Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Let's not hear it for flannelette nightgowns (with Yanis Varoufakis)

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

It’s Wednesday, and Jane and Fi are very, very busy. We understand that you’re also busy, but do try to keep an eye out for Swiss gags, Greek gags, and yoghurt gags in this episode... you're welcome! Plus, former finance minister of Greece Yanis Varoufakis discusses the British economy and his latest book ‘Raise Your Soul’. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith.You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

There was a bewildering leaflet that came with them. It was quite strange, wasn't it? It was really weird, and it involved you having to put your leg on the loose seat. Yes. I could never get that right. And also, you just don't need to. No. No, I think that was what held me back.

At PWC, we don't just deliver ideas. We make them work. With the expertise in tech, you need to outthink and outperform. And we work with you, alongside you, from start. to finish. So you can stay ahead. So you can protect what you built. So you can create new value. We build for what's next. So you can get there now. PWC, so you can. PWC refers to the PWC network and all one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. You want work to be less hard work. You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out.

We connect your department systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights which empower your decision makers and triple monthly sales which leads to high fives and awkward hugs you say a big thank you we say you're welcome mhr the science behind hr payroll and finance the science behind a new world of work discover more at mhr global dot com Welcome to off-air on Wednesday, which has been very busy, and we're continuing to be extremely busy. But we understand that you, our audience, our listeners, our friends are also, thank you, Eve, are also very busy, is what I was going to see.

Very, very squeaky microphone going up there, isn't it? That is what precedes another fantastic little anecdote from the world. world of Stella Bell Star who is furnishing us one little drip at a time. I'm enjoying this. With tales from the world of show business. Just remind everybody. Well, I think I don't need to. If I just read the first line of the email, welcome to the next installment of Life on the Road with the Bell Stars. It was midwinter January the 10th, 1982. What would you have been doing in 1982. Funny you mention that. Because

I did of course be the diary. Have you got a sudden anecdote? You can just call to mind. This is very weird. But over the weekend my sister found her 1982 diary and read to me from her entry of the 11th of February 1982. I then went up and found my... By the way, this sounds like it's put together

but genuinely I had no idea that this was going to be the response. Just carry on sister. Yeah, and then I went to find my entry for that same day. Let's hear a bit more about your sister's entry. Well, no, it was, by her own admission, was extraordinarily turgid, and it was just a long list of lessons she'd had at school than how shit they were in her estimation.

She was 16, you know, she was 16, and she didn't want to do triple cookery. And I absolutely get it. Mine was even more ridiculous and was about my obsession with how vulnerable I would be if I sent a Valentine's card to a particular boy. I mean, I was nearly 18. It wasn't like I was a... I know, but you were in a girl guide still, you were 30.

I know. It was a little behind the pace, I think it's fair to say. And I go on at some length. And in the end, there's some, do you? And then I'm intervening in a row between two of my other friends. Anyway, so look, diaries are fabulous, but they don't bear much scrutiny in later life, I don't think.

I never kept one. No, well. I just couldn't, I couldn't see the point and getting to the end of the day and kind of reliving myself. It was just... I just wanted to be so much in other people's lives, actually. I just couldn't do it.

I couldn't do the diary thing. I kind of understand why you didn't, and I kind of wish I hadn't. But sometimes when I read the entries, there's a sort of a cockle-warming tingle of reminiscence. It's not all bad. And actually, in many ways, I realise how fortunate I've been.

Because the things I'm griping about are so minor. You need to occasionally just have a word with yourself. Quite often in our neck of the words, you'll see somebody in a cafe, journaling. We didn't call it that, did we? Well, what's the difference between keeping a diary and journaling? There's no difference. I think journaling, you don't necessarily do it every day, I think.

But you're right, it's a very kind of... It's just a new way of flogging the idea of keeping a diary. But lots of people do find that helpful, don't they? Kind of getting it out of their system. Yes. You could just write a newspaper column. Yeah. Another option.

Anyway, do we go back on the road? Definitely, let's get back on the road with Stella Bell Star. It was midwinter, January the 10th, 1982, and we've been invited to support Elvis Costello in Paris. It was a cold winter, that one, by the way. Our sound guys and roadie had left with the gear ahead of us before the worst of the weather set in. We were not so lucky, disembarking at Calais.

The storming snow hit us in full force, limiting visibility and making some roads impassable. But we soldiered. on in spite of the heating failing and the windscreen getting iced up. Unable to communicate with the venue as it was pre-mobile phone days, we finally arrived at the gig 20 minutes before we were due to go on stage. With no time to change into our stage gear, no makeup, no sound check, we played a cracking set and brought the house down.

Elvis Costello applauded our courage on battling the storm and he invited us to help ourselves to their food and booze while they were on stage. as we hadn't had time for a food stop on route we were absolutely starving so it was very much appreciated and finally we could relax and watch the amazing Elvis Costello and the attractions from the stage wings

more to come well do please keep it coming very much so Stella we're enjoying it I particularly like just the occasional reference to other important figures of the time Elvis Costello's big big band I mean I loved the attractions and Elvis of course himself

but we'd like other I mean you must have I wonder if she's got any anecdotes about Cajigugu or Duran Duran. Now, haven't we just been offered Lamar? Hasn't he got a new... Oh, yeah, he cropped up in conversation. Something out. In the sense that Eve asked me who Lamar was. Yeah, but I'm not going to...

I'm not going to cast any shade on Eve for that because I think he's one... Cajagoo is one of those bands. Lamar is one of those people. Who actually, his legend... I mean, to just be honest about the guy, it kind of exceeds the back catalogue, don't you think? I mean, you occasionally hear Kajagugu, that one song, don't you, played?

Too shy. Yeah, I couldn't name whole albums. He had a solo hit, I think, with the Never Ending Story. Yes, never-ending story. Good song. Yeah. I mean, all fair play to the guy, but I just don't think we can say to Eve

that's a kind of missing gap in her cultural heritage. I'd like her to go home and do a little bit more work. Could you write a 2,000-word essay on LaMalle, please? No, you'd appreciate it. Jack has been in touch about rugby. I wanted to write in following your comment that rugby isn't for everyone. You are correct, but at the amateur level, rugby does have the most diversity of body shapes and statures of any sport. Jack, I stand corrected.

Thank you for writing this. I took up rugby in my mid-20s. I joined the Kings Cross Steelers, the world's first inclusive rugby club, now celebrated. celebrating its 30th anniversary. I play with them for 10 years. I now coach a bit, helping mainly with the adult intro to rugby course. Now, unlike any sport, it doesn't matter what size or shape you are, there's a place for you on the rugby pitch if you're willing to get taken out with a tackle and do, yes, get a bit muddy. If you're short and stocky, you're a front row, tall and lanky, you're a second row, nimble and quick, you're on the wing. If you were interested in what

positions you might both be suited to best, I would say you would both make excellent scrum halves, maybe a little on the short side, but commanding play with absolute authority. Right, Jack, thank you. And it's just worth saying that Andrew says he was disappointed that in Monday's podcast, we didn't pay greater tribute to the wonderful red roses. I'm an 83-year-old man, he says, and I'm not alone in thinking that our girls play a better game than men. The wonderful, silky, Ellie Kildun and her fantastic tries. It is sad to reflect that the Canadian girls had to be crowdfunded and the Samoans were self-funding.

How different it is from the spoiled football players, says Andrew. Well, we did mention the Red Roses on Monday. I'm sorry. Another complaint here, just let's run through them while we're doing the complaints. Sophie and Sunbury. Long-time listener, several-time emailer. I do feel you slightly downplayed the incredible achievement of the Red Roses. Well, we definitely didn't mean to, did we? I mean, we did mention it.

Just not very much. No, okay. Four good friends of mine that I used to play with at Richmond Rugby Club organised the first ever World Cup back in 1991, says Sophie, on a wing and a prayer in a shoestring. And one of them has gone on to be president of the RFU, the first woman ever to head the committee once dubbed 42 old farts by Will Carling. Filling, Frikenham and several other rugby grounds across England in the last six weeks shows that we've come a long, long way. Well, we have, and absolutely once again, let's hear it for the Red Roses,

because England are now the Rugby Union world champions, the European champions in football, and the cricket World Cup is underway at the moment. How phenomenal it would be if... Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Wouldn't it be great? Caroline Howeth comes in to say, and this is about condolence.

letters. I recently helped my 18-year-old son write a condolence card to the family of a young man who died suddenly that he'd worked with for two years. For my son it was his first weekend job and this man who was about five years older had always been kind and great fun to work with. I told my son that I remembered a card a workmate of my dad sent to me when my dad died in 1998. I didn't know him but to have just a few lovely sentences of a glimpse of his life I didn't know about meant so much to me. The card is still in a bag in the loft nearly 30 years later. We wrote the card to his workmates family with some details about working together

and hope it brings them some comfort in the weeks, months and years to come. Well, as you know, Caroline, undoubtedly it will do and we are totally here for a resurgence in the condolence letter and the condolence card. As we were saying, we kind of understand why announcements of death can be made on social media platforms.

You want to be able to tell everybody and of course you should but it would be lovely to think that the condolence letter will still remain we were taught things like that at school Jane just the very basics of correspondence were you

certainly not that I wish you know it's a really good point I wish we had been taught how to write a condolence letter we were taught how to properly write a letter with the address on the top your own address on the top right

and then lower on the top left was their address two spaces down The date, two spaces down, dear sir and so. You always told what, dear sir. Dear sir, forward slash madam. Well, you didn't really bother with the wadders. Well, I think we were taught forward slash madam or school.

It was either yours faithfully or yours sincerely. Yes, yep. And the faithfully is if you don't know the name. I've got apps. I can't remember that detail at all. I was taught, it was faithfully if you weren't sure of the name you were writing to. It was a dear sir or madam letter. And sincerely, if you were addressing it to Albert Gubbins, Esquire.

Oh, okay, what, someone that you knew? Sincerely if you know the name of the person you're writing to and faithfully if you don't know. Okay. But I could have just made that up. No, I don't, no, I'm sure that there was some kind of a distinction. What's a question where the logic comes in there? So maybe it's the opposite.

Somebody will know. But, I mean, how many of it? I mean, I don't think my children would know how to write a letter, I'm ashamed to say. No, I don't think I've, I mean, my kids definitely write thank you letters. I mean, often it has to be said under a certain amount of, jurors because they do think that a text

does the job they think their level of comms is enough and it's me who doesn't and also you know we've got older relatives who love hearing something pop through the letter box oh it's just a card I know the friendly thump of a card

yep it's lovely it can be superb Chris says about 20 to 30 years ago we that's husband and two teens were on holiday touring around southern Ireland we'd have the local radio on in the car and every day they would read out the death notices. So Mary Macalone passed away.

She'll be removed from home on Tuesday afternoon to the church of our lady where a requiem mess will be said that evening. And then there would then be some snippets of information about the dead person, which were often very funny. We would look forward to these announcements every day. Not sure what that says about us. Well, I actually think, thank you, Chris,

I think that's rather lovely. And if those little titbits were that the person who just died did grow, the biggest marrow in County Wicklow for 10 years running. Why not celebrate it? I mean, it's good. You need to know about these people. Chris says she's looking forward to listening to Lisa DeSette and us at Cheltenham.

That is the Cheltenham Literature Festival coming up on us pretty quickly, isn't it, the week after next? It's October the 16th, isn't it? And we will be talking to Penny Lancaster, who has a memoir out, which actually my late in life one is reading segments to me in a romantic way. We're both

big fans. What do you mean? Which bits is he? Which bits is he reading? He just, he just... Sometimes it's just quite funny when somebody reads aloud to you. It's just quite funny. Can I ask, is he pretending to be Penny? Or Rod. I don't want to give too much of my gameplay away.

Please don't. Meanwhile, I'm still listening to Kamala Harris. I forgot to turn her off last night. She's reading to you. She's... Cavillers reading to me. I forgot to turn her off and I woke up at about 20 past 5 this morning

and she'd lost the election. Oh, spoiler alert. So I don't think I'll bother. No, I've had to just go back but there was quite an interesting bit before I fell asleep last night where, and this is interesting but also just so infuriating.

They were kind of game-playing how the debate against Donald Trump would go in the election campaign. Badly. But in the end, I mean, this is what the absurd situation is this woman, okay, far from perfect, still lost to that Trump.

Exactly. It's just unbelievable. Anyway, they are deciding what sort of things he might put to her and they did have to discuss the possibility because obviously contraception and abortion very much front and centre of the debate during the election campaign. They had to discuss what she would say if he asked her, have you ever had an abortion?

and in the end they came up with the notion that she would simply say that's none of your business and that's not why we're here but then somebody else suggested you could you could just go back with have you ever paid for an abortion or have you ever used Viagra and they think it's because he was aware that that was a possibility that he didn't go there in the debates he just realized that he didn't want her to answer the question

well he would just be hung out to dry because she would give a repost of that nature which would massively put him, shall we say, on the back foot. But, I mean, it is frustrating, isn't it? That's where we've come to. Do you think that our politics will end up at that level? Do you know what? I would have said emphatically no two years ago. I'm not so sure.

The party conferences are going on at the moment. And Kirstarmer, this is just a little kind of summary because we don't assume that everybody who's listening, especially outside the UK, is that interest in our party conference season. To be honest, I don't want to give the go away. Quite a few people in this country, aren't that invested? No, and it was interesting.

Actually, one of our political correspondents said that there was the least number of MPs attending the conferences this year because they don't see it as being entirely relevant outside the conference hall. Anyway, by the bye. Secere Stama's speech yesterday was about a Britain built for all.

It was really an invective against reform and its policies. It's been a conference dominated by allegations of racism against reform and the politics of grievance against reform as well. And the chairman of reform today has come out in defence of his party by playing that victim that Donald Trump managed to play so well too,

which is the you are going to cause us harm by calling us and our policies racist. You are going to make us vulnerable, make us subject possibly to violence, you're going to hurt us because you're calling out something that you see us doing and it's exactly the direction of travel that we saw between Biden and Trump as well where Trump was always the victim. It seemed to be irrelevant from where we were sitting

that he had incited violence on Capitol Hill, that he had trouble accepting the democratic vote. He was always the one who was the victim. And it makes me feel very uncomfortable at the moment, Jane. Yeah, it's not a terrific time, is it? We should remember that both a Tory MP and a Labour MP have been killed in the last 10 years in the UK. And again, that's something we probably don't acknowledge often enough.

It's truly diabolical and not something I ever thought would happen in this country. So, yeah, it's all a little bit grim at the moment. Can I just shoehorn into the conversation, this email from Lucy? She has just spent three days in Liverpool at the Labour Party Conference, working for a business, not a politician, she's anxious to point out. She took three taxis, whose drivers were quite simply fabulous and a great advert for Liverpool. No apologies to Jamal, I do love an exclamation mark. If she has used one, that's okay. They were properly charismatic, engaging, funny, charming and astute with their observations on politicians.

They were probably in their 30s and 40s, all white working class scouses. They wanted to talk about the conference, what was going on, what did I think about politicians and shared their own opinions. Can't imagine that a Liverpool cab driver would want to share his opinion. Quite astonishing. What struck me was that they should all have been traditional Labour voters, but they shared their very real disappointment in the current government. Their dislike for the Tories and their apparent efforts, but all were fearful of

reform. They were worried about how reform was dividing the country, how the use of English flags was making people of colour uncomfortable, and they didn't like their rhetoric. Yeah, I mean, I thank you for that, Lucy, and I'm glad you had a good time in Liverpool, and I know that the sun shone throughout the conference, which is actually just a great advert for a city, which can look magnificent when the weather is right. But I think Lucy and the cab drivers, she was chatting to, probably speak for many of us. We don't really feel that we have a natural political home. And it's all just a bit, well, it's all just a bit depressing. I think we have to acknowledge that. Well, it is. And until people are made to feel better by any government that's in

power, it's a complete free-for-all in this country, isn't it? Because we actually have our elections quite quickly. We have, we don't have a presidential election. You know, we have a first-past the post-one-person, one-vote system. There are very old constituencies. You know, We're quite a kind of rag-tag democratic bag, but everything's up for grabs every time at the moment it would seem. So, yes, yeah. Can I take you to Switzerland? We're in search of Swiss humour.

Wendy has provided us with some. How do you make a Swiss roll? Push him down a hill. This one comes in from Gwen. Yeah, thank you. It's a special place in my heart. I wanted to go on honeymoon there, but didn't want to get married. I was young.

I think it was the chocolate boxes that created the longing. We did get married 35 years ago, and we did go there on our honeymoon to the east of the country where hardly a soul spoke English. So I can't speak English in that sentence. Oh, the irony. So not very sure about their sense of humour, but their flag is a big plus. Their flag? A big plus.

Oh, it's literally a big plus. I was wondering. That's the first. Joe. Oh, dear, sorry. You're welcome, says Gwen. Thank you, Gwen. Sorry, you're just too sophisticated for me.

Our guest today, I tell you what, it'll be a burst of Greek sunshine when we get to him, which won't be too long now. It's Janis Varofakis. Can I just say that on the live show, Jane did the most astonishing link between Greek yogurt. We just had an interview with Tim Specter. And I think you literally said,

from the joys of Greek yoghurt to the former Greek finance minister It wasn't actually that good I said one of our guests next week is the good hill like Greek yogurt But there was a very For me very helpful article in the Times last week Yes the Times everybody

About the various yogurts you can get And how good they all were And mine, the one I favour Got five points out of five So I'm going to carry on with it Because I trust Peter B and the healthy eating gang who write for times too because especially when they endorse my choice of yoghurt

first thing at the morning. By the way, the conversation doesn't include any reference to yoghurt. I'm going to be disappointed now. I told him I'd just got back from my holiday in Greece and mentioned the island I'd been to and he very quickly pointed out he'd never been to it. And I said, oh, he said, well, you can't go to every Greek island. No, you can't.

Well, you probably could. You're not Odysseus. No. That's a, you might be tempted to write a gag for the classicist. Boring book. What? Warrulous. Jenny says, I'm 81 in November.

And my goodness, your talk of those sanitary towels. It really took me back. I'm the oldest of three sisters with a brother slotted in between. Six years between us all and all still here. How fantastic. Our dad worked nights. So I just can't imagine, she says, thinking about it, how hard it was for our mom.

I remember my darling old mom telling me about. periods when she was busy ironing one afternoon, then showing me the sanitary belt and the towel that I'd have to use, and that she'd have them ready for me when required. Now, I'm glad that you remember that, Jenny, because I'm afraid that's not something that every parent did. And Jenny does go on to say, my cousin, who lived in the same street, didn't know anything about it until she suddenly started bleeding one day. That must have been so frightening. I think it probably happened to a lot of girls, just horrible. The towels were Dr. Whites, of course. They came in three sizes. although even the smallest were too big for a young girl.

We had a local corner shop and this is the detail I love run by two sisters who were called the Miss Mittens. Isn't that fantastic? Miss Mitton and Miss Mitton. It was definitely ladies only. They sold knitting wool, underwear, flannelette nightgowns and Dr. Whites in a plain blue packet, paper packet. At one point there were four of us all having periods

so you can imagine how much room the towels took up. Our brother would take it all in his stride, even if they fell out of the cupboard onto his head. Right. Thank you very much indeed for that, Jenny. And how wonderful that you and your siblings are all still around, and I bet you have some lovely chats reminiscing about everything that happened. Jenny finishes by saying Lilettes and then Tampax came out as I went into my late teens.

Working out how actually to put one in was a whole different story. I started my nursery and midwifery career at the age of 19 and I was determined to master the technique before I actually got onto the wards yeah thank you Jenny I imagine now you can probably go to YouTube could you be able to go to YouTube to find out I don't know I'm not sure there was a bewildering leaflet

that came with them it was quite strange it was really weird and it involved you having to put your leg on the loose seat I could never get that right and also you just don't need to no you just don't no I think that was what held me back yeah it was very odd

just didn't understand that and it just said one of those diagrams which was a kind of see-through body I just found that really upset particularly for those without see-through body anyway just I love the those shops run by two sisters that's a great idea for shops

so look could we add this to our plan later in life because we've got Garvey and Glover's tops and bottoms which is a very very simple regional dress boutique shops And we could just have a women's shop, couldn't we? Just for womeny things. All they sold was knitting wool, underwear, flannelette nightgowns, and let's hear it for them, by the way, and sanitary towels.

No, let's not hear it for flannelette nightgown. Are you still wearing a flannelette nightgown? Absolutely, and I put a duffel coat on top for additional protection. From what? Um, the cat. Oh, I don't believe a word of it, kids. At PWC, we don't just deliver ideas. We make them work.

With the expertise in tech, you need to outthink and outperform, and we work with you, alongside you, from start to finish. So you can stay ahead, so you can protect what you built, so you can create new value. We build for what's next, so you can get there now. PWC, so you can. PWC refers to the PWC Network and all one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.

You want work to be less hard work. You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out. We connect your department systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights, which empower your decision makers and triple monthly sales, which leads to high fives and awkward hugs.

You say a big thank you. We say you're welcome. MHR, the science behind HR, payroll and finance, the science behind a new world of work. Discover more at mhrr global.com This one comes in from another Evelyn, it'll be the last one from me I feel slightly indolent as I retired at 56

We should have a fanfare for that We certainly should Well 56, I mean but Evelyn had a proper job Yeah, I'm 56, Evelyn is a worry I was a primary teacher and deputy head Obviously I haven't been I found myself getting really crabby with the children Which really wasn't their fault

they weren't being deliberately annoying. They were just being four. I also knew that there'd be an inspection looming in the next few years and didn't want to leave indecently close to that and definitely wasn't prepared to endure another one. That is so telling, Evelyn, so telling. I fully intended to do some supply work so it didn't feel like I was retiring.

But when I received a call asking if I'd like to teach some year six children on a Friday afternoon, I thought, do you know what? I don't. I never did any supply at all. I've loved looking after my three grandsons and being able to follow their interests without having to entertain 30 other children at the same time. Well, Evelyn, how fantastic, good on you.

And I'm sure that that did feel... I mean, retiring at 56, I think, is now quite strange. It would be considered quite young, wouldn't it? Not strange, but young. Yeah. Because, you know, many people, apart from anything else, financially, are pushing on until much later. And, of course, the state retirement age

just keeps going up and up and up. but well done you how fantastic but I'm so sad to read that about an inspection looming featuring quite so highly in your decision about what you can realistically take on in your life and what you can't

because an off-stead inspection shouldn't be doing that to presumably very talented and dedicated teachers what's that about well perhaps somebody who's been an off-stead inspector can let us know they are usually people who have been teachers. Yeah, I mean, I completely understand the need to, you know, look into schools and to give people an idea of what's happening in schools. But the more we hear about them, you know, the more they just seem to be costing those people who are working very hard within the schools,

you know, time, energy and emotion that they just don't have. Let us know, because you will know more than either of us about this. On every topic, actually. Not on everything. Not on my diaries. I know much more about them than anybody else. Okay, so you know much, much more But everything apart from... Jane. And that's just the truth. Jane and Fiat Times. Radio. Now, after listening to that ramble,

which featured Miss Mittens and their wool shop back in the day, scrum halves, you're probably thinking, do you know what? What I'd like to hear now is an invigorating discussion about libertarian Marxism, possibly featuring a former Greek finance minister. Well, you're in luck.

Former Greek finance minister and very successful author and economist of some renown, Janis Varifakis. He came to international prominence when he was in that Greek finance minister role back in 2015 negotiating on behalf of the Greek government during the debt crisis. He's gone on to write a number of very successful books, but his latest is quite a contrast to previous efforts like techno-fudalism, What Killed Capitalism. The new one is called Raise Your Soul,

and it's about the women in his family who've lived through turbidivism. turbulent times in history and have shaped the lives of his close family members and himself. I asked Janice why he wanted to put women front and centre in his latest book, Raise Your Soul. I had to write that book

because I hated myself when I finished my previous book, which was a long letter to my father about the economy, about what I call techno feudalism the way that, you know, algorithmic capital is changing the world we live in. And when I finished writing

that previous book, technical feudalism, and I thought, okay, I keep talking about my dad. Where's my mom? She's my political mentor. She shaped me. And it was my father's mother who shaped him. So what's happening here? The monosphere has infected my own DNA.

And so I took a very long, critical look at myself in the mirror. And I decided I'm going to write a book about the last hundred years. So this is your feminist... From the perspective of five women. Yeah, your feminist book. Yes, it is. And, you know, I don't say this lightly. my grandmother I discovered why they're writing this book

in 1923 in Egypt in Cairo she was ethnic Greek but she was born and raised in Egypt joined something called the Egyptian feminist union there was such a thing back not even a suffragette and that is incredible isn't it an Egyptian feminist union and I discovered that while writing this book so I'm not sure whether we men have the right to call ourselves feminist

I call myself feminist Feminine is probably something you need to experience through womanhood but what my mother and these other four women taught me is that we men cannot have a good life unless we fight patriarchy and authoritarianism more generally But before we go any further with the book because we will talk about politics later and about global events How would you define your politics?

I think it's fair to say that people associate you with your period of time as the Greek finance minister. You're very much to the left economically, aren't you? Yes, I am a leftist. I call myself, and that annoyses a lot of people, I call myself a libertarian Marxist.

A libertarian Marxist. Yes, people think this is a contradiction in terms. I don't think it's a contradiction in terms. I loat concentrated power. Concentrated power, corrupts the human soul. It's a very inefficient way running human societies. And I don't care whether power is concentrated in the hands of a bureaucrat, the state, or indeed a conglomerate, you know, what we call big capital.

So, you know, this is how I try to understand the world and my political project is to effectively diffuse and distribute power. Because when it's concentrated, then as a species, we're not doing very well. Well, we will talk more about that, but I just wanted to sort of pin you down politically. So listeners know what they're dealing with, Janice. But we need to get back to the women in your life and in the book. Now, Greece has been through an enormous amount over the last, let's say, 100 years. I mean, I, to my shame, didn't know enough about the suffering of the Greek people in World War II, for instance. After that, there was a civil war. Then you had a military dictatorship. Tell us about the experience of your grandmother in the book and why you wanted

to focus particularly on her, not Anna, but your other grandmother? I may preface this by saying that for some reason, which I'm not 100% sure I understand, Greece was in the eye of the storm on a number of occasions. I mean, a lot of bad things started in Greece.

So, like, the Cold War, it didn't begin in the streets of Berlin. It began months before in the streets of Athens. That's where the Greek Civil War begat on the Cold War later on. And it was Winston Churchill, who made the move, right or wrongly, I'm not going to pass judgment on this,

to essentially fuel the Greek civil war and go all out for it. You make it clear that you don't believe the British. That was against the advice of his own Tory government ministers, right? The British do not emerge blameless from your book. Well, not to the Greeks.

Because I'm not in the business of playing the blame game. I'm in the business of understanding how human frailties and mistakes all over the place. So, you know, I'm a leftist who is extremely critical of the left and I wish that the rightists were extremely critical of the right too then maybe we would be able

to get somewhere but you asked me about my grandmother so this is a book about the women's perspective look my grandmother was I have two grandmothers one was a highly sophisticated you know the figure of their enlightenment my mother's mother whom we are asking after was a peasant

girl who was illiterate she couldn't actually read and write the Greek and yet she raised me while my mom was at work and my dad or in prison or somewhere and she actually taught me so much and it was wonderful to watch her

learn how to read at the rival age of 65 and then immerse herself in literature and become one of the most insightful persons ever she also she kept her politics very private didn't she? I love the fact that she would insist on being I think taken to the polling station

but there was never any guarantee that she'd vote the way that anybody else wanted. Oh, she would tell everyone that tried to persuade her to vote the way they wanted, that of course she would vote the way they said. But then in the polling station, behind the curtain, she would do whatever she wanted. And she actually never told me, even

though we talked about almost everything. I suspect what she was voting for. She wasn't the same thing in every election. But she was remarkable that handling men in particular their vanities, their attempts to mansplain, their attempts to

you know, just director. And she was a soft power that I learned an enormous amount from. You know, and mainly the idea that soft power is not soft. No, far from it. If it's used properly, it's

incredibly effective. And she can be also a unifying power. She managed to bring people together. She was a great mediator. I mean, you know, this is a tragedy of patriarchy. There are these women that have been set aside, marginalized, considered only good for the home. And yet, you know, now in my mid-60s, I've met quite a few

statesmen, stateswomen and so on. And I realized that these women who were sidelined would have done a much better job of bringing people together and avoiding conflicts all over the world. It's all about compromises as well, isn't it? And you tell some fascinating stories about the relationship between your mother and her brother. Because he was, well, how would you describe him? We don't want to focus too much on the men, although he is quite a very, A compelling figure, your uncle. Especially when seen through my mother's eyes, because this is how I learned to understand men

through the eyes of these women. And to understand myself too. He was a complex figure. He was a very successful engineer. He headed Siemens, the German corporation in southern Europe, not just Greece. He was extremely powerful and quite rich. and he was what you would call now a libertarian right-winger

who believed that democracy needs to be defended from its left-wing riffraff opponents, people like me, even by authoritarian means. Yes, there's a great quote here. His belief was that you had to deploy authoritarian means to save democracy from authoritarianism. That's correct. Just don't pick that?

We hear a lot about that, don't we? We hear it from Kirstama. I guess you could say... You have to put people in prison for a tweet they posted in order to defend democracy. Yeah, but you could also point to the attempts that Gavin Newsom is making to be Trumpy in his reposted Donald Trump's social media posts. It's all going on.

I mean, do you think it works? But what I learned from my mother was how to deconstruct these personalities, these larger-than-life men, very talented, very charming, very persuasive. and yet to look at them in the end as spoilt brats who get really peeved when their emotions are not respected by the women or the audiences around them so for me looking at him

and I adored him I loved him to death and I thought the world of him and at the same time I knew how to look at him as a cad because my mother used to call him a cat even though she adored the you know she worshipped the soil in which he tread so how to be nuanced you see Jane one of the great losses of our era

is that we have forgotten how to be nuanced. We have to look at people in black and white. Either they're great or they're awful. Well, people can be great and awful at the same time. And these women have taught me that. Yes. Well, it is the women on the whole, this is a generalisation, who have to sweep up, mop up around the circumstances

in which they find themselves often after the bad political decisions taken largely. They're not entirely by men. That seems to be a global thing. Indeed, that's one dimension. The second dimension is when women rise to power by becoming honorary men and behaving like men would. Give me an example.

Margaret Thatcher or Rachel Reeves, for that matter. She's pretending to be George Osmond without his very municipal talents. All right. Okay. So Rachel Reeves has got, she's our British Chancellor to international listeners, she has got a budget coming in about eight weeks' time.

It will be a disaster. Okay, well, who'd swap places with her? What would you do? Ah, well, you know, the Irish joke, I wouldn't start here. Okay, yes. No, but look, let's start right from the beginning. Even before she won office, she adopted George Osborne's idiotic maxed credit card narrative,

the idea that, you know, the state is... But there's nothing more in the coffers? Well, yes, not only that, but that the credit card of the nation has been maxed out and now we need to cut down in order to create growth. That never works. It will never work. But how do you deal with getting the debt down, with the interest on the debt?

I mean, we're spending far too much. Not through cutting. Not for cutting. Then what do we do? Because you see, the difference between your budget, my budget, and the state budget, is that when we cut, our income is not cut. Right? I mean, if you don't go to the pub tonight, you save a few pennies. Yeah.

Your income is not going to have shrunk. But when she's cutting and when she's introducing, national insurance contribution hikes, then she's cutting the pie from which she's going to have to collect taxes. Okay, so if you were delivering the British budget in November, what would you do?

We don't have that much time, so I'm going to stick to two answers. The first one is I would not allow the Bank of England to get away with this way in which it is selling all the assets that it had purchased during the quantitative easing days of yesterday, because that is costing

the British public, the threshold. $34 billion every year she's giving away to the bankers in that quantitative tightening now is this a technical issue but this is a choice, a political choice is made I don't think the Tories would have made it even today

even if they had made it they would have reversed it because she needs to prove that she's a Tory when she's not or she doesn't think she is that's one the second thing I would do the second thing I would do the greatest issue now for the British economy

over the last 20 years or so, is how to convert the amazing amounts of liquidity of money which is throssing around in the financial circuits in the city and so on. There's a lot of money, but it's not being invested in productively productive capital. Now, for that, you would need to create a public investment bank and issue bonds that then the Bank of England can back so as to siphon off all this liquidity and direct it to the green transition, to all those technologies that, you know, China is developing

so efficiently like, you know, green energy, electric vehicles and all that. All the things that we, Europeans and the British are falling behind, that needs to be, there needs to be an industrial policy just to simply say I want to go for growth when you're doing absolutely nothing except creating circumstances for shrinking any force that would contribute to growth.

This is simply unworkable. So we hear a lot about how this, government, this Labour government is in hock, I think the expression is in hock to the bond market. And in other words, I guess they feel a responsibility to be more fiscally prudent, ironically, than their Tory predecessors. Because the city will be onto them if they display any lax economic prices. Look, they are right to be fearful of the bond market. Remember, Bill Clinton once said that if he wants, if he's going to be born into some, some other role,

he would want to become the bond market to terrorize everyone. So they're right. My criticism of Rachel Reeves, similarly to George Osborne, but much more so now, because you have a lot more stagnation now, is that she's not going to placate the bond markets

the way she's doing it. She's going about it the wrong way. If you are too fearful of the bond markets and you start cutting during periods of stagnation, then investment, productive investment, is going to go further down. Now, in the last thing, 30 years or so. I used to live in this country, and I remember seeing it happen.

We had in this country, in the United Kingdom, the liquidation of productive capital. Maybe it was necessary, shutting down all the industries of the 1970s, you know, steel industry and coal industry and all that. But in its stead, we had effectively financialization. It was just a paper economy that was being built up that increased the current account deficit. I mean, Britain was living beyond its means and still is. And what capital has been created is fictitious capital. You know, house prices have gone up, asset prices have gone up, but no productive investment. And the result is that the chickens have come home to roost.

Now, for me, they would need this labour government to be brave and look at the middle classes, especially the upper middle class, and say, you know, there will have to be some losers so that we have productive investment. You know, house prices should fall. Right, house prices should fall. And what about tax rises? Well, tax rises should take place, but not national. and insurance contribution rises

because this is a tax on employment. So, for instance, you know, a tax on land in the old Ricardo tradition of the early 19th century, an idea that even Churchill espoused that rentiers must pay greater taxes and those who are engaged in productive activities

should pay lower taxes. But this is not what Reeves is doing. Yeah, okay, those who earn money from money should be prepared to cough up. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's nothing virtuous about not investing

in anything that generates anything that anyone wants and still get rich in your sleep. Because this is what happens, you know, if you have a lot of capital over the last 20, 30 years, and you do nothing. You get rich in your sleep

while the vast majority are failing to make ends meet. Right, okay, and that's great. and in the end nobody wants to live in that society because it will have an impact on all of us at some point. But policies like, for example, the Reform Party in Britain is treated by all the other so-called main parties as a threat,

as the biggest threat to them. Labour politicians at their conference this week have talked endlessly about reform. Do you think they're right to focus on that party, which has just four MPs at the moment? And to many people is appealing, and to others just appears to be a party offering simple solutions to incredibly complex problems.

I think I'm with you on this. I think it's self-defeating to keep focusing on reform instead of focusing what they should be doing. They're looking at the symptom, not the cause of the problem. The problem is that this country has experienced the diminution of its social and productive capital. Thatcher's sell-off of council houses has spearheaded a housing crisis

which is now attacking viciously their grandchildren of the people who made some money out of buying their council houses so that's one example yeah but there were so many people who because with respect to you you weren't living in Britain at that time I was okay you were living in Britain at that time

I spent the whole first 10, 11 years of Thatcher's rule and so was I and I remember the pride that some people were able to take in the possibility of home ownership. Except that it was a terrible idea from the perspective of the nation. I mean, it was very good for the people.

I mean, you lived in a council house and the government came under Thatcher and said, okay, the market value of this house is 20,000 will give to you for 10. And immediately you went to the bank manager and the bank manager would extend a loan to you because of the collateral being worth 20 and you would only get 10.

And you felt pride and you looked after the house and you thought, I understand that. But those people's grandchildren are paying the price. They upgraded. They went into debt to get to a better area, a better neighborhood. All those homes were effectively dropped out of the social housing stock. And now you have a situation where especially in the North of England, but also in southern England, youngsters can simply not afford to live. The reason why we had social housing in this country was because quite sensibly,

governments from both sides of the aisle in the House of Commons built up about 30, 35% of houses were social houses and we know this from the global experience that this is necessary. So instead of talking about reform, talk about how the housing stock is going to be increased in quantity and quality and how social housing is going to return to this country.

Where the money will come from? I don't want to interrupt you, but I'm really interested in your take on whether it's possible to beat reform by being like them, you don't seem to think so. Absolutely not. I mean, look, Kirsteame is responding to the xenophobia of Nigel Faris. I don't think Nigel Farage is xenophobic, personally.

I think that he knows how to leverage xenophobia in a way that, I mean, he's a magnificent operator. He's extremely successful in leveraging and drumming up this fear of the foresight. and of the small boats and so on. Why is he not xenophobic then? That sounds to me like a slightly... Because I don't think that he's simply being instrumental. I think he's, you know, he...

He's using xenophobia in order to get where he wants to be. And that's the Downing Street. And he's, yeah, good luck to him. But when Kirstam responds with xenophobia light, you know, the public is going... If xenophobia is in the air, they're going to go for the full fat version, not the light version.

For the cynics listening, Janice, who are thinking this fella seems to know what he's talking about but if he's so clever, why isn't Greece in a better place? What would you say to that? Because I failed badly. You know, I had one job as the most bankrupt state in Europe and that is not to take another credit card. We were bankrupt.

Imagine you can't repay your mortgage and somebody says, come in and tries to push down your throat the credit card on condition that you will shrink your income, which is madness, right? So my job, the reason I accepted the position of the Finance Minister, and I was elected to it, was not to take that credit card. But, you know, I struggled for six months. My Prime Minister at some point said,

either you accept the credit card or you resign, and I resigned. The result is that Greece remains in the credit card debtors prison and our people, while the rest of the world are celebrating how well Greece is doing, 80% are far worse of today than they have ever been. so I was a dismal failure but at least you know I didn't put my signature on the dotted line of another credit card that we should never have accepted

Janis Varifakis his book is called Raise Your Soul and there he is a man who can own his own failures and wants to be thought of as a feminist and I think he seemed a bit doubtful about whether or not men could be feminist but I think they can they should be they should all be

we should all believe in the equality of the sexes what's wrong with that well you often challenge your own position on that so but i'm with you sister i'm with you okay um if only we'd had more time we would have got on to yoghurt i just want to reassure you about that um but as he made it abundantly clear he couldn't visit every greek island i just felt that probably i couldn't stray into um dairy products is dairy stray or strain because that's a that's a yogurt gag there is actually a it is a strained product isn't it I've never inquired too closely as to what exactly has been strained and how.

But then, and also, I think if you then strain yoghurt, don't you get to labnay? I'll leave you with that thought. Is that an island? Haggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

At PWC, we don't just deliver ideas. We make them work. With the expertise in tech you need to outthink and outperform, and we work with you, alongside you, from start to finish. So you can stay ahead, so you can protect what you've built. so you can create new value. We build for what's next, so you can get there now. PWC, so you can.

PWC refers to the PWC network and all one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. You want work to be less hard work. You hear an ad for MHR, so you reach out. We connect your department systems, which leads to real-time data sharing that uncovers new insights,

which empower your decision-makers, and triple monthly sales, which leads to high-fives, and awkward hugs You say a big thank you We say you're welcome MHR The science behind HR

Payroll and Finance The science behind a new world of work Discover more at mhrglobal.com