but it's very interesting. Can I ask you a little bit about whether or not you've ever tackled pornography in your books for young teenagers? I haven't. It is very depressing, though. haven't. It is very depressing, though. Practically every day, there is some reference to this.

And I think in the paper today, there's a whole movement. Oh, is it Labour Party saying that they want to re-educate boys? Yes, it's a Labour Party policy announcement. I think it's very sad. I mean, truly, I'm not being coy. I'm not a veteran of porn sites. But I think they have become much more explicit and much more violent. And that's so sad. I suppose, really, what I'm kind of asking you to do it, I guess.

Because if anybody can, it's you. And Fee and I have been talking about this a little bit well more than a little bit haven't we yeah both on radio and on our podcast because the concern from parents is absolutely overwhelming and we're more or less powerless to stop eight nine well perhaps that's being melodramatic but probably not no what do you think 10 year olds looking at porn seeing porn i think there are some astonishing statistics about how many very young children as young as eight or nine have already seen pornography i think it's it would be a very worthy thing to do i think though just the very fact that i were writing

about it even if not explicitly but showing the effect it could have, would put off and worry a lot of people. I think a lot of people think that if there's something very upsetting, you know, just hide it from children without realising that mostly their children go to school, or even if they're home-educated, somehow or other, you know, children know their way around um any kind of computer tablet phone much better than parents or certainly grandparents do

um i will give it some thought but i think probably not i think also i would find it so depressing too well it is depressing yes yeah it really is but it's depressing. Well, it is depressing. Yes. It really is. But it's so problematic, isn't it? Because actually the silence around it is acting as a kind of fertiliser for it. You know, the less we are able to talk about pornography in a very normal kind of conversational way, I think the more likely it is that children go off and find it themselves without the guidance that is needed.

So it's such a difficult thing isn't it i also take i take jacqueline's point because were you to include it in a book even in passing the certain newspapers would be onto you like a yes i think i think um that is very likely yeah it is i'm here to tell you it's going to happen if you do it. But I still hope somebody does. Why don't you? OK. No, you see, it's not... If only it were that simple. You know, I've got children,

I've attempted to have conversations with them about pornography. God, it's not easy, is it? No, it's not easy at all. Can we just agree on that? We can, we can. I suppose, you know, to just turn the attention towards something else that is always in the news at the moment, misogyny is incredibly difficult to tackle in young boys at the moment. And I wonder, I mean, especially as a female writer, how you can ever be sure that you're in the mind of a man and understand that misogyny in order to put it on the page in a way that your readers will

recognize i think that's territory i wouldn't want to get into um because nearly always if i'm writing for children i have a child narrator and um i think also if if people see my name on something, they know that there might be sadness, there might be tackling something that not a lot of books do. But I think there would be a lot of worry if I had a deeply unpleasant man. if I had a deeply unpleasant man. And I don't know who would want to spend time trying to write inside the mind of a very misogynist man or a teenage boy who wants to spend most of his time accessing porn. It's quite a sort of upsetting thing to to do and you don't have to do it Jacqueline I tell you what I might do at some stage I I might if I were writing for young adults

or say girls at secondary school I might write about the i think utter stupidity to take photographs of yourself with nothing on and then trust some boy with this image because i can guarantee it's all around a school and it would not be present can we can we on a positive note? Because we've tackled some difficult areas. Let's go back to the enchanted wood. We've no heat, a lot of responsibility onto you, Jacqueline. But can you just recommend at the moment what you are reading for pleasure? Because people would love to know.

Well, I'm sort of reading several books at once. I am rereading David Copperfield because I adore Dickens. And I've read it a couple of times. I want to reread it again. But it's a whacking great tome. And I'm out and about sort of promoting things and seeing people in London. And it's too heavy to lump around with me. But I wanted to reread that because I bought Barbara King's book,

reread that because I brought Barbara King's book which I thought if I read the original then I'll be able to see how she's done it and um uh people who've read it told me it's very very clever so um that's demon copperhead yes yes and you, to do it sort of a poor American, I just think that that's, yeah, I'm not always in favour of rewriting classics, even though I've done it myself. But I think I have I'm forever getting odd pamphlets and booklets and children's stories set in Victorian times because it's my passion and I love to read those um and I dip in out in and out of Henry Mayhew's London Life of the London Poor, something like that, because they are just such stunningly interesting interviews. And then I'm also reading, how do you pronounce her? Nina Stibbe? Stibbe. Yeah, you should say that.

I'm never sure how to say that. I've just gone in with Stibbe because I've heard somebody else say Stibbe, but I might be repeating it wrong. And her latest book is in paperback. And I thought, now, this would be good to go on the train I might be repeating a wrong. And her latest book is in paperback. And I thought, now, this would be good to go on the train. If I'm, you know, whizzing off to some literary festival and long train journey, she will amuse me. And I think she's a stylish writer.

So a mixture. That is Jacqueline Wilson responding there to our, well, actually, I suppose in a way I felt guilty afterwards because it's almost as like I haven't got a clue how to tackle talking to children about porn. So maybe Jacqueline Wilson, you could just take over that job and do it for us. And she said no. Well, she did say no. And I actually don't blame her because it's just an extraordinarily difficult thing to write about, I guess. Anyway. Hot news from Kate, who's on production tonight.

Orgy in Suburbia is our most peaked podcast. Orgy in Soup would be ill-advised, wouldn't it? What do you think people genuinely thought they were going to hear? I think they thought that I was finally going to come clean about my endless attendance at orgies in my part of east west kensington but do you think that uh the audio medium would be the best erotic place to describe an orgy in suburbia um they have started doing erotica audio erotica haven't they that's true actually yeah so it would have been slightly kind of slight diversion for us wouldn't it? A little bit, but I mean, you know.

It's not like we wouldn't give it consideration if I asked. The price is right. But it is a really, really saucy, saucy episode set just outside Slough in a chalet-style house. Here comes Barry. Poor Barry, what's he done to deserve that? I don't know know I think Barry's quite a good porn star name

he saw the pampas grass and he came calling yep is Barry a good porn name I don't know Barry anyway of course now all I can think about are the people I know who call Barry so that's all very awkward let's move on okay

I had a very nice email here it is entitled the bridal So that's all very awkward. Let's move on. OK, I had a very nice email. I'm just trying to... Here it is. Entitled The Bridal. This is because you tried on a new Dyson mask and... What was it? Noise-cancelling headphones and anti-pollution mask operated by an app made by the Dyson brand yesterday in the studio. It's up there on the socials if you want to have a look,

because it was quite funny. And this comes in from Beck, who says, I think Jane was referring to the scold's bridle, because you were... That's right, I was. ...feeling that it was very much the thing that was worn by witches in previous centuries. And Beck says, that was a piece of headgear,

like a scaffold that went around the woman's head that had a wooden part that was put into the mouth to stop them talking and cause them embarrassment and physical pain they couldn't cancel people so they did this instead and that is just a truly terrifying image actually isn't it that's just so horrible well it is horrible and it did happen and i think sometimes that whole witches stuff is mocked or celebrated weirdly on Halloween when it was a truly vile chunk of misogyny in our history

that doesn't really... I mean, it's hideous. Whilst wizards went to number one at Christmas in a kind of comedy, let's just dress up with a big tall hat on way. Please don't say that word, the C word. I can't believe you've said it. We haven't even had our statutory heat wave yet and already we haven't had our heat plume plume supposed to be coming in later in the week we did mention um the amazing story and i was so impressed by the person willing to share it of the mother estranged from her son

and that listener has written back to say it was surreal and sobering to hear my current situation of estrangement read on air. I like how it was housed between light and humorous topics that's life I suppose. I also feel some comfort in hearing that others have found saying the unsayable of estrangement helpful. Just to clarify it has now been five months since my son spoke to me and not a year. But the more time goes on, however, the more I think it will remain frozen this way. I'm trying to give my son an honourable exit from the situation. As such, and in answer to your question, Fi, I have contacted him three times so far. I think from now on, I might aim to get in touch, I know how much Jane

likes that phrase, around every three months. I just want to keep the possibility open without harassing him. I'm not sure, though. It doesn't get any easier, does it, really? I think, for what it's worth, that doing it every three months is a reasonable compromise. I mean, none of it is easy, but I don't think anyone could call that harassment, could they?

No, I'd hope not. No, definitely not. No. And I think just with all of the emails we've had on estrangement, you just so hope that there isn't a finality and that somebody doesn't, let's just be really honest about it, Jane, die before it's too late to have made some kind of

foray back to reconciliation because I'm sure that that is when, well it just is when everything, Ho's interview especially when it's a parent who dies so I suppose that would be my if anybody's listening who's estranged from a parent

do think about the day that you'll wake up and you can no longer be angry with them and show that anger in not speaking to them because I think actually, oh, what a terrible, terrible regret to live with. Well, there is an email here from Melbourne in Australia. I'm in the unenviable situation to experience mother-daughter estrangement from both sides. My mother became estranged from her entire immediate and extended family in early

2003 and disappeared from all our lives, location presumed to be somewhere in Australia. Meanwhile, my eldest daughter withdrew from family members around the time of her marriage in early 2018 and fully estranged from me initially but now her entire extended family. None of us know where she is or what led to this and I'm heartbroken. In mid-2021 I was contacted by a stranger on behalf of my mother. She was going into a care home. We reconnected and she came to live her final year in a local care home however the happy ending was not to be a few weeks ago she passed away but i found out informally as a month before she changed her arrangements so i was not to be informed i understand she felt that we didn't visit enough gosh as for my daughter says this correspondent i live in hope that she's safe and

well we just don't know where she is i'm so sorry to that to that listener um because what a double whammy that is an appalling set of circumstances and well i mean your mother has died now and your daughter surely surely she'll make some contact something has happened in her mind or head that has caused this set of circumstances to to be the way they are but so I just hope she is all right and I hope you're all right too our email is janeandfee at times.radio we genuinely love hearing from you we genuinely read every single email if your email doesn't make it out on this program and you sent it over the last couple of days don't worry because we are going to do some more email specials because they seem to have gone down quite well i will always come

and visit you whatever home you end up in jane what do you think we'll chat about in i don't know what would it be 30 years time in the in the retirement home for the complex and demanding. We were originally in the infirm but impartial. We were going to be in the BBC home for the impartial and infirm. And we've changed it to? We're going to now be in the News UK home for the complex and demanding. OK. Well, I don't want a twin room. Why? Nor do I want a twin room. Why don't you?

Nor do I want a view of the car park. Okay. Well, I don't want either of those two things either. Could we have adjoining rooms? Or maybe just separate floors? Separate floors. I think adjoining rooms with a view of the sea, if possible. And some sort of UN buffer zone between between those rooms um actually i mean we're

laughing old age is no no lark as my grandmother constantly reminded me uh anyway uh that's all to come and so much to look forward to meanwhile i've got to go home and stick the oven on because i need a cottage pie heating up okay right it's all going on a vegan cottage pie of course she says right uh enjoy your evening back soon oven on because I need a cottage pie heating up. Okay. Right, it's all going on. A vegan cottage pie, of course, she says hurriedly. Right, enjoy your evening. Back soon. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so

of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive.

Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at 3 o'clock Monday until Thursday every week, and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us, and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.