Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Let's hear it for the dormice (with Pam Ayres)

Episode Date: March 19, 2026

Is there a support group for kitchen roll addicts? Why hasn't Fi ventured to Germany? And do the alpha-males of the manosphere carry sanitary products in their man-bags? Jane and Fi ponder life's biggest questions in today's episode. Plus, Jane speaks to author and poet, Pam Ayres, about her new children's book 'Dandy the Dormouse'. Check out our YouTube channel here: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producers: Hannah Quinn and Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Now, welcome, welcome, welcome. We weren't bitching, we were gossip. We weren't even gossiping. We were just trying to put two and two together to make 645. It's a glorious sunny day here in London town. It's a Thursday. I've had a mini timetam. Things couldn't get me better. You've never had a timetam before.

No, I think today is my first timetam. Well, somebody has got a mega pack of mini timetams and very kindly left it on the chocolate shelf. Well, it's our Antipodean colleague, isn't it? Which one? Kea. Oh, is it? And is it her birthday?

I don't know. Is it Keir's birthday? No, she's just come back from Australia. Oh, okay. That was Hannah. Well, she's... She's gifted us. I think they probably sell them in duty-free, don't they?

You can take a little bit of Australia back home with you and biscuit form. But they are gorgeous. They are our go-to biscuit of choice in our household. Oh, no. Because I must have it, they've got a hint of the penguin, and I was never a fan. They've got a hint of the old penguin about them, but they're more chocolatey than a penguin. can't call a penguin a chocolate anymore, can you? Because it's mostly vegetable oil. But there is

something about the Tim Tam, which is very, very satisfying. I congratulate Australia on its mid-morning chocolate choice. Well done, Australia. And you mentioned penguins. I'm going to bring up the dormouse, which allows me to mention that our guest today, God, that was terrible. So I've only just realised that that was a link. Our guest today was due to be Monti Donne. I think we've made quite a lot of it yesterday, didn't we? You did. Anyways, he can't do it. So,

we've shoehorned in and water replacement and it's just, we're so lucky, it's Pamirs. So, do you know what, just to avoid Pamirs sounding like she's been booked because, you know, MontiDong couldn't make it, she was always going to, she was always on the slate for today. I have never, ever, and never would turn down the opportunity.

to interview Pam Ayres. And she's got a new book out. It's for the kiddies. It's about the Dormouse. And did you know, Fee, and I'm hoping that the answer to this is no, that they're one of Britain's rarest mammals, Dormice. I didn't know that, Jane.

Would you like to hazard a guess at the UK population of Dormice? 23. 45,000. Oh. But they are plunging. No, the population is plunging. It's because of their habitat is being destroyed. Which is a shame, isn't it?

Well, it is, and they're tiny little things, aren't they? Little wee things. Yeah. So let's hear it for them. And let's hear it for Pam, and you'll hear more from her later. We had two Russian dormice as pets once when the kids were very young. Okay. They were so sweet. They're very, very pretty little things.

And they lived in a cage. We did have cats at the time, so we were always very careful about the cage. But the cage got left, and I won't say who by, on top of, a counter overnight and the cats just bothered it until it came off the counter and obviously it pinged open and we think

the dormice escaped because there was no evidence that they hadn't if you know what I mean. Let's go with that then yeah and because cats do bring the trophy back to you don't they? Usually yeah because they want to get a prize. I say like I know. Doris never caught anything.

I think she might have got a fly once. Okay well that's a good cat Oh, she's not bothering anybody. Yeah, the killing nature of cats is troublesome, isn't it? So anyway, we just presume that the dormice escaped, and they were a boy and a girl dormice as far as we know. I don't know how easy it is the sex of dormice? Dormouse.

We can ask Pam. So I like to think that somewhere around the Hackley environment, there's a little community of dormice who survived because of the era that was made in domesticity. There would have been plenty to eat around our house, the floorboards. Our house is immaculate. You've got to be careful here.

Ready for sale. Absolutely immaculate. Nothing wrong with it at all. It's gorgeous. You've got to just bear this in mind, with please sake. I came downstairs this morning. I'm worried for you.

The sink was blocked at the coat. I fell down. Right. I thought, God, I've got very bad energy today. No, the sink was blocked. It's completely my. Fox. I fried a little bit of some little bacony bits

last night to add to a salad and I did the terrible thing and I didn't realise I'd done it obviously until this morning when the sink was brought I just, I rinsed them under the tap, of course that's absolutely daft. You shouldn't be putting animal fat down the sink, should you? Nancy Burtwistle would have you. I know, well I've paid the price

I was there with my you bend. Just tell you know genuinely I've never made an even half decent salad. So what was in your salad? So our salad consisted of some cut-up tomatoes, a can of sweet corn, some brown rice, basil, bacony bits, a little bit of Worcester sauce. Worcester sauce? Yeah, salt and pepper. And you see, the bacony bits, I defy, and apologies to vegetarians, you can go your own way with your faken.

And I know it's very good these days. But the bacony bits just make it moreish. They just do. Are we talking about salt on? Yeah. I'm just asking. Jane, we are talking lardons. It's Lardons we're talking about.

It's just sometimes I love this job so much because who would have thought that one day we would be talking Lardons. Fie, I love this job so much too. Okay, but that's a good time. I really mean it when I say I wish I just can't conjure up. I just think, oh, I'll stick a few tomatoes and a bit of lettuce and hope for the. best. Shove some olive or and a bit of lemon juice. It doesn't really. No, it just doesn't. It just doesn't

work. I think the secret to a good salad for us anyway is just something, something salty. In the mix. In the mix. So feta or there's a very nice smoked tofu that can do the same thing or a little bit of bacon. Well, it's just wonderful. Thank you. I'm going to try that. But if you're any good with a U-Bend, you pop over at the weekend, clear it out for me. If I wasn't busy, you know I'd be there. Now look, another national institution has made contact. This time it's the Natural History Museum. We got listeners everywhere.

It's just extraordinary. We wanted to get in touch from the Natural History Museum after the confusion in Tuesday's episode. I mean, look, there's confusion in every episode. But that bit of confusion was about whether or not the Natural History Museum does sleepovers. And fee, they do. They do.

Over the last 16 years, we've held over 250 of them. Families love. the opportunity to explore the museum when it's closed to the public, to learn directly from our museum scientist, and to sleep under the 25 metre skeleton of Hope the Blue Whale. Gosh. Jane and Fear, if you're worried you've missed the chance, now your kids are older, we also do dino snores for grown-up.

Grown-hots. Shall we? God. Should we do team-building night out? As well as exploring the empty museum, adults can enjoy a three-course meal, a bar, stand-up comedy, late-night movie marathon, and a yoga class the next morning with a cooked breakfast.

Well, hats off to the Natural History Museum. That sounds epic. It does, actually, doesn't it? I mean, I'd probably leave the yoga, and I'd want to turn in at my normal time, so you can leave your late-night movies for the other people. And are they showing night at the museum? Well, I imagine they probably would.

What else would be appropriate to show last thing at night in the Natural History Museum? I suppose all the Jurassic parks. Oh yeah. Many don't know, says our correspondent, the Natural History Museum, that as well as being a world-famous visitor attraction, we are also a leading research centre

with over 400 scientists working to solve some of the planet's biggest challenges. I didn't know that. So thank you. You're doing a good job down there at the museum. Profits from our after-hour programmes are reinvested into our museum's charitable mission, including this scientific work.

Well, brilliant. Thank you very much for emailing that building. I'd love to hear from anyone who's been to one of those sleepovers. So I imagine with the kids' ones, and we did do one, but it wasn't at the Natural History Museum. I think it was at the British Museum. And I mean, you know, the kids absolutely love it because they're just on the floor with sleeping bags

and all of that kind of stuff. But for the adults, is it slightly different? Or is it a shared sleeping experience? Could the museum write back and let us know what special? I mean, I'd have to bring my own pillow from home. You would. you'd need your own blow-up mattress. Oh, God.

And Butler. And indeed, overnight assistance. Gerard would be accompanied, Jane. He reverses out of a room bowing three times, and he's very good at it. He is good. This is Normandy calling. Sean in Southern Trains-Willing, Catrum. Please don't fret.

My wife and I arrived safely in France. We've enjoyed our time here, which has included in afternoon, watching graceful harness racing horses trotting round the car hippodrome. Blimey. I know. Well done. A side trip to Rouen left us completely church, abbey and cathedraled out. I'm not surprised it's a big one, isn't it? That's Joan of Arc, isn't it? It is, and it's massive, massive, massive,

great big beast of a cathedral. So we went to the seaside yesterday. There's nothing like a trip to a Normandy beach to put my lightweight tail of a Channel ferry crossing. We were moved by it, Sean, in slightly inclement weather into perspective. Do you say inclement or inclement? Inclement. Sorry, I got that wrong then. In slightly inclement. You say it's inclement. Whether into perspective, feeling suitably chastened.

We're now home, we're bound under blue skies on a sea that's as smooth as the proverbial milk pond. Thank you for your concern. And it's a beautiful, it's a lovely picture. You've got the picture out of the front of the ferry. I know that's the wrong terminology. And then you have got horse racing. But if I may say so, Sean, it just, that doesn't look very. graceful does it it's like a chariot attached to the back of a big horse um I agree I

don't think it looks graceful as it looks like bloody hard work but maybe that's just the angle yeah for both man and horse so I mean Sean is now such a fixture he's getting emails about his travels and this is one from Liz I really hope Sean got to France don't worry he's not only did he get there he got back but if anybody wants to test their sea legs, try a crossing to the beautiful Isles of Silly on, now this, I hope it's pronounced the Sillonian, it would be, wouldn't it, the Sillonian. We did this some years ago with our then eight-year-old and our nine-month-old puppy. We sat on deck and I was a bit puzzled by the little plastic bags and the prominent bins, but within an hour of leaving Penzance, I was running my

corner of the deck like Florence Nightingale, handing out and binning sick bags. My husband and daughter was stricken. So was the dog and most of the other passengers. I only kept it together by looking at the horizon. That's the tip, isn't it? If you do feel seasick. Yeah, stare at one dot on the horizon. And just keep it there. Yeah. As we rounded

land's end, the sea just heaved in all directions. It's only two hours, 45 minutes, crossing to St Mary's. I didn't know it was that far. Are the silly hours really that far from the UK mainland? I've never been, Jane. I haven't either. And I felt that roeful.

motion for at least the day after. The return journey was worse and the ship's bell told several times as we pitched in the Atlantic. Somebody later told me the trick is actually to go to the lower decks and just lie flat. Needless to say, the Isles of Silly are beautiful. We had a great time and we all agreed it was worth the ordeal. I understand the Selonian has a flat hull so it's able to get into the harbour at St Mary's and this can make the crossing a bit rough. Best wish is Liz. I'm afraid, although I believe every word, you've not done a lot for my ambition to visit the city. I think you can fly.

Can one fly? Okay, great. I'll get Gerard onto it. Yes, well, yes. I'll see if he can use his computer. He doesn't mind. Because like Nigel Farage, I can't do computers. I couldn't believe he got away with saying that, by the way.

I don't think he will get away with saying that and other things as we approach an election. Yes, indeed. Let's hope that's case. Now, can we just say hello again to our correspondent who attended the saga holiday at the youthful end of the saga holiday? And we cannot make that clearer, can we? We can't make that clear. And we will never reveal the identity of the celebrity who is involved in a slightly higher end of the age range on the saga holiday. But our correspondent says... Well, actually, can I just mention regular correspondent, Blin, who says...

He wants to guess the identity. And he has. And he has. So you have. Okay? Press on. Yeah. And just keep it under your hat.

Can I tell no one? So our correspondent says, yes, we are very young and we didn't need the handrails on the cruise. And for you're exactly right, their hair accessories matched every day too. I noticed that. We didn't really change for dinner either.

Couldn't be asked. And I certainly don't have enough clothes. So that's cleared up a couple of good things here. And then we do need to move on to because we have been inundated with people who had exactly the same experience at puberty as you had where your straight hair went curly. Yes. So this comes in from Caroline.

Hello ladies, I like Jane, started out with dead straight hair which went curly at puberty. My twin sister, Lynn, got the curly hair from the outset. How spooky is that? It's really weird. I, like Fee, identify as a straight-haired person. My hair dry is a non-negotiable part of my life. So Caroline, is that, do you think that is to do with being a twin and just wanting to have a point of difference between you?

And did you get annoyed when your hair went curly and was therefore the same as your twin sisters? We just need more on that. Yeah, we do. Catherine comes in listening to your latest podcast. You mentioned your hair turning curly only at puberty. It made me laugh. It's good to know I'm not the only one.

I'd always had short hair, often mistaken for a little boy, but it was straight with little frizzy bits near the... years. Then at age 11 or 12, it turned curly. I still kept it short fearing it would grow out rather than down. That can happen, aren't it? It's a real shame I left it so late. Long curly hair was all the rage in the 80s with my peers spending a fortune on perms, thanks to Kylie Minogan neighbours. I missed my one and only chance to be on trend. A few years ago, a friend straightened my hair just to see what it would be like. I look like Olive from on the buses. Not a look I want to repeat. I'm on. I'm on. Olive had really straightened.

her. Yes. Yes. So a friend straightened her hair. Oh, I see. And it made her look like Olive from on the buses. And Olive from on the buses, I mean, it's so sexist, but they had to keep stopping the bus because she needed the loo. I remember that. Yeah. Do you remember that? Well, I didn't, I didn't watch very... It was on ITV.

Yeah, I didn't watch very many on the buses, because I found, actually found it as, I don't know why, I found a slightly disturbing comedy. Well, it wasn't, it was so, so, 70s. It was sexist, it was, it was Reg, I'm a man called Reg Jvani. Yes, and wasn't he a bit...

Oh, he was a real old creep. He was, yes, and just a bit... Yes, I was going to say handsy. Bit handsy. We're not the actor. We're talking about the character. We don't know about the actor, but the character, certainly. Yeah.

Fun times. So this has happened to so, so many of you, and we'd very much like to hear a few more things. I want to just give a mention to Philippa, who says I had a similar thing with possible hormones and menopause all my life. I've had longed straight hair, which I found quite boring. I longed for something. they used to have called a demi-wave.

However, I never had one nor anything else. Imagine my surprise when in the last 10 years or so if I don't dry my hair, it now goes totally wavy. I now have a choice of straight or waves. Looking back, I suppose it was about age 52 when it started. So prime menopause years. Well, I mean, every cloud has a silver lining.

Gosh, there's all sorts of things happening with hair, aren't there in hormone? Yes, isn't that extraordinary? Deleth chips in. Jane, it happened to me too, dead straight hair until I hit puberty, and then I had curly hair. and then when my daughter, I had my daughter, my hair went straight again.

Wow. Okay, so that's another twist. Just hit 50, and I'd give anything for a bit of life and body in my hair. I have to say, I thought it was a genetic quirk. My mother dined off telling everybody that she'd had beautiful curly hair until I was born, and then it disappeared, along with the rest of her life, apparently. Well, sometimes mothers, I mean, they don't spare you the details, and it sounds to me, Delitz, like your mum.

Made no bones about it. You'd absolutely ruined her. I'm sure she didn't mean it. So that's very interesting, isn't it, that curly hair can go straight? I don't know why I always assumed that that was a far harder journey. Well, clearly not.

No, clearly not. It's hormones, it's jeans, it's... I mean, not denim jeans, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's just, yeah, well, look, it's obviously a wider debate. Isn't it? People must be involved. Lots of people say that, you know,

if you keep dyeing your hair, as you and I do. There is, when you stop dyeing your hair, you are often unbelievably surprised with the direction that your hair chooses to take without all the chemicals on it. Also, I think after you've had chemo, your hair, when it grows back.

It often has a curve. Yeah, it can be very different. Yeah. So, I mean, let us know. Chip in on this, because it's obviously an yet another under-explored area of our daily lives. I tell you've got Pam's book there. Before you go,

into the interview with her, will you read some of her dormouse to us? Because it's always, she always makes me laugh. The thing is, it's a poem. Yes, exactly. I know, but yes, if I started it, people would be thinking, well, I'd like to hear the end. Oh, okay. You wouldn't be able to do just a stanza. Well, I will with Pam, if you don't mind, private time. Which people can hear later. Well, no, shall I read the beginning? Well, can I just explain the notion of our job?

So although we do have conversations with people, they're broadcast, Jane. They heard by other people. They are. And the aim is to make them entertaining for other people. Here we go, though. Okay. And it's worth saying that Pam writes poetry to be read. Okay, this is a lovely, beautifully illustrated children's book.

Hello, I am a Dormouse, and Dandy is my name. I'm a different kind of mouse. We're not all the same. Lovely. Okay. Well, I'll borrow that later. Now, according to the facts and figures provided for me by our colleague, Could you name the only poet who has outsold Pamirs in this country?

Oh, I wouldn't be able to... No, it's fascinating, it's absolutely fascinating. I don't know. I mean, is it one of the greats, John Betchman? No. Richard Stilgo? No, it's Ted Hughes. And I know that for a lot of feminists,

Ted Hughes is... Complicated. Carries a certain weight, doesn't he? Yeah. So lots of you will be familiar with all the stories about Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath. And anyway, Sylvia Plath's poetry is so spare and haunting, I think, actually. And I know Ted Hughes is also hugely gifted.

But anyway, there's quite a lot in all that, isn't there? But I thought it was really interesting. It was the only person who, frankly, shifted more copies than Pammers. So I did read something, I think years ago I interviewed Pammers on Saturday Live and she had embarked on a tour so this would have been 20 years ago,

maybe a little bit less. And she basically was one of the first people I'd ever come across who just did it all herself because she felt a little bit not included in the world of the celebrity and the showbiz and whatever. So she had built her own website, she was sorting out her own tour I think her husband at the time

I don't know whether... Still married. Still married, still alive was kind of what I was trying not to be offensive about. Well, I don't want to have been. No, just in case that had happened. And he was in charge of everything and I just remember thinking, wow, and she had sold out her tour

faster than anybody else who was on the circuit at the time. And she was just doing it all herself. And it was a real kind of eye-opener as to how people were going to be able to exist very successfully within their own circle of popularity. They didn't need to be actually on radio fall or promoted by the big promoters or part of a great big management company or on ITV.

She was just absolutely knocking it out the park by doing it herself. And I mean in that respect, business-wise, was absolutely ahead of her time. I think there's a massive gulf, and there always has been, between people who are liked and people who are talked about in what you might call the RT press and the style mags and online and promoted by all the right people and loved by all the right people.

There's a whole other circuit of people who are genuinely loved by their people who will pay any amount of money to see them and enjoy what they do. Yes, and it's often in that world of entertainment, isn't it? whether you're right. It's a bit oil and water, isn't it? I think it is. I mean, there are comedians who are wildly successful,

who frankly I would hate. I know I would hate. But they, and they don't get on television because frankly, their material is... Well, Jim Davidson wouldn't get on now, but he did it at the time, didn't they? There are others. There's some really, apparently, wildly successful comedians

who operate in that sort of environment that I just don't know anything about. I just know they exist. Yeah. They're called Roy, aren't they? Roy? They're all called Roy. No, I know exactly what you mean

I know exactly what you do. There's that thing, what do they do where you, it's called, where you just interact with the crowd. You do what's like, I think it's called crowdwork or something where you just, you're... Just pick on people in the front, right, but it's very, very successful. God, I'm really out of my depth there.

Well, that's what comedians now put up online, isn't it? So they don't give away any of their actual show. Yeah. So the only bit you'll see is, you know, if you get up to go for a wee, half, way through and you get absolutely barriced. Yeah. I Stuart Lee.

What was I going to say? Oh yes, this is from Jane. I hate birthday and anniversary surprises, she says. With our 30th anniversary looming, my husband entered the room with a map. He asked me to throw a dart into the map and said, we'll go there to celebrate. Blimey. I know. Well, I threw the dart and we're spending two weeks behind the city, says Jane. That's good.

Mum. You could be a comedian. She doesn't need to go anywhere because she's in Devon. Just stay where you are. Lovely. Oh, but you must want to get out of Devon sometimes. Come on, you must get to the point where you just, you cannot be tempted by another cream tea. God.

And traffic jam. I like the idea of a cream tea, but I never enjoy them. It's not awful. No. We're together on that. Well, it's just all the glutons and it's all the dairies and, You know, I mean, never have you been so, so keen to see a cucumber as halfway through a cream tea in an expensive hotel.

It just becomes all claggy. It does, is it? Shall we do Can Women Be Camp? Go on. Rachel says, when I did my brief stint as a stand-up comic in London back in the 90s, we need to know more, Rachel. Please do tell us more about that, yeah. I was surprised when a work colleague saw my act and described it as Camp.

As far as I saw it, I was just talking. how women do about topics that we're interested in. Then again, I am a no-nonsense northern woman who's got strong opinions on domestic matters and I freely share stories about ailments. My material went down particularly well with gay men and it still fills me with a warm glow when I remember reducing a couple of men in the front road

to fits of giggles, which went on for so long that I couldn't tell my next joke. In the end, I firmly suggested they might want to calm down a bit which just made them laugh even more. Looking back, I think that, if it had been a gay male comic or a man in drag saying that, it would have come across as camp. As an exercise, I've been imagining various Victoria Wood characters

as men instead of women, and they score very highly on the campometer. Yeah, that would be right, I guess, yeah. I think Victoria Wood did do a lot of camp humour. Yes. I mean, the whole acorn antiques. It is very... It is very... Even I understand that that's camp.

Regarding domestic matters, I do have some burning questions about thesis and... sponges, cloths and tea towels, and now she coats without kitchen roll. But I will leave them for another time. I didn't know you did cope without kitchen roll. Yeah, I don't have kitchen roll. Don't you? No. I mean, I have asked myself over the years, how did we cope before it was invented? And people did. But now I'd panic if I don't have it either. Yeah, my sister doesn't have it either. We're a little gang of two. Well, I don't think there's anything that can't be mopped up if it's on the floor with a bit of newspaper. And otherwise, I'd just chuck all the cloths in a hot wash.

and a 90 degree hot wash. But how long does the cloth stay in use? Well, I suppose a couple of, no longer than a couple of days. But what are you using all of your kitchen roll for? Well, Dora had a little sick up this morning, so it was used for that. Okay.

And mopping down the surfaces with my special sprays. Okay. But why wouldn't you just use a nice wet, cloth for that. I suppose because I think I'm saving the washing machine, the hassle of cleaning the cloths. And you may well be right. I don't know who's right, who's wrong? Not the controversy.

Yeah, the carbonometer on that. You may well come out on top. Ali just has a bit of travel news. It was lovely to hear last week from Katia Adler, but please don't tell everybody how great Germany is. It is our favourite European country, she says. Better for vegetarians

than France or Spain. France calls something of spinach key and France calls something a spinach... He can't say that. France calls something a spinach quiche. And don't mention it's got ham in it! There are devils over there, aren't they? There's beautiful countryside in Germany,

the Alps, the Black Forest, lakes, amazing history and culture. And yes, Germany has many years of history other than 1933 to 1945. We're thinking about Heidelberg this year. It looks beautiful, but please don't tell people about that either. We're always envious of their efficient railways, school system, etc.

But our friends do assure us that there's plenty to complain about. You are right and Kachia was right too, Ali. Germany is beautiful and quite possibly we should go there more often, I think, actually. And I think perhaps we restrict ourselves to popping to Berlin to do all the museums and stuff. And I mean, I went on my German exchange when I was 15. And it was beautiful. The part of Germany I went to was quite close to Dusseldorf. And I thought it was absolutely lovely.

Really lovely. I've never been to Berlin. Haven't you? No. Have you been anywhere else in Germany? No. She hasn't been to Germany. She doesn't use kitchen roll.

What a lot. What a lot we're finding out today. But we are going for our summer holiday to Austria. Well, that's close to Germany. It is, but it's not Germany. Can I just do the second part of Ali's email? Just to hark back to your previous episode, I'm fully with you in your view of life in the UAE,

United Arab Emirates. It's not just gay and trans rights that are non-existent. The women in the UAE don't have full rights in marriage and divorce or in regards to their children. Overseas workers have died building those shiny buildings. British immigrants may think they're living a lovely life, but you must have to shut your eyes to some of the realities of life around you. And mostly I get mad when people moan about Britain while over there avoiding taxes. It is the sign of a civilised society that we pay taxes and we should be glad to do it. A crazy idea, I know. So, Ali, thank you for that. I mean, I don't know whether or not you've got experience of living in the United Arab Emirates.

I think the point about marriage and divorce is actually a very, very good one to make because the children of divorce in the UAE often stay with the man who has rights over them and the women, they really cease to have rights over their children, which must cause considerable pay. It would be no better if it was completely the other way round. I'm not saying that at all, but I have heard too many stories actually about the pain caused by that patriarchy with regard to kids. And especially if you've married into a family who have citizenship in the UAE and you don't, I think that becomes unbelievably difficult. It's a very sort of pompous point.

But I mean, I've always thought that if you vote and you pay tax, you're allowed to moat. Yeah, no, I'm with you on that. But cough up, don't complain about doing it, and always turn out to vote because then whatever happens, at least you know, you've made your opinions. You've got involved, and you can slag off the result as much as you like.

Yeah, and also we are in a right old pickle in this country, Jane, because we've adopted a mindset of paying fewer and fewer taxes and regarding taxation on the individual is a really, really bad thing. and we're not a big enough country with enough stuff under the ground in order to have some kind of sovereign wealth fund that means that we don't have to pay tax. You know, tax is one of the great big prongs underneath this country, isn't it? And I know that growth could be better and all that kind of stuff.

But, you know, we do need to pay our taxes here. It's a bit mad to believe that a successful government, often elected on the promise of lowering taxation almost always can deliver that change when was the last time a government was elected promising to raise taxes no well then they're not but but they do we're a bit tough don't we as a population really

we do get the politicians we deserve it is an equation that we've all just got to get a bit of a grasp of haven't we I just wanted to mention Claire who says I'm a bit behind but just listened to a couple of episodes where you discussed families cohabiting my mum finds herself in a situation of having to hire a live-in carer to deal with my bed-bound father. Now, myself and my siblings can't offer full-time caring services because of geography, our own lives, children, etc. So to be honest,

it's either a care home or live-in carers. We have been sent CVs of potential carers. And now she has to decide who she might want to live with. And it's daunting. I can imagine that really would be daunting. But it's not family, so maybe paid strangers will be easier to live with. And they do six weeks and then change. Maybe coming back, maybe not. I look at CVs and say, oh, the younger man sounds great. She says, oh, I don't know about a male carer and leans towards the lady who likes doing jigsaws. I'm sure they're all wonderful, professional and understanding. They're also doing a job I can't do and I don't want to do. Claire, thank you. I think that's very honest. And I do feel for you and for your family situation and for your mum

and I think making that decision it's an area of sort of cohabitation that we haven't talked about before so I'd be very interested to hear from people who are going through something similar or have been through it because it's tough trying to sort all that stuff out isn't it? Very much so, very much so

we've got so many emails about the manor sphere have you finished the Louie through I saw it yes documentary shall we save those till next week and we will regroup and we will give our verdict on what we think. At some points, we laughed out loud from the sofa at the preposterous, preposterous nature

of some of the absolute pillocks involved in that programme. There was one moment where one of the absolute idiots looked around from his balcony in Miami and declared that no women had been involved in the building of the city at all. I mean, literally... That's a bit the way we just laughed. It's just like, you're so... You're so thick.

No, no, I like the guy who thought that your child could carry the DNA of any... This is a woman, any man you'd ever slept with. Yep, because the previous... Or the residue sperm would shape your future children. I'd hate to bring this to you, mate, but they die really quickly. Oh, sperm don't last. They don't last at all. They've got no staying power, mate.

Not at all. Absolutely none. So, look, let's talk about it. some more and I mean there's a lot of very very serious stuff to say about that well there is but you know what we can also just laugh at the power of mockery yeah don't underestimate it ever these is they they are pillocks they are complete pillocks jane complete pillows god love them anyway do what i'd quite like to do i might do just a little transcript of some of the things that they were saying and then i might just get you to read those out or maybe hannah could do some reading out loud

or the lovely eve get pam airs to do it yeah and we would just listen to those words delivered in a different voice. I also think that that might be quite a useful thing that we could do with Donald Trump at the moment. If we take some of his more outrageous speeches, which are just the ones he does on a daily basis, and get them voiced up by other people. We might be able to hear the true madness that's going on there. You've said the word madness. And let's just own the fact that when we keep saying this, but we will never stop saying it, we've always said he was mad. And now more and more people coming over to our side are getting on board. And it's not about us being...

No! ...being right. But, you know, I think the Emperor's new clothes have just never been worn as much as they have been worn around that, gentleman. So maybe those are fun times ahead. We'll voice up words by men, and we'll get them spoken by women,

and we'll see whether or not the meaning is still there. And I might just spend some of the weekend as a member of the Manosphere wearing extra tight clothing and with a very small over the shoulder man bag with me at all times. What do you think they've got in the cross-body bag? They've got some tampons?

I don't know what they've got in. Sanitary towels and some neuropham. Well, perhaps, or some willie wipes or something, I don't know. Pam Ayres, MBE, joins us now on a beautiful spring morning, which would move even the worst of us to poetry, Pam. It must do something for you this sort of weather. It's very uplifting, certainly. I haven't been moved to poetry so far

but it's certainly glorious to just feel the spring in the air and see the buds fattening and all the nice things that are going on Yeah, I mean in your part of the world you are a resident of Gloucestershire Yes Yeah and it is beautiful

Is it the Cotswolds? How would you define? We are in the Cotswolds, yes But you were in the Cotswolds before the Cotswolds before it became the height of fashion Yes, it's very fashionable now. I'm not sure that's a good thing,

but it is a gorgeous place to live, and we're so lucky. What have you seen just in the last couple of days that give us hope of a glorious summer? Well, quite a lot, because I've spent an unwise amount of money in 2019 on 22 acres of land to manage for wildlife because I hate the fact that it has declined so much

from when I was a child. as when I was a child you were surrounded by wildlife and there were voles along every brook and you could go and catch roach and dace and trout and there were thousands of swifts and swallows and dozens of hedgehogs and I've seen it all go and it's heartbreaking to me and so anyway I bought this piece of land

and we've dug a big pond and we've put up lots of owl boxes and bat boxes and it's quite extraordinarily what has flocked in Now it might not be very interesting to everybody But I've got so many toads now in the pond And I walked around the edges of the pond And counted 75 toads All piggybacking and getting on with breeding

And it's lovely because I don't know where they've come from I never see a toad at other times of the year How would I recognise a toad as opposed to a frog? They're warty They have postules on their skin Which are toxic actually So it's best not to pick them up and fondle them should you be tempted.

But, you know, they're part of the chain of wildlife. And I don't know where they were. But suddenly this time of year, they all flock into my pond, and I love it. And also the other day I was there, and there's a lovely pair of green woodpeckers that go swooping across the field. And there are hares. So this time of year, they go racing madly across a field.

And they're a little muntjacks, which don't really belong here, but they're quite sweet. They're sweet. They are sweet. but people get very angry with those things, don't they? I know, but well, they're here now, aren't they? So we're sort of stuck with them. Are they destructive?

I don't think, we've planted a lot of trees, a lot of native trees, but I don't think they're as harmful to trees as the fallow deer and the bigger deer that can reach up higher. But I'm very lucky because I have got that piece of land and so I get to see all these lovely things and I sit quietly and just watch. and it's very good for the soul. Now, your book, your new book, which is out today,

is four children aged between three and seven. Yes. And it's about the Dormouse. Now, the Dormouse is a, am I correct in saying it's a British mammal? Yes. And you mentioned the chain. Where is the Dormouse's place in the chain? Well, disappearing, really.

Right. They used to be very common. They're a native mammal. they live up in trees which perhaps people don't realise you don't see them very often because the clue is in the name, dormouse, they sleep for long, long periods for months, they hibernate

and also they live up in the trees and they eat berries and caterpillars and nuts and they're generally scavenging up there but you don't see them very much. They've lost habitat which is why they've disappeared but they're endearing little animals and I've been greatly helped by the Woodland Trust and a lovely man called Matt Parkin

who showed me around his woodland that he looks after in Exmoor and there they have little sooty traps where they put this kind of suit on paper and then the dormouse walks through and leaves little footprints and so you can see if they've been there or not And also they had a little pregnant dormouse that he showed us. And it was the dearest little thing.

What did it look like? Door mouse with a fat tummy, asleep, because they sleep most of the time. So I've had a lot of help from the Woodland Trust. But they are diminishing, which is sad, because, again, they're part of the chain of wildlife. And it's all losing its habitat. So the habitat that they would, you say they're up trees,

but they would also have lived in what, in like brambly type areas? Yes, but they do live up in the canopy of trees, which is unusual for a mouse. Right. And the other unusual thing about dormites is that they've got furry tails because most mice have got scaly tails.

You know, the house mouse has got a scale. Well, that's why they're frightening because of the scaly tails. But we'd like a dormouse if we saw one. A dormouse has got a lovely, fluffy tail. Yeah, so it's... was given the opportunity by Macmillan children's books to write about four native creatures of my choice. And the dormouse is suffering and disappearing.

So I thought the last book in the series, there's one about an otter, one about an owl, one about a hare, and this last one is about the dormouse. And I just thought they're darling little creatures that deserved a mention. And I've spoken to various schools. And so it's lovely how interested the children, are and how I haven't really spent a lot of time talking to children.

I always thought I wasn't very good at it. But I found with this series of books about wildlife, if you sit on the floor with the children and say, anybody's seen an owl? You get all these maize in responses of when they've seen them and what they sound like and you get impersonations. It's been magical. Oh, that's lovely.

And this book is, I have to say, it's wonderfully illustrated. You could perch a child on your knee. cuddle up and really get absorbed in this. And there's plenty to talk about, isn't that? There is. The illustrator is a lady called Nicola O'Buron and she's tremendous and I love these books. I mean I've worked very hard to make the rhyming story accurate and entertaining but to pair it with her illustrations has been a genius stroke by Macmillan I think.

I didn't know Nicola we were put together by Macmillan and I think it was. works so well. There's so much detail and you can point out things in the pictures. There's so much to look at. They're lovely little books. Well, they're quite big books really. They're big books and I think that they're actually quite bold and

it just feels an adventure, a cozy adventure. Yes, good. Can you just read the first page, a couple of pages? Well, you have to imagine I'm a dormouse. Hello, I am a dormouse and Dandy is my name. I'm a

different kind of mouse. We are not all the same. Some mice live in houses, but I'm not one of these, for I'm a little dormouse, and I like to live in trees. Door mouse is a funny name. It means to go to sleep. I hibernate in winter in a hidden leafy heap. So if you're walking quietly upon the forest floor and listen very carefully, you might hear me snore. I'm a little bit of a little bit of I'm a hazel dormouse, and a hazel is a nut. Hazels are my favourite food. I love to eat them, but caterpillars, flowers, bugs and fruit are tasty too, especially blackberries, which can turn my whiskers blue.

Fantastic. I'm immediately, I'm transported, but I'm also just lulled into a sense of security. Because, Pam, I won't need to tell you, the world is a terrifying place. at the moment. Yes, I know. And I wonder whether you have ever, have you ever been moved to poetry by a current event or by topical matters, or is that not you? Well, I snipe from the sidelines on Twitter, as it used to be. And I didn't ever want to go on Twitter or X as it is now, because I didn't see the point. But what it's actually given me the opportunity to do is comment on topical things. So I've had a few swipes. at Donald Trump and tax and just topical things.

So I do have a bit of fun with it, but not in an ominous way and not in a serious political way. I have a bit of fun with current events, but there isn't much to have fun with now. Not right now. I mean, the thing about Trump, there are many things about Trump. His name, it's got to be good for a rhyme. Well, the last swipe I took at Donald Trump was about when he said,

In order to overcome COVID, you should inject yourself with bleach. And I thought that was so hysterical. I thought I must have a go at that. So that was good fun. But I don't comment seriously on politics. I think other people are much better place to do that than me. I try and make people smile. And you have made people smile for,

I was trying to work out how long you've been in the public consciousness and I don't in any way offensive. No, no, not at all. But you started on a show that I can well recall Opportunity Knox. Yes, I did. And actually I started before that on Radio Oxford, on BBC Radio Oxford, and I like to give them a mention because they were so supportive when I had no confidence. So you would have been in your, how old were you? I was about 27.

Right. And you were a local resident and they gave you a chance? Yeah, they used to come around the folk clubs recording for the folk programme. And I used to play my mother's ukulele and my guitar and throw in an old. jokey poem. And that's what they liked. And they asked me to write a poem to perform weekly on Radio Oxford. And I was petrified, but they gave me a deadline of six months because I didn't know if I could write to a deadline. And they were terrific. And as a result of that, I started to write more of this kind of poetry. I hadn't done it before. And your household growing up was there was six of you. Yeah. Well, no,

I've got, I had four brothers and a sister, yes, and then mum and dad so there were eight of us stuffed in our house. Six children. Yes, yes. You're the youngest? I'm the youngest, yeah. Okay. And would it be fair to say it was, you weren't members of the artistic

community, were you? No, not at all. I mean, I loved writing. I adored writing. I didn't ever think about poetry. I liked writing in stories and anything where I could use, and I imagine. but it was the poems that caught people's attention and so I obliged. Yes.

No, you're absolutely right. I mean, we had no books. We had two books in our house. One was called Character from the Face, which was a series of photographs of people's facial features, like noses and eyes and ears and such like. And you were supposed to be able to read from those photographs what kind of a person they were, whether they were a cad,

or could be trusted. Oh, was that useful? No, it was a load of rubbish. And there was another horrible book we had. I don't know where it came from. Somebody must have given it to us about birds, but the birds had all been given characters, like there was a sparrow that spoke in horrible cockney language.

I mean, we had two books, and they were both horrible. So no, and the great saving thing for me was at our school, we had a little library. It was announced that we now had a library. And I went along, when I was about 9 or 10, I suppose, and the teacher gave me two books. She gave me Wish for a Pony by Monica Edwards, and she gave me Jess William by Richmore Crompton.

And those two books were a revelation. So you were transported by those books in a way that your books now transport very young children? Well, I hope so. Isn't that a lovely, that's sort of going full circle, isn't it? I hope children like my books. And when I've read them to schools, they seem to have a very nice response.

And I hope it will encourage children to want to look after the wildlife because there is a chain, a chain of wildlife. And there's a guy called Derek Gow, who's a great wildlife campaigner. And he said people talk about an ecosystem in this country, but it's just like a cobweb that's blowing in the wind. It's all broken. So I'm trying to encourage children to look after our wildlife a bit better than my generation has done.

Do you regret the passing actually of children being read to, which increasingly we hear is genuinely under threat? And young kids, through no fault of their own, are turning up at school these days, and they've honestly never held a book. They certainly don't know how to open one. I think that's tremendously sad. There's something lovely about cuddling up with a child

and reading a book. And our family still does it. My lovely sons, they prioritise reading to the children. and I, you know, my husband and I, we often go out for a pub lunch on a Sunday. We've got favourite pubs. And you so often see the child in a family group just with a screen, you know, tapping away on a screen and not participating. But I'm not pointing the finger at anybody.

But, yes, reading is valuable on so many different levels. Is it true, and I love this fact, that the only poet to have outsold you in Britain, is Ted Hughes? Well, according to the bookseller, I am the second best-selling author, writer of poetry since records began after Ted Hughes. Which is lovely, isn't it? I'd rather you were the best-selling, if I'm honest.

It's not like you haven't been noticed, you've got the MBE. Is there a certain snobbery in the fact, and I'm being very careful here, I don't have the MBE, Pam, that you've only got the MBE. Oh, I don't worry about those sort of things. Well, I kind of worry about it on your behalf of a bit. Do you? Well, I'm not belittling myself or my achievements, but I never sat out to be a poet like Sylvia Plath or any of the proper poets.

But you are a proper poet? Well, thank you. Yes, I think I am, but my value is that I can make people laugh. and I can home in on subjects that people think about, but perhaps don't verbalise. I don't mind that I haven't been made a dame. Why would I want to be a dame anyway? People say that to me a lot now. They say, oh, you ought to be a dame.

But it's not something that comes into my consciousness. I perform lots of evenings in theatres, and they're always sold out. People turn out to see you. They're always sold out. And people always sold out. People always laugh and they go home and their mascara's run and that is reward. It's not something Ted Hughes ever did.

I don't know. But that's my reward and that's ample. All right. Let's hear a poem you've written as a way of ending this lovely conversation. And thank you, Pam. This is about online shopping. Yeah, this is about online shopping. It's called I'll have to send them back.

Those shoes, they looked so beautiful. so stylish and refined. A little motif on the front, a shapely heel behind. I ordered them and waited for the courier to call. Delivery was swift, he threw them straight across the wall. Through the air they travelled and they landed with a thud. Thanks a lot, I shouted and retrieved them from the mud. But the package had arrived and that had blown away the blues.

For what is more uplifting than a nice new parachute? wrapped in tissue paper, white as snow the footwear lay. I picked them up admiringly and turned them every way. I placed them on the carpet and with luxury they shone. But having these gigantic feet, I couldn't get them on. I'll have to send them back. I'll have to send them back. The ruddy things are useless.

I'll have to send them back. Down the post office I'll be glaring at the clock. standing in a queue that's going halfway round the block. Oh, I'm done with online shopping. It's just a loser's game. The goods all look enticing, but they go back just the same. Although, that is a lovely dress before me on the screen. I need one for a wedding, and that's the nicest one I've seen.

Oh, I could cut a dash in that. I'd be dressed to kill. The model's only 17, and... beautiful but still, where'd I put my credit card, my little plastic friend, next day delivery. That'll do it. Send. Fantastic. Pam, thank you very, very much. What size are your feet? I'm not going to tell you. But you're tall. Eight and a half they are. But they're big, Jane. And wild and knobbly.

I don't believe it. Lovely to see you. Thank you very much. Thank you. And if you're looking for a genuinely beautiful children's book, make sure you make a beeline for Pames. I'm Dandy the Dormouse. And the smaller individual in your life, I'm telling you now, I'll absolutely lap it up. Are you a nature lover as a child for you?

Oh my goodness. Well, we weren't allowed a television, so the answer to that question is, yes, not always with choice. Were you? Nature? Yes. I mean, we were literally just like go and play in it. That's your entertainment.

Yeah, I don't think I appreciated it enough. I think it's something you grow into, depending on where you grow up, I now love nothing more than a walk by the sea and just the smell of a beautiful garden. Totally. Which is something we could have discussed with Monta-Don, but... Well, hopefully there'll come a time. No, I'm with you on that,

and I think it is one of the joys of childhood if you have been able to be outside quite a lot, and it does come back to you. sometimes I get a little bit moved by wafting cow parsley. But we know you wouldn't be able to swipe at it with your kitchen roll because you don't have any. Let us know how you get on across the weekend without kitchen roll. And I'll just make a note every time I use it.

Okay. So I will have a kitchen roll audit. I am beginning to question my own addiction to it. I think I might try and ease myself of it. Right. Let's see if you can find a group for that. My name is Jane. I have not used a towel. I've not used a four-ply kitchen towel for a month.

Right. This and other trivia. Sorry, not trivia. Important stuff will be debated next week. Have a good couple of days. It's Jane and Fee at times.radion. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day. Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.

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