Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Level 9 woo woo (with Richard Dawkins)

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Jane M has had a bumpy journey back from sipping champagne at Roland-Garros, while Fi's had a bumpy experience with some sub-par paving —naturally. The two chat tennis-induced wees, Lewes, and undoing life mistakes. Plus, put your feminist ears aside for this one: Tom Whipple, science editor at The Times, speaks with biologist Richard Dawkins about his book 'The Genetic Book of the Dead'. If you want to contribute to our playlist, you can do that here: Off Air with Jane & Fi: Official Playlist - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=9QZ7asvjQv2Zj4yaqP2P1Q If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] The next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession. Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And I suppose what I can't work out is how long you should ever give anything before you say it's not working. Well yeah, I mean I don't give things very long at all. I've always got one foot half out the door, you know that. I might stick around a bit too long there, Jane. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Thomas Fudge's Biscuits. We've got a bit of a reputation, haven't we Jane? Our desk here at Times Towers is pretty famous

for having the most delicious sweet treats in the office. Yep, guilty as charged. But we're not into any old treats, no sir. Only the most elevated biscuit makes the grade. Because we're so classy. May we introduce you to Thomas Fudgers, born from the expert British craftsmanship of inventive Dorset bakers in 1916.

Thomas Fudgers's Florentines are an indulgent blend of Moorish caramel, exquisite almonds and luscious fruits draped in silky smooth Belgian chocolate. You've said a few key words there Fee. Exquisite, Moorish, exactly the way my colleagues would describe me I'm sure. Did you say sophisticated? I didn't but I can. Just like the biscuits you're very sophisticated darling and like you Thomas Fudges believes that indulgence is an art form and it should be done properly or not at all Jane. I concur. Thomas Fudges.

Hats off to remarkable biscuits. I say it all the time, it's like breathing, but I do do a lot of bad things, so... Shocking news, shocking news. But I do find it easier the older I get to just stop, you know, to really properly pull the drawbridge up on the sorrys, the sorry and the apologetic female behaviour and actually had to do it today over some paving which shows the difference in our lives because J.Mill Kerens has just returned on the Eurostar from witnessing some very fine tennis at Roland Garros and I've taken a delivery of some rather substandard paving that I'm going to have to try and do something with and I did have to explain to the guy, he's a very nice guy, but the paving's gone wrong

already and hasn't even been laid. Is it crazy? It's not crazy, it's not crazy enough. Apparently crazy paving is back. So if you've got some cracks in your new paving maybe you're just on trend. If I was building some council offices in 1974 it would really work, I'm not, but I did have to say to him look it's just out of my skill set this, you know, you're the expert on the paving, I've got to go and do some radio stuff, I just, we're never going to meet, my knowledge bank is just never going to be able to meet yours. I'm going to have to trust you on this, but that's wrong. That's all I know, that's wrong. But I think my younger self would have

started the whole thing by saying, I'm really sorry, I've got this wrong. Instead of actually being able to say, look, this is a meeting of minds, it's a transaction and something's gone wrong. Not at my end. So I felt a little bit better and then I just felt terrified. How much wrong paving have you got? A lot. I know. Anyway look. On the subject of services the clay tennis is very good. Yeah I think the listener will immediately be thinking yeah I'm really sorry about that for you but move on from it and let's hear about Roland Gales. So when I left you yesterday I dashed downstairs, got my little overnight bag, tripped off to St Pancras station which was heaving because it's half term. Good lord there were

a lot of people. I generally find the Eurostar much the easiest way to travel because you don't have to check in more than an hour in advance and then you're on, you know, usually on time. Unfortunately there was an hour and a half delay yesterday because we stopped somewhere in Deepers Kent because they had to inspect the train. Oh, OK. I don't know. So I was an hour and a half late getting into Paris. There's lots of people trying to leave the UK. Who knows, there was just some high-vis action going on outside. But I got to Paris at 7pm, jumped in a Jolla taxi,

hoofed it over to Roland Garros, got there at quarter to eight, in time to chuck some champagne down my neck, a little bit of lovely food in a box, and then the professionals walked out at 8.15, watched three sets, drunk a bit more champagne. And who were they? So it was Nader, who you won't probably have heard of because he is 138th in the world.

But he was playing Ruder, who is Danish and is number eight in the world. Yeah, Rune, sorry, not Runa. Runa, Runa. And the scoreline didn't really reflect how well young Narva did because he did put up a good fight for someone who is 138th in the world. But he did lose in three sets, but there were a lot of set points in the second set which was very fun. It was just a lovely evening and then we went to a little Marriott hotel. I slept for about five hours, I got up, chucked some coffee down my neck, ate a croissant, got back on the Eurostar which was on time and walked

into the office at about 11am. Well you look very good on it. If you hadn't told me all of that I would have thought that you're just toothed up up from Brighton and you know. Which is actually not that much more difficult a journey sometimes. I bet sometimes it's much worse. Might be easier to give you from pay. Now I also know this is a very unfair question to ask of somebody who has been entertained royally by sponsors so I just put that out there. Isn't tennis one of those weird things where it's actually much better to watch on the television? Hmm, I don't know. It depends who's playing, I think. It depends who's playing.

So the match that I was watching yesterday was good, but it wasn't a kind of, you know, Grand Slam final level match. So actually it was nice being in the stadium, watching it, being able to look at the funny influencers, you know, the other people, deal with people trying to take my friend's seats whenever they got up. You know, there's a whole experience of it. I do think those amazing matches between some top, top, top level players probably are best on telly because you get all the camera angles. Yeah. So we were lucky enough, this is me and my ex-husband, to be able to watch,

well we were invited back in the BBC days, the amazing Roger Federer, Rafferner, Daphne at Wimbledon. Oh wow. We happened upon that. And it was really amazing, the atmosphere was really great and all of that kind of stuff. But we were in where the BBC puts you which isn't the Royal Box it's halfway down the court you're kind of high up but behind an umpire's chair. Okay that's quite a good spot like sort of in the middle.

It is a good spot and it's where you have to do that complete head turn all the time, all the time especially on the very fast service but I was quite pregnant at the time Jane like about seven months pregnant and you know quite large by then and just in desperate need of a wee all the time and it was such a long match. Yeah and you can only go for a wee when sort of is it once every three games they let you have a wee? And I mean it was such an amazing event to be part of but we got to the, I think it must

have been the fourth set and I genuinely thought that Federer was gonna win so I did have to say to Rick you know I think we're just gonna have to miss the end of this because it's just too it was just too uncomfortable and also it was just a real pain for everybody you know excuse me excuse me excuse I'm so sorry excuse me I'm gonna get it out so I think everybody was quite pleased when you know the pregnant woman went but we drove back through London and it was really really empty and we realised that the whole world was watching this incredible game and it was still going on by the time we got all the way back to Hackney to rescue child number one from a very very patient neighbour

who had been looking after him for the day. But it's just it's always stuck in my mind as a as a kind of do know what, it's amazing to... Where were you when that final thought... So, so lucky to be invited to things like that, but actually just it would have been better for everybody if we'd just stayed at home and watched it on the television. And I've not been to a live tennis match since actually. I think I might have a triggered bladder. But I think that's the thing as well, don't you think? When you sit down, if you go and see anything, cinema, sit down gig, whatever it is,

if you are right in the middle of the stalls or a stand, it doesn't matter if your bladder is the driest, emptiest organ in your body, you still feel like you need a wee. It's just a thing. Or at least you start worrying that you might. Yes, and then it just takes over. Yeah, I get it just before I board a plane as well. Yes oh no definitely. Don't let me go to the back because we haven't taken off yet. And when there's a big queue and yeah all of that. I'm in a

middle seat and all those things. Preemptive wee anxiety. I didn't have that last night though I was obviously very dehydrated still for my weekend in Berlin. I didn't have that last night though, I was obviously very dehydrated still for my weekend in Berlin. I think it might take about seven weeks for me to rehydrate properly. It's a very bouncy schedule that you have, isn't it? Yeah, and actually I was meant to, I'm going home for the weekend in Brighton, which is the first weekend I've been home in about five weeks, I'm very excited about it. I was then meant to go on a little travel trip next week to write a travel piece but I now can't go in it because I have to go to France to do an interview instead on Sunday. So yes, the passport

is getting a flex right now. It is. Yeah. So sorry, you were going to go to, where were you going to go for the weekend? I was going to go, well no, the first couple of days next week I was meant to go to Corfu but now I can't. I can go. I can go. I'll see if they can do a swap in swap out. Who will do the show? Jane could do it on her own. Do you know what? We've had such a revolving plinth of talent this week so Martha Lane Fox on yesterday and the day before and it's Tom Whipple today. So just to warn the listeners that it's a Tom Whipple interview with Richard Dawkins that you're going to hear in this podcast. So you have to prepare yourself for that because it's two gentlemen. Two men talking.

Yep, and there's not a Fia or a Jane in it. Just interject a little bit, won't you? Well, no, it's already been done. Oh, it's been done. Because Tom fixed it because he is the science correspondent for The Times, with the help of Abel Eve as well, of course. But it was quite late at night last night. It was outside my shift, my meter was off. You were having your designated hours before you were allowed to go back on shift.

Exactly that. Which we discussed. I was not choosing paving. In spite of it being two men talking, I'm actually very excited to listen to it because I love Tom Whipple and Richard Dawkins. It's interesting. So I'm excited for that. I know, it'll be absolutely cracking. Yeah, it will be cracking. I'll put aside my feminist ears for a moment.

Well, or you could just play it at 1.5 and such. That'll be fun! Okay, now. We had a really interesting email. well we have many interesting emails, but this was top of the pile for me today from Ashley and Ashley has apologised for making it a little bit longer than anticipated but I think every sentence is worth it Ashley, thank you so much. Hi Jane, Fee and Jamal, my ears pricked up when I heard Jane M discussing her support of restorative justice in Wednesday's podcast,

as I work for a charity that uses these principles in working with people convicted of sexual offences. We're a community-based restorative justice charity called Circles Southeast, and our primary aim is no more victims. We deliver a number of projects using restorative principles to address and prevent harm caused by sexual violence. I was interested when Jane M said it's been shown that you can't rehabilitate sex offenders because one of our services called Circles of Support and Accountability has been shown to have a really promising impact on recidivism rates and factors associated with reoffending, which include social isolation,

emotional loneliness and lack of community connection. The great thing, says Ashley, about Circles of Support and and accountability is that, as the title suggests, it's about offering support while also holding people to account for their behaviour and working closely with police and probation for monitoring risk and risk management. So she says, if any of you lovely podcasters or the listeners are interested, there are circles projects all over the country and information can be found by looking up Circles UK where you can see a list of local providers. We in the southeast

which is London, Kent, Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire are always seeking new volunteers. No experience necessary we just want committed open-minded compassionate people who want to contribute to safer communities so please do look us up. It's so interesting and I think this, I mean, I apologise for not knowing that actually, that there was research being done showing that you can, you know, have a really positive impact on recidivism rates. But it makes sense to me because I think one of the most important issues in reoffending is having a sense of belonging. And you have a stake in society, you know,

which prevents you from reoffending. But that's a very difficult one with sex offences because how do you belong to a community that is anxious about accepting you back because of the rates of reoffending? That's one of the kind of really difficult sort of conflicts and dichotomies to solve with that. But it actually goes on to say, on the discussion topic of chemical cast castration and similar interventions we do work with some individuals who have been convicted of sex offences who voluntarily take anti-libidinol medication prescribed by a specialist. This is shown to be really effective in helping those who are highly sexually preoccupied to reduce their sexual thoughts and feelings allowing them the space to address some of

the underlying issues which have driven their past behaviour. However, says Ashley, like anything, there isn't a simple fix for this sort of destructive behaviour and if we focus purely on medical intervention this is unlikely to be the solution for most. Not all individuals who commit sexual offences are driven by sexual preoccupations or high levels of sexual drive. When people are doing any sort of destructive behaviour there there will be various drivers. And with sexual offending, we also need to think about the attitudes driving the behaviour as what the offending is giving them that they do not feel able to achieve in pro-social ways. We need to look at how we can give people safe opportunities to build good lives and social capital,

meaning they have something worthwhile in their lives that they want to maintain. Well, I say amen to all of that, Ashley, and thank you for such an incredibly thoughtful and informative email. And I will certainly be looking up Circles South East. I think so many, so many good points made there. That point about shame is interesting, isn't it? Because I think you can walk into a new environment and tell people that you are a convicted criminal and you can say I took to burglary, I fully understand that I shouldn't have done, I've made my amends, I understand what's happened to the victims and obviously I'm just using burglary as an example. I think it is still incredibly difficult for somebody to walk into a new environment and say, I'm a convicted sex offender, and I understand what I did to my victims

and stuff. It's not a conversation that anybody really wants to have. And a lot of people are fearful of having. And a lot of people, you know, rightly, I think, immediately feel that you've taken something away from somebody in such a terrible way that there is a different level of forgiveness available to you. It's a massive, massive problem. But I love what Ashley says about people voluntarily taking chemical castration. I think it's really important to talk more about that. Because surely it's only logical that if you know that there's something out there that will help you you're more likely to you know to go in search of the help yeah so the

more we talk about that and say look this is happening to a lot of people and actually you might be able to not solve your problems in your head but you might be able to use something that enables you to understand your problems yeah to get to a place where you can work on them. Yeah and but your point about shame is such a good one because shame is also one of the, it's a big driver in reoffending because you know we all know about the shame spiral you know which kind of cuts you off and you know you then more isolated and you're more likely to reoffend because you don't feel like you've got anything positive to bring. So yeah, I think I just I'm really interested in what Circles Sanities are doing.

Ashley, thank you for bringing it to our attention and well done on all of the incredible work you sounded doing. Yes. So many very interesting examples of moving house. So there are just two piles being made. There really are. You've got to live in a city, why on earth would you head off into the countryside and people who you can literally as you're reading the email feel the exhalation of relief. They've moved out and they're smelling the fresh air. This is from Naomi and Lewis, now that's your neck of the woods. Why do people rave about Lewis? Because they do rave about Lewis. They really do rave about Lewis. So it is a beautiful kind of old town in the middle of gorgeous rolling Sussex countryside.

It's quite quirky. It's got... How quirky? Wind chimes? Beyond wind chimes? Beyond wind chimes. You know that they're quite famous for their bonfire night parade where they sort of build effigies and burn them. There is definitely a kind of, yeah I would say it's level nine woo in Lewis. Dave Rowntree from Blur stood to represent Lewis in Parliament didn't he? And he's on the council. Mid Sussex, I think, which might include Lewis. I just make that association. I've only been to Lewis once and it was a rather dampened Dreech day and I think we just didn't quite, we didn't capture the essence of it at all.

But it's really really it is renowned. It is a renowned place. Yeah great bakeries, close to the coast, really good schools. I know people who've moved there, they're very good schools. It's a very nice quality of life. Yeah well Naomi loves it. If you're after somewhere with a wonderful Lido Hills for dog walks close enough to Brighton and London, Lewis is for you. A beautiful market town, history of Thomas Payne, Anne of Cleves and a castle. Anne of Cleves. My mum loved Anne of Cleves House. You might need to come on a day trip to Lewis. Yes I think so. Also has a vibrant creative scene and lovely restaurants. Check out Dill and importantly a community feel without the nosiness of a small village. As you can see we love it.

We moved from Greenwich and I haven't regretted it one bit. Do come and visit, you will be drawn in for sure. That's an invitation I'd absolutely love to accept. Maybe we could do a little day out with me and Jane at the front of the bus with our legs dangling. And I love that a community feel without the nosiness of a small village, that's a very fine line. Do you know, I've got a feeling there might be quite a high concentration of our fair listeners in Lewis. I've just got a feeling. Anna Murphy, our esteemed fashion director at the Times, did a little book talk for when her book came out last year at a literary festival in Lewis and she asked me if I would come along and wield the microphone and ask her questions. And it was jam-packed with Anna Murphy Acolytes, huge fan base in Lewis. I've just got a feeling the Venn diagram might have quite

a lot of crossover with Ewan Garvey's fans as well. Well it sounds lovely. I reckon you can pack out at least a medium-sized Churchill. Woof! That is our ambition and preferably on a dark night as well. A flint cupboard. Yes. We like to open regional theatres on dark nights. On dark, wintry nights. I think we can sort this. Relocating from the Third Age comes in from Claire, long-time listener, first-time emailer. Always very welcome.

Dear Jane and Fian Jamal, your discussion about relocating and later life resonated with me as that is just what I, along with husband and cat, have recently done. In November last year we upsticked from Newport in East Wales where we'd live for over 30 years and moved to Fishguard in Pembrokeshire. Now Fishguard is a small town it's got most of the essentials doctor dentist post office pubs cultural and social scene festivals I think festivals is the way forward isn't it for folk jazz and literature cinema theatre and a converted chapel groups for most hobbies and literature, cinema, theatre and a converted chapel,

groups for most hobbies and volunteering groups for litter picking, community garden, etc. etc. And Milkwood, the filming of Under Milkwood at Lowerton Harbour in the early 1970s is one of the parts of local history very much celebrated. And Claire started sea swimming in January. Oh, Claire, very bold. Yep, all my Mary. Claire will understand that if she's been listening for a long time. Claire now goes most days and you can see the sea every day and walk the coastal path. You see, that does sound really, really gorgeous but quite a few people have noted it's the feeling

of what happens if it doesn't work out that's the problem. Yeah well exactly Susan's on the opposite side of the pile saying that she was listening to Wednesday show hearing from a listener who intends moving back to London when retired very similar to Susan's plans in her late 50s has lived in a village for the past 30 years and on Monday is moving to a city. Susan said she's excited to start the next phase of life. It's been prompted sadly by the death of her husband two years ago and her parents who lived a few doors down could all die within weeks of each other so I'm sorry to hear what a tough time that's been Susan. She says it's been unimaginably stressful and

she's still grieving but life has to go on and she is now looking forward to the buzz of people, being able to walk to shops, cafes, visiting theatres, art galleries, seeing live music all without having to drive miles. I'll still be within an hour's drive with my friends but I'm hoping to make lots more. Susan says I see many older people in the village becoming more isolated as they age. The world shrinks as they feel less inclined to drive any distance. Public transport is very intermittent and when they give up driving completely they become reliant on others. For visits to the doctors etc they become insular, topics of conversation are limited and everyone knows everyone's business. I want to age differently to that, says Susan, I want to stay independent.

Having no children certainly helps and curious about life. I want to be able to sit and watch the tourists anonymously. I want to be able to hop on the train to London for quick visits, to walk my dogs around new areas and not the same boring brown muddy fields, having access to a wide variety of shops, especially fruit and veg on the regular market, and so much more. A couple of friends not much older than me are already slipping into an old age mentality, says Susan, and they've said, but what if you don't like it? My answer is, but what if I do? And what is the worst that can happen? If after a couple of years I decide it's not for me I move again. Knowing how quickly your life can

change I'm determined to cram in as much as I can while I can and not just drift along waiting for it to happen. And Susan I love this kicker to your email. Off to Japan in a couple of weeks too. You're so bold. I love you, Susan. Well done on all of it. But also to have the energy after so much grief I think is extraordinary. So good on you and I hope that you're getting a lot from that anonymity because actually so many people feel that that's the last place that they want to go to when they're grieving. They want to be amongst people who just completely know them. So that's bold and of course that's going to work for some people. So well done you. I do really like her attitude as well of what if I do like it and what's the worst

that can happen. I was saying to a younger friend of mine the other day, who was in a bit of two minds about, really fortunately fortunately, offered two great jobs and was sort of, you know, really going round and round his head about it, like, what if I make the wrong choice? And I said, well, nothing can't be undone. You know, as I was sitting there being, you know, aged wise woman, I mean, it's about, oh, hold on, seven years younger than me. But I was thinking, nothing can't be undone. And both of these people want you. And, you know will you will choose the right one You know based off your gut instinct and also the AI generated pros and cons list that he drew up for himself

But nothing can't be undone. Oh, I don't know. I've got a feeling that so much Can't be done. I think I think the problem with the retirement thing is funds for an awful lot of people They actually genuinely wouldn't be able to afford to do two moves. Because in this country, moving house is just insane. Stamp duty, all of that type of stuff, you know, it's just a lot. It's a lot, a lot, a lot. And I suppose what I can't work out is how long you should ever give anything before you say it's not working. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't give things very long at all.

I've always got one foot half out the door, you know that. I might stick around a bit too long there Jane, and that may be one of the many differences between us. Are we allowed to know the exotic destination and person involved in your French trip or is it super super super secret? I can't tell you right now. Could you give us a clue? Please, because we're very nice and we're very trustworthy and we won't tell anybody, will we? He's known... He's known. He's known. He's known. He's a British man, it's like guess who.

Yes, this is great. He's a British man. Yeah. Under 50? Hmm, possibly just. Under 50? Hmm, possibly just. In acting? No. You've had him on the live show and the podcast. Ooh, a British man living in France. I think I know who it is kids, but we'll find out. When will that be published?

Well, I'll be talking about it with you in the show two weeks today. Okay, so that's not too long to wait. I think you can live. Yep, that's fantastic. Any more questions that I can't answer? No, no, that's it. That's it. Now, please settle back everybody, it's two men talking about important things.

Take it away. With his book The Selfish Gene, Richard Dawkins introduced hundreds of thousands to Darwin, to evolution and to Dawkins himself with a genes-eye view of how evolution works. The 83 year old British evolutionary biologist and author went on to write about more than a dozen books about evolution and a couple possibly even more famously about God. Now 50 years on from his first book he's on genes, and has published the genetic book of the dead. I spoke to Richard and started by asking why he wrote it. It's pretty much a continuation of the selfish gene, as you say, that's 50 years ago.

The thesis is that any animal, including us, is a written record, a document document recording the environments in which our ancestors survived and passed on their genes. We can't actually read the book yet, only in rather crude form, but my conjecture is that the zoologist of the future, whom I call SOF, scientist of the future, will be able to read not only the bodies of animals but the genomes as well, and read them as an account of the environments in which the ancestors lived. And what would that mean? I mean, I think of myself as someone who's living in the 21st century. I'm perfectly adapted to being on

the radio and writing things, but what would my DNA say? It would be a palimpsest, it would be a succession of overwritten accounts of ancient worlds and then slightly less ancient worlds and then slightly more ancient worlds, and then slightly more recent worlds, etc. Because we are the product of a natural selection process which has been going on throughout geological time. And the earlier records are partly obliterated, but only partly. What does it mean that we're a palimpsest rather than a new book? How is the way in which I and other creaturesreeks have evolved differently than if you had just written on a blank piece of paper to design them for now?

Well, there are mistakes. We do have anomalies which wouldn't be there if we were designed from scratch. My favourite example is the laryngeal nerve, the recurrent laryngeal nerve, which takes a remarkable detail, especially in an animal like a brontosaurus or a giraffe, where it goes way, way down to the chest before turning, totaling right back up to the larynx. And that's a historical relic of our fish ancestors, when the most direct route of that nerve was straight from the brain to the gills. And that would have been what happened is that it got hooked around a major artery in the chest.

And as the mammalian neck lengthened, especially in a giraffe, the detour just got longer and longer. So this is a historical record, a kind of anomaly, which if you started from a with a clean drawing board, you wouldn't do. Are there any other examples from your book about, I mean, is this quite apart from anything else, there's a lot of great natural history writing in there, which tell me about the cuckoos. The cuckoos, well, cuckoos are great because they are, I mean, everybody knows what cuckoos do, they dump their eggs in other species' nests and they cash in on the parental instincts of the other species like reed warblers

or meadow pipets or whatever it is. But what is remarkable is that the eggs of the cuckoo mimic those of the host species. Well, that's good enough, but what's even better is that there are many different host species. I just mentioned reed warblers and meadowpippets. There are lots more. And a female cuckoo that lays an egg in a meadowpippet nest lays an egg that looks like a meadowpippet egg. A female cuckoo that lays an egg that looks like a meadow pipette egg. A female cuckoo that lays an egg in a reed warbler's nest, it looks like a reed warbler egg, but it's the same species of cuckoo. So somehow the same species of cuckoo manages to lay the different colors of eggs.

The answer to the riddle, it lies on what's not called the Y chromosome, but it's the same as the Y chromosome. As you know, in mammals, the male sex is the XY sex. The male sex is the sex that has the odd sex chromosome. The female has the same sex chromosome, both Xs. In birds, it's the other way around. So what we have here is lineages of female birds who imprint upon the nest that their mother laid the egg in.

And so a female that was reared in a meadowpippet nest chooses to lay her own eggs in a meadowpippet nest. And so you have a great cultural lineage of females, meadowpippet females, reed warbler females, et cetera, females. And if we assume that the egg coloration is coded on the Y chromosome, that would explain it because the Y chromosome has experience of nothing but medopipit, not nothing but, but back a long way, medopipit nests, or another Y chromosome would have experience of reed warbler nests. And so the possibility arises of accumulation of genes for making medopipit mimic eggs in one lineage of females and reed warbler mimic eggs in another lineage of females and because these lineages are culturally

imprinted upon the same host species, it works. Why did you decide to take this particular approach to writing about evolution? I mean you've got a, you had a diversion into God but you've got a sort of large section of books about evolution. I mean, you've got a, you had a diversion into God, but you've got a sort of large section of books about evolution. What do you think this adds and does differently that the others don't? The gene is the unit of natural selection. Natural selection is all about the differential survival

of genes. A lot of people get that wrong. And if you get that right, once you understand that, everything makes sense. And so I've had a kind of mission to try to propound this point. It's not my own, I mean, it's part of the neo-Darwinian synthesis of the 1930s and 40s, but the message of that never really quite possibly properly caught on.

And so in this, did you feel that this completes your task of doing it? If 50 years on you're still writing about the gene, have you failed? No, because if you actually look at what people are doing out in the field, if you go to the Serengeti or if you go to the Antarctic where people are actually working on animals in the field, they're all asking the question, how does this behaviour benefit the genes of the animal? That wasn't true 50 years ago. Does it help us in any way that we're a palimpsest, having all this genetic history knocking around? Might it ever, within our evolution, looking at it over an evolutionary period of time, does the existence

of adaptations to things in the past, is this ever a source material that can be drawn on in the future? Well, I suppose it possibly could. I mean, I don't know whether you're familiar with the discipline of Darwinian medicine, where Randy Nessie and George Williams wrote a book trying to encourage doctors to take a Darwinian view of their patients and of the pathogens that affect their patients and so I suppose that would be an example. The title of it and indeed the well the title of your tour was The Final Bow and

the title of the book feels sort of alarmingly elegiac as well. But I would notice this final bow, I went to see one of your final bows many months ago and you're still doing a final bow today at the Hay Festival. How final is this? And how serious are you about it? That only applied to America. It was my final bow in America. And do you have any other plans for books? Yes, I'm working on a book at the moment. Its provisional title is Tales from Heckel. Heckel was the German Darwin. I mean, he was a great admirer of Darwin. He was also, unlike Darwin, he was a great artist. And so the book is, each chapter begins with a

picture from Heckel and then it's a tale based upon the animal that he drew. He drew the most exquisite pictures of animals, especially protozoa. And so it's just a collection of essays inspired by the art of this zoologist artist. Oh, well, that sounds fabulous. And I'm pleased that it's not final in the book sense. I'm pleased you're still going. Looking back, though, over your career, what do you feel is happening in science now? When you look at, to get you expansive

as the elder statesman of science that you are, what's the state of the- I don't like the sound of that at all. I'll be less coy in my questioning then and maybe you can be less coy in your answering. How do you feel about how things are going on in the States? Well, I mean, it's appalling of course. I mean, thank goodness, it's only going to be four years. Presumably it's going to be only 24 years, but I mean, it is terrible. I mean, the man is a thug and a barbarian and illiterate and lazy and vain and all sorts of things.

It's truly terrible that he got elected twice. And yeah, I mean, but I mean, you don't need me to tell you that. knows that in this in this country Everybody outside America knows that but do you feel like so it feels like the arguments of the early noughties that you were At the front of the arguments about religion about creationism But atheism it feels like all of these things have Quietened down a bit, but there's some things slightly more certainly if you chat to Scientists in the's something slightly more, certainly if you chat to scientists in the States, something slightly more sort of fundamentals going on, and perhaps existential

scientists. Do you chat to your colleagues there? Yeah, there is an assault on science coming from two directions. I mean, it's coming on the one hand from the extreme right. I mean, Trump is raging a war on intellectual life generally, but science as well. I mean, appointing Robert Kennedy Jr. as the Minister of Health, I mean, an anti-vax fanatic and lunatic, it is not a science-friendly move. And the effect he's having on curtailing and cancelling scientific grants and things is just part of the general thuggery. But coming from the left, there's also an assault on science in the form of things like

the denial of the reality of sex and the preaching of the idea that your sex is what you feel it to be rather than what objective science tells you it is. So that there is an attack on science coming from both directions. Yeah, yeah. Leaving with something perhaps slightly more sort of whimsical from the book, I have a pet tortoise and you talk in the book about the history of these actually tortoises but also hippos. Explain to me what their palimpsest says about their sort of unusual paths. Well tortoises are remarkable because although it's true that quite a lot of animals having come out of the sea, I mean, our remote ancestor,

the lowest level of the palimpsest is in the sea. And then quite a lot of animals, having come out of the sea, a few million years later, truth back again. So the whales are an example, an extreme case, dugongs and manatees are another one, but there are lots of others less extreme, like sea lions and turtles, who have pretty much, well, turtles entirely went back to the sea, except they come back to lay their eggs. But tortoises are descended from

marine turtles, so the ancestry of tortoises is written in the sea as fish, then they came out of the sea as land animals, went back to the sea as turtles, and then returned to the land as land tortoises, including some desert tortoises, so that they've done a double doubling back, which is I think unique. It adds an ability to my daughter's Sophocles' life. Tom Whipple in conversation with Richard Dawkins and that was recorded because Richard was appearing at the Hay Festival. And that is where Jane Garvey has been. I've not, we've had a sighting of her, but she's not, she's not hoved into comms for you yet. So anything could have happened really. Just check behind those hay bales. She's only tiny.

If she's fallen down behind one of them, she might still be there. She might need your help, everybody. She might have tried a bit of wild swimming in the wild. No, she won't do that. She definitely won't have gone. She definitely won't. She absolutely won't have gone.

She might be in a tent, eating some cake and drinking some tea. Yeah, something like that would be much more appropriate. I always think that if Jane is ever going to do bathing, she genuinely would need one of those Victorian bathing huts, you know, that you wheel down to the shoreline and she will emerge, self-like and glorious from it. Garvey returns on Monday. Malks, it's always lovely to have you accompany.

Thank you very much indeed. I would just really, really like some of your energy, honestly. I mean it just took the wind out of my sails to try and get from Dolston to London Bridge this morning, whilst being difficult about paving. And here she is, she's swan-din on the Eurostar, smelling fabulous and looking radiant. Oh thanks. Goodbye. Goodbye.

Now get out of here, you young, flippity gibbet. Goodbye. Yes, now get out of here, you young, felipity gibbet. Goodbye. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4pm on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.