Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Like a Chelsea Pensioner at a rave (with Martin Freeman and Tony Schumacher)

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

Jane and Fi didn't win an award but that's ok, because they didn't want it anyway... not one bit. In this episode, they also share their non-negotiable respectable habits and what they want their tributes to look like. Plus, actor Martin Freeman and screenwriter Tony Schumacher speak to Fi about the second season of 'The Responder'. You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

She's asking for trouble. They probably would have done. Going out like that. Exactly. With all her blousy petals on show. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings.

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There's more to iPhone. Right, welcome to Off Air. It's Wednesday, the sun is beating down and summer has arrived unexpectedly and with no warning. But it won't last. Oh, stop it. Well, it won't. No, but also, I think you've just... I don't know what happened to you over the weekend.

I don't know whether you were just lolling around in your chamber during the periods of sunshine. But it was this hot and sunny on Saturday. Yeah, it was briefly. I think I forgot about that. It was the whole Saturday. It was gorgeous. I don't remember what I did. Anyway. I don't know, it's quite... I never stay in my bedroom, by the way. I never do that, even if I'm ill.

I always get up and go downstairs and wear a support garment. Do you? Yeah, I absolutely, I do that, even if I'm ill. I always get up and go downstairs and wear a support garment. Do you? Yeah, I absolutely, I cannot bear, even when I had COVID, I still got fully dressed. Make the bed? Yes. Shut the door behind you? All of those things.

Never, never linger in your chambers unless you have absolutely no other option. I think it's one of the great adult pleasures to occasionally go back to bed and have a bit of a nap in the afternoon. I love it. You've given in. No, not at all. I think it's the complete opposite.

So you were probably the same. I just could never do a slobbish lie-in as a teenager or a student. I was always up by 8.30. Were you? I didn't really stay in bed either. I was always up by 8.30. Were you? Yes, I always was. I didn't really stay in bed either. Never did that lolling around. So I'm with you on the getting up in the morning thing,

but I love going back to bed for a kip. And I think I have a Presbyterian streak because I've always thought no television before 7pm unless it's a state occasion. Yeah, no, I'm with you on that. I never, ever, ever, ever, ever have a drink before six. I mean, like to comical effect. Okay.

Watching the second hand. 17.59, she's standing hopefully by the clock. Just pouring it very... I think we've both established we're just incredibly respectable. Yes, in some ways. Do you ever feel it might break down? Well, we just run around having an orgy of disreputable behaviour. Well, I hope so. Maybe I'll be a really appalling resident of an old folk's home. Well, it would be good, wouldn't it, to just start a bit of a female chasm of

inappropriateness. Well, now the Garrett Club is open to us. Do we need to explain? It's not really a news story because it's of so little relevance to 99.9% of the population. We can explain it very quickly. There's a club in London called the Garrick Club which was set up by someone presumably called Garrick and it's always been male only and it used to be for kind of showbiz and the elite and writers and stuff. Was it sort of arty? I didn't know that.

Well, I think that's why it's in the heart of London's fashionable West End. And it's really dull and full of pompous people. And there's a quite distinctive tie. Yeah. And they have flags outside and all of that kind of malarkey. And they haven't let members, they haven't let women in as members ever.

And there have been a couple of kind of pushes at the door recently. And then everyone got into a right old tizzy. And suddenly, all of these men who had been members for 40 years started to say, gosh, this is terrible. This is terrible. That's the point. It's a good point.

It's worth making that they'd attended, presumably, this establishment for many an evening. And they'd attended presumably this this establishment for many an evening and they'd never noticed they had never noticed that the only members were male yeah and then then it all goes off on the social media and there's some opprobrium thrown their way and these thoroughly right-minded individuals in brackets men uh decide one of them was a shocking shocking thing yeah they think he put on when he tried to get into the membership do you think he put name full name sting yeah what is his name gordon sumner that's it gordon sumner now tell you what speaking of the balladeers from a certain age we were treated to... Well, we weren't treated to an award.

Let's just acknowledge the slight large grey animal in the room, which was that we didn't win, nor did Matt Chorley, which we did think was unfair. Nor did Hugo Rivkin. And we also thought that was unfair. Nor did Cathy Newman. And we also thought that was unfair. We're so, so onside with our teammates here at Times Radio.

No, it was, I mean, who cares? If you're not, there's nothing, it's like the equivalent of the office party when you don't work in the office, isn't it? You couldn't care less. Yeah. And I absolutely get it, but we're just going to talk about it for 20 seconds to make ourselves feel better. Well, because all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this was the arias, which is kind of

the Oscars of the radio industry. It's our industry get-together. Just that we should say, the Oscars are the Oscars of the film world. It's our industry get-together. The Oscars are the Oscars of the film world, in case there's any confusion. And the arias are the Oscars of the radio world. And audio. And audio world, yeah. So we were there at the Theatre Royal in Drury Lane.

Joan and I managed to have a tiny little fish supper first, which was very welcome it was a long old evening and along comes a tribute to steve wright and uh and so there should have been it was absolutely right to do there were two tributes uh last night one was to annie nightingale which was really beautiful and wonderful yeah and her daughter accepted a lifetime achievement award with her two sons. And then Steve Wright, there was a montage of some of the great and the good in radio and his colleagues paying tribute to him. And then who arrived on stage in a pale blue crooner's suit?

Well, I think to, would it be fair to say universal surprise, it was no lesser popular crooner than Mr. Marty Pello. Yeah. What was the name of his group? Wet, wet, wet. That's it. He was bone dry last night, by the way, if anyone's worried about that. Imagine if there'd been a leak in the ceiling.

But there wasn't. And then the headline would have been, wet, wet, wet, wet. I wonder if they ever did a gig outside in really inclement weather. No, this is facile. Marty Pello appeared and he, of course, sang the song that was the Four Weddings and a Funeral big hit. Well, the Wichita Line Man. Yeah, but that's what people know him for.

What was that blooming Four Weddings and a Funeral song? Love is All Around. Love is All Around, yeah. Anyway, we're going off tangent here, because last night he sang Wichita Lime. It's not unusual, is it? Because that was the theme tune that Steve Wright in the afternoon had for the big show.

So he sang it. He really did croon his way through it, didn't he? Yeah. I didn't actually pick up on that. That was... The Wichita Lime was the theme song for Steve Wright's Afternoon Show. Yes. I suppose it was, the sweeping string version.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm afraid I didn't realise that. Oh, good God. I'm just not as musical as you. That's really absurd. I appreciate your right, that's true. Anyway, it was a slightly, it was a bit odd. It was a bit odd. But then that's kind of the spirit of these events. But Steve Wright, much missed. And I think it's, who was it who said on the film tribute

that he wouldn't have enjoyed the tribute very much? So it was Chris Morris who said he would have hated every single second of it. And the funny fact is that Steve Wright never won a Sony, which is the precursor to the Arias, which is astonishing because then the whole industry mourned his passing. But he had not won the big gongs all through his life, which makes it just odd. You've got to wonder about the criteria,

which to loop right back to the beginning means we shouldn't worry that we didn't win. We're not worried! We're basically like Steve Wright. Just the greats never get recognised. Right, shall we do some emails? Who's coming up as our guest today? Well, it's Martin Freeman and Tony Schumacher. Now, Tony is a former police officer,

and he is the screenwriter of the BBC series The Responder, which is about an overnight police patrol officer in Liverpool. That's right, isn't it? That is right. Played by Martin Freeman in The Responder. It's the second series and it's all out now on the iPlayer, but I'm watching it in a normal weekly way because, as we outlined at the beginning of this edition of Off Air,

I have respectable habits. I'm not a binger. I'm also really boring. Those are the two things you need to keep in mind. But Martin Freeman, he is a great actor, actually. Yeah. But I think we both agree that this is a, it's a doer old show.

So do me. Yeah, it is. So the second season has got two threads in it. One is a young chap looking after his baby because the mother of his baby has to go and serve some time in prison and he's never been with a baby before, doesn't know what to do with the baby. That just gives me the giggles, the absolute giggles as to how that's going to pan out. I haven't got to that bit yet, I'm dreading it.

But there's also what was in season one an incredibly, I thought, clever and dignified treatment of a horrible coercive control relationship and that's rearing its head again in quite an oppressive way. So I just put that out there because I think you have to be in the right kind of mood to watch The Responder. Yeah, if you're looking for something to to lighten your load this isn't it

is no I'd turn on MasterChef uh even even that had a little bit of a a tricky missing finger oh my god what's happened season as well what there was an accident on set oh there was yes better off with just stick to country fileile and don't watch anything else. OK, now I need to clear something up because we were talking about cohabitants and their rights and whether or not you have any rights at all, even if you've had children after you separate, if you've not been married. We're going to chuck this out, actually,

to our fantastic money man, Adam Shaw, who's going to look into the absolute detail of it but a couple of you have written in and I'm just going to read Carol's email I don't mind being corrected ever Carol so please don't ever think that you can't shout back at the audio as we now have to call it

you are correct that there's no such thing as a common law wife or husband further you are correct that cohabitants have no rights against each other for financial support or the provision of a home when the relationship breaks down. But this is the case even if the unmarried couple have children. If they're joint owners of the home, then they will probably have to sell and split the net proceeds between them according to their beneficial interests. But neither can expect the other to maintain them in any way or form. The children have rights against their cohabiting parents for maintenance,

often the father who's the main earner and living apart from them or possibly court orders under the Children's Act 1989 for certain financial provisions, including those for a home, during their minority if the cohabitant has a property or sufficient assets. Now that's all a bit wordy but I think the basics of it are, I don't want to get this wrong again Jane, that the children have the rights not necessarily the woman or man. However the mother will have more rights against the father or vice versa for financial support than a cohabitant without children. I fear that fee suggestion

that the cohabitant with kids might be in a similar situation as a married wife or mother is misleading. It's a very complicated area and indeed it's extremely important that the cohabitants with kids should really think carefully about their potential situation should the relationship break down. It's just, I mean, I completely agree with you on that. It's just so much easier said than done. I think it's still one of those incredibly difficult conversations to have

at the beginning of a relationship or when a relationship starts to creak. I'm not sure I know of anybody who's managed to sit down and say, look, if this is going to be the end result and we split up, are we legally protected now? I mean, who's going to say, look, I'm really not sure about our prospects. Can we get married? Yeah. Or have a civil partnership?

Because at least then... We'll be all right when we split up. You just don't do that, do you? You don't think like that. It just doesn't happen. No. And it's the underbelly of love and hope that has just grown for so many.

But Carol, thank you for all of that. Yeah. And Carol has been a lawyer for decades, Carol, thank you for all of that. And Carol has been a lawyer for decades, dealing with all of these types of issues. So absolutely knows what she's talking about. For those of us who are unclear, we will ask Adam to do

that section on the programme probably in two weeks' time, and Jane and I will flag it up again if you want to have a listen. It's very easy to go back and listen to the show. Jane, how could people do that? Well, they can get the Times Radio app and how much does that cost, V? Absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. Just get it

and then you can not only hear off air, you can hear a range of wonderful podcasts provided by our colleagues here at the Times and also you can listen again. You can just roll back in Radio Time on Times Radio. Where we still won't have won an award. Where none of us will have won an award.

But that's not the point. That's not what... We were in the business of public service. We're not in that anymore. We come to work because we like it. And we'd only be cluttering up our houses if we were not here. This is from Wendy, who has an important query and this is proof that there is no niche to teeny for a podcast. Hello ladies. I've been trying for a

while to recall and or locate a poem from my childhood about flowers which contains the line and peonies spread too wide. So, just imagine Wendy's excitement fee when Jane started extolling the virtues of peonies just the other day. It's a poem about the characteristics of different flowers, but that line about peonies is the only one I can recall. I have asked my primary school teacher friends, as well as Jeeves, of course, but no luck so far. So I'm hoping one of your listeners will be able to put me out of my

misery so what is the poem that contains the line and it's about the qualities of flowers and peonies spread too wide wendy is in agony she's in hertfordshire as well and she needs to know the answer to that someone will know they certainly They certainly will. Okay. I'm very struck by your love of the peonies, actually. I'd never really, I'd never thought about just how blousy they are. They're just fabulous. But they are, aren't they? They're a great big

super-woofing kind of warm, luscious cleavage of a flower. If it were the 1970s and peonies were all female, people would say things like, she's asking for trouble. Would they?

They probably would have done. Going out like that? Exactly. With all her blousy petals on show. That is true. Nope, good welcome of that. Well, indeed. And that is what they would have said.

Now, I know you're about to move on to the subject of road rage and fighting, aren't you? And there is a great story. It's not a great story, it's just an illustration and it's everywhere in all the papers today. And this man's been found guilty, so we're all right to report it. It's about a driver who was filmed

screaming abuse at a woman after she had sounded a horn at him for cutting her up. And this man, he's called Peter Abbott, he is now potentially going to go to prison. We're awaiting the sentence. But he left his car and approached a woman's vehicle after a minor incident outside a petrol station in August of last year. I mean, I won't repeat what he said, but he was horrendously abusive, really unpleasant language. And his face, which the woman has photographed, is just scrunched up in awful, let's be honest,

I mean, he's just hideous, isn't he? But he's a snarling, awful looking bloke. However, and by the way, I hope he does go to prison and I hope people take notice of this story. And what I really, when I read about this, I just thought, wow, I've either been very close to that or nearly lived it on so many occasions because I, and I'm, by the way, not always on the, on the victim side either, because I truly believe that when we get behind the wheel of a car, we all change. And on the whole, not for the better. Yeah, I agree.

It's our little box we think we're protected. It really is. And this guy is the living proof of what can go wrong when you just have a really minor little disagreement with another driver about something utterly irrelevant and you just go like that. Yeah, the rage comes in absolutely and it's terrifying so christine has witnessed a little bit of that too i was coming out of the

lyceum playhouse i'm sorry i contractually obliged not to say theater too often christine a few weeks ago when a male cyclist collided with a male pedestrian immediately they started to fight with the pedestrian forcing the cyclist onto the ground in a choke hold. People were watching and even filming whilst the cyclist was going puce and appearing to lose consciousness. I, a 71-year-old female, couldn't stand by as the cyclist was being throttled, so I approached the young and very strong pedestrian and lightly put my hand on his arm saying calmly,

Come on, son, don't do something you'll regret. Another lady also started to come over at that stage and thankfully the pedestrian stood and walked away i too was really surprised at the immediate violence which occurred but mostly surprised that no one was prepared to intervene but were happy to watch and even film the scene a sign of the times perhaps well christine you are brave to walk into that situation, especially as a 71-year-old woman. I'm just really alarmed that nobody else did that first, actually. And I agree with you that, you know,

when you see people filming stuff instead of intervening, you just really worry for the human race, don't you? But also, it's the speed that I was trying to get at with the fight that we witnessed, and that's what Christine is saying too. It's just there isn't a pause before the violence kicks in. And we had a couple of emails saying, well, maybe what you're witnessing

is the result of working too many shifts or being stressed and anxious and up against it, as many, many delivery riders are. And I would completely agree and want to be sympathetic, but it's the go-to where the immediate reaction is just to hurt somebody that I'm not sure that I want to mitigate that actually if I can be honest Jane with the circumstances of somebody's backstory yeah I think that's a that is a place that you

can get to in an argument about violence but I don't think I want to ever accept that there's a kind of I don't know is there's no you don't want there to be an excuse for it. Well, there shouldn't be an excuse for extreme violence, no. I mean, because otherwise every single person who was living in difficult circumstances would be able to make the excuse that I was driven to it because I can't pay my electricity bill. And I'm not in any way undermining how difficult things are.

And I get it about the delivery drivers, actually, because I think we look away from that form of work too often. You know, most of us are on the receiving end, aren't we? We're not doing that work ourselves. And if you pause to think about what that shift work is like, it is absolutely horrendous. And actually, there's a very good piece by our colleague who's named temporarily, you know, the guy who always,

what's he called, the consumer correspondent, Harry? Harry Wallop. Thank you. He's done a shift as a delivery driver, written about it in the Times. And it's very revealing. And that's revealing in itself, isn't it? That a lot of us don't know somebody doing that work forever and ever and ever

so we need to go and read about somebody taking it up as a kind of a journalistic challenge and good on him for doing it but I think he worked out that he was only making five pounds an hour so thank you for all of those things and Christine stay safe

stay safe brave woman and you know I hope that that never happens to you again she was very brave to intervene and I think she said what was it she said exactly remind me of what it was she said so she said come on son don't do something you'll regret

and I think that's a fantastic way of putting it because let's be honest a punch can kill someone and then you're in jail for a minimum of, well, if you get life, that's 11 years, you probably serve eight. They're dead. And they're dead. Don't do it.

It's just, oh yes, and they're dead. Good point. Let's move to Canadian Corner. Let's move to Canadian Corner. We welcome listeners all over the Commonwealth. And this is from Jocelyn. She's a Brit, but she's living with another Brit in Canada. For the past 20 years, she says,

she's angry with us because we were rude about Skechers. Skechers shoes are in my world and they're wonderful. I wear them to work every shift as a nurse. They are so comfortable when you're on your feet for long hours. And this is probably back to your point, actually, about the actual reality of working life for many people and they are supportive of the lower back and knees as they have a cushioned sole a wide range of designs and colors as well i also wear them with my summer dresses when exercising and when i'm also dressed to go out for the night my hobby

also has two pairs of slip-on sketches again busy. Again, busy lives, slip-on, and you're out and ready to go. They are comfortable, they're supportive, and they're on trend. I found your comments upsetting. Jocelyn, we are sorry. No, seriously. OK, well, you will probably be in Skechers the next time we go out of an evening, because last night we had to walk up the most astonishing number of stairs and into back rooms and little rooms and do an interview here and do an interview. It was all backstage, wasn't it?

Oh, yeah. At the Theatre Royal. By the way, everybody was 23. They were. Weren't they? We were definitely the oldest people on that stage. I was like a Chelsea pensioner at a rave. But also you had your new shoes on

and you were wearing your open-toed sandals. Were you wearing them with some light American tan tights? Nude, actually. Nude, okay. I've never understood American tan. Oh, I used to wear American tan at school. But how, I mean, America is a very, very big place. There are 50 states states how can you just

have one american tan well it's cobblers anyway isn't it because of you know skin colors and caucasian exactly i mean it's just cobblers it is all utterly cobblers but i think it is very challenging to wear an open-toed sandal with a tight uh especially when you're having to go up and downstairs in the dark and there were moments where I thought, gosh, this evening might be memorable for very different reasons. Has anybody... Have you got the tribute ready? She's gone.

While we're all here. Oh, you horrible thing. Well, I did say last night, if the worst comes to the worst, I don't, in the nicest possible way, I do not want Marty Pello singing which is... Right.

We're still in Canada in in the company of Jane, who, get this, Fee? Yeah. She went to the same school as me. If you're a cornflower, you're particularly welcome here on Off Air. She says there's nothing, can you imagine, Fee, there's nothing here on live radio in Canada for women that compares to the women of the UK.

Oh, that's terrible. On the radio. I find it very sad. I think North America is really sanitised on women's issues. Gosh. I think there's probably, I mean, obviously, this is a huge generalisation, but we are allowed in this country to be pretty explicit

on all sorts of radio programmes about women and our lot. And I suspect that may not be true in North America because they can be surprisingly prudish, can't they, about certain things. Anyway, what Jane really emailed to say was how much she also loves those books by Kristin Hanna and I have so got into this book

The Women, which I think is a rather odd title for a book that's actually about what it was like to serve as a nurse in Vietnam and it honestly is so absorbing. I'm not reading it, I'm listening to it. I really recommend it if you've got a long flight coming up or something like that. Treat yourself to this as an audio book. It's so, it just takes you there. But actually,

Jane says that Kristen's written lots of other good books, including The Nightingale. She says they are indeed sagas, well written, well researched. I must add that The Nightingale actually inspired my local hiking group of intrepid Canadian women to travel to Europe and hike from Spain into France. That's impressive, isn't it? Well, it is. Although it can in places be quite a narrow border. I mean, you could

start just ten feet in France and just cross over to Spain. Cross the border! That isn't what they did. No, I know. They went on a much, much longer walk. But so I'm just saying, if you're fortunate enough to have a holiday coming up and you want a book that will take you to another place, then I do advise something by Christian Hanna.

What's so interesting about this book about Vietnam is, first of all, I didn't know anything about it, but secondly, the second half of the book is about what life is like when she goes back home and to be blunt about it, no one's interested. No one asks. And worse than that, people spit at her in the street. And apparently this all happened to people who served in Vietnam. It was just, I didn't know. But that's why so many Vietnam vets, you know, their poor mental health was exacerbated by just an extraordinary reaction in some parts of America. It does alarm me as I age how little I know.

So, for example, until we did Boy Swallows Universe in our book club, I didn't know that Australian troops had served in Vietnam. And I know that Britain was kept out of it, but I didn't... You know, you just don't know, do you? No, and you're never too old to learn. No. At all. Phil Oakey?

Human League. Yeah. Could he sing at the tribute? I mean, if Cliff is still alive. Oh. Right. Anyway, let's not think too much about your demise because that would be very, very, very sad.

I'd have to work with Ed Vasey again. I couldn't do it, love. Right. Right, this one comes from Rach and Beck because we met Rach last night. We did. Did we? And we also, who else did we meet?

We met Leslie. Leslie, that's right. Hello, Leslie. Yep, so thank you all for coming to say hello to us. We didn't move because we're too elderly. We were just sitting at the front, weren't we, with our great big handbags on our laps. It was like my nan at whist, I have to say.

But anyway. It was like we were just, you know, we were basically waiting for the coach to depart. I'm going to save your fantastic email for our email special because it's all about being twins and it's got some really interesting stuff in there that I'd never heard before. Our email special, Jane, is...

Well, we're going to pump it out to the nation on Friday. Is that right? I'm looking at Eve and she's just about awake and she agrees that that is indeed what's happening. Lovely. Kay says, There have been stories now and then along the lines of entitlement.com. Thank you for apologising for Noel Edmonds' presence

in New Zealand is the title of that email. Oh, now some people are annoyed about us dissing Greece. Emma's still watching Greece and Pretty Woman. I was listening to your chat about the dreadful messages inherent in them and I want to email this argument always riles me up a bit. I'd argue that great art doesn't need to have a moralistic message to it wouldn't it be so boring if everything stood the test of time perfectly let's not forget that greece was filmed in the 70s and set in the 50s why would the characters hold the beliefs and express the values of 2024

it wouldn't make any sense i i totally get the point that obviously not everything has to have a moral message. I still hate the message of Greece. I'm not going to change any time soon. I think I'm annoyed that we were fed that idea growing up and that we've never quite been able to shake it. Yeah. I think that's what irritates me about greece yeah i didn't like the feeling that all of the boys were laughing at the girls because that was absolutely what was happening in our reality too i didn't like

seeing it played out on the big screen and and that that kind of gang thing of you know if if everybody doesn't fancy the girl that you fancy, then you're not allowed to fancy her. It just, it didn't seem to give an awful lot of hope to those of us who weren't being universally fancied by large roaming packs of men. I think that's also true. Although there's some troubling aspects of the film,

not least the fact that all the pupils at this high school were well into their 30s. It was a little odd. Yeah. So anyway, Emma, I completely appreciate that. Emma says she's 32. Grease was one of my favourite films as a child and it still is now.

And I can assure you that I've not once got a perm, given up my entire personality and wardrobe and started smoking to make a man notice me. Do you know what, Emma? I think you're just a stronger woman than perhaps Jane and I are or have been, but I just remember at the time thinking that I really needed to love Grease. Yeah.

And then there just was that moment of awakening on watching it again where my older self was allowed to go, oh, actually, no, that bit didn't feel right. But at the time, I joined in with it, absolutely joined in with it, and I really, really wanted those hot pants. Well, I got a perm. Crikey, have you got pictures?

I think there are somewhere. Oh, okay, well, I pay very good money for that. How's Alexa doing? Well, I said thank you to her today because I was really it's quite funny that I picked up on a message that we had yesterday from someone saying manners are everything and they

maketh the woman so today when I asked her to stop doing something I did say thank you however she couldn't respond because obviously the thank you was not what she was programmed to be ready for so she carried on. App to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.

Right, shall we go into our guesty guests? Yes, on you go. Today it's Martin Freeman and Tony Schumacher. They are our big guests, the men who are bringing us The Responder. It is a cop show on the BBC right now. Tony is the former policeman turned writer behind the highly acclaimed drama. And Martin stars as Chris,

who's part of the late night police response team in Liverpool, dealing with drugs, gangs, poverty and deprivation, the combination of all of the bad stuff. And in the first series, it took its toll on his personal life. He and his wife split up, on screen that is. So the twisting threads are all there. I asked Martin where we find Chris in season two.

Chris is a few months down the line from where we last saw him in series one. And series one never really found him in very fine mental or emotional health. So in order to try to rectify that he's taking baby steps to making his life a little bit better so has joined um a men's group where i think it's fair to say he probably just plans on being a bit of a spectator for the time being a bit of a passenger uh but he's heard he's heard tell that uh it's quite good if you kind of join a group and

talk about stuff so i don't think he's planning on volunteering a load of things, but I think he just wants to find out the lay of the land about what this is actually like. If you join a group for, I suppose they're mainly, but not all middle-aged men who just have stuff to get off their chest. And I guess that the whole sort of talking therapy is, is his idea of, well, maybe this could help because he had some counselling with the police. It was very unsatisfactory. And also he would have run out of that because they only do it for a finite time.

Yeah. And I think, you know, he's struggling enough that he wants to try to make sense of how I think how he could make his life a little bit better, a little bit happier. Have either of you two ever done the men's group thing? No, I haven't. I haven't. I always, the only thing I can liken it to is years ago when you'd go to the pub and you'd be with a load of mates and you would talk

about things that, you know, you possibly wouldn't talk about in other ways. But I mean, obviously alcohol was involved then, so it was, I mean I was 13, so, but it was like... But I mean mean the eyes of the men's group for this thing i always think about chris is like he's like he's lost in a forest of emotions you know and he's just looking for a path he's just you know and he's trying all sorts of things

and you know if we didn't have the show i think he'd be trying something else probably, you know. That's what makes his character just so very watchable and very appealing because he's a good man, isn't he? But he is fragile and he is up against it and he just doesn't always make the best decisions. Yeah, I think he's just trying to be good.

Yeah, I think he's essentially decent as in, you know, he's not you know, he's not he's certainly think he's essentially decent as in you know he's not you know he's not um he's certainly not a terrible person but i think he um partly the job that he finds himself in is one of the most stressful i could imagine and also just his emotional makeup anyway you know like even if he ended up driving a bus or working in accounts i think he would have some of those traits that he has as a copper the thing is as a copper you've also got the world coming down on you like a ton of bricks

uh literally and metaphorically as well so um yeah i think he's fighting fires on all fronts yeah do you think martin that it's easier to play a good man trying not to be bad or a bad man trying to be good? Oh, I don't know. You know, I've not played enough fundamentally bad men. Because I think the thing is, the truth is, I think if you gave me a part that was, this is a bad man, I would find a way to make him a good man.

Or at least an understandable man. I guess because what we all know, it's such a cliche, it barely even needs repeating, is that nobody wakes up in the morning thinking I'm going to be a bad person today. Literally nobody we can think of. I mean, certain people definitely have very little empathy. I'm sure that's medically true, but no one thinks, God, I'm a bad person and I'm OK with that. You know, everyone who's done terrible, terrible things throughout the course of history thinks they're doing the right thing so you know you could give me a part of anybody and i would try to make it for that character to rationalize it and make it make them a decent person with some

people you definitely have more of a struggle than others you know chris is definitely not a bad person but he's a very flawed stressed person person. He's just a stressed person. I mean, you never set out to be Derek Nimmo, do you? You're not going out to be this, you know, a perfect human being who's constantly apologising to people. But, I mean, from my point of view, it's just more interesting, aren't they? People who are struggling with something,

especially themselves. Tony, tell us about your experience, though, within the police force. You did 10 years, didn't you, yourself? And I mean, I absolutely hear you, Martin, what you say about people wanting to be good people. But actually, I think what we're learning more and more about the police force is that it can be a bit of a hiding place for a bad man. And I wonder, Tony, whether you met that type of bad man when you were there yourself. Tony, whether you met that type of bad man when you were there yourself.

I think one of the problems is that bad men, bad people are really good at hiding. I think that, you know, it's like when you hear about terrible people who do things to children, you know, they'll find a way to leverage a position, you know, or they'll work on a long term strategy. And part of that is hiding in plain sight you know and I don't think I worked with any

you know in better commas bad men I don't think as is but I don't know if I did

you know I don't know if I did and like Martin says you know I don't imagine I might be wrong but I don't imagine that people get up in the morning says, I don't imagine, I might be wrong, but I don't imagine that people get up in the morning and go, right, this is the day I'm going to do something really, really bad.

And there's obviously always outliers. There's obviously people who do wake up like that, do think today's the day. But I don't think that's it. think today's the day. But I don't think that's it. I think the most common kind of person I met was human

beings who were just trying their very best. If you were going into the police force now, do you think it would be a very different experience? It's difficult because I know we have the promise of 20,000 extra police officers and you do wonder

if you're going to start putting arbitrary figures on, we need to get this many by this amount of time. You do wonder what kind of sifting operation has gone on, you know. But, you know, these people are sophisticators. And, you know, we've seen that they can find their way in, you know. And, you know, we've seen that they can find their way in, you know. But I hope that recent events will improve recruitment. I really do.

Martin, can I ask you about your politics? Is that OK? Can if you want. Yes, lovely. Good. I just wondered where you're at with the Labour Party, because I know that you have, you know, willingly supported them previously and particularly Jeremy Corbyn. So do you rate Keir Starmer? Will you be happy to stand alongside him this time around?

To be honest, I'm giving it a bit of a swerve at the moment. And that's not just, you know, that's not because of my opinion of Keir Starmer. And that's not just, you know, that's not because of my opinion of Keir Starmer. It's just because my opinion, my own understanding of the world is I think my the best thing I can do for myself and for people is to probably stay out of it more. I think previously I've been quite gobby about stuff and not even gobby, but, you know, we all have a right to say stuff about politics. I it's fair enough and to a certain degree i'm still a political person but i don't i don't any longer to be honest feel a great need to um wear the badge to be honest because i'm i'm still working out what i think about stuff is the truth and i think while i'm working out what i feel about stuff it feels a little bit disingenuous for me to start slinging mud at other people when

when i think well hang on how do why do i think i know what i think i know how do i think i know that you mean what what am i basing that on is that habit is it through having posters up and t-shirts on is or is it because i've because i've really thought through all of these issues really really well um and the truth is that's not always clear for me that becomes gray and not black and white so yeah to be honest i mean i don't mind you asking me about my politics the truth is that's not always clear for me that becomes grey and not black and white so yeah to be honest I mean I don't mind you asking me about my politics the truth is I don't always know the answer these days that's the truth. Sure I was just wondering though Martin does some of the you know the the kind of hurricane and whirlwind of social media have something to do with wanting to stay a bit quieter as well because as soon as you are a public figure, you know, you are very available to people

for 24 hours a day. I wonder whether you find that a bit much. I mean, I'm not on social media. And, you know, partly for that reason, you know, I always wanted less ways for people to get in touch with me, not more. I didn't want, I hope someone figures out a new way that people can communicate with me.

I thought I'm quite happy kind of being slightly off the grid, you know i again i think that social media whirlwind is is fed into the situation that i i think we're in that is not very healthy which is us just slinging insults at each other um because if you disagree with me you're a bad person you're a de facto bad person and i'm a good person i think it's just very reductive and I don't really um want to join in that the way I feel about politics is honestly the way I feel about art which is the interesting bits are the bits in between and the gray not the hard black not the hard white or the hard left or the hard right um I think the interesting bit is when we actually talk to each other and go oh yeah

I don't I might not know the answer to this i genuinely don't know the answer to this and the older i get the more i think to myself i really don't know the answer i definitely know the answer to that you know i i used to get uh you know when i was first when i first sort of nailed my colors to the mast many years ago and i'd be asked to be on political shows and i was new i knew i was never going to go on question time ever because guess what there's other people on the panel who do this for a living. Well, they're doing it 24 hours a day. Right. They're thinking about that trade agreement or this, you know, subsection of that law or whatever. And I'm just an actor who comes in and reckons some stuff, you know, which I don't think is a very edifying sight sometimes.

No. Well, what a fantastic, honest and self-deprecating answer. Tony, can we watch season two of The Responder, safe in the knowledge that Chris, who is the viewer we just are really rooting for, will kind of come through it in the end? There's no spoilers, but he does survive the plane crash. Why did you? No, literally.

Literally. I want people to be on a journey with Chris and I want people to be rooting for him. I love Chris. We love Chris. We don't want anything bad to happen to Chris. We want him to get a decent night sleep as well, Martin. The bag's under your

eyes. I'm worried for you. I'll send you an eye mask. It's a great point. I've got i've got a two and a half year old son so i was right now from um a position of truth let's just say lack of sleep was uh was heavy in my mind now i i just want people to just root for chris martin freeman and tony schumacher do you know i think it's really difficult when you're the actor and the writer talking about a series that you really really want people to watch

not to give away too much but at the same time to give away enough to tea, it's a very difficult thing to pull off but I really do hope that Chris is okay, I think that's the main thing that we can take away from that, that he definitely needs a kip, but he should be all right in the end.

Perhaps he'll retrain as, what could he be? Well, I mean, he does start off in this men's group, and actually, I think, yeah, I mean, he could retrain as a counsellor. A lot of people do, don't they? Maybe a nutritionist. There's quite a lot of that going on. Well, avocado, a handful of nuts and some yoghurt. There we are. I'm a nutritionist. Give me a column.

Right. Have a lovely however many hours it'll be between pods and we'll see you terrifyingly soon. OK. Alexa, switch them off. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five.

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