Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Let's park Gary Lineker and talk about toasters - with Spencer Matthews

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

The dial on the side of the toaster has inspired a critical debate - could this be the most important experiment of our time?Also, Jane and Fi are joined by Made in Chelsea's Spencer Matthews, who's released a documentary about the journey to find his brother's body on Mount Everest.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kea BrowningTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's very, very warm in the studio. Yeah, but I like it, actually. I've got a vest on, so I appreciate it. Right, it's Tuesday, and here is Off Air, the podcast. And we had some calamitous events on our show today, didn't we? People just kept failing to turn up. Well, yes. So it did mean that we spent quite a long time talking to each other.

And also discussing whether or not my baby, Lady Cat, might have been visited by her enormous dad cat, come to get her just to say hello through the window. We decided that probably wasn't a thing. Sometimes, do you ever look up and think, yeah, we're in a radio studio, people might be listening to this. What am I doing talking? No, I don't think.

You mustn't ever let your thoughts go in that direction because that way lies a certain amount of insanity. Just don't worry about it. OK. I always just think I've got a nice, relatively clean duvet at home. I'll be bundled up in it soon. That's what i think when i sometimes because you start listening to yourself too closely that way madness lies

don't don't ever do it okay yeah i'm just wondering what the relevance of a slightly clean duvet is well i'm always relatively happy if the sheets have been changed within living memory okay i did read a whole article the other day about how frequently you should change your sheets. Right from the top to the very bottom and sometimes I can't get through articles all the way to the very bottom anymore. But I did on that one.

Were the comments turned off? I think they were. I'm going to keep it brief. Your duvet every two weeks but your sheet and your pillowcases at least once a week yes at least at least well yeah that would be about right because of the amount of dead skin and god knows what comes comes off your head yeah okay anyway let me just deal with uh this one from sally uh jane i think you're so wrong to criticize gary lineker i'm just so surprised to hear you

say what you did what What did I say today? I think I just repeated what I said yesterday. This must be from Sally in response to what I said. It is, I think, actually, in response to what I said on the radio today. Actually, I completely... You can criticise me all you like, Sally. That's absolutely fine. My point is that Gary is free indeed to say what he wants,

and I'm not saying I disagree with what he said, particularly about the government's use of language around migrants. My point is that he's actually made it really difficult for a lot of other people at the BBC. And in fact, over the last couple of days, the conversation has been all about Gary Lineker. It could actually have been all about the government's policy and there could have been a bit more scrutiny of it.

And all we've been talking about is a retired footballer. So I think we've probably, and V's right, we've talked enough about him, haven't we, really? Well, I've felt frustrated with it ever since last Monday because so much focus has just been on the BBC and its internal processes. I think it's an easy conversation to have. It's an easy thing to have an immediate opinion about.

And it stops us from talking about the reason it's an easy conversation to have. It's an easy thing to have an immediate opinion about. And it stops us from talking about the reason why he got into all of the bother in the first place. But I think the bit that people couldn't quite understand, I think it was you saying that Gary Lineker might have known exactly what he was doing when he tweeted that tweet. I do think that, because he has been warned a number of times before and he's carried on working for the organisation,

which pays him over a million quid, and which has now had him back again. And now there's going to be another review, which people who've already paid for the licence fee will have to pay for. And it's the second one in two years. So before we completely leave it alone, Claire has sent a very thoughtful email,

which she has said, I really, really hope you read this out because she's going to be listening to the podcast tonight from her month's interrail trip. She's currently in Sicily, which is just such a delightful prospect. But to her point is, yes, he earns a lot of money.

Yes, he should have spoken up for equal pay for women at the BBC. But I think he has done us all a favour by generating a discussion about what's happening. So should we just leave it there? Yes. Let's park Gary Lineker. And talk about toasters.

And talk about toasters. So this is off the back of Jane having watched a TikTok video. I think it was probably propaganda put out by the Chinese government direct from Beijing. Yes. So that we all stood by our toasters and wasted five minutes of our life seeing whether or not the number five on the toaster tourney bar

was actually to do with toastiness or to do with time. So nobody has got a five marker that actually means five minutes. Or if they have, they had to call the fire brigade and they're no longer talking to us. Lucinda Quigley is one of many who says, Fee, Jane, of course it's toastiness, evidence attached. If it was minutes, it would say minutes. Well, you would think so.

Yes, all right, clever clogs. This is from Emily. It's 3.25 in Vancouver. I woke up feeling peckish, so I've made a piece of toast. This is from Emily. It's 3.25 in Vancouver. I woke up feeling peckish, so I've made a piece of toast. I had the toaster set to seven and I noted the time. I can assure you that my toast did not take seven minutes. It took five.

So the number does indeed refer to the level of toastiness and not to the number of minutes. Of course, I can't be the only listener who is shouting at the radio during a discussion. Even if the number did correspond with the number of minutes, it would also have corresponded with the toastiness level. More time equals toastier toast. Right, having resolved the critical and global toastiness debate, I can go back to sleep.

Emily. Emily, take care of yourself. Thank you very much for responding. And we probably do need to know why you were awake at 3.25. Do you often wake up at 3.25 and feel hungry? Or was this just in your mind and you felt a compulsion to take part in one of the most important experiments of our time? I wonder how many people stayed with the experiment all the way until five.

Stayed with the experiment. No, I don't think many. Bridget, can we just say a very good afternoon, good evening, good night or good morning to you? You've written in about our adverts. That is a work in progress, just to say that we've got your email and we have some thoughts on that too do you have a quick one to do before we go to spencer matthews well no this is from henrietta who was tickled by yesterday's suggestion of a bath harness um like yourselves i stand no higher than five foot two and have never understood the concept of a luxurious bath unless i desire full

submersion or run an ankle deep puddle, bath time is a complex procedure of braced limbs, fraught washing and aching stomach muscles as I soap and rinse while keeping my head afloat. No amount of badidas or the like would soothe my body during that process and certainly makes very few things possible subsequently. Thank you for your peerless, but we don't normally read these things that uh combined with the wonderful off-air community the podcast proves to be the perfect tonic for middle-aged insomnia thoughts of paunchy hedgehogs struggling to ball up or houses everywhere with hallways cluttered with trainers are a welcome distraction at 3 a.m from my father's worsening alzheimer's or the the never ending thought loop of will my teenage children really be okay? Henrietta? Yes, I'm really glad we're providing a little bit of

company in those. There are vexing moments, aren't there? In the wee small hours of the morning when you want desperately for your thoughts to stop, and they just won't cooperate. It's infuriating. So thank you. And one of the things that we've enjoyed enormously, the photographs of your she-spaces or your she-sheds that you've been sending us. This one comes from Alex who says, While I was inking my comics, I listened to your podcast about having a space to do your own thing.

I spent four months digging out the steep hillside behind our house, then hauling up the timber and concrete to construct the foundation piles and the literal tonne of wood that would become the shed. My partner doesn't like the wonky steps I've built between the house and the shed studio, so it gives me a space where I can write without him coming in to destroy it. I do so love my studio. That's very clever, Alex. Love your banter too. Most Kiwis don't share the British sense of humour

We're delighted to be here for you and I tell you what Alex, if we ever do Antipodean tour which we are threatening, quite a long time spent in Brisbane, we'd love to come and sample your wonky steps and your she shed

because it just looks a thing of wonder and the view just looks extraordinary. So I'll try and take a picture of this and pop it up on Twitter actually later on today because they are inspirational places. And I made an idiotic comment, not for the first time, another of my idiotic comments about Noosa being like Blackpool.

Noosa is in Australia and a very angry Sally writes to say Noosa is a sub-tropical paradise with almost perfect weather year-round, white sands and crystal clear water. It has a stunning national park protected for decades from development by locals and it has some of the most expensive real estate in Australia. and it has some of the most expensive real estate in Australia. Australia is a much more cosmopolitan, multicultural and progressive place than you likely expect. Thank you, Sally. I stand corrected, although Blackpool has its attractions. I'm sure it does. Actually, I have been to Blackpool, so I know it does,

but only on a political conference jaunt, which I don't think is ever the best way to see it. Do you remember which party it was? It would have been Labour. And it was when I was doing the late night programme at Five Live. And actually the conference season when you're doing late night radio is fantastic. I bet you saw some sights. Because a lot

of people, let's say they've been to some fringe events by the time they come to you in the studio and the conversation is always delicious. Do you ever flirt with a junior minister? I've never done that, Jane. Have you? I think it was probably inescapable. I actually reserve my flirtations for secretaries of state. Oh, I see. You go slightly up the grading, if you can call it that in political yeah um quick mention for the irish health service i don't need to mention your name but it's from

somebody who works in the irish health system and they were interested in what we were saying about recruitment and how difficult it is to get certain staff for the nhs our correspondent says that they were a recruitment manager for years in Ireland. I've recruited almost every grade. Medical consultants, surgeons, paediatric neurologists, junior doctors, psychologists, social workers, physios, admins, speech and language, everything. Lab staff, many more. The only grade I've never hired is a Felbomist. Fleb, I think. Felbomist?

No, I know that one. That's a blood person, isn't it? Yes. This is spelt P-H-E-L-B-O-M-I-S-T. Oh, a philbologist. Unless it's a typo. In my years, the hardest grades to find, to fill, were an orthoptist. Do you know what that is? No, but I'm troubled at your pronunciations of all these things. Orthoptist. Do you know what it is? No, what is it? It's a physiotherapist for the eyes. That's interesting, isn't it? Oh, yeah. My heart would sink when I'd hear people like orthoptists and audiologists were leaving as it was so difficult to get decent replacements.

It's very interesting, isn't it? I'd like to know a little bit more about what a physiotherapist for the eyes does. Yes, if you're an orthoptist, and by the way, we talked about podiatry the other day, and tomorrow we are interviewing Kate, who was the podiatrist who kindly emailed in, so she's going to be on later in the week. Lovely. I think it was Sir Paul McCartney, wasn't it, after his rather majestic appearance at Glastonbury last year, where everyone went, oh my goodness he looks so great and he's

really old. And lots of detail was written about how he keeps in such good shape and he does eye exercises every day for ten minutes where he focuses on near things, far things, you know, like he's doing a little eye test for himself. I'd never thought to do that.

Well, I mean, he has got the time, hasn't he? I suppose he has. Our big interview today... What? No, I was just thinking. I mean, it's not to say that I don't appreciate his body of work, but, you know, he's usually on holiday when he's not at... You're very, very damning of everybody.

Our big interview today was Spencer Matthews. Now, this was... I think it might be easy to look was Spencer Matthews. Now this was, I think it might be easy to look at Spencer Matthews and think there's a bloke who's born with a silver canteen of cutlery in his mouth because his family are extremely well off. He's definitely been at

the front of the queue in terms of looks. I know that people who've watched Maiden Chelsea would say that he's probably at the front of the queue in terms of, I don't know, use of charisma in a slightly odd way. Yeah, I mean, I think he says himself that his Made in Chelsea years are a long time ago, actually, now, because I think he started doing that in his very early 20s, didn't he? And he's now 34.

And he's 34, yeah. Yeah, but he was definitely, I don't quite know how to phrase it without sounding rather damning. He was one of the leading characters in Made in Chelsea when it first started. Yeah, displaying some rather nasty kind of machismo behaviour and stuff, which he would freely admit to now. But also there's tragedy in his family because when he was only 10, his big brother Michael set off to climb Everest. He became the youngest Briton to summit the mountain,

but he died there just as he'd started his descent. He got lost somewhere on the south summit which is the smaller peak below the very top of Everest and his body has never been found and two decades on Spencer and his family were sent a photograph literally just a photograph on email. It had been taken by another climber. It was of a body in the ice that they thought might be Michael. And so Spencer set off to try and bring his brother home. You can see this journey in a documentary. It's now available on Disney Plus. And Spencer came into the studio today and we started by asking him how old Michael was when he decided to climb the mountain.

He was 22 when he went to the mountain. So maybe 21. mountain uh he was he was 22 when he went to the mountain so maybe maybe 21 and was that completely in keeping with who he was was he an adventurer yeah no he he loved that kind of stuff obviously i was very young so you know i've been i've been told more what what michael was like as a young man rather than experiencing it for myself but he he climbed akon kagwa and kind of you know really good time and you know developed a bit of a reputation for being a very strong climber. And did a number of other peaks as well. And, you know, had travelled all over Africa and spent plenty of time, you know, travelling. And he, yeah, he had a very adventurous soul.

Do you remember him going to Everest when you were a young boy? Yeah, I remember we were staying in a hotel at the time, just kind of down the road from our house because it was being refurbed. And I remember saying goodbye to Michael and he left in the lift. And, you know, I think at that age you're, you know, slightly oblivious. Well, I certainly was oblivious to the kind of risk involved in what he was doing because he'd kind of done this kind of thing before and Everest was just another mountain, you know.

And to me, he was, you know, he was a bit of a hero to me, as I say in the film, you know. He was always the strongest and the biggest and the best at stuff, you know. And so I kind of always admired him and didn't imagine that anything could get in his way, you know. But Everest is a dangerous place, isn't it? Which is what Michael then found out. Who sent the photo to you that started this whole documentary and this whole search for you? Just a climber. And we don't we don't know them. So it kind of came a bit out of the blue,

came in 2017. And, you know, the summit suit of the person who's lying face down in the photo looks very similar to my well looks you know identical um to michael's and that's when you know i began to think about um you know the possibility of of trying to recover his his body back in 1999 that wasn't a possibility. At the time, you couldn't fly helicopters into Camp 2, which is an absolutely essential part of recovering a body off that mountain. You would not be able to carry a body

that had taken on that much water weighing what it would weigh through the Khumbu Icefall. It'd be a near-, a near impossible task. So it's something that hasn't really been explored until later on. So, you know, with that in mind and with a few body recoveries having been conducted successfully, you know, my mind just went into a bit of a spin. What would it feel like to bring him back?

Is this something that the family would really want? You know, I know that it was something that my parents wanted. But of course, as you've mentioned, Everest is a dangerous place and it didn't come without risk. And so we had to get very comfortable around potential risk to other life. And, you know, that came through a number of conversations with you know Bear Grylls and Nims Persia and people who are far more familiar with um climbing at altitude than than me we'll talk about Nims uh in a moment though but I just wonder how much you as a family had known about

how Michael had died from other climbers because his friend who started the climb with him had to leave the mountain didn't he because the altitude had got to him so when Michael went on to the summit he wasn't in the company of people he knew extremely well yeah um he had met a gentleman called Dave Rodney by that time and and Dave kind of michael's climbing partner he's also in the film um the film is called finding michael um by the way and and yeah he he you know i meet dave for the first time really as an adult um dave had we had crossed each other apparently in the home back when i was you know 10 or 11 um but i i had not had any communication with Dave for over 20 years. And was Dave the only person who could really tell you and your family what had happened that day on the mountain?

Yeah, Dave was Mike's climbing partner, apart from the night that they were supposed to attempt to summit. So they had spent a lot of time together. They'd become very close. And Dave had a lot of information around that 1999 expedition that you know we found um very useful as as a family we weren't told much you know when when michael um went missing and you know dave was able to to help us um piece together a few a few bits and bobs but also dave was um when i sent d Dave the photograph when we decided to to document the

journey um I wanted his opinion on whether or not he thought the body could be Michael's and um he told me that he had footage of Mike you know all the way leading up to moments before uh Mike died um that I had never seen before and I thought that was uh certainly enough to get me on a on a plane to go and see him so so I went and met Dave and Dave is a kind of wonderful man who has carried this around with him for for many years he's still very emotional about it and and you know for me to understand their relationship a bit better was was quite heartwarming actually and he showed me this footage and I realized actually that I'd not seen Michael on camera ever before um because you know video cameras and certainly smartphones didn't exist well video cameras may have existed but we weren't the kind of family that

made kind of home videos we just didn't have any you know so when we came to document the film I said to my parents you know right I need all footage of michael and they said we haven't got any you know so it was interesting to me to see michael um joking and conversing with people and and in fact you know climbing everest going through the kumbu icefall and stuff and um it was a pleasure to to the you know dave just brought so much to the table with regard to making the film. How prepared did you feel as a young man to see those videos, though, for the first time? And it's an, you know, that's a really, really powerful thing to happen, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm quite, you know, the reason that I wasn't shown them as a kid is obvious, I think, and I think the way in which my family, you know, handled Mike's death was, shown them as a kid is obvious, I think. And I think the way in which my family, you know, handled Mike's death was, I think they did, you know, as good a job as they could have done with me, age 10. You know, I think I was shielded from it. But it was not ignored. And it was kind of presented and described to me in ways that were easier for a young child to understand. I'm sure they had probably seen this footage,

but I was not shown it because of my age. And then, of course, Dave and I don't know each other, so he had no reason to kind of reach out and say... And you've got cameras on you as well when you meet him and stuff. I did want to ask you about that, actually, because obviously a lot of people will know you for being the star, one of the stars of Maiden Chelsea, and a person with an understanding

of that kind of constructed reality type of TV. So did that make it easier to make this documentary or harder because maybe you felt that you kind of had to perform as Spencer Matthews sometimes? I think this documentary was incredibly personal and very real to me, you know, and I'm not suggesting that other stuff, you know, isn't real, but it's certainly not real in the same way as this was.

And taking the decision to document the journey was the second big decision that we had to take. You know, firstly, we were thinking, you know, do we try to recover Mike's body, you know, with and become comfortable with the risks associated with that mission one? And do we document the journey? And the reason for documenting the journey was something that I pushed for, because I think, you know, it's not bothered me is the wrong way of putting it, but I've been uncomfortable, I suppose, with the fact that, you know, Michael died such a brave young man, age 22,

and he's not, you know, he's not known for any of that. You know, Bear Grylls became, or took back the record to be the youngest Brit to climb the summit, and not that either of them care about the record, but he's mentioned around that youthful, energetic character that managed to climb the mountain. And I feel that Michael's been kind of brushed under the rug, forgotten,

and that he was the most amazing young man that I certainly looked up to. And I just felt that by documenting the journey, I might be able to assist in giving him the legacy that I feel he deserves. Can you just tell us about Nims? Because Fee's mentioned that name already and he is somebody who actually arguably should also be much better known.

He is, is it a 14-peaker? Yes. Is it a really important title that? So Nims and his team hold the world record for having climbed the 14 highest mountains in the world in seven months. And he has... He made a film called 14 Peaks,

which I believe is on Netflix. And he, you know, is the most... You know, he's the most amazing climber, but he's a very interesting person as well, believes that anything is possible. Was he in the Gurkkhas he was in the gurkhas yeah and he he uh his physiology is just is just quite different to to kind of western climbers in general but also just just people his you know his ability to i think if you were to measure it he jumps on that kind of altitude bike in the altitude center that you can visit here in London. And it monitors your ability to function at a certain altitude,

kind of under duress, I suppose. Yeah. And yeah, he's off the charts, as are his whole team. And actually part of becoming comfortable with the risk, again, to do this was only if we could have the, you know, the best people in the world helping us on that mountain. And that is without a doubt Nim's and his team. Just before we go to some ad breaks,

do you want to just explain the difficulties of climbing to the peak of Everest? Because you've mentioned the altitude there, the need for your physiology to be different or acclimatised. I mean, it is mind-boggling how little man is meant to be at the top of that mountain, isn't it? Yes, I mean, I did not summit Everest, just for the record. Because you couldn't? Well, I wasn't there for that reason. My mother would not be in any way happy with me doing that.

But also your wife, you'd just had your third child, hadn't you, when you set off on the expedition all of the above wife wife kids it seems a very unnecessary risk for me to put myself through that to get closer to michael who's dead you know who's kind of it just it felt um bear grills gave me that advice he just said listen don't go any further than base camp you know what would be the point of that um but no i mean yeah humans even on oxygen um can't sustain life above 8 000 meters it is just a question of time you know until until you die at that altitude so just explain for those of us who are never going to go there what it feels like to be at base camp what does that do to your system the air is very

thin you know you're you're just shy of of the summit of Kilimanjaro at base camp. I was there for four and a half weeks. It's just a really long time to be at altitude. You know, you go slow and steady into base camp. The hike takes about eight days to get to base camp. And then once you're there, there's no life or, you know, animals or anything like that. It's a glacier. You're on a physical, you know, animals or anything like that. It's a glacier. You're on a physical, you know, moving glacier.

It's, you know, beyond minus 20 at night and pretty uncomfortable and the ground is moving all around you and there's very little comfort. But also it's more just the air that you breathe is the biggest difference. You know, you can't physically put yourself through anything really.

If you went for a walk, you would be exhausted, you know, and that is just, you know, unassistedassisted you know with no oxygen living at base camp is um it is uh yeah you know you're pretty high up spencer matthews is our guest this afternoon talking about his search to find michael his brother's body uh on near the summit of everest uh one of the things that you do mention a couple of times in the documentary, Spencer, is how your family is almost defined by a kind of gung-ho spirit. You know, you're a very get up and go kind of a family. But what does a death in the family like this do to that spirit? I mean, it certainly dents it for a period. I think it would be very difficult, you know,

being a parent myself now. You know, I've thought about this, I was thinking about it when I was at base camp, you know, if Theodore or Otto or Gigi, you know, grow up to say, hey, you know, I want to climb Everest, what's that going to feel like? Would you let them? I just think it's really difficult to stand in the way of,

you know, your kids' dreams and ambitions. And if they are adventurous, that's the kind of thing they want to do, you'd just be thankful, I think, in the case of Everest, that it is more commercialised now, it is safer, it's more accessible. But having said that, you know, seven people lose their life every year on everest and you know natural disasters take place all of the time up there and kill people every year so you know it's it's um i don't know

i think we'll cross that bridge when and if we come to it to be honest how should i put it to you it might just be in their genes might it yeah um it's a difficult thing though isn't it i spoke to to bear about this as well just you know with with you know he has a son who's a base jumper and he just you know constantly what does that mean it's jumping off um uh buildings with a parachute so you're not jumping out of a plane he jumps off bridges and you know other static objects static objects yeah which is and it's really dangerous you know and i said to him you know how does it feel that your son is obviously taking after you? Yeah, yeah. You know, doing all this stuff.

And he just said, you've got to let them live, you know. But does what happened to Michael change your notion of what makes a hero? Ooh. I mean, it's a really complicated question, isn't it? Michael is obviously still a hero to me. And, you know, whenever I'm putting myself through, you know, physically challenging feasts in an attempt to raise money, you know, for the Michael Matthews Foundation,

I have him on my shoulder, you know. So whether he's kind of alive or dead in a sense, you know, he is still a hero to me. So I don't, I don't, it's a very hard thing to answer. Oh, it's an enormous question. Yes. So sorry about that. I probably didn't do a great job no don't apologize at all i tell you what a lot of people who are listening to this spencer might think why aren't we talking more about what actually happens in the documentary and it is because i think people need to watch the documentary

don't they so if we talked about every single step of the way then that would be taking away some of the impact of it but it is definitely worth mentioning more about the Sherpas, isn't it? Because nobody would be able to get up the mountain if they didn't have the help of the Sherpas. And of course, a lot of them have died on the mountain too, haven't they? I think the Sherpa community is so incredible. And having spent time, you know, on the mountain mountain and it's almost a you know some it feels far more spiritual than say a western culture um you know we were blessed in the tengboche monastery on the way up to to everest um by um uh by some incredible uh uh buddhists and and and it's it's just such an incredible community and And the Sherpas are, you know, in many ways as skilled as NIMS.

You know, some of them have summited Everest, you know, 16, 17 times. And, you know, they are truly remarkable, you know, to be around. And I feel, you know, grateful for having spent time with them. Well, it's hard for you to tell, I suppose. And I feel, you know, grateful for having spent time with them. Well, it's hard for you to tell, I suppose, but what do you think they make of Western climbers coming over and trying to do it too? I mean, it's a difficult thing to answer as well.

I mean, for them, it's a job as well as a lifestyle. They are desperately poor, aren't they, a lot of these people? We purposefully, you know, went with, you know, Nims and his elite team who are well paid in comparison to perhaps some of the rest of the Sherpa community. I honestly would not be the best person to ask about that, but Nims looks after his Sherpas very well and they are rewarded relatively handsomely, I think, compared to other Sherpas very well and they are rewarded

relatively handsomely I think compared to other Sherpas. We've got a lovely email actually here Spencer from somebody who has seen the film and it's from Hannah who says I wanted to tell Spencer how moving his documentary was back in 2000 I went on a trip to Antarctica clutching the diary of my great great uncle who also died in his 20s

he fell down a crevasse now I didn't know him but i wanted to understand his desire to explore the unexplored watching your journey took me back to my own emotional trip and without giving away any ending i was really in bits by the credits what a story not just for your own family but for all those who see everest as the final resting place of their loved ones so um there's clearly a real emotional link there from Hannah, and I find that really interesting, that although she obviously didn't know her great-great-uncle,

she still felt that really weird family link to his journey and how it ended. It's interesting that, isn't it? I think so, yeah. I think there's something in the film as well for everyone, any parents, any sibling, anyone who has suffered loss um i think i think you know that there may be something um there for you in the film and of course it's it's again you know one of the main reasons for making the film was so that there could be some kind of emotional connection to uh michael but also you know, to anyone that has suffered, you know, loss in their family.

Do you think you came back a rather different person? There were times on the mountain that felt, you know, emotionally quite tough. And I think, you know, I obviously expected to miss my children and my wife. But, you know, little things that you take for granted were certainly missed on the mountain. And, yeah, you know, I think it's an important story that family is everything. You know, it's a story about, you know know devastating loss but but brotherly love um and you know i i yeah you know you come back feeling uh i felt emotionally quite quite different you know but even my my feelings about the the loss had changed you know back when i was a young

teenager dealing with michael's death was um something that I probably didn't do as well as I could have you know I abused alcohol to excess for for many years and I've never really made the link between the two but being sober now thinking about it you know there probably was quite a strong link to not processing the grief at the time and you know I always always just felt this great deal of resentment and kind of almost anger about how Mike came to die. And, you know, being on the mountain and understanding it a bit more and being amongst climbers who were very fearful of their own journey and kind of understanding it better certainly helped me to process his death differently. um certainly helped me to process his death differently and you know now i look at photos of mike in the house and when i used to feel um you know a bit a bit of kind of as i said resentment or a bit upset about it i i now feel uh differently you know i smile at pictures of mike now there are lovely pictures of you and him actually because there is quite an age gap between

the two of you. But some of the photographs that you've allowed us to see just as viewers in the documentary are just really lovely big brother, little brother ones, aren't they? Yeah, he was, as I understand it, the sibling that wanted my parents to have another kid the most, so that he could have a little brother. He was desperate for a little brother and obviously he got me. And, you know, we were described as twins separated by time and we we looked very similar

and had you know similar taste despite the age gap and you know mike would always be the one that tied up my other brother you know so that i could beat him up type thing and like we were always a little team um that's lovely yeah and uh and yeah you know so so for, I don't know, he was everything I wanted to be. Yeah. It is a really amazing documentary. What next for you? Oh, my goodness. I don't know.

I have a business to focus on and grow called Clean Co, which I was doing kind of before this. But just back to work, I suppose. Back to work. You know, podcasting and bits and bobs and we'll see. Any more made in Chelsea? I think the answer's no. 30 years on. Ah, well, you know, I doubt it.

You wouldn't ever do old in Chelsea. Yeah, because you could have like... Middle-aged in Chelsea. Sheltered housing in Chelsea. Yes, indeed. No, I think the ship has sailed, I believe. Yes. Well, there are those of us who have fond-ish memories of you, Spencer. The ish, I think, is absolutely the case.

Spencer Matthews talking about the documentary that he has made is called Finding Michael. It's available on Disney+. And, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I'd never, as I said in the interview, I'd never seen Maiden Chelsea. So I didn't come to watching Spencer Matthews with any kind of preconceptions. So I just saw in that documentary,

actually quite a thoughtful young man trying to battle with very difficult, incredibly delayed grief, actually. But yeah, he does make a point that his family were of the sort of stiff upper lip variety. I'm not sure whether they've all changed as much as he has. So I don't actually know whether they are able to talk freely. I mean, as a parent, I think it's just a plain fact, isn't it, that I don't see how you can get over the death of a child.

I really don't. And I suspect most people probably. And his mum in the film. So his father's not in the film at all, but his mum is incredibly circumspect when she's interviewed because she's obviously just in so much pain whenever she talks about Michael, even now. And there isn't a time at which you would stop

grieving your child because you would always see in his contemporaries and in the rest of your family the shadow of where he would have been how old he would have been it's just a terrible thing I think it's also very difficult for people as they get older and they have their own children to keep their their late sibling alive to those people who are very dear to them, who never met them because they were unfortunately they died before they were born. And they're such a significant factor in your life and in your head, but don't mean anything to people who obviously are very dear to you now. So it's I don't know, it's just very it's very difficult. obviously are very dear to you now. So it's, I don't know, it's just very difficult.

It's a really interesting documentary if, like me, you've never been to Nepal, don't know anything about extreme challenges like climbing Everest. I think there's a sort of individual who wants to do that sort of thing, isn't there? And I do admire them. I could never do anything like that. And there are huge risks involved in doing so and you take other people along with you of course you need the expertise

of sherpas and people who are closer to being able to live in as spencer said it's it's that the air it's just very difficult to live in if you're not used to it. It's really challenging. Yeah, it didn't change my mind about anything to do with mountaineering or that kind of heroic status. I just think it has always, always brought with it a sense of jeopardy. The glory doesn't outweigh that jeopardy, and the tragedy that often ensues is just, I don't know, it's just a very I mean I'll say, you know it's very difficult to balance that equation

It is, I was wittering on earlier about, because I was thinking about this coronation coming up, that the last coronation was distinguished by the announcement that Sir Edmund Hillary had had summited, as we now say, Everest for the first time, I know he wasn't British he was from New Zealand, but he was he was, I think quite weirdly, he was on top of Everest for the first time. I know he wasn't British, he was from New Zealand.

But he was, I think quite weirdly, he was on top of Everest with a Union flag though, wasn't he? Do you remember that image? Yes. I don't quite know why he didn't fly a New Zealand flag, thinking about it. But anyway, perhaps he did, but in the images we saw, he had a Union Jack.

Anyway, the announcement that they'd climbed Everest. Isn't this weird? It's like trying to use your Nectar card and waitress. What's going on? Somebody listening will know much more about this than we do, clearly. But, I mean, it was always said that he was the first person, he and his team, Sherpa Tenzing and the other people who were with him, were the first people to climb Everest. But we don't know that, do we?

We can't possibly assume that no one had ever climbed it before, can we? I don't know. Well, because like you, I haven't been interested enough in that area of mountaineering. That was the first recorded. Yes, but I wonder whether any of the local community thought that, you know, that's a very high mountain. I'm going to see if I can survive at the top of that. I suspect not. No, we don't know, do we? No, we don't. But, you you know it would be lovely if somebody's got expertise and you can fill in all our rather large gaps just a quick one because we have to go

um there is a i think this is the most times letter i've ever seen in the times um there was a brief flurry of interest in eating squirrels across the nation wasn't there well well this is because uh according to Russian propaganda, this great nation is so on its knees with lack of food and we are just living in such poverty, we've taken to eating squirrels. Yeah, so this is from a man called Vernon, who's in Somerset, and the headline is Squirrel Surprise.

My wife and I served up homemade squirrel pate for supper years ago, and our guests loved it. One guest asked for the nature of the dish and there was a lull in the conversation when they learned they'd just eaten grey squirrel until one lady guest piped up, how wonderful, I haven't had squirrel since we were in Burma. There we are. So just a slice of life there from the letters page of The Times. Now, join us tomorrow, why don't you? There's a tube strike in central London, so if I don't get a wiggle on,

I'll have to leave round about now in order to get back to where I currently am. Is it worth me going home? Yes, it is. Goodbye. Beanie. Well, I'd ask you to come and stay, but you'd say something nasty about my house, so I'm not going to.

So I'm going to walk to work tomorrow morning, so I'll be full of bounce, full of cheer, and if I see any squirrels along the way, I'm going to bring them in and we can have a little bit of squirrel pate. Do you want to make pate? Do you want... You've got to have a lot of squirrels

to make some squirrel pate. And if you're just making it from a squirrel liver, then how many squirrel livers do you need? That's a question I've never, ever thought I'd ask. We have asked the audience a couple of questions there. Are we really certain Sir Edmund Hillary was the first person to climb Everest? And how many squirrel livers would you need for a squirrel pâté? Over to you you have been listening to Off Air

with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this,

but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, three till five on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.