Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Like something out of a Victoria Wood sketch

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Jane and Fi talk ready-made home-made dinners, 50th birthday parties, and the juxtaposition of urban virility. They're also joined by CNN's chief international anchor, Christiane Amanpour. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well here we are. Did you have a nice weekend? I had a lovely weekend. Did you? Yes, it was alright. I had some friends around for dinner on Saturday night. She says, making herself sound more interesting than she actually is. And I was going to cook, I really was. But then I went to my local high street and there was a ready-made beef casserole. And I just thought they probably won't notice.

And did they? Well, only after I told them, because I was very conscious of the wrapping, the cardboard wrapping being quite relative. Well, to be honest, clearly visible in my recycling bin. So I just thought, should you say, do you think? Always, because I think it makes people feel really comforted by your honesty. I did make my own mash. Yeah, but it saves the embarrassment of being found out

and having pretended. And then they'd go away and talk about me. It would be all over East West Kensington. And they would think she's a charlatan. I mean, to be fair, I brought my peas to a really solid boil and I made some mash. There you go. I can't ask for any more.

I went to a 50th birthday party. Oh, 50th, you frisky young thing. Wow. I know. What time did that finish? Well, actually, some people didn't go to bed until six in the morning. Oh, my God. I'm beyond doing anything like that. Do you know what? There were four speeches during the evening and

it was one of the loveliest parties of celebration that I think i've ever been to and there were three speeches that were you know about the birthday girl and her fabulousness and she's an absolutely fabulous woman and there was one speech that was just so well placed because it was all about her inadequacies and it was so funny and so it's like a roasting daring but done you know with love and humor it was absolutely brilliant goodbye i Daring, but done, you know, with love and humour. It was absolutely brilliant.

I can't... A friend? A friend. Oh, no, no, a friend. A very old friend. So four very old friends made speeches. But, you know, sometimes you think, gosh, that is so daring to have sat at home and written that down

and hoped that it would work. And it absolutely did work. It was just... And the birthday girl did not mind. She didn't mind. Are you mind? She didn't mind. Are you sure? She didn't mind at all. Yes, I am sure, actually.

I am sure. But it was just such a... It was a very surprising thing to do, but wonderful all the same. But yes, I think I'm more likely to be invited to 60th, to be honest. I had to save the date for a 60th over the weekend. And the party's in November. I'm wondering whether it's just that I think we're all getting a bit forgetful, so put it down

in the diary now. Oh, I'm not surprised that that was in November. I'm going to have a plan for a Saturday night in November, in February. But don't you think it's more about just really, really wanting the right people to come so you do want to warn them in advance? I guess so. I should be flattered, shouldn't I?

Yes. Not carp. No, I'm not carping. I was going to say I love a party, that's not true, but I will go. Will you keep your coat on? Dear listener, I've been at parties with Jane where she's kept her coat on. Yeah, but those BBC drinks parties, they're not the same. They're quite funny. I had a life jacket on several

times. So there was one that we went to. It was great and glorious, wasn't it? It was the launch of BBC Sirens. Oh, for God's sake. And it was in a place of brutal modern architecture. Yes, we really felt at home. And there were lots of different booths where you could record something and do this, that and the other.

And then a series of BBC executives stood up to make speeches with their suits on. That killed the mood a bit, didn't it? Yeah, they just slightly loosened their ties. And I think there was a juxtaposition, wasn't there, where the then Director General, and I won't name him, you can look it up if you really want to. Gosh, I'm not sure, but people who really are completists,

they'll want to look it up for you. Carry on. Well, he had to do his great big Fandango speech and then introduce an absolutely bruising grime artist onto the stage. And it was just like, oh, my God. Lord of all. I did keep my coat on that night, you're right. Yeah, you did.

It was partly because it was chilly and also because I just wanted to be able to make a quick getaway. Yeah, and you refused to give your handbag in either. So you had quite a large bag. So you just stood there with your trench coat on and your bag I just wanted to be able to make a quick getaway yeah and you refused to give your handbag in either so you had quite a large bag so you just stood there with your trench coat on and your bag clasped basically like something out of a Victoria Wood sketch all right yes I've got a very funny picture actually from that night of um of me with Ken Bruce uh I think Johnny Walker yes Tony Blackburn oh my god the stars Wh Blackburn Whispering Bob Whispering Bob Harris

You were a happy lady that night I tell you what woman could ask for more Imagine being trapped in a lift for all time with that lot You'd be entertained Oh it's great, average age 765 And that's just Tony Blackburn He's had eight and a half

thousand lovers everyone satisfied I don't say that well he wrote a few about it in his book just don't you imagine any female broadcaster I've had approximately

well darling you've still got time ahead of you I'm really going to have to get a wiggle on. I so am. Anyway, right. As ever, we've potted along to a place that isn't particularly pleasant and we need to get over this hump. Actually, if there's a whispering bob,

I think you should be shouting Jane. Shouting Jane Garvey. We should say, actually, because we did mention it briefly on the radio show, that on Friday we did find ourselves so far out of our own comfort zones as to be off the scale. We were doing a fashion photo shoot in a very trendy part. It is fair to say it's a hip and happening part of Riverside, London. Where would you describe where we went?

Name the area. Bermondsey Street. Bermondsey Street, that's right. So it's got an air of old Dickensian London about it, but then these really, really shining skyscrapers above it. So it's the juxtaposition of urban virility. It so is, everybody. And if you're not a London resident and you're planning a trip,

I do urge you to come to this part of London, the London Bridge area, and just don't go anywhere, just walk, because you're right, there are these incredible little streets that just, and Round Brick Lane is another favourite part of mine in East London, where the names of streets and the look of the building just tells you so much about the people who've lived there, the history of London. It's absolutely fascinating. And can you just use that phrase again, please? The juxtaposition of urban virility. There's no point in me even trying to compete. Feed lover there.

Every penny spent on our education was money well spent. Thank you. Enough. Enough. We did a fashion shoot, and we do need to just very briefly talk about your cargo pants, because you'd been saying how much you can't stand them, you find them just a very difficult trouser item. You don't like the people who choose to wear them.

It basically brings down the whole of humanity because of all of the pockets. And what did you end up being told to wear? Well, the thing is I had to wear cargo trousers because the idea of the photo shoot, and we should say we're not certain whether these hideous images, I mean, these wonderful images will ever see the light of day, but some of them might. In the Sunday Times style mag, not a sentence I ever thought I'd associate myself with. How much Mickey are we going to get from our kids? Well, neither of my children have ever picked up a newspaper knowingly, so I think I should be all right. I'll try and keep it quiet.

Let's just hope word doesn't reach them via other sources conniving friends or mothers of friends oh my god it doesn't bear thinking about um so we were wearing we were dressed in trends weren't we by the incredibly patient stylist a lovely woman called Flossie and so you wore very very um cutting edge metallic trousers silver leather trousers on on and a trench coat and one of those delicious white shirts. Yes, a nice crisp white shirt. I'm a big fan of the white shirt worn properly. And you had?

Well, I was in double denim for that shot. Well, the first shot, Jane wore some cargo trousers. Oh, yeah, and a stripy shirt. And a stripy shirt, which did have an element, and I think Flossie's much, much younger than us, so she wouldn't know this, and it's, you know, not on her. It did look a little bit, you look like a human pacer. Do you remember the pacers?

The minty ones, stripy ones. Oh, yeah, yes, I do. Did you not like that shirt? I loved that shirt, Jane. I thought you looked fantastic. Jane, because your birthday's coming up. Okay. But it just, you still aren't, even though you look lovely in the outfit,

you're still not converted to the cargo trouser. No, I'm never knowingly going to choose a cargo trouser. It's not going to happen. I honestly don't think, I mean, okay, if you are nine, I mean, the thing about 19-year-olds and 18-year-olds and indeed 23 and four and five and six and seven, they can wear what they like. They're young and they're beautiful

and they should be allowed to get on with whatever they want to wear and they can wear it however the hell they like. But I think when you get to 58, I'm owning it. I'm not sure the cargo trouser is for me. Well, I think you look very nice in the cargo trouser. Yes. The shot that I'm more worried about is you and I wearing matching dresses. That was creepy.

And we're posing on line bikes. I tell you what, sales of the Sunday Times that weekend are going to be through the roof. Right. We have a big guest and a very interesting one, Christiane Amanpour. But before that, let's just do some emails. Fiona. Oh, OK. So the first one here is from Anna in Sevenoaks, who says,

I've lost track of where I am and which day I'm on podcast-wise. Well, Anna, you and us both. But the school pools chat made me chuckle to myself at an almost forgotten memory of my unheated, dark, decaying, algae-filled outdoor school pool. Were we at the same school, Anna? I managed to avoid swimming in it by quite successfully imagining a chronic gynaecological issue, but my dearest friend, Mary Lewis, wasn't as creative.

Mary is an avid listener to the podcast and I'm sure she will love being reminded of the time the pool was so cold that she turned blue, lost the power of speech and was taken by ambulance to the local hospital. Oh my goodness, that wasn't a cheerful thing to happen. So she got proper hypothermia for all fellow survivors of can we say it kate i think so because it was a long time legal matter is it simon langton girls school pool in the late 1980s

lest we forget the showers were even colder well anna you and mary just have my deepest sympathy there was something of the there was an an element of nastiness, actually, in the way that we were made to swim as young kids in a very, very cold pool for a long period of time and then have cold showers and then have to go through the rest of the day with cold, blank, wet hair. The whole thing was just horrible. And nobody in their right mind was going to choose swimming as a sport after that experience no i actually think that on the whole schools are

more nurturing and kinder places than they were when we went i would hope so and indeed when our parents went when i don't think there was an awful lot of tenderness and consideration given to kids at school in the 40s I don't well I mean look I don't know but I get the impression that there wasn't a great deal of that around uh I don't mind if I'm corrected you can tell me otherwise um Tan says um that they were interested in our conversation with Ash Bhardwaj that was when we were at Destinations the travel show on Thursday um and Tan has been on a gap year when she says her pre-uni gap year travels, she was too young and insecure to fully appreciate the privilege of wandering afar. But India showed me a different way of looking at the world and indeed myself when I took a career

break at the age of 51 and headed off to India for almost a year. It was the most seminal moment in my life next to the birth of my children. I didn't once feel unsafe or threatened, although I'm aware I might just have been lucky and also I'm tall, five foot nine, and have pretty broad shoulders for a woman. It might have deterred any potential assailant, especially in southeast India, where I felt I'd arrived in Lilliput. On returning to my life in the UK, I felt empowered and enlightened and ready to face the next phase of my life with more strength and optimism. I would highly recommend anybody taking time out after 50.

That's interesting, Tan, and I'm glad that your trip to India was such a fulfilling and exciting one for you. I think it's a brave thing to do, I really do, because I'm such a wimp about travel, I suppose. But not just that. I think it is hard to strike out on your own. Yep. But don't let me stop you.

I can just give Claire Balding a buzz and she could do a little term for a couple of months. It'd be all right. Now, you said earlier you were feeling a bit sick, so I said I'd be quite nice to you. I can only assume you're now feeling a bit better. No, I still do feel a bit quiver. Oh, God.

Right. The thing is, we all had the same thing for lunch. We did. We did. And Kate's not feeling well. Kate's feeling a bit queasy. He's not feeling well. She's a bit green.

I feel really good, but I'm beginning to wonder. Okay. Do you want to introduce our special guest today? It is Christiane Amanpour, the ultimate anchorwoman. She's been on all sorts of CNN shows over the years, but I guess she's best known for being a frontline reporter, certainly during the war in Bosnia. And also, of course, more recently, she's been to Ukraine. She's also just got over ovarian cancer. And actually, this is entirely my fault. If we'd had more time in

the conversation, we could have talked about that and about her impressive recovery. And I think it's right. I think I'm right in saying that six months after her chemotherapy, she was in Ukraine. She went to Kiev to cover the war. So she is a formidable woman. She was honoured with a CBE by the Queen. She's interviewed so many of the world's top leaders. And she has just reported on all the big stories of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. She is currently chief international anchor of CNN's award-winning flagship global affairs programme, Amanpour. She is Christiane Amanpour. And she began by talking to us about CNN's coverage of the devastating earthquake on the border between Turkey and Syria today. I would say it's obviously leading the news. We're doing it at the top of every hour. And

as you know, we're 24-7. So we have a lot of time to be able to devote to these kinds of huge stories. And I will be doing it at the top of my program, too, before going into Ukraine and onward in other subjects. But look, it's really, really tragic. You're right, it's a humanitarian crisis, a disaster, as separate from the war we're seeing in Ukraine, which is in its own way a terrible humanitarian crisis and a great violation of international human rights laws. So all of these issues, all of them have to be covered, all of them have to be dealt with. But clearly, the response to something like the earthquake in Turkey and Syria is going to be completely different to the response to defending Ukraine.

Tell me about your viewers or what you know or think you know of your viewers. Are they people who don't think parochially or try not to? Are they people who think on a global scale? I think they do. I mean, that has been CNN International's raison d'etre since it started in 1985. Ted Turner, who is this and still is the great, really not just the great American entrepreneur, the great American success story. But he's the great, ahead of his time, cutting edge visionary. So first, he started CNN in 1980. And very shortly thereafter, he said, look, we need to broadcast around the world. We want to broadcast around the world. Because at that time, even the BBC wasn't broadcasting television around the world. It did have its fantastic world service, but not television.

And Ted Turner, and it's a long way around to getting to your answer, but I want to explain. He wanted people around the world, particularly in countries that did not have a free and independent press, to have free and independent journalism. In other words, non-state run journalism. In other words, non-state run journalism. He wanted to bust that mold for people wherever they could manage at that time to have a satellite downlink or, you know, the initial ways of getting this kind of cable or satellite information. since we started going international in 1985. And I really do believe that we are the place that most people turn to around the world for these kinds of big, breaking news stories. And the facts and the figures and the audience research bears that out. And that's the same in the United States as well. Does the rest of the world care very much about the UK?

Ooh, now that is a touchy question. Look, we, like many international organisations, have our main international news hub in the UK. The reason is that for decades and decades, the UK has been the most important place to be for, you know, as a headquarters and to be able to launch from there. So whether it's sending out reporters, crews, and the rest, the UK Bureau for CNN and all the other international news

organizations has been the main international outlet for us. Look, the United Kingdom, as you know, punched above its weight for decades and decades and decades after the fall of empire, it nonetheless had a massive role to play in the West, in the world, especially as its crucial bridge in the transatlantic alliance. And also, as we can see now in Ukraine, it does have a very important military defense role around the world as well. So I think people do care, but I think people are wondering, particularly in Europe, are wondering about Britain's place in the world now in a post-Brexit world. Yeah, I mean, isn't the truth that actually Boris Johnson was, relatively speaking, a kind of international box office figure.

And Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss, perhaps rather less so. So at the moment, we're not only not punching above our weight, we're not really punching at all. Well, again, you know, we internationally don't have the same kind of ratings as we do in the United States to measure second by second, minute by minute, which prime minister, which leader generates the most eyeballs, so to speak. Clearly, Boris Johnson, because he was described as the British Trump. And so people were able to put him in that box.

And during the time between Brexit and 2020, so between Brexit and then the Trump election several months later, the global, certainly the Western wave of populist nationalism that hit the world for a couple of years. Yes, somebody like Boris Johnson was a curiosity object and people and people would watch. And then, of course, it goes back to when he was mayor and all those, you know, fun things he did, like get caught on some kind of, you know, ropes and this and that. I mean, you know, he's a humorous figure and people think that he makes them laugh. So, yes, in that regard, he did, you know, secure quite a lot of eyeballs. Now it's different because, as I say, Britain has a different place in the world particularly with the United States

the US is still quite well how can I put this diplomatically cross that the British government may end up not honouring the Northern Ireland Protocol and thus punching a hole in a key American

success story because along with the United States and Britain, the Good Friday Peace Accord, along with the Northern Ireland players, is something to be treasured. And certainly the U.S. does not want to risk that and says over and over and over again, whether it's Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak, whoever might be the leader, that there will be no special relationship that includes a special trade deal and the like. And if the Northern Ireland peace agreement is at risk, and, you know, in April, it's the 25th anniversary, and it's a big deal for the US, of course.

Can I ask you about your sense of outrage, Christian, as you go through a very long and distinguished journalistic career, does it diminish as you accept that we appear to be a species of repeat offenders, really? Or does it increase with the frustration that perhaps we are? Do you find that you get more cynical or less cynical? Hi, Fi, it's good to see you as well. Yes, very nice to see you too. I've never been cynical, Fi, I hate to say that. But if I was a cynic, I don't think I could do my job in the way that I feel I need to do my job, which is to go out and tell the stories and be the eyes and ears of people who can't actually travel or don't want to travel, obviously, to some of these, you know, let's face it, godforsaken parts of the world that need their stories told, that need the human story, you know, told, whether it's women in

Afghanistan or Iran, whether it's civilians in Ukraine who are being pounded by an illegal invasion by a much, much bigger neighbor, Russia, all of those stories, whether it's the climate, whatever it might be, I cannot afford, nor is it in my character to be a cynic, because if I was, I think I might have given up a long time ago, because you rightly say that I actually have witnessed, along with many of my colleagues from around the world, some of the most inhuman and inhumane actions that people can do to each other. And that does actually still, I have to say, surprise me. You know, there's this question that often gets posed at the back of magazines. Are you surprised by how much harm, evil, poverty, you know, abuse there is in the world? Or are you

surprised that you think it shouldn't exist. I really believe that in 2022, there literally is almost no excuse for what we're seeing right now. There is no excuse under international law for what Russia has done to Ukraine. I mean, none, none, none, none. There's no excuse under international law or our presumably, hopefully developed civilization

for the way women are treated, not just in Afghanistan and Iran and elsewhere, but even here in the UK. You know, the rapes, the domestic abuse, the mental health crises, all of that kind of thing. But can I ask you this, Christiane? So do you not think, though, that we do our viewers and listeners and readers a disservice by not sharing some sense of that outrage at the moment? Well, who doesn't share it? I mean, I share it when I report. I report the facts and I report with the due feelings and passion that any story deserves. feelings and passion that any story deserves. And I think we share it. You're doing it, presumably, on your wonderful new show. You did it in your previous one. Other journalists are doing it. Yeah, no, I think we're showing the passion.

Christiane Amanpour of CNN is our guest this afternoon. Christiane, many people will know that you are half Iranian. You spent part of your childhood in Iran, then were educated, perhaps quite confusingly for you, at Roman Catholic boarding schools in England, where I know you ate a lot of pilchards. But can we talk about Iran? News in The Times today, the headline is, Show remorse and you'll be pardoned, Iran protesters are told.

What do you understand is going on? What is the game plan of the Iranian government? Well, as far as I can tell, the, an enormous, really heavy, heavy weight of repression was leveled against people, protesters. There were massive arrests. I mean, at one point, most of the people being arrested, we were told by human rights organizations, were 15, 16-year-olds. So the youth on the street was quite significant. Then you had sham trials. Then you had at least four executions. These were all designed to have a chilling effect and to get the protesters off the street. And to an extent, it appears that they have been successful because the protests, as they were back in September and for many, many weeks, the protests, as they were back in September and for many, many weeks, have dwindled somewhat, although there's still a lot of resistance to the regime going on in Masa Amini's home region, which is the Kurdish part of Iran, and in other parts. And there's many protests that are happening in different ways, but it's not the same as it was over the last several weeks and months. So I think

what the regime is trying to do is number one, survive. And number two, figure out where to let out some air to try to deflate the anger and the anxiety and where to keep the lid on. And I think that's what it looks like they're trying to do right now. Many people listening will recall the incident when you were due to interview the Iranian president and his people came to you and said, although it wasn't in Iran, that they would prefer it if you wore a headscarf. You said you wouldn't. And the interview didn't happen. Is there any part of you that regrets your decision not to wear the headscarf and just go along with it? Jane, absolutely not. I mean, it came to me in 15 seconds, actually less.

They didn't say it would be nice and they would prefer it. They said, unless you wear the headscarf, you know, the president won't be sitting down with you. And this was just thrown at me at the last minute. We had spent a long time securing this exclusive interview. thrown at me at the last minute. We had spent a long time securing this exclusive interview. Obviously, it was going to be super important and a big exclusive because Masa Amini now had died, had been killed, essentially, in police custody. So there was something big to ask him and to get him to explain this activity and to see whether the regime would pull back from this kind of violation of human rights. Anyway, many, many political and other questions. But I have interviewed almost every single Iranian

president since the early 90s. And whenever I do so outside of Iran, I never would and I've never been asked to wear a scarf. It is not the law of the land outside Iran. It is inside Iran. So when we work inside Iran, you'll see most journalists, well, all Western journalists, wear some kind of head covering. So when they asked me to do that, I said no. And then they said, well, you won't get the interview. So I said, well, sorry, but the answer is still no. I gave them the reasons why we should do the interview and how it was an unprecedented request by them or demand. And I really was standing up for a journalistic principle.

The first was we belong to an independent news organization and there are no rules or laws in the United States that would require anybody to have to do what they were asking. And number two, that I wasn't going to be told what to do in the United States, Europe, wherever it might be by a foreign government. It just, I wasn't going to accept that. And I quickly told my bosses, I said, I'm about to unfortunately have this interview pulled. But this is the reason. And they backed me. And there was no question I was not going to do what they asked me to do. What would you have asked him if you had been right in front of him wearing a headscarf or not? You know, I would have asked him the questions you would have asked him.

asked him the questions you would have asked him. I would have been very, very strong and tough on the idea of a young woman who was clearly wearing a headscarf, was clearly wearing an overgarment, and that was taken in, and we know that she was roughed up, there were pictures, and we know the story. And I would have asked him, you know, to explain all that and to try to get him to pull back from that. And then there were other questions, of course, there was the Iran nuclear deal. There were all sorts of other questions. Now, I know there are many, many people who believe that there is no difference between, you know, any of these Iranian leaders. And in general, on a big sense, there isn't. But under some of the regimes, the leaders who call themselves reformers, the previous one, Rouhani, two before that, Khatami,

the rules on women were much, much, much more relaxed. that, Khatami, the rules on women were much, much, much more relaxed. And under Ahmadinejad, but especially under this guy Raisi, he used women's rights, a woman's body, let's face it, as a political platform. He decided to run a very tough campaign for president, by the way, was the only candidate, based on what he said was going to be very, very tough rules for women and in general in the social space. So he takes the blame for this. I mean, you know, this is what he said. And I think you could lay what happened, you know, at his feet. And I think you could lay what happened, you know, at his feet. You've interviewed so many people, Christian, over the years.

Who's the one that's got away? Oh, gosh, rather too many have got away. Vladimir Putin's got away. There are many, many people who I'd like to interview and maybe not huge, massive names, although Putin is a big, massive name because there's a big, massive story going on right now. And he hasn't given any interviews. So, you know, it would have been lovely to interview Her Majesty the Queen, but that was never going to happen. Oh, that's a good one. What would your opening question have been? I don't know. I would have to ask you, Fi. God, there are so many questions I would have liked to ask the Queen.

Particularly right now. Yeah, I would have started with one, actually, about her feeling about her family, just about being a mum, about being a grandmother, about that very personal side of her life. And obviously she wouldn't have answered, but I would have given it a good shot, I think,

as would you, I suppose. That would have been the best one to ask. You're absolutely right. Christiane Amanpour, we know you've got to go, but really, really quickly, what has been, as far as you know so far, the single biggest news story of your life? It would have to be covering the war in Bosnia, because it was my very first war where it was war against civilians. And it was the first war where it was war against civilians. And it was the first war that it was absolutely deliberately targeting civilians in order to create a political result, which was to try to cleanse territory and purify territory. That is what the Bosnian Serbs, backed by Slobodan Milosevic, backed by Russia were doing.

And it was a huge, you know, it was a genocide in Europe. And it was the first since the Second World War. And it was my first on the ground war, except, you know, the first Gulf War. But it taught me everything I know about my profession and personally as well. I learned so much from there. And I'm now covering Ukraine, see the same pattern. One big, tough leader thinks that he can invade another country, cleanse an area, claim it for himself, annex it, and in the meantime, also commit terrible, terrible war crimes. And so I feel there's a real parallel between what happened in the 90s in Europe to what's happening in the 2020s in Europe. And I would say that was my most important story for that reason. That is the hugely impressive Christiane Amanpour,

CNN's chief international anchor. And I think she was one of those women that you used to look up to, wasn't she? Oh, I thought, I mean, I still think she's amazing. And I just remember seeing her and she really did stand out. I mean, in the early 1990s as being an incredibly bold and assertive and clever female reporter. And I just remember seeing her at press conferences. So I suppose it would have been when she was reporting from the former Yugoslavia and also when she was based in America. And sometimes, you know, the camera would pan around a press conference

and she'd be one of very few women there. And she was just always so, I mean, she still is. She's just got a confidence about her that's not arrogance. So, you know, sometimes there's an element of the puffery about some of our colleagues in the television world of reporting I mean there just is and sometimes I think in war reporting there can be something I don't know it's not it's not grandstanding but uh but it's definitely, you know, there's stuff being delivered by someone who really knows their place in the world.

And I've always thought that she doesn't take that with her. Is that a kind way of saying she's not at all pompous? And sometimes people can be. So, yeah, I really admire her. Yes. Do you know, I have watched, we were talking last week on our programme about Shamima Begum. Do you know, I have watched, we were talking last week on our programme about Shamima Begum.

And we interviewed Josh Baker, who's made the BBC podcast series about Shamima Begum. It's called I'm Not a Monster. And there is now a TV documentary, which is going out tomorrow night. I've seen a preview. And what is very interesting, I would like to see or hear Christiane Amanpour interviewing Shamima Begum, who is what she did was to most people's. I mean, it's unbelievable to think that you would walk out of a secure home and a secure life in London, not without its challenges. And but you would leave that behind to join the absolutely vile so-called Islamic State. absolutely vile so-called Islamic State. But some of the times that she is interviewed,

you do feel that the men interviewing, and I've only seen men interviewing her in this documentary, they treat her in a way that I don't think a woman would. In what way? I just thought there was a real aggression in the interviewing that I don't think served the purpose terribly well and actually didn't. On one occasion, she was interviewed by a British journalist in a refugee camp, 48 hours after giving birth. And she was visibly, she was a child. And, you know, what she did was

ridiculous, and I'm not in any way going to defend it. And Islamic State carried out some brutal and devastating and hideous attacks on innocent people in defend it. And Islamic State carried out some brutal and devastating and hideous attacks on innocent people in this country and indeed the Yazidi people, for example. They're awful people. But sometimes it doesn't help to interview, because I do think that Shamima Began was a victim. I mean, the idea that she was married in any sense

that we fully understand it, to an Islamic State fighter is just ridiculous. And he was an abusive man, and she was pregnant five times, and all three of her children have died. And I think it would be fair to say, because sometimes I find that distinction between male and female,

you know, people doing jobs, difficult actually, because it's, oh, it can disguise bad practice on both sides, can't it? But I do think in terms of war reporting, some of the finest war reporting has been done by women simply because they have access to women in war who can't tell their stories to men. And that's very true in, you know in lots of parts of the world now. The interviews that Lisa Doucette can get are just different to the interviews that John Simpson would have been able to get because he wouldn't have been able to talk to women and young girls at all.

So, yeah, I think it's a very, very valuable job to do. And I admire Christiane enormously. And you're right, I'd like to see her interview Shamila Babin. I'd also, I very, very valuable job to do. And I admire Christiane enormously. And you're right, I'd like to see her interview Shamila. I'd also, I mean, she herself says that Putin has so far got away, but that's an encounter I'd like to hear and see. But she's hugely impressive and continues to do valiant work on CNN every day. But from London, she lives in London, and that's where her show comes from. Although she says London

apparently is no longer the centre of the world. It was news to us. She's wrong there. She's a very lovely woman. Writes about a lot of things, but she's very, very wrong there. What would your first question be to Putin? This is a real silence. I genuinely think... Beyond what on earth are you trying to

achieve? I'm not really sure. What would you say? I think I'd ask him if he is a man of faith beyond what on earth are you trying to achieve? I'm not really sure. What would you say? I think I'd ask him, if he is a man of faith, what on earth does he think that his own afterlife is going to look like? In other words, well, you know what I'm saying. Do you really think you're securing your place in heaven, mate? Yes, I think that's a very real possibility. Well, it's Monday night, and Monday's the night where I watch Vera.

So I need to get back now because it's a two hour thing and I haven't got time to linger here. Plus, you're both looking quite ill again and I'm just edging out of the door

because I don't want to get anything. And I am concerned because I did eat the chicken like you did on the canteen. OK, well, if I'm not here tomorrow, don't worry, kids.

Don't worry. The inevitable has happened. And I'm very sorry, actually, because if you're listening to this, I just had a big lump of chicken. I'm sorry if I'm making you feel a bit queasy too. Okay, well, let's be positive. Let's walk on the bright side of life And I'm sure that everything will be absolutely fine

I'll just shuffle my papers But yes, you get to your Vera Safe in the knowledge it cannot be as brutal As last night's Happy Valley No Well, actually, I really hope it isn't Right, good evening, everybody Good night

Maybe forever. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts.

And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can. Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.