Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Listen to your body, Jane! (with Mary Portas)

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

Get ready for some high level, *executive* chat as producer Rosie keeps the seat warm today. She and Jane discuss the delights of Bury St Edmunds (Suffolk tourist board - call us!), how to tackle bad manners and the glamour of a department store. Jane also talks to Queen of the high street, Mary Portas about her new book 'I Shop Therefore I am'. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Hannah Quinn and Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Right, Wednesday's edition of Offair with Jane Fee, with no fee, but she is back the week after next. We've had some cracking company this week. Evelyn, of course, who's off on another holiday. Then we had Hannah, the pride of Hartleypool. Oh, sorry, Huddersfield. Oh, God, I've got that wrong before. She's going to kill you for that.

And today it's Rosie Cutler, our executive producer. And you're from? I'm from Barry St. Edmonds in Suffolk. Is there anything? What should we know about that? Bob Hoskins was born there Yes It's got an old monastery

It's beautiful Jane But I have now actually lived in London longer than I live there That's interesting isn't it You sort of cross a point in your life In which that does become very much the truth But you visit because your mum's there isn't she My mum still lives there Yeah and I do yeah I still have

I'm really lucky I have a lot of friends from school Who still live there So I was actually there on Sunday Seeing all my gal pals And because we're talking about Well, we're talking to Mary Porter, she's our guest today. Does it have a thriving high street? Do you know what? It does, actually.

I would say there was a time probably, because what Barry is famous for, well, many things. One of the things it's famous for is it has a great market, and it used to be a big cattle market. And when my parents moved to the town in the 80s, there literally was cattle on a Saturday. Yeah. And it was kind of loud and busy.

And then that just became a kind of fruit and veg market, and you could buy, you know, batteries all sorts. And then I would say in my 20s, so, you know, about 15 years ago, there was a real lull, I'd say, where you'd go in, especially during the week, there was, you know, so Clinton cards, no disrespect to Clinton cards. But there wasn't a lot of going on. But now it's thriving again.

And, you know, a lot of my friends, their young families, it's kind of happening. There's people there every single day. There's a loads of lovely kind of artisan butchers, things like that. Wonderful. You know, but there's a Gregson. Dead animals. But artisan style.

Exactly. I was going to say there's a Woolworth, there's definitely not a war worth. They used to be. But they've got a big shopping centre now. And yeah, there's like three cinemas. Three? Yeah. Separate cinemas?

Yeah, you've got the... There's a picture house. People will be thinking, what's this? The Beres and Edmund's tourist broadcast. There's a picture house. There's a view, which is a big multiplex. And then there's also an Everyman, I think. I've never been to The Everyman.

No, because it's a bit hearty, isn't it? Yeah, but it varies lovely. Oh, well, it sounds it. It really does. I have only been once. I think we did a show. there. You did. You stayed in the Angel Hotel. Yeah, and that was... It was lovely as well.

Yeah, it is nice, yeah. I do remember I had a very good breakfast there. Mind you, I've yet to have a bad breakfast in a hotel in all honesty. Fee always looks in absolute consternation at the fact that I can eat. Pork and hen produced products at breakfast, but I love it. I do

love a hotel breakfast. When we went to, when we were in North Berwick last year, yes. Unfortunately, we didn't get to go this year. But last year when we went, I do remember at breakfast, it kind of went in order of, you had a very big breakfast. I think I was just somewhere underneath that. Fee then had something very normal

and young Evelyn didn't eat at all. No. She's had a coffee. Well, I'm very... I don't approve of not eating. I think... I certainly don't... What I mean is you should eat breakfast.

I'm one of those people. I can't leave the house without eating something. I don't really understand people who can, but I know we're all different. I actually just... No, I've seen you. You sometimes have your breakfast at 11.30. I just had it because I wanted to actually be a bit...

because I am better when I've had breakfast. Well, I should think you are. But I do, yeah, but sometimes I'm just honestly just not hungry. I just really listen to my body, Jane. Sometimes I'm hungry, sometimes I'm not. Okay, right. Listen to your body. I think that's probably a different podcast, isn't it?

It'll never be one I've said. Mary Portus has written a memoir. Well, I was going to say, I think maybe she's written a memoir. This is a collection of her musings. And actually, it's quite topical because it's about, largely about her experience in the 90s at Harvey Nichols, which was never called Harvey Nix until, I think, it was called Harvey Nix in absolutely fabulous.

Anyway, I can ask Mary about that. But the shop, Harvey Nichols, has just been bought by Mike Ashley. I think a man who some people might describe as somewhat bumpious. He's the man from Sports Direct, but he knows retail. And what is he going to do with Harvey Nichols? Well, we can ask Mary all about that. And indeed, we'll hear some of her memory. of what life was like.

You don't remember the 1990s, do you? Well, actually, Jane, I have an anecdote. Here we go. This is not one of my anecdotes because you've heard all those before. This is what of Rosie's. It's not really an anecdote. It's actually just a memory.

So my stepmother lived in London and we used, when I was a child. So on the odd weekend from Berry St Edmonds, we used to drive down here. We used to go out for the weekend and I do remember she took us for lunch at Harvey Nix and I do just remember feeling like, oh my goodness, this is so glamorous.

and I really, I thought that's just what London would be like. And then I moved to when I was 18 and it just really, you know, I was living in the ars end of nowhere. But by the way, you can't get anywhere in the ars end of nowhere for less than half a million quid. It's true, it's true. Let's just be honest about it. But yeah, I just thought my life would be kind of glamorous lunches at Harvey Nix. But it didn't, it wasn't.

But that was a great memory and I really loved it. So yeah, I do remember that kind of glitz and glamour of that time. It was very much, and I think remains, a destination store. I do know it has problems at the moment and again we can hear about them from Mary and talk about those retail issues a little bit later but yeah you're right it was a place where when you went through the doors

you felt something might be happening I've got a soft spot too but I think Selfridges is like that I think if you I mean I and also the art of window dressing to be a good window dresser and Mary was fabulous at it that's an astonishing art form I think

and I'm so jealous of the skill set there Yeah self-ridges is yeah I just talk about that kind of tingly feeling. It's a retail tingle. Christmas as well in those places is really great. Apparently they were planning for Christmas weeks ago. So Christmas... Well, as Christmas in July is the big thing, isn't it?

That's the big thing. It's completely in the bag. Christmas 2026. It doesn't bear thinking about it. We don't even know those trends yet, Jane. No, but we're about... We don't know what they're going to be. We're about to discover exactly what they are.

I do remember interviewing a man who'd written a book about Gordon Selfridge, who established Selfridges, this is years ago. And it was so interesting, the social history of it. The reason that self-reaches became very popular, very quickly, with women of a certain demographic, so relatively affluent, was that, in fact, very affluent, was that it had toilets. Because until then, there were no public lose

that people could use safely, women could use safely, along the high street. Yeah. Isn't that remarkable? That's crazy. You just don't think about that. Well, Fee always says that about feeling safe near John Lewis. It is that thing, isn't it, where you just know, if you're near a department store, you know, oh, yeah, I can go to the loo.

Some of the biggest arguments me and my partner ever had was during lockdown, and we'd go on walks, then I'd really need a wee. And there was nowhere to go because, you know, pubs were closed, everything was closed. And boys can just go anywhere, can't they? Well, I don't. I wish they wouldn't. Because then London wouldn't stink of urine all the time, which it always does, particularly don't talk to me about the heat wave. There are listeners to this podcast.

It might be hard to believe. And some of them are emails. We're very, very grateful. So Mary Porter's coming up relatively soon because I know we've got to evacuate the studio for somebody more important than us. Hard to believe, isn't it? We always welcome emails from Brenda in Crumlin

and she just wanted to say, I really wanted to agree with your correspondent about the amazing flower in Belfast at the start of this month. Such a festival of Irish music, dance and singing, people from all over the island and indeed the world. As someone who has talked to you before and emailed before about the horrible race riots and 30 years of bombing and security searches

and death in my native city. It was so emotional to wander the streets and see the hordes enjoying impromptu performances, people of all ages, from the youngest of children, up to old men, playing music, singing and dancing in such a joyful manner. It made me so proud of Belfast and hopeful for the future in this troubled world.

Brenda, lovely to hear from you. Thank you very much. I just don't understand why we haven't, I just didn't know until we got, our earlier email about the flower and about how successful it had been and how significant it was that that traditional Irish music festival

was held in Belfast for the first time. Standards has been something we've talked about on the podcast this week and Susie who describes herself as on a train from Washington, D.C. Back to home in New York. Listening to Jane and her shushing of the loud man

by the pool. Are you aware of this incident, Rosie? I am, yes. It's an international incident. Well, only in the sense that it happened abroad, the man involved, sadly, I regret to tell you, was British. I have encountered somebody clipping their nails around the pool in Skiathos. For God's sake. We all do it. Don't do it by the pool.

And another time, somebody plucked their bikini line with tweezers in Sicily. Thank you, Susie. I mean, that is Sicily. And we don't know the nationality of... any of those individuals. I would like to believe that they weren't British, but of course, we certainly can't be certain about it. Because we're so well-behaved aboard usually, aren't we, the Brits? My goodness, yes. We never, ever do anything. Another Susie, this Susie is in North Yorkshire. She says she just can't abide bad manners, and she will always intervene

when appropriate. Susie, you are now me, I am you, we are neighbourhood Nellys. In a store in about the year 2000 with my husband and two teenage sons, we were waiting to be served by a young woman who was just chatting away on the landline. I mean, that slightly dates the anecdote. Anyway, I asked if she could possibly help us. She said she would in a minute, but just carried on talking to a friend. Well, I reached over the counter and pushed the useful hang-up button. Now, that's proactive. She did look shocked and said, oh, and I said, no. No. No, not in a minute. Now, this is your job. My husband and my boys were hiding,

and later my elder son said I was just so embarrassing, but I didn't care, and I still don't. I called out a woman just after COVID, because she didn't say please or thank you to the lady and greggs. She then apologised to me and to the lady's server. If people call rudeness out, maybe the world would become more polite. You've been silenced by that, haven't you? Well, I was just thinking would I get involved, do I?

Yeah, I can be a bit mouthy sometimes, as you can imagine. But I... Can we just say, Rosie's reputation in the working environment is... I mean, you like a chat. And there's nothing wrong. It's the best thing about coming to work. Oh, my God. It's one of the good things about coming to work, certainly here, yeah.

Other than the tireless journalism that we do, obviously. Yeah, but let's just own the fact that we all like a chat on our team. Yes, we do. And it's good. Bought us all together. It has. But do you intervene, this is what I was going to ask. Do you intervene every time, Jane?

Do you ever think, are you ever concerned for your safety? Well, let's bring in another emailer. Let's go for it. Denzel in Belgium. I was wondering about a reason why younger people might be reluctant to speak up. Perhaps they aren't necessarily more passive than previous generations. Perhaps they've simply become more conscious of the possibility that challenging a stranger can provoke an unpleasant reaction.

These days, you just don't know how someone's going to respond when you tell them their behaviour is unacceptable. So perhaps there's a simple rule of thumb, this is to your point, assess the environment before you assess the behaviour. If you're somewhere very public with lots of other people around also being disturbed, such as Jane's Hotel Pool, then if you feel comfortable doing so, speaking up seems perfectly reasonable. If the person becomes aggressive, you've got lots of witnesses and potential helpers. That's pretty clear, isn't it? But if you're relatively isolated with just you and the offending person, for example, a dentistry,

waiting room, and there are only two patients, perhaps discretion is the better part of valour. You might simply have to sit there silently fuming while wondering why the universe has chosen to test you in this particular way. I love the idea of someone getting so annoyed in a dentist waiting room. I'm normally too nervous to get annoyed with anybody. But yeah, thank you, Denzel. Can I say a beautifully worded email. And, oh yes, Susie, another Susie. We've had a plethora of Susie's. Thank you all. Susie went to Calfaonia for ten days after breast cancer, so had to rest. I hope you're very much on the men now, Susie.

She took all five of the Castellate Chronicles, read them. I've been raving about the Catat Chronicles. She read them and then left them in a really lovely cafe. I just put my number and my name in the front of the books, and I had three thank yous from people who'd read them and then pass them on. Isn't that a lovely idea? Wow, that's really nice. Yeah, that is such a thoughtful thing to do.

So what brilliant books to find, because usually you just find absolute dross, don't you? Yeah, well, you do, but sometimes I, I don't know, you can find, I mean, let's not mention the authors that we always find in, what was 30 shades of grey? How many shades of grey was it? They're about 50, I think. See, I only got up to, I only got to page 38,

so I only got to 30. 38 shades of grey. Yeah, was it 50? 50 shades of grey, yeah. Was it really? I was just going to look that up, but I think it was, yeah. Yes, a lot of shades. This is from, we'll anonymise this one

because it's a common experience, but we don't want to heap anymore on this set of circumstances, but so many people will be going through this. First time emailer here. We just moved back to London after 20 years of living overseas, most recently 12 years in California.

So quite a lot of thoughts on emergency. She says. Our middle child came back to the UK to go to university. He did what he thought was the right thing. He got a decent law degree from a well-known university in the south-west and all the costs that went with that. He has now applied for almost 200 jobs in law and business, as well as any part-time temporary work he could find. I know his story is a familiar one, but what stands out for me is the lack of kindness from recruiters when kids are essentially applying for their first so-called big job. There's no feedback or in most cases any acknowledgement or of even the application. Trying to keep him motivated is now a daily task. He has picked up some

bar work but he's so disheartened and wonders why he even bothered slogging away for three years. I just make a plea that if any of your lovely listeners are in HR and dealing with graduates or any applicants, please at least thank them for their interest. and wish them well. Throw them some encouraging words even. We all know it's tough out there, but that doesn't prevent people from recognising that there is a real person on the other end of that application. And kindness costs nothing. My heart breaks for all these kids who genuinely want to go to work and get on with the next chapter of their lives. Anonymous, thank you for that. Again, beautifully expressed, I feel for you, I feel for your son. I know it's no fun at all

when someone in your life is honestly battling away and having an evening meal for example and going to their room if they're lucky enough to have one of their own and then just slogging away for hours on end looking at stuff sending off your CV. It was different. I know you're much younger than me, Rosie, but it was different, wasn't it, 10, 15 years ago?

Yeah, although I also went through a very difficult time after university. I didn't do a degree that was as focused as something like law. I did American studies. Sorry, what? American studies. Yes. It came with a year abroad in California, so I don't know what the appeal was. How bad was that?

Yeah, terrible. Whereabouts in California, did you go? In Santa Cruz, Northern California. Okay. How good was it? It was the best time of my life, yeah. Honest response. Yeah, it was really, really good.

But I came out of university, and I just, because I have siblings, they're a lot older than me, and they really did kind of walk out with humanities degrees and just walk into jobs. They just did really great jobs. It was easy. Oh, you have a degree from Roll Holloway, great.

And I didn't realize I don't think that the world had changed. My peers did and they did internships. I also couldn't really afford to do that. So I got a job in a shop. And actually, my advice would be, I had a mild interest in fashion. I worked in a shop. And for the two years that I was there, two or three years,

I made it, I tried to kind of get as much out of it as I could and I actually did end up working abroad for them and I knew deep down it wasn't really what I wanted to do No, but you were working. But I was working, yeah, I was working in retail. I mean, I was paid absolutely nothing. I think I got paid about £800 a month, which in London is, I mean, you can't even get a room for that now

but this was back in 2010. So, yeah, but I definitely went through that feeling of God, why does I even do a degree? What's the point of this? Which I'm sure that young man is feeling too. Oh, God, I wouldn't blame him at all for thinking of that. So I think you just try and, yeah, I mean, if you don't have a job at all, then it's really difficult. I tried to make the most of what I had.

And then I was just very lucky and shadowed a friend and she worked in radio. And I thought, I had done a bit of radio at university. And I just thought, oh, this is brilliant. And I went back and did a master's. But yeah, I can't imagine what it must be like to do a degree that is so focused and not be able to find a job. I kind of felt it was my own fault because I just did a kind of whimsical thing. That's okay. You had a whimsical year in Sanctrine.

But it got me here. And look where you are now. But look, there will be lots of people in a similar position to our correspondent or they could be in the position of the correspondent's son and just feeling that it's not been worth it. And life can be bloody cruel. I think your 20s are tough, actually.

Super tough. I think uni gives you a bit of a false sense that it's all fun and games. But then it isn't. I think for me as well, I felt a real pressure to kind of start my quote-unquote real life and that I should be getting this kind of the big job, the wonder job.

And truly my life didn't, in that sense, if that's what you judge it on, my life didn't really begin until I was in my 30s. Turning 30 was the, I love my 30s much more than my 20s. I found my 20s really, really hard. And yeah, there was a lot of pressure. And, you know, you don't realize in your 20s such a long life to lead. And you're going to be working for a long time.

So if you can try and just get, you know, You don't have to be a high-powered executive by the time you're 24. The pressure, you do tend to measure yourself against your peers, don't you? And some of them, and because life isn't fair and not everybody progresses at the same pace, some people do seem to be shooting ahead of you.

Oh, they do? And that's because some of them are. Yeah. But you don't know what lies in store for them 10, 15 years down the line. You never know. And you don't know what could happen to you either. But I'd be really interested to hear from recruiters

about, I know they're busy, I get it. But the lack of response because it certainly happened to my children. It's so bloody miserable because you just feel that there's no one out there paying any attention to you. Can't you just send something back? I know it's all AI that initially perhaps looks over the CVs.

That's even more depressing. And is it, this is a question from me really, is it better to be doing any job in order to get your so-called first big job than no job at all? So is it better to be working in a pub and I'm not in any way dissing that or working in a cafe or

doing something that you definitely wouldn't choose to do and that you're considered to be overqualified for is that better than sitting at home and just applying for 15, 20 jobs a day? You might find something you really love. And you might. And also I felt that my... Now I'm a bit more further along in my career,

I can actually look back to university and see the skills that I learnt then and see, oh yeah, these are transferable skills. But I think when I was 23, 24, I had no idea how to translate that and I felt like I absolutely should but I didn't know how to do it it was just very cloudy to me

whereas now I can think about oh of course writing those essays definitely prepared me for the workplace but I couldn't make that and that jump does feel very easy I mean God we work with some we work with some 23 24 year olds Hannah might be one of them

who are so impressive and I absolutely could She might be one of them She is one of them Well there are many We don't have many We already had an email I don't know if you saw that.

But we can save that for her maybe for tomorrow. Oh, yes, we can. Should we be back tomorrow? But yeah, there are some young people here who just, I mean, wow, they blow me away. They are so impressive and I could not have been in a workplace and be as professional and effective as they were. I was just a child. This is what's so unfair because this cohort of people in their early 20s are vastly more accomplished than I ever was at that age. and the workplace is just not as welcoming.

I mean, in fairness, I'm a completely different generation to you. It wasn't a barrel of last trying to get a job in 1985 either. In 1987, I finally entered a radio station for the first time after two years of abject misery doing other stuff. And it's, I wish somebody had, if somebody had told me then that one day I'd be sitting, anticipating a tuna flatbread from a chain of high street, sandwich stores that had yet to be invented.

Talk about Harvey Nix. Remember when Pratt came to the UK? I do remember when Pratt came. Wow! Because I think that one of the first branches of Pratt was in Islington where I was living when I first came to London. And they used to do this, I shouldn't admit, why I'm this stuck in my head. But they did this beef and horseradish sandwich. I still think about that. I remember that, yeah.

They had one in Cambridge. We used to go especially sometimes. Well, not especially, but it was a perk of the day. Yeah, people won't believe there was a life before Pratt. But it was barely an existence, to be perfectly honest with you. A few people have commented about, Gabby Roslin's volume. Was the volume out of alignment? Were the settings out of alignment on Gabby Roslin?

I don't know. Anyway, I couldn't say. Angela says, Gabby doesn't usually make me jump out of my skin every time she speaks, but I was listening in the wee small hours because I had insomnia. Oh, Angela, sorry to hear about that. Gabby was our guest yesterday. We were in a slightly, recording that interview,

we were in a slightly different location. Oh, yes, we were. So I think that that has probably something to do. I do apologise because we have over the years had some interactions about levels but we're generally okay now

oh yes no Gabby's a good woman and she was talking about her show The Joy of Pets and of course as we all know many listeners to offer take joy in their pets just a little update on Dora

she did go to the vets yesterday my youngest daughter took her and you'll be delighted to hear Rosie she's in good neck I mean it is important yeah well could you look a bit more thrilled. You just look bored shitless, fracking. I don't have any bets. No. Well,

you should have. And she also had a claws done and so actually when she sat on my knee last night, it was pleasurable. For the first time in five years. If I'm honest with you, we ought to have done that a long time ago. At least she got hers done in a vet and not by the side of a pool in Sicily. Well, exactly. I mean, even the cats got higher standards than some of these people by the sides of pools.

And as, by the way, for using tweezers on your bikini line, I never want to think. Self-harm, I think. Angela also says, I'd never heard of anybody being allergic to animal spit, which was something that Gabby said yesterday. Gabby Rosny loves animals. She can't have cats or dogs because her husband is allergic to cat and dog saliva. It was a new one on me as well, but Angela says she's off to chat GPT it.

Well, Andrew, if you have got a moment, you can always get back to us on that. Do let us know what you discovered. And just a quick question from Heather, who's in Orange, North, is it NSW Australia? Would that be New South Wales? God I'm being thick. New South Wales, Australia. Heather, you're very welcome to the pod. Jane's question yesterday to Hannah about what nursing homes of the future might be like, given young Hannah's multi-audio tendencies, did strike a chord with me. My dad is currently getting great care in a nursing home with lots of family visits and support. While he cannot navigate remote controls, he can still send text messages. Is my generation, this is such a good question, is my generation the first,

us to receive a daily string of text messages from a parent whose moods fluctuate wildly and has cognitive impairment. We're in no way laughing at that situation because it's, I mean, and I should say, Heather, I have mentioned before, my dad is now in a care home. This stuff is very real to many people of my generation. I do think you raise a really interesting question there because these people, my dad does WhatsApp. He doesn't have cognitive impairment, I should say, he's been very fortunate. But, you know, it's not easy to adjust to life in a care home. And inevitably, there are ups and downs. There are good days and there are not so good days. And we as a generation, people in the 50s and 60s now are part of this. We are hearing from our parents who are

able to communicate and keep us fully up to date with everything going on in their world. And I can't deny it, Heather, I'm with you. It's quite strange. Heather does say dad's current level of concern is his nipples. He's experienced pain in them and sends me regular updates as to the level of pain. And again, we're not laughing at this at all. For my own sanity, I've decided not to respond to his text today, although he has already alerted me to his dangerously low level of his preferred lip balm. So he said, two left and then I will die. Right. Shout out to all the adult children wrestling with the best way to support ageing parents. Heather, I absolutely hear you, and I suspect many other people will as well. And just to emphasise, we are not in any way

laughing at the plight that Heather's father finds himself in, or indeed anybody who's in a care home, because let's be honest, it's the best that any of us can hope for. But there is no doubt that period of life comes with challenges for all, comes with challenges for all involved. I think that's clear and I would welcome more correspondence on that subject. Jane and Fee at times.radio. So I'm going to do a little bit of filling while our guest who has now arrived gets her breath back. She is Mary Portus. She's always well worth hearing from.

She's got a new book out called A Shop, Therefore I Am, the 90s, Harvey Nicks and me. Harvey Nicks is Harvey Nichols, of course, the well-known Knightsbridge department store. Is this enough waffle? Yeah, yeah. I think I've got the story. I've been 17 flights.

I've got my breath back now, Jane. We're fine. We're fine. Right. Okay, we should just say that the lifts in this building, in a glamorous location, very close to London's scintillating London Bridge, just not working. So you're a fit woman, but it was tough, wasn't it? Well, it was 17 flights.

Yes, I'm sorry. Everybody slowly peeled off going along on the third or the fourth or the fifth, and your lovely little runner was going, it's only a few more, and I said, just tell me the number. 17 flights. And are you in heels, or have you got your train as well? No, no, no, no, I've got it. I'll turk these on, a little sandals.

Oh, right. Not in heels. I don't wear heels much at all now. Oh, right. Okay, well, we can talk about that. We need to talk about Harvey Nichols because you were there in, well, would you say that you were there during the glory years of Harvey Nichols? Or did you create the glory years? A bit of both, I think. Well, no, because there's always a great team.

Yes, I went in when it was lost making and left when it was, you know, pretty large global business. So it was 10 years and exciting and wonderful. from this one store in Knightsbridge. And of course you have to remember then, Jane. This was well before the internet people were buying online. So destinations for boutiques and stores were so vital. You just had to make these places, places of real magnetism.

Yeah, so I left when I set up my own business in 2007. Oh my God, 2007. So Mike Ashley of Sports Direct is now the man who owns Harvey Nichols. And are not just in Knightsbridge anymore. There are branches elsewhere in the country. What do you think of the Harvey Nichols, Mike Ashley, link up? Are some people a little bit snooty about it, do you think? Yeah, you know, the thing is,

there's part of me that kind of loves the idea that this guy has created such wealth, you know, and is British and is buying this British institution. And he's an employer. And he's an employer. So I kind of think, you know, let's just watch and see here. And it's a really tricky time because we're up against so much. And it's not as if I was in Liberty the other day

and it was buzzing. but it's right in the heart sort of Soho near Oxford Street. It's just off Oxford Street, yeah. And you've got nights, but you've got to have, what reason do people want to come? And that's the big question, I guess he needs to ask himself. Well, let's just see. What would you do to Harvey Nichols?

I knew you were going to do this. I'm not the most original broadcaster, but carry on. Well, I think there's a big thing that I, whenever I work with clients and where they have a lot of physical retail, I always say, what can't Amazon do? what can the digital world not do? And I think first of all, I would be looking at all the space

and creating destinations that are extraordinarily, wonderfully, luxurious for women particularly. And I think they did start that to an extent like putting Pilates studios on there and having these beautiful spaces growing the well-being. But I would also open up a whole floor

completely of recycling, upcycling, trading floor for young people. So getting all those young Gen Zs in who can trade. their own clothes, that's becoming such a growth market. Secondhand and vintage is exponentially growing. I mean, it came from a very low threshold, but it's growing faster than fast fashion. Hooray. So I would do something that becomes this destination where they have to come where these drops are and creates a destination. That's one of the ideas. And then I'd be looking at

social spaces that are absolutely not what you can do online. And that can be an absolute mix of stuff. When I was doing research on Gen Z, nearly eight. 80% Gen Z's saying we would love to meet in physical spaces. Because that generation, they're the digital world. They didn't know. That's why they're all loving the 90s. The 90s was the last time to them where they felt, my God, that was joyful. Wasn't that great?

And wasn't that fun? So I'd be looking at how I get those two groups. I'd be looking at the youth. And then I'd be looking at the women with the money. So has Mr. Ashley been on the phone? No, no, no. But if he were to... Well, would you go back?

Would you go back to Harvey Nichols? No, I'd never go back. there but I would certainly give advice on what I do. Okay. I'm interested in the fact that you mentioned destination and some people are I don't know, they're a bit, they're a bit snobbish about shopping actually and about

the pleasure that lots of people, including me, get from a little bit of, the retail therapy thing, is real, isn't it? I can be given a certain amount of pep in my step if I go out and buy a nice new shirt and a book I've wanted for a long time. What's wrong with that? Some people are rude about it.

Well, there's nothing wrong with it, but I think what, the reason I called the book I shop, therefore I am, is, and I think people are rude about it, because it seems like we don't, we're not conscious if we become these, oh, I'm just popping out. I mean, we've really moved on from when the going gets tough to tough go shopping, that sort of era of the 80s and 90s where, you know, when I was at Harvey Nichols, you had no idea what the impact of what you were doing. Now we do know. And so I think when it's done with a knowledge and a consciousness, it can be really joyful. But the reason I called the book I shopped there for a

Barbara Kruger did this whole campaign that she put in the serpentine, and it was all an indictment. The Serpentine Gallery. Yeah, the Serpentine Gallery. We might be a bit London centric here. Yeah, sorry about that. It's 17 steps that I had to go up 17 flights. But anyway, she talked about consumerism had become, it defined us. And it did. It did what we owned and what we bought. For those particular 20 years, I think 80s, 90s, 90s and 90s, 30. There was this real eye, I shop, therefore I am. That was what she put up And it was absolutely an indictment on the way we were living. We've come out of that now. And so therefore, I think we can And we need to have high streets. We need to have shops. We need this in our lives.

We'll talk about the high street in a moment. But let's just talk about the very, very rich people that you encountered in your time at Harvey Nichols. Now, I've written this down because this is a bit from the book that really stuck with me. The customers I saw swanning into Antonella's VIP dressing room were on another level. Personal shoppers taking them through previews of collections.

champagne at 10 in the morning, a driver to whisk them home when they were trollied by lunchtime. Did you like these people? They sound horrible, Mary. They're awful people, aren't they? It was a complete different world than I'd ever been in.

You know, I was a working-class kid who'd come from Topshop as display manager. I was living in a little bed sit, in Manor House, and I used to get the bus in, and I just never knew. I mean, now you see how people, you could just have to look on any social media and you see how people live.

I had not experienced this. And at first I found it, I felt completely outside it, because don't forget, this was the time of the Sloan Rangers as well. And they used to literally pull up and all dressed like Lady Diana with little ruffles and pearls and those headbands. And it seems crazy that you can really define that era by that look. And it was, if people had money, they bought luxury. That didn't stop, that didn't change until when brands became,

that, you know, really fuelled in the late 80s and 90s. So these people had lives, you know, they were driving, get the driver to take them, but they lived within a five-mile radius of the store. They could have got the bus. They weren't on the bus with me, Jane, that's for sure. No, absolutely not. The window dressing is something that is, I think, such an underrated art form.

And I mean, I'm going to say, I think the British are probably as good at it as anybody or possibly better than anybody else in the world. Tell us about your big hits when you were window. dressing at Harvey Nix. Well, I think the New Yorkers are pretty good there. Oh, never mind them. Never mind them.

But there was the two, because, no, don't forget anti-Worholl dressed windows and darlie dressed windows. I wish I'd never said that now. You see, so, no, but that was back in the 40s and 50s. Some of my best, it was just the joy of doing stuff. I mean, I loved it when I put nothing in the window and gave all the money

to charity for Christmas, and that really worked. That was just, I don't need to be here selling. I'm just going speak to people's hearts. And that was, I love that because it was an experiment. That is really a bold thing to do. And did it actually perversely bring more people into the shop and make more money for Harvey Nichols? Exactly. And they gave more to the, and donated to all the different charities we were doing. So that really showed me, because when I, when I presented that to the board, they were like, this isn't going to come on. Everyone wants, it's got to be, you know,

joyful at Christmas and abundance everywhere. And you're going to leave empty windows. You can only do that once, though, can't you? No, of course. Of course. I don't think anyone's done it since but it was enough to get front pages of the papers. And you also got front pages for Car Henge, didn't you? Yeah, Car Hens What was that? Well, there were these old dudes in the Nevada Desert who, all the cars get

dumped in the Nevada Desert when they're old and dumb and these guys who were scrap merchants who were pulling them together decided to stack them up and called it Car Henge. They looked like Stone Hedge. It was the most unbelievably surreal thing and I saw it at the White Chapel Art Gallery and I thought, I

just had this sudden moment of my windows, I've got this complete gallery that looks out onto London and I could just put art in there and it was a real breaking point for me to actually just entertain and stop people and the by-product was you put the product in and they bought. And Harvey Nichols was Harvey Nichols until it was Harvey Nicks and it was only Harvey Nicks because of absolutely fabulous. Is that correct? They used to call it Harvys. Oh, did they? Okay. The people who were there. Harvys. Right. And then Jennifer and I found out that Jennifer was doing this comedy

and I rang her and said, would you film in the store? And that's how it all happened. Oh, so you made that link. Yeah, I rang her. I rang her and she came in with Betty Jackson. Betty Jackson used to dress her. And Betty had said, I think she's doing this, this comedy, it's going to be hilarious.

And she's asking which designers to wear and whatever. And Betty was her inside knowledge. And I said, oh my God, tell her I wanted to film here. So she said, well, call her. Here she is. And so she came in. but she didn't tell me anything about the show and I just had this feeling this could be a terrible risk

or it's going to be great and I said look we're the only store everybody's talking about half in it because they weren't quite it was getting really there you know we just launched Mac we were getting the real original staff Mac the makeup Mac the makeup and I had RuPaul dressed up in the window in drag and and I said everybody it's the London store

and she just said I don't know I don't know and I said well tell me what's about she wouldn't tell me what it was about. There's a very funny bit in the book where you watch the first episode of absolutely fabulous and you're fringing because you've no idea

what awaits you. No. Two weeks later fax me. Can you remember facts? Came through saying, I'll come in and film. And I just remember going downstairs. And the thing was,

Joanna Lumley was always this classical actress. I mean, she was purdy, she was a nice, posh girl, and suddenly I looked through the door and saw Joanna Lumley with a fag on, a bottle of bolly.

And a beehive. Yeah, I mean, has it stood the test of time, Mathab? I haven't seen it recently. People still send me bits from it. One the other day, when I was out with two big a night with friends, and they said, one they say with Patsy said, God, if a mosquito bites me now, it'll have to go into rehab. And that's still funny, right?

Yeah, that does work. So the 90s were, well, for you, there were details I just didn't get. I'd never understood this. Didn't know anything about it. Obviously, the high-end fashion world, if you were going between the fashion designers, you'd have to wear their clothes.

You couldn't have a meeting with somebody unless you were wearing their gear. So you'd be in the back of a cab in New York squeezing into a new pair of designer trousers. I mean, she's crazy. You'd turn up and you'd want those designers. So the big designers, and at that time in the States, you were talking,

Donna Karen. These were the gods, Calvin Ralph. It was Donna Calvin Ralph. Massive sales. And I guess our question, was Joseph did really well in the UK and Nicole Fari. Because really everyone thinks, you know, the spend is always with the youth. The spend is with 50 plus women.

Right. That is where the dot is, right? Yeah, but can I say, I mean, on behalf of women who aren't 5'8 and 7.5 stone, are you 5'8? Okay. Not 7. No. Well, you're not a big woman, Mary. I mean, we just need to be honest about this.

Fashion has never really felt like it was for me or the average woman. No. It still isn't. No. No. No. So what do we do about it? Nothing? Well, I don't think, actually, I've done quite a few things on that. I did the 40 plus women for the first time I sort of broke through. And so this is ridiculous. Every single campaign has 16, 17-year-olds,

who are, you know, sample size, I used to be able to get in. You know, sample sizes 8, 10, it's not that now. Is it less? It's less. So 6? Yeah, it would be a 6. Less? And you see them, I don't know how much less, I haven't tried to get into any samples lately. but it's terrible

and it is just, you've got to understand as well a lot of men at the top designing you know, that are putting these models down the catwalk. So we have... Who don't know much about or care much about women? Who don't, who would see this as beauty and drogenous and sexy

rather than that's what a real woman looks like. Look, they've moved the dial. It's nowhere near enough. And now we'll show older women, but then they go into, let's show, you know, bless her, Maggie Smith in Celine, or really famous, very old actresses who have a great sort of currency because of what they've achieved.

But you don't see, as you're saying, 60, 55-year-old women who are a size 16 and... But some of whom have money to spend? They're where the money is. That's where the money is. But then there's another thing. I'm not sure people want to see... There's a wonderful line, one of my favourite lines in Chicken Run,

where she goes, my life flashed before me and it was really boring. We're coming out of jokes, I'm going to joke. And I just think, do I want to, sometimes I don't want to see completely. I just want to think I could look good in that, you know, rather than being shown exactly what I look like. I mean, you hinted that there were class issues

that Harvey Nichols, weren't though, because you were not from the same background as Antonella, who I mentioned earlier. Antonella had a job, I couldn't quite work out what her role was, but she certainly swaned around. She was, so, no, you had the head. of buying, the buying director, which was the goddess, you know. And then

Antonella ran personal shopping. So people you'd get all the movie stars going in, so she would have them. That's why she used to have when Princess Diana's in there. And you'd feel this hush in the store. You'd just literally, you know before a curtain goes up? Just like, that's, you knew she was in the store. No one else. They could be

superb Hollywood actors, but in that sort of feeling, you'd see everybody turning round. And she would usher her in and then sort of shoe everyone away, like little pigeons outside that were gagging to get a look at, you know, Princess Diana. Did you ever meet her? Many times, yeah, many times. When she was shopping there?

No, I met her a couple of times in the Caprice. In the restaurant. For people who live in London, this is gripping. For people who live in Norwich, it's not so gripping. But is that a good restaurant? And Jeremy King's overtaking, and it's still very good. Call out for him, one of our great restaurateurs. But with you lot, it was all egg white omelets, wasn't it?

It wasn't me. I always ate properly, but I used to call them the egg whites. So you do a press launch and you'd get the caterers in and they'd come and do the most exquisite food and none of the fashion press would eat it. It is actually horrible, actually, right, isn't it? There's nothing like I hate wasted food. So do I.

I used to take it back to my little, I used to take it back home. Scuttle it into a bag and take it back. Yeah, you had no shame then or now. Not at all. So can we just talk about the High Street? Because it has been one of your passions and so many people care so very much about their local High Street. They can, I mean, two things can be right.

at the same time. I care about my local high street, but I also use Amazon. Can I have it both ways? Yeah, of course you can. But I think that there's a couple of things. It's so big. You know, when I did the high street report how many years ago, 2011 I did that report. I genuinely, I got asked to do something else by Cameron's government and I said, I can't do that because I'm traveling the country filming and I'm turning up and these high streets are on their knees. And so they commissioned me to do this. And then, even their... when I did it, I could feel, although it made a lot of noise, anything you do political, you know, it makes a lot of noise. But I really don't think people had that civic pride

and understanding how important this was to their lives until COVID. And I think people woke up and went, oh my God, where can I go? Where can I meet? Where can I connect? And I think the shift, and this is why I think there's an opportunity to really regenerate high streets if Burnham gets this right. The shift that we've seen in people working, maybe, couple of days from home, being aware of that they spend less, an economic crisis where we're spending less, thinking about how they travel, we've got a huge opportunity to regenerate high streets, but it really does need policy change at central government and local government. And actually giving the powers to local government is the opposite. So very briefly, do something about

business rates? Totally do something about business rates. These people you need to give them a break to, and they aren't doing that. And we're hearing about the pub, we're cutting back this bit. We need an absolute idea that the regeneration is going to come from small entrepreneurial businesses that could be organised by the local council for the needs of the people of that town. Lovely. Thank you very much, Mary. Mary Portus, author of A Shop, Therefore I Am, the 90s, Harvey Nix and me, and she's about to start her ascent. Down 17. Down 17, for God, I mean, I don't know why I'm laughing. I've got to do it as well. Mary Portis, her book is called A Shop, Therefore.

I am, the 90s, Harvey Nix and me. It's a beautiful looking book as well. They're not all beautiful looking, but this one is gorgeous. And I just don't think there's anything wrong with the notion of retail therapy. I mean, in my case, probably more book related than clothing. But actually, can you beat the thrill, honestly, Rosie, of walking down the street, swinging a bag, containing a new top, not necessarily an expensive one, maybe a pair of earrings. Just makes you feel a little bit better, doesn't it? There's no doubt about it. Yeah, I like to buy makeup.

Yes. I'm buying a bit of makeup or something's still good. Yeah, and just illustrating the difference between us. I like to buy Epsom Bath salts. That puts a real fizz in my heart. Actually, the tragic thing is, it does. Anyway, thank you for all the emails. Thanks for being a part of this.

We're back tomorrow. Well, at least you're not, are you? But Hannah is. It will probably be Hannah tomorrow, yes. Probably. It will, yes. You're putting me on the spot. Yes, it'll be.

It's a bit of a week this week. but it should be Hannah tomorrow. Yeah, I mean, can we just acknowledge that August is very much with us? Yes. Some of us have got three days to their holiday and are just, you know. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Right. It's not just Eve. No, no. No, it's you as well. Oh my God, who's going to be here next week? I mean, they'll be here on my Todd, running the old Gaff. Yeah, Fee won't be back. Eve will be here for a bit. Hannah is here.

Hannah's actually, yeah, she's really earning her keep. The truth is, Hannah Quinn and I keep this empire. afloat. But so do you. Jane and Fee at times.com. See you tomorrow. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on.

the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.